"Star Trek Movie Syndrome" befalls Macross?

[ewilen]

Anyway, I'd like to write more but a very important person of the opposite sex is calling me to dinner...

Pfft. Wussie

Yes, well I doubt you can do better.

[yellowlightman]

I don't see where the goofyness is. Is it goofy to sing to someone instead of shoot them? And if so, why?

Head over to Iraq, find a raging firefight, don your best glam-rock outfit, jump in the middle of said firefight, and give it a shot.

I think the goofiness will be readily apparent.

-Al

Psst.. it's a cartoon!

With giant robots.

And aliens.

But you're right, the singing is ridiculous.

[Sundown]

Psst.. it's a cartoon!

With giant robots.

And aliens.

But you're right, the singing is ridiculous.

I think you're confusing ridiculously goofy with ridiculously kickass.

-Al

[ewilen]

Well, I'm really in the middle here. I do think M7 handles its material in a way that most viewers would see as less "mature" or "serious" than other science fiction and fantasy--no matter that the underlying premises are no more or less plausible. But by the same coin, the premises themselves aren't the problem. Having seen 80% of M0 and about 55% of M7, I see M0 as being in the same vein, though with a more mature sensibility. Sort of the way that you might see DYRL as more mature than SDF Macross in many ways. I know that there are also people who hate M7 and M0...but I'll bet you could also take a fairly detailed outline of M7 and adapt it into a "mature" movie that would please many of the biggest M7 detractors without significantly altering the story or premises.

[Uxi]

Basara's singing is at first silly until he's so obstinate about it, especially when it came to selecting Mylene for Sound Force.

It WAS interesting that even Basara resorted to force, by choice, probably 10 episodes before that.

When Mylene, Kinryu, Gigil, Gamlin, Max, Sivil, and finally Geperenich all eventually end up first listening and then singing Basara's song, it was quite serious to the story, if not moving (as much as a cartoon is capable of anyways).

[Keith]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

[macplus]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

A hint: better wear a bullet proof vest...

[azrael]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

Oh, hush now boy....

You're getting all worked up for nothing.

Having seen 80% of M0 and about 55% of M7

Quit talking and get back to watching M7....Mr. "I've only seen 55% of M7".

but I'll bet you could also take a fairly detailed outline of M7 and adapt it into a "mature" movie that would please many of the biggest M7 detractors without significantly altering the story or premises.

That could be said of a lot of shows. Or you can even do it the other way around by taking a short story and expanding it to a long story....but that might ruin some of the impact of the short story, like taking a Miyazaki film and turning it into a series...

It may depend on cultural conditioning, or familiarity from other fiction.

Familiarity with other fiction is something you might want to give some more thought about. I find that stories that have more than 1 or 2 genres/concepts/etc. woven into the story to be a bit more facinating. Look at M0. It mixes religion with sci-fi and drama. With the original SDF Macross, there was comedy (after watching it and following the liner notes, there are lots of in-jokes and little things) and a love story woven into the sci-fi drama. M7 went a little beyond that SDF-formula and added an aspect of religion, namely faith. It added a bit of dimension to the story that was never used in a Macross series. This is probably where M+ lacks in story, besides it being short. It's got action, but that action is more in tune with the sci-fi aspect. The love story has been reduced to just above sea level. M+ is a sci-fi action with a small love story, yet it leans more on the sci-fi action. IMO, that's probably what made M+ a "2-dimensional" story.

[Radd]

Rarely is it pointed out, though I believe at least one perceptive Macrossworlder has pointed it out already, that running out in a battlefield singing songs at those fighting to make them stop, has about as much effect in Macross 7 as it would if someone in the real world ran over to Iraq with a guitare. Even over the course of the series, it isn't the music, but the ideals that have the lasting impact on the characters. Only those who are receptive to those ideals don't see Basara as a wacko in the series, and even right up to the end there are those who don't grok that way of thinking.

I've seen this mirrored in viewers' reactions to the series as well, wich is one of the reasons I laud the character developement in the series, that they didn't have all of the characters easily swayed, and many of those that were, only after a significant amount of time, and after coming to an understanding of the ideals that motivated Basara's outlandish actions.

