New Macross series and/or movies please...

[ewilen]

Nathan,

Yes, M7 and M0 items are available in the US. Why? Because they are imported. HG contends that this is technically illegal, and although they haven't won a court case over it, they also haven't lost a case. Meanwhile, no one has sold M7 or M0 products licensed for US distribution.

A new Macross--whether completely new or a remake of the original series--might affect the situation by changing the stakes. If that's what you're talking about, fine. But your original comments seemed to imply that reanimating SDF Macross would have some sort of legal significance. It won't. BW has already created M+/M7/M0, which are far more distinct from SDF Macross than a reanimation would be, so any legal issues which might be addressed by a reanimation are already implicated in the case of those works.

As for the rest of your ideas, you are welcome to lobby for having the Macross universe illustrated in minute detail, but I doubt you'll find that anyone, aside from a splinter group of RPGers within the hardcore Macross fans, is interested in such a thing.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Lets not get into this gene thing again please. Unless it's been rewritten and no ones told me Zentraedi are still genetically identical to humans. If that isn't true you'd think they'd want human genes as humans are smarter and better fighters.

Almost the same if I remember. What was all that stuff in macross plus about guld surpressing his "zentreadi fighting instincts"? Has it been scientifically proven that zentreadi are more likely to cause trouble than humans?

And why did Guld say that Isamu "felt sorry for the poor zentreadi"? during the apology scene when those two had finished thier dogfight? Was it because zentreadi have a history of violence more than humans? Why would he mention his race? Why not just say he felt sorry for "Poor schizophrenic Guld"?

Another thing was the comment by the old guy to millard: "you would vouch for a zentreadi half-breed like Bowman?!" almost as if there was an assumption that Zentreadi were NOT as trustworthy compared to the more level-headed humans that wouldn't cheat because they are not itching to start a fight so much.

There's also the flashback of guld losing his temper and almost hurting Myung. Again an indication that Zentreadi must fight or hold back thier inner urges to lose thier temper, so they can adjust to human lifestyle. Almost as if behaving warlike is a disability and humans need to feel sorry for them.

You will pick these small clues up on racism and xenophobia in macross plus on repeat viewings. They are subtle but I gaurantee on further observation you will start to understand that trust between humans and zentreadi isn't as great as it would seem on the surface. On the surface we are all very politically correct and ignore that racism even exists today, but in the real world and in the back of our minds we can still sense it. (there will never be equality and some people will always have less opportunities than others, with people naturally having a tendancy to discriminate against anything that they are unfamiliar with)

Now remember Zentreadi as I understand it were genetically modified super soldiers designed solely as the warrior class for the protoculture. They are bioweapons. Most of the desired traits related to warriors would be favoured and those that are less warrior-like would be left out and then they would clone varieties based on what worked for soldiers.

The protoculture basically had thier own eugenics program to weed out the weak useless characteristics that weren't desirable in a warrior, in favour of ones that would enhance thier combat ability. So in effect they might be more fit, have more muscle mass, higher bone density (I clearly remember max mentioning this about his and millia's baby)

Also there was never any indication that humans were better fighters, just that the main chracters in the series were great pilots. (one was a dardevil test pilot who had been flying planes all his life, the other was a acrobat, and the best one was an ace ala "red baron") I'm pretty sure the average battle-hardened zents would have easily beaten the vast majority of inexperienced humans had there not been a few lucky incidents (like Hikaru having an ace on his side) to tip the balance in human's favour. The zentreadi were holding back half the time anyway. Only allowed to "play" with the humans because half the time thier superiors wanted to study them.

They could see themselves as the warrior elite and like what we have today where people still think that thier race determines superiority, (proud of themselves and wanting to be seperate from society or secretly plot to rule over them - I wil not name names) these zentreadi would convince themselves that they had to preserve thier races' bloodlines and purge human blood from the genepool. Of course this untrue doctrine is helped along by a corrupt leader who manages to make a religion out of his belief. The anti UN would ally themselves with this person and it would be a major problem for the UN. There would be other reasons for the break up of the UN (by humans who conspire against it) like people just wanting absolute control over resources which would represent a future threat to the un in the form of armies that were secretly being built up. Not everyone is going to automatically agree to be obedient. This is the nature of man. He is corrupt, rebellious, and has his own ambitions too.

