"Star Trek Movie Syndrome" befalls Macross?

[Blaine23]

10 minutes and it's ass as opposed to "ownage."

Sorry. Just continue watching the old shows and let those who want to enjoy it giggle at you.

Or you could become obsessed with it and dog it constantly like AgentONE.

It's hard to say which path you'll choose... but I can tell you that the Agent has pretty much got the market cornered on M7 hate. Nobody does it better, indeed.

[Agent ONE]

10 minutes and it's ass as opposed to "ownage."

Sorry. Just continue watching the old shows and let those who want to enjoy it giggle at you.

Or you could become obsessed with it and dog it constantly like AgentONE.

It's hard to say which path you'll choose... but I can tell you that the Agent has pretty much got the market cornered on M7 hate. Nobody does it better, indeed.

Thank you... I DO aim to entertain.

I should say that I hated M7 so much I wanted to kill someone 10 min into it. But I decided to keep going anyway, and I watched the whole thing, even the "movie" and Dynamite. And after all that I hated it slightly less than just after the first 10 min.

After seeing it all I would tell anyone that if you are going to watch it, decide to see the whole thing. And if not, just aviod it all together. If you only see the begining you will probably fly to Japan and attempt to kill some people.

[bandit29]

I always thought M7 was the Star Trek Voyager of the Macross universe...in other words mostly garbage and failing to live up to its potential. Macross 7 has a few bright spots but overall its not very good.

but you should watch more than just 10 minutes though before you make such bold claims.

[lord_breetai]

I always thought M7 was the Star Trek Voyager of the Macross universe...in other words mostly garbage and failing to live up to its potential. Macross 7 has a few bright spots but overall its not very good.

but you should watch more than just 10 minutes though before you make such bold claims.

I can count the number of voyager episodes that I actually liked on my fingers... give Mac 7 some credit people!

[ewilen]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids. Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

[KingNor]

You gave it 10 minutes? Geez, you didn't even try. Sad....

yeah, i'm not for or against m7 but really, how can you judge an entire serise off of 10 min of one show??

imho the first 3 futuramas were pretty weak but its one of my favorite serise.

this thread only gets 2.3 grams of respect from me on the grounds that not enough effort was taken by the poster.

[Wabbit]

You gave it 10 minutes? Geez, you didn't even try. Sad....

yeah, i'm not for or against m7 but really, how can you judge an entire serise off of 10 min of one show??

imho the first 3 futuramas were pretty weak but its one of my favorite serise.

this thread only gets 2.3 grams of respect from me on the grounds that not enough effort was taken by the poster.

I loved Futurama from the very first few minutes of episode 1. The Suicide Booth with Fry and Bender crancked me up!

[yellowlightman]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids.  Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't  .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

Kawamori has been saying that he has no intention of continuing the Hikaru/Lisa/Minmay story for quite a while, seems doubtful to me.

[Radd]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids.  Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't  .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

Kawamori has been saying that he has no intention of continuing the Hikaru/Lisa/Minmay story for quite a while, seems doubtful to me.

Yeah, I'm with ewilen and yellowlightman. That comment about Hikaru and Misa goes against everything we've heard as Kawamori's official stance on the topic for ages now. It really needs a source to back it up.

[azrael]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids.  Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't  .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

Actually, all anime is aimed at kids. Just which part of the kid-spectrum are we talking about? 4-9 or 10-16?

[yellowlightman]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids.  Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't  .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

Actually, all anime is aimed at kids. Just which part of the kid-spectrum are we talking about? 4-9 or 10-16?

I think Ewilen was actually questioning the comment about Macross 7 originally intending to be about Hikaru and Misa.

But yeah, the vast majority of anime is aimed at kids. The simple reason is because kids buy toys and merchandise, and merchandise and toys get anime funded. Sponsors want to be able to sell merchandise based on a series, which is why Gundam has so many frickin' mobile suits and Macross has transforming Valkyrie: it's a gimmick to get kids to buy more toys.