I'm not trying to sway Macross 7 haters over to the other side, I'm simply pointing out that the concept that many people immeadiately identify as rediculous isn't nearly so much as they say, such as ewilen pointed out.

I would agree with the statement that in Macross 7 there's a lot to the presentation that many would see as childish, but it's theme, message, and overall story aren't the problem.

I would still love to see a DYRL? style take on M7, though I'm happy with Dynamite 7, wich dropped a lot of the presentation problems I personally didn't like.

[Agent ONE]

I don't see where the goofyness is. Is it goofy to sing to someone instead of shoot them? And if so, why?

In defense of Keith, Michael Jackson did sing 'We are the World' in response to the Cold War. So there's some real life M7-ish behavior for ya.

So I guess Keith and Michael Jackson are in the same boat.

[Agent ONE]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for.

[yellowlightman]

I don't see where the goofyness is. Is it goofy to sing to someone instead of shoot them? And if so, why?

In defense of Keith, Michael Jackson did sing 'We are the World' in response to the Cold War. So there's some real life M7-ish behavior for ya.

So I guess Keith and Michael Jackson are in the same boat.

Dude, wasn't We Are The World a funraiser for starving kids in Africa?

[Keith]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for.

Damn right, I'd have them dancin' on the Planet Dance!

[Agent ONE]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for.

Damn right, I'd have them dancin' on the Planet Dance!

I wish you were right.

Unfortunately, I think you wouldn't make it through humming your first few bars and you'd be kidnapped only to have sick-o kids downloading crap quality AVI files of your decapitation...

Well, I guess its a good thing you aren't in Iraq, if only to protect you from yourself.

[EXO]

I don't see where the goofyness is. Is it goofy to sing to someone instead of shoot them? And if so, why?

ummm... maybe it's because they're pointing a gun at you?

[DARKWIND]

Let's just say that wars cannot be won by just singing a few songs. . .

If they could this would all be a moot point. . .

(And I would be in a different line of work. . . )

Now let it be known that this is not exactly "goofy" in a sense.

(Face facts, it made an interresting way to look at fighting a war)

But in our society, if it didn't happen yet it probably won't. . .

Even in the anime there were "show me" people who just didn't believe. . .

So even after seeing it with their own eyes they still were ready to "duke it out". . .

And weapons were the only way to do that. . .

Edited October 11, 2004 by DARKWIND

[Final Vegeta]

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for. 

That Jihad you are talking about is like the killer bees, it's a fake scare. Iraq is the weakest country of middle-east, and now it would just want to lick its wounds for decades. Iraqis have no business in fighting a war on the other side of Earth.

I bet you can't find Iraq on a map (or Afghanistan. Or Japan. Or Italy. Or Great Britain. Well, in fact people who use internet often are better at this, but 11% of young US citizens didn't even know where US is). My suspect is that US people are kept unaware of, among many other things, geography, so they could fear invasions from every other country in the world. All other countries were able to tell US population better than its people.

I would like to see a list of all the things US people has been afraid of during their whole history. It's true that all people around the world are the same, but I realized that not all people are told the same things.

FV

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I've only seen a bit of m7 (about 20 eps in) and I find it more humourous than serious.

Whereas the Zentreadi seemed warlike and conditioned to behave as soldiers 24/7, these vampiric alien beings are just naturally seeking an energy source to maintain thier existence. That just so happens to be souls to feed upon. But are they really bad, or just victims who are cursed and in need of help?

The idea is that even exedol could not have prepared for them, so any method for dealing with these aliens must have sounded plausible enough as past methods, (well, as plausible as culture shock was to the zentreadi) so why not music?

Young people are usually very antiwar because they just want peace and are driven by thier ideals and willing to take stupid risks. Look at antiwar protestors who are brave enough to line up in front of tanks or journalists trying to gather the truth by going to a country whereby they may get captured and killed. This is part bravery, part stupidity. But they deserve as much respect as anyone else we look to as courageous and bold. They are, in thier minds pioneering or doing something about it instead of sitting on thier butt wasting away or allowing the problem to grow worse, hoping it won't effect them and that death will just go away if they ignore the problem as if nothing is happening.