The idea that adjusting to human life because peace is plain boring to a warrior class is another thing to consider. This theme was in the original series where after a time, kamjin could round up any defectors and start a rebellion. Of course, my idea is a little different. Some time has passed, the zentreadi have lived amoungst humans, (learnt thier ways, educated themselves) and after all this pent-up racial tension, along comes a charismatic leader similar to kamjin who rises up to fight for independance against the un. (like the principality of zeon in gundam but without the newtype power ) He wants to bring back the strength the zentreadi once had and promises to make a much better world if they grant him the power to fix the imbalance. This idea would appeal to all those pure blooded zentreadi who society constantly sees as too much a threat to the humans (discrimination?) and so these people allow this madman to get into power somehow.

So in summary: Even though our dna is almost identical, Zentreadi would still be more warlike because they were designed for 1 purpose and genetically altered that way. This idea of racism between the two different species is promoted in macross plus quite a lot if you know where to look. And if the zents start to think they can rule themselves independantly from what they see as some corrupt humans keeping them down, then it would be a good idea and excuse for another war imo.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but still at least I'm trying to throw some ideas out there. I just don't want another macross 7. I want something similar to saving private ryan where we are focused on a small group of soldiers and are stuck with them for the series and because they are risking thier lives, they all are reluctant to work together at first. The music would be thier morale boost and they would question themselves about why the hell they were even there, (most characters in SDF macross just got caught up in the war and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time so they wouldn't automatically care about fighting for freedom) and whether they would even survive and what thier families could be thinking.

Something a little more serious, a little more human, where the introspection leads us to an eventual solution to the problem of human-alien relations and the discrimination that will always exist by humans who are scared of the warlike zentreadi melding too much in human society out of fear they will turn against them. Just an idea from the impression I got in macross plus which I thought had the right balance of battles and character development. In macross plus, there was no need to dwell on the theme for too long, just hints that these things were within the background of the story. Things like: 1)Racial tension exists, 2)UNG doesn't give a poo about the test pilots or respect them like we are led to believe, 3)millard was a reckless youngster himself once, 4)not all singstars reach thier dreams like minmay without obstalces getting in the way of thier career, 5) Guld has fits of rage when he thinks of isamu that when combined with his zentreadi warrior instinct make him dangerous to society etc The stereo-typical characters are far from what the audience immediately expects and we grow to like them more when we see these things.

These are not things that take over from the love triangle and music theme, but they provide little bits of information lurking in the background that provides some clue/hint as to how the fictional world may really work. (if you want to get realistic) If mech battles are going to get lots of attention, I would like to see realism in characters with thier own failings and weaknesses as well. Not just "look at me. I'm invincible and kicking ass because I'm the central character who wins all the battles and gets through unscathed." With the saving private ryan idea, there would be rescue missions, struggles for control over certain areas, no help from above for a long time, there would be disagreement within the groups and cynicism and skepticism over the cause. People would be forced to create the resistance all on thier own and fight on the ground but with the odds against them all over again. It would not always be a united effort though (humans have thier own interests) and unlike the UN there would be no incentive to be on the side of the good guys since they have worse chance of winning. This inevitable war would be the very reason why global warned that the human race needed to spread itself in order to avoid extinction again, due to the disagreements man will always have with himself and our need to fight all the time like the zentreadi. That divide only allows us to be manipulated by more sinister forces and risk collapse of the central controls we have and into a slow, gradual move into anarchy. (helped along by an ambitious slightly-mad, kamjin-style character of course.)

Keep in mind: I'm not saying that the idea that zentreadi being superior to humans has to be necessarily true, just that a dictatorial evil character could propagate such a message and get sympathisers to his cause. (the mad character in fact is just trying to do what he sees as a legitimate cause) When I said it would be the counterpoint to the original tv series, I meant that characters like admiral hayes would look a lot less useless when put into a situation where the humans are in a war to survive against enslavement. The message wouln't be: "War is bad, love is good, stupid!" It would be: "Some wars have to be fought to defend against dissenting powers who will change the fate of future (more complacent) generations if left alone to have thier way for too long". The sword can be used to protect/defend as well as attack/kill. The build up of weapons and the arms race towards destruction is inevitable and can't be avoided. Just like the protoculture before us, we will always be at the risk of extinction from our own weapons and and can't do anything about it, just as in the real world.

Satan always eventually gets what he wants: death. Regardless of who is suffering (losing the war) and whether 1 side is right or wrong, somebody will die if he can get us to divide and kill each other no matter the reason, putting us in a constant need to fight, rather than allowing us to have complete peace and love tha can last forever. The ambtions of the power-grabbing characters are just the means to attain Satan's need for more deaths. After all, a destructive god would have nothing to destroy if there wasn't anything that we created (like music, culture, art, more people) for it during peacetime, for him to delight in then taking it away from us. It's an endless and cruel cycle of create-destroy. Not even Love lasts forever.