I don't see anything strange about basara using pop culture shock to try to persuade these beings that it is unecessary to attack if the people are peaceful and mean no harm to begin with. Just because a nation is at war with another in the real world doesn't mean there aren't peaceful sectors who can see the futility of fighting on both opposing sides. (eg the few responsible religious leaders and activists who have not let politics poison thier beliefs by setting a bad example and starting to actually condone war and killing when it suits them) I find this part quite "real" even if I'm personally turned off by the more kiddy appearance of the valks compared to other series.

I think the problem with a lot of people is they like to see the music as an actual weapon used merely to disarm the "pest" (so long as they, the enemy, are out of the way of the military, this method is just a means to an end, not an end in itself; that of sprirtual awakening and healing the victim) more than an attempt to actually help people, even aliens who are ignorant of the fact that they need help.

Maybe by seeing the music under the context of a "religious healing" and exorcism of habits and 'sins' that damage the individual, as opposed to a method to harm or merely pacify the enemy, (music in SWI was used a 'distraction' only) does the story start to seem more plausible. Hating the sin and not the sinner is crucual if you want to truly clean yourself from the cycle of bloodshed without looking like a hypocrite who won't practice what he preaches, or sings for. Whereas minmay was popular and she never intended to sing to end wars in the first place, basara aims to end war using his singing to achieve this and actually prefers NOT to become famous by boycotting gigs if he isn't feeling like it meets his "end the fighting" goal. He looks far more happy singing to enemies than to fans! Comparing these two icons: who seemed less selfish and shallow to you? Minmay or Basara?

If you take a religous view on this, maybe these aren't "enemies" to basara but potential victims he sees as needing healing and understanding. Words and music can be very powerfully persuasive (politicians play word games all the time to manipulate your emotions; same with ads and prepared speeches) as can specific frequencies or vibrations to living things. eg A soothing voice sounds more calming to a baby whereas sudden sharp loud noises can scare or frighten, causing stress or panic and an increased heart rate from stress. Watch a horror flick and notice how it is used to build tension if you don't believe me. It is powerful.

Our subconscious minds pick up lots of information that is deemed useless, but I think over a long period of time it has a slow-acting effect which grows on people. (which is why the repetition in this tv series - haven't you ever heard a song you thought was crap, then over time grown to like it the more you grew to understand what the artist was trying to say in it?)

I think this might be the goal of basara: Promote your songs but don't be a freakin hypocrite by not also going out there to play the activist role and risk life and limb to prove to others and to yourself that you mean business about trying to help others.

There are some people in this world that believe no matter how far someone has fallen they are still worth trying to save and yo never turn your back on them or try to kill or harm them because in real life they have proof it can work. To me Basara is basically trying to save souls, not just physical lives, but the very spririts themselves. And by singing he "raises spirits" and heals the souls of those who have been empty shells from the horror of war and cycle of death. That's basically my own interpretation here. But that's art for you.

To me artists are "creators", not destroyers and they can see the futility of fighting that us, less sensitive types choose to sometimes ignore out of conveniece because we hate to look at the big picture or see the plan in the future. And really despite being "right" in the war, and being on the side of justice, somebody is still dying in a fight or in war, so even if we are the good guys, we should STILL not be happy about death or enjoy and relish it by automatically concluding that we must always use force to solve the problem. Killing the wrong guy, is still a form of destruction no matter what. And that was the very reason we had to demonstrate to the zentreadi there are alternatives to fighting in the first war. In many cases we were damn lucky to have survived, being the much weaker force. We can't consciously allow ourselves to become like the zentreadi (who we initially thought were too evil to save or befriend) and merely rely on force as the solution to all problems. By doing this we are just becoming like them and losing a bit of our own soul/conscience each time and bit by bit, becoming more like a hollow shell with each kill we make: a mere goverment sanctioned killing machine ready to follow orders and commands without thought or check that we are still human and not one of "Satan's Dolls/puppets" as exedol so lovingly described his people as when bringing death and extinction to new planets/civilisations/cultures.

Do I like macross 7 so far? Yes. But my personal preferences have always been in the style of a serious story with a good dose of drama in front of a backdrop of good action scenes (I'm sorry I've been spoiled by macross plus' awesome fights) with stylish mecha and epic space battles showing struggle between 2 sides. To me the tone of the series so far seems a little too happy imo (do we care as much about a overproctected bratty little 14 yr old just trying to be famous whos mum won't let her be what she wants?) but I won't bag it for that reason alone, because it is trying for something different. I think basara has way more substance than that pink haired chick who cares only for success and to be famous; a character trait that is very shallow and common in real life, seeing as this is not the most important thing in life.

I find mylene more annoying than basara imo (but she is grounded in reality at least, and we love her on first impressions because she has valid complaints against Basara; her being the newest member of the band and all, kind of like what Scully the skeptic was to Mulder in the Xfiles in the early episodes, but who, over time slowly became annoying as she was only there to question mulder and has absolutely no faith at all, even if she had seen the proof and had a long history of sometimes being wrong! )

Edited October 11, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[bandit29]

Edo?

ya lost me. most of us are just scrolling over

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

That was my macross 7 impressions after having just spent a few hours watching about 20 eps to see what was so crap/good about it since you hear about how crap it is almost every week, so I was curious and posted my thoughts, criticsms, hates, likes, disapointments about it. This series has a good and relevent deep message that is, I believe, overlooked. Glad I got that off my chest finally hehe.

In case you were wondering I am new and have never seen macross 7 so all these ideas just came to me after just watching it and sampling some of what people are bagging it out for. (esp repetitive tunes, lack of good battles, characters that weren't as likable, story that "isn't realisic" and garish colours for the valks compared to other macross series)

I never really got a chance to talk about this before and pull it apart so that was my first impression of it so far. The story is much better than macross II which I am glad to finally find out. The music sucks more, and the battles no where near as exciting. It was a major downgrade coming off of mac+ but after getting used to that you see the characters are not typical stereotypes like we are used to but, unique kids with issues that lie deep within them and take time to come out. Basara sounds goofy and unrealistic on first impressions but I can really imagine people in real life like that, which brings substance to this series and puts something new to the macross table I've never seen before while remaining consistant with other series. (music being central to everything and being a saving grace. Even macross plus had music as a saving grace when myung sang her song to wake Isamu up, which one guy claimed had no meaning to that story)

Edited October 11, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Agent ONE]

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for. 

That Jihad you are talking about is like the killer bees, it's a fake scare. Iraq is the weakest country of middle-east, and now it would just want to lick its wounds for decades. Iraqis have no business in fighting a war on the other side of Earth.

I bet you can't find Iraq on a map (or Afghanistan. Or Japan. Or Italy. Or Great Britain. Well, in fact people who use internet often are better at this, but 11% of young US citizens didn't even know where US is). My suspect is that US people are kept unaware of, among many other things, geography, so they could fear invasions from every other country in the world. All other countries were able to tell US population better than its people.

I would like to see a list of all the things US people has been afraid of during their whole history. It's true that all people around the world are the same, but I realized that not all people are told the same things.

FV

I was actually in the middle east 3 months ago. Don't use personal insults to prove a political point, it makes your argument look weak.

I respect the fact that you and I have a difference of opinion BTW.

[Agent ONE]

Edo?

ya lost me. most of us are just scrolling over

Well.. he HAS made like 4 or 5 comebacks to MW. It wouldn't surprise me.

[KingNor]

even in SDF macross and DYRL they used music to confuse the enemy, they still had to fight them. and the enemys still fought back, they were just unsure and fighting sloppy/scared.

its a demoralizer.

i dont' know what hapends in M7 yet, but if the music alone is defeating the enemys then thats quite a departure from the combat model i'm used to in Macross.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

even in SDF macross and DYRL they used music to confuse the enemy, they still had to fight them. and the enemys still fought back, they were just unsure and fighting sloppy/scared.

its a demoralizer.

i dont' know what hapends in M7 yet, but if the music alone is defeating the enemys then thats quite a departure from the combat model i'm used to in Macross.