Edited October 16, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Jasonc]

This is such an interesting topic, because as all of us agree that a new Macross series would be great, we all can agree that it needs to be uncompomising in its presentation and delivery. As far as M7 is concerned, I actually enjoyed it. A little hard to swallow at the start, but it is a good plot. I would be very pissed if they decided to redo the old Macross series. I'm not gonna say what should or shouldn't be done, but there are a lot of options for Macross to do without compromising it.

Not that HG is the shining example of this, but the new series they are working on seems to be promising. Their new series, Shadow Force, continues where the last episode of The New Gen. left off. This could give them a chance to redeem themselves and actually do something that isn't cut and spliced together.

Macross can do a new series that continues from Macross 7. Why not? As far as toys, there's so much that hasn't been done yet. YF-19 FP, SV-51, YF-4, and all the M7 jets that never made any production.

If Macross is dying down, it's expected. I'm a fan for life, and I was around during the lull. If you don't want it to die out, and want more Macross, voice it out. Action is always soooo much better than just accepting what you don't want.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If Macross is dying down, it's expected. I'm a fan for life, and I was around during the lull. If you don't want it to die out, and want more Macross, voice it out. Action is always soooo much better than just accepting what you don't want.

All they would need to do is find out what made the original so good, and kind of evolve that idea. I'm all for a ground based war where the focus is on variable mechs that are custom designed to survive on land. (kind of like the land equivalent of that sea-based mech in macross zero. I think it's called the 'octos'?)

In mospeada they had that cool bike thing that acted as extra body armour and powersuit in one. Brilliant idea imo. It served it's purpose well for a single soldier who would have been too noticeable by the enemy if he used a full sized mech and given that technology would get more advanced, an idea like that would fit in well for human-sized soldiers of the future who had to survive in space but needed to be small to explore small areas tht a full sized mech wouldn't have been suitble for. (I thnk I remember seeing something like this in bubble gum crisis) I want to see something like that where they can grow from the original variable technology and expand the macross world. At least this would eliminate complaints by people who keep saying the mechs don't have to be giant sized anymore. The anti-un in macross zero seem to have this variable tehnology idea first. Before zentreadi had arrived to earth, suggesting that maybe the variable battroids the UN created weren't so secret to everyone after all. The UN could have infact infiltrated and inherited ideas from anti-UN after thier defeat.

It makes sense that maybe they (a new anti UN group that had to go underground and remain secret) would try to team up with the rebel zentreadi as a force to fight against the UN. (given my idea that racism is still felt within the world of macross and some zentreadi would defect from human civilisation out of religious, traditional, or cultic reasons. Although I didn't much like macross IIs story, the evil villain in that is the kind of guy I have in mind. Only the difference is his lust for revenge fuels the hate, more than a disgust for human weakness.)

Whereas the anti-un could provide the brains of the operations, helping to design new variable mecha, the rebel Zentreadi could provide the muscle and thier advanced knowledge of war tactics to fend off any resistance to thier growing power. The UN, having been complacent over the years will not know what to expect because it was a force that was growing in secret and the newer generation will be ignorant of what happened in sw I, too sheltered from war to be battle ready.

Edited October 16, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Jasonc]

The ideas for that are good, but you can't stray too far off the topic without losing the "Macross" feel in an anime. That's what made MOSPEADA a cool show on its own. It had the cycles, but also had the larger mecha and large scale air and space battles.

I like Macross Zero, but they could've done more explaining the process of reverse engineering and what exactly they found exploring the SDF Macross. But now that the prequel has been done, there needs to be a series that progresses from M7. I can be done. And those who produce these anime hopefully realize that what they started so long ago is epic and does have a fanbase large enough to continue.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It had the cycles, but also had the larger mecha and large scale air and space battles.

heh, I'm not sure what actually happened in mospeada but in the robotech version of events protoculture would give away thier position so they were forced to limit thier use of alpha-beta/legioss-tread unless they wanted to die. And those larger mecha are still smaller than the robotech "veritechs". The truth in that version: the humans got thier asses kicked in space and had to continue on the ground because the enemy was simply more powerful than them. Sometimes they would fight in the air, but flying was too dangerous a lot of other times in that version and thier team were consisted of just resistance fighters who lived on earth, and people they met were slaves and sometimes secret sympathisers of the invid. It is like lotr where thier supplies and allies were short and they had to make do with limits.

The problem with the UN is that to me they need an enemy who can threaten them or a splitting up of power to make an excuse for war and a new series. (unless they find new aliens to fight?)