Keep in mind these new enemies resemble vampires. I'm not sure if this is a correct description but they may be 'undead' creatures who are seemingly invincible and can't be killed using conventional weapons? Otherwise the zentreadi would have wiped them out ages ago with no probs. I'm also assuming here that this was the "legendary power" that exedol and Breetai were so scared about when they saw Lynn Kyle in the movie "Little White Dragon" (or whatever it was called) because it may have tricked them into thinking we humans had that same power that these demons/vamps posess. lol I have not watched it all so I don't have the full story.

But my main point is that is not how basara sees it, ('killing' being the only way)because he wants to spiritually heal and make the enemy understand, rather than eliminate them from existiance which is easy for the military to do. Normally when something gets in your way you destroy it. Say for example your family members were mind controlled and became a hollow shell, would you want to kill them for being one of the baddies, or want to help them awaken from thier mind controlled state of manipulation as a zombie with a lack of a soul? (that's what zombies are, you can't kill them in rpgs because they are already spiritually dead, only healing them by using a healing spell kills that state because it brings them back to "life") No amount of weapons is going to bring them back but in the context of using music to heal as opposed to a mere distraction (space war I) or as a weapon (macross plus where sharon apple uses hypnotism which puts the listeners into a mind controlled trance), this could work.

War protestors want others to understand they are only fighting out of fear for each other and it wasn't always like that. There was a time when people of 2 different religions/races/cultures could get on perfectly well (even in the middle east believe this or not!) and co-exist but they are only fighting because corrupt leaders and politcians have sent them to kill on command out of thier own personal interests and have misled them. Like in star craft: a stronger race has every intention of taking a weaker ones belongings and this is what powerful people do: take power no matter what race you are. If somebody can command armies and get rich/powerful in the process they will continue to do this while spinning thier own version of reality on to the masess to make them agree that war is good, good, good. It is not new.

And consider this: the humans would not have stood a hope in hell without music. They all would have eventually been killed if they didn't give this wacky idea a chance. Music was what saved the day and bought the opportunity to use the weapons on the target. Of course you don't have to kill the person, just capture and imprison them once you had them in a vulnerable position. But it just wouldn't have looked as cool onscreen so they chose to end it with a big explosion. If I saw an action movie I would want to see big explosions and stuff to get my money's worth, so that's what we were given instead.

About "flying around without weapons and singing being too unrealistic" comments others have made?

Well consider this: hikaru was in the flying circus as an acrobat. There is a lot of danger and recklessness involved in that. But if the character is good enough to tame the beast whether it be a lion or a crocodile or a plane, to make it do what it wants, I don't see how basara is being reckless so long as his skills are up to the task to calculate those risks and danger to himself. I see the soldiers as being crappier pilots than him the way a matador sees a bull as being too easy to predict and therefore not such a threat given the skill of the person. To an untrained person it is hella dangerous though. Basara could be seen as a type of croc hunter.

We never stop to think why the person is not able to be shot down and whether that person considers the people attacking him as being a real threat. Yes guns are dangerous but if you are better than your opponent with them or at avoiding fire it might seem harmless.

Given the skill of the person's flying ability then, is it not reasonable to assume the person has opportunites we normal people don't? If you could say, master a martial art where you were as harmless to your opponents as they were to you (because they just couldn't manage to hit you and even if they did it would result in negligible damage that was easily recoverable from) that resulted in nobody getting killed, wouldn't that be great that nobody could be harmed? You could avoid every attack and destroy thier willingness to go on by tiring them.

Simply put: a character that is confident enough in thier own ability but restrains themselves from being violent is seeking a higher purpose. It sounds unreal but so was max when he was unable to be killed in swI because his skill made him unbeatable. Miriya made a good point to him (this was after they hooked up) about only disarming the enemy by shooting them in the lower legs of the pods if possible. Wasn't that enough if your skill afforded it? Why punish them if they are only doing thier duty as soldiers and not thier fault they are forced to fight? Why do you necessarily need them to be dead? Is it for revenge to make you feel better for the people they took from you? They are just doing thier fighting duty like you!

These were her own people after all. Maybe they deserved a chance like her? At the time, this to me would have sounded as unreasonable as basara singing to people who want nothing more than to see him dead. This is miyiya we are talking about who has nothing but contempt for weaker underlings before she met max. But as I get older I realise it is way more juvenile and immature and unrealistic to expect miriya NOT to feel any sympathy when firing and killing her own kind. That kind of character depth is what I mean. Beyond all the politics, spin and reasons people give to themselves to justify killing, in the end just about all the sane characters in the original macross tv series wanted to "end the war" for peace reasons, not for power reasons. (like admiral hayes or bodolza who are the evil controller types who dont give a crap about those suffering in the wake of thier ambitions)

I'm not saying that I like or support the idea that future macross series should preach to us in exchange for making a series less entertaining and that we should all like it; with characters so extreme they won't fight or do something cool that we can be comfortable with, but I'm just giving my own reasons to why this series does in fact fit in with the original tv series, just in a unique (not necessarily better) way. It may not be my thing, (I like the macross plus aproach of physical battles over spiritual battles) but I'm one of the few that do apreciate that this tried something different is all I'm saying.

edit: Sheesh my posts are getting too longwinded. I better take a break from the boards for some fresh air.

Edited October 12, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Keith]

Bitch, give me a VF-19 Kai with sound boosters & speaker system, and I'll solve that problem in Iraq immediately!

Yeah dude... They would forget AAAAALL about that Jihad thing that they have been planing their entire life for.

Damn right, I'd have them dancin' on the Planet Dance!

I wish you were right.

Unfortunately, I think you wouldn't make it through humming your first few bars and you'd be kidnapped only to have sick-o kids downloading crap quality AVI files of your decapitation...

Well, I guess its a good thing you aren't in Iraq, if only to protect you from yourself.

Perhaps you missed the part about requiring a VF-19 Kai?

And as the rest, this is a discussion we've had many times before, guns don't kill people, people pulling the trigger kill people. You can destroy someones weapons, but you can't take away that killing intent just by pointing a gun at someone. The point of Macross is to change the sensabilities of the person behind the gun, not to distract them so you can shoot them. This is the principle that Macross 7 holds, just as SDF Macross, DYRL, Plus, & Zero do.

& Edo, have you watched DYRL yet?

Edited October 12, 2004 by Keith

[myk]

That Jihad you are talking about is like the killer bees, it's a fake scare. Iraq is the weakest country of middle-east, and now it would just want to lick its wounds for decades.

So Jihad's a fake war, eh? Tell that to the 2 or 3 thousand innocent people that died during the attack on the World Trade Center, or maybe even the ones in the Oklahoma city bombing before that, or maybe even the civilian contractors who have been beheaded; or if not then try telling their family and friends that Jihad is just some government scare tactic to keep us "unaware," as you put it.

I hate to go off topic guys, but I could NOT let that one go...

It's attitudes like this that make me wonder why I'm trying to enlist in the Army-so I can get cut to bloody shreds, defending the right for people to think and act like an ass...Where is the logic in that, guys?

Moderator time!

Edited October 13, 2004 by myk

[Radd]

I think he meant the idea that the entire mideast is off to destroy the western world, or that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 (wich they didn't), or maybe that Iraq somehow posed a threat to the United States seeing as how the topic was Iraq.

[Final Vegeta]

I was actually in the middle east 3 months ago.  Don't use personal insults to prove a political point, it makes your argument look weak.

I admit I was harsh and I apologize, but I have sources:

National Geographic reveals geographic illiteracy (beside this, according to CIA's Factbook, literacy rate in US was last measured only in 1979 - 25 years ago).

There is a world wide trend of ignorance (covering also history and other sector) that is spreading. US may lead, but even other states have their education flaws.