I like Macross Zero, but they could've done more explaining the process of reverse engineering and what exactly they found exploring the SDF Macross

I think the overtechnology is too mysterious. After the crash, maybe the UN had to borrow concepts from the anti-un to help understand the science of the aliens. (why would they have variable vehicles ahead of them?) Similar to how the nazis were ahead in technology possibly because they had occultic knowledge (spirit guides passing them information through "automatic writing") and were even rumoured to be experimenting in saucer designs. It would be too embarassing to admit they learnt alot of the ideas from thier enemies to the public. This is demonology!

The most mysterious thing I can think of that parrallells with this is the "foo fighters" from WWII. Today they are just called ufos. Perhaps the goverment has reversed engineered the alien tech from ideas the nazis secretly gained about them after the end of the war? I was hoping macross zero would explore and explain the area of antigravity that seemed so mysterious to the humans in sdf macross. Because in that the goverment only half understood the technology, else they wouldn't have made so many mistakes using it when launching the sdf1 out into space and ripping holes in it when trying to take off. It needed unconventional minds (ones who weren't afriad to be ostracised by the rest of the scientific community) to begin to explain how it all really worked.

Like the futurama and the jetson's cartoon maybe we already have the tech and can begin making hover vehicles but it is being held a tightly guarded secret? (why provide free energy systems when you stand to lose big $ charging people for existing ones?) No one apart from people in the fringe groups, is prepared to except it so science fiction movies condition us to be prepared for it when it IS used?

Edited October 16, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Seven]

There is so much back story and background in the period prior to the First Space War that they could make several anime series and OVAs about it all - about the overtechnology, transformation, protoculture, etc etc. But IMO, it just hasn't been Kawamori's style as a director to have large scale epic stories with smaller character driven plots with lots of details layered to reveal more of the world. He tends to drive towards more focused stories that spotlight the main characters and leaves supporting characters and other world details in much much less detail. Hideaki Anno is more along the lines of a director that really tends to lay down a ton of details to flesh out a world and back story. Noburo Ishiguro more prominently, being the director of the first Macross, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and the Yamato TV series.

I just say this since if one were to expect Kawamori to flesh out the unification wars, you'd be disappointed that he wouldn't like to do so IMO. It'd be nice to get Ishiguro to direct another Macross feature, but he hasn't done much of anything in recent time.

[azrael]

...(why would they have variable vehicles ahead of them?)...

Because they stole it?

http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/i/...v_dd/index.html

[Jasonc]

When they were still looking at doing Macross 3D, that would be a good time frame to do a new series. The year circa 2050, perhaps Zentraedi with their warlike nature and now ideas of culture have learned the ideas of technological terrorism. Zentraedi rebellion breaks out over a few colonized worlds, and there you go. Introduce the VF-3000 and the 5000, as well as old VF-4s, and the VA-3 Invader, and you have a plot that can be developed with great character development. Damn I'm good. How do I come up with these ideas? I don't know, it's like a gift.

But seriously, they throw in an old character(s) as well, and you can have a good series, and stretch it out as far as you want. That type of series can either be very edgy, or be a little light and get great effects. It'd be cool to see Isamu again perhaps, you never know what could happen. As every series in Macross reveals some new revelation, this story could unveil older, ancient wars the Zentraedi were in, or their genetics, endless possibilities.

Either way, if more people post and voice their desires for a good, up-to-date Macross series that is edgy and non-compomising, perhaps heads will turn.

The whole point is that just cause the originals were so good, doesn't mean that they can't do another great series, and longer than 5 30 minute OVAs. And although the fanbase seems to be shrinking, I believe something new will come out. There's too many fans and too much love for Macross to let it go.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

and so it is said that he defected to the Anti-United Nations forces carrying the VF-0's development data.

ah yeah you got me there so there goes my theory.

"It is said.." I'm thinking that's why so many UN pilots were being killed because they just couldn't match the ability of the variable fighters. But why not just say that: "And so he stole the vf0's development data." rather than "it is said.."? Maybe there's another side to it that we may not know?

For example I believe that white haired chick in macross 0 didn't understand that it may have been anti-un forces that killed those villagers and not un forces. Similar to the way Guld in macross plus remembered that Isamu hurt myung but his memory got mangled until the end when he finally realised it was him all along. Basically the technique used was so the audience was made to be tricked from the beginning, thinking Isamu's recklessness translated into him accidently hurting myung, and Guld was the protector - and then they add the final twist where they both protect her.