-O-O-O-

This is a debate I didn't mean to do, but in 2001 after 9/11 Arabs showing their empathy for Americans greatly outnumbered manifestations of hatred. For istance,

shortly following the attacks, the media repeatedly showed pictures of Palestinians apparently celebrating the attacks, switching repeatedly between these pictures and the pictures of the Twin Towers. Actually the Palestinian celebrations were staged by Israeli defence forces, with the celebrations having nothing to do with the Twin Towers attacks.

It is true that many died that day, but in fact they were too few people for such a catastrophic attack.

• 3000 persons died out of two buildings that can hold up to 50000 persons. Twin Towers were half empty, most people escaped before the towers fell one hour later.
  
• 125 persons died out of a building that can hold up to 24000 persons. The Pentagon wing hit, and only that wing, was conveniently under construction.
  
• 4 planes that can carry up to 200-250 passengers each, and that day carried from 40 to 80 passengers.
  
• Anthrax carrying letter, to kill Americans one by one. 22 infected that I know, some of them was saved. In the letters someone wrote a note suggesting the people who opened them should take penicillin.
  
• No nuclear power plant damaged.
  

Is Osama lame or US very lucky? Was Osama's a war or a challenge?

Documents released under FOIA offer little doubts.

Operation Northwoods

Anyway, there a lot of differences but if we take Macross 7 as a war for resources (spiritia), it can be a real story. Well, I know I can't make up for my off-topic, but maybe out of disaster I gained a point over Macross 7.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Btw, I just discovered there was a plane called Messerschmitt 262 "Schwalbe", it was the world's first operational turbojet aircraft, and well, it was obviously made by Nazis.

I think there is a reference to that in Macross Zero, since Ivanov is "Schwalbe leader" (or "Schwalbe-1"?).

FV

[bsu legato]

Btw, I just discovered there was a plane called Messerschmitt 262 "Schwalbe", it was the world's first operational turbojet aircraft, and well, it was obviously made by Nazis.

You've never heard of the Me 262 before now?

[ewilen]

With a few exceptions, this little diversion has been surprisingly free of passion. But it's still a diversion. If you can't discuss M7 without bringing Iraq into it, you you need to read some books, or at least sit down with the History Channel for a while.

[Agent ONE]

I was actually in the middle east 3 months ago.  Don't use personal insults to prove a political point, it makes your argument look weak.

I admit I was harsh and I apologize, but I have sources:

National Geographic reveals geographic illiteracy (beside this, according to CIA's Factbook, literacy rate in US was last measured only in 1979 - 25 years ago).

There is a world wide trend of ignorance (covering also history and other sector) that is spreading. US may lead, but even other states have their education flaws.

...

I don't see how 1979 literacy rates relate to you insulting me. Noth that I care much either.

You are a terrorist sympathizer, and your posts as of recently have been way to political despite warnings.

I won't go for your flame bait, and infact, if I do anything, it will be to recomend you to be banned.

[CoryHolmes]

The point of Macross is to change the sensabilities of the person behind the gun, not to distract them so you can shoot them.

That's exactly what they did in SDF Macross, using Minmay's song. Only in DYRL and later shows was that changed.

[Agent ONE]

The point of Macross is to change the sensabilities of the person behind the gun, not to distract them so you can shoot them.

That's exactly what they did in SDF Macross, using Minmay's song. Only in DYRL and later shows was that changed.

I'd say it was a little of both in SDF-M.

[CoryHolmes]

The point of Macross is to change the sensabilities of the person behind the gun, not to distract them so you can shoot them.

That's exactly what they did in SDF Macross, using Minmay's song. Only in DYRL and later shows was that changed.

I'd say it was a little of both in SDF-M.

True enough. Use the music to distract the Zentradi during the Biggest of Big Fights , thus making it easier to blow them to bits.

Later on, the music (and the whole idea of culture) was able to pacify some of the Zentradi (as seen during Minmay's private concert. Millia is a good example, too).

It's just that DYRL, Mac7, and now Macross Zero, have all discarded that first idea and gone straight with the mind-altering affects of music, taking it to an almost mystical level (Basara's singing is a good example of this, same thing with Sara's singing and the flowers).