History is usually written by the victor of the war. If Ivanov knew about the secret projects they would have trusted him and he may have had a good reason to defect. Possibly because after some people who were neutral to either un or anti-UN causes who helped create it, the technology was thought too dangerous under UNG control because there was some bad eggs in the UN (similar to the mad scientist guy in macross plus) who wanted to kill off any resistance to thier power and go on a mass killing spree to gain whatever resources from other poorer villagers and nations they could wring out of through unwarranted force; instead of diplomacy, asking for co-operation instead of taking it, "because they just could" ..with these new weapons. If they had actually used the word "stolen" in the compendium it would set it in stone but since there is still 1 episode left there might be some interesting twist they want to keep secret ala mac +.

The problem is the anti un characters just seem a little too evil imo Like the way isamu in macross + comes off as a bad guy at the start because we are led to believe myung was hurt by him. (we are left hanging: What on earth could he have done to her to make her so depressed?)

Similarly, maybe the anti-un got that way from something the un had done to them? We obviously see the UN as playing the imperialistic 'bad guy' in macross zero (Sara can't stand the technology the whites have brought to her people) but when you consider that there is corruption within the UN (the Hasford figure that roy's girlfriend is folowing under, and also Ivanov) we can't be sure it's the Anti-un themselves doing the "stealing". (ie the trusted characters who once worked under the UN are just defecting, having previously not been part of anti un. What the series hasn't explained is: why did they do it? Did they have good or bad reasons or are they just evil guys like the mad scientist in macross plus?)

When your own mentors and teachers are the villains (hasford, Ivanov) it just shows how dangerous that technology is when it goes into the wrong hands. (mainly the innocent villagers who get hurt by both sides from the fighting for power: neither one anti-Un or UN being good or bad, just struggling for power and control) Like Global mentions in sdf macross: man must spread his species to avoid these type of incidents (we make ourselves extinct by fighting) when all the attention and tax is spent on boosting military funding and making more deadly weapons, and war ends up killing innocent civilians along with soldiers, thus reducing the human population the longer we keep the war machine going. There's is no such thing as everlsting peace even under a UN since it won't account for those bad eggs within the un (the mad scientist types) who want that power for themselves.

This is basically going back to the idea that no one can expect where the bad guy is going to come from (whether from within or without) and why I think the idea of a mass rebellion needs to take place to challenge the UN again. The bigger the power gets, the increased chance of rebellion and need for independance as more people develop thier own military to be able to take them on. (after sw I there were no resources to make this possible, except for what attacks came from kamjin who happened to learn how to repair technology from us humans. ...but after a time...after more and more become educated and decide they want to have thier own slice of the pie and be independant again...its like a ticking time bomb)

Now given that some of the older generation humans who fought in sw 1 would be a little scared, a little more racist and xenophobic towards zentreadi (because of the threat of characters who are like kamijin who might rise again), would it be unreasonable to suggest that they would want to limit the education they give to the zentreadi, keeping them dumb out of fear of what they could do to the humans, and therefore give them less opportunities to be independant? Sparking another war at the hands of a new zentreadi leader who claims to want to help make them proud again if they grant him the power to lead them to independance?

Edited October 17, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

There was a love triangle as usual, a big brother mentor character (Folken), and even the lead Zaibach guy reminded me of Bodolza with his body consisting of huge machinery and being long lived.

I find that ridiculous.

The mentor character in Escaflowne was Balgus. To be honest, Allen Schezar was actually inspired from Roy Focker. Folken has the rank of Britai, and the character seems more inspired from Guld than anyone else.

The ranks of the enemy are somewhat intuitive: there is the commander who never sees the battlefield, a sort of emperor (Bodolza), the commander who sees the battlefield but doesn't fight personally (Britai), and the commander who fights (Kamjin). This is the basic structure, you can increase the number of commanders but these ranks are the most representative of an army.

This is not what makes an anime formulaic.

FV

[mikeszekely]

There was a love triangle as usual, a big brother mentor character (Folken), and even the lead Zaibach guy reminded me of Bodolza with his body consisting of huge machinery and being long lived.

I find that ridiculous.

The mentor character in Escaflowne was Balgus. To be honest, Allen Schezar was actually inspired from Roy Focker. Folken has the rank of Britai, and the character seems more inspired from Guld than anyone else.

The ranks of the enemy are somewhat intuitive: there is the commander who never sees the battlefield, a sort of emperor (Bodolza), the commander who sees the battlefield but doesn't fight personally (Britai), and the commander who fights (Kamjin). This is the basic structure, you can increase the number of commanders but these ranks are the most representative of an army.

This is not what makes an anime formulaic.

FV

Then Kamjin = Dilandau, by your formula. And considering that they were both nuts, yeah, that makes sense.