In the 80's when OVA's were first catching on they were appealing to creators because they didn't require the gobs of money that a TV series or movie did, and thus they could be made with fewer sponsors. Fewer sponsors equals less requirements for merchandise from the creators and gives them more freedom, which is why you see weird anime like Genocyber and M.D. Geist which wouldn't have been able to be produced in other forms.

[Renato]

Macross 7 was aimed at kids.  Oringinally it was going to feature hikaru and misa being found by fleet 7 but it didn't  .

First I've heard that tidbit. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide a source?

Actually, all anime is aimed at kids. Just which part of the kid-spectrum are we talking about? 4-9 or 10-16?

I think Ewilen was actually questioning the comment about Macross 7 originally intending to be about Hikaru and Misa.

But yeah, the vast majority of anime is aimed at kids. The simple reason is because kids buy toys and merchandise, and merchandise and toys get anime funded. Sponsors want to be able to sell merchandise based on a series, which is why Gundam has so many frickin' mobile suits and Macross has transforming Valkyrie: it's a gimmick to get kids to buy more toys.

In the 80's when OVA's were first catching on they were appealing to creators because they didn't require the gobs of money that a TV series or movie did, and thus they could be made with fewer sponsors. Fewer sponsors equals less requirements for merchandise from the creators and gives them more freedom, which is why you see weird anime like Genocyber and M.D. Geist which wouldn't have been able to be produced in other forms.

Agreed. Remember that Macross Plus had virtually no merchandise when it was released other than the soundtracks and some rare SHE kits. It is only recently that Yamato and Hasegawa turned up.

[Keith]

Meh, I don't need to prove myself, everyone know's I'm the biggest M7 fan around. Those who dislike it, do so because of it's more overt "anti-war" message. Those who like it understand that the very same message has been there all along through Macross, even in Plus.

It's a very well put together series, great plot mislead at the beginning, even better character developement & interaction through out, great comedy, great drama, & great music. Everything some choose to write off as "silly" is logically explained during the course of the show, and of course it was created by the original Macross staff.

Most importantly, it does what every good sequel must do, which is keep context with what came before, expand upon it, & grow with new aspects.

[azrael]

Meh, I don't need to prove myself, ...

Translation: I came up with that one just to mess with you guys.

[Final Vegeta]

Yeah, I'm with ewilen and yellowlightman. That comment about Hikaru and Misa goes against everything we've heard as Kawamori's official stance on the topic for ages now. It really needs a source to back it up.

What I've heard is that Macross 7 was supposed to be how original Macross TV continued (had not been shortened), although with several changes. Maybe it's only a rumor, but at least this seems believable.

FV

[Sundown]

Meh, I don't need to prove myself, everyone know's I'm the biggest M7 fan around. Those who dislike it, do so because of it's more overt "anti-war" message.

Negatory. Lots who dislike M7 have no problems with the message or how overt it might be. Only its presentation-- the mecha designs, the monster designs, the corniness of singing valks with boobs. In some sense and to some folks it actually cheapens its own message by portraying it with such corniness, with a format and style that seemed more focused on pushing merchandise and J-pop than peace. Let's not confuse corny, campy, and over the top with "overt". And let's not bring up the "you hate it only because you don't understand it" argument again, okay?

-Al

[lord_breetai]

Meh, I don't need to prove myself, everyone know's I'm the biggest M7 fan around. Those who dislike it, do so because of it's more overt "anti-war" message. Those who like it understand that the very same message has been there all along through Macross, even in Plus.

I don't think one should claim to be the biggest and the bestest... I'm not saying that I could take your title but just cause you are the most vocal supportor of it on this board dosn't mean your the biggest M7 fan...

And yes I agree with your point though... Macross 7 just has a different way of saying war bad. Macross showed the effects of war on peoples lives (and the gruesome deaths we saw of some of the civies)... Macross 7 does that and makes a good point... what would you rather do fight for you life? or listen to kick arse music.

Edit: Your arguing about which Macross is best and if M7 is good or not is pointless... listen to Basra's song.

FIRE....

Edited October 6, 2004 by lord_breetai

[Chronocidal]

I have to agree with that.. while the story in M7 isn't at all bad compared with some stuff I've seen, the way it's presented is kinda goofy at times. In SDF, the Valk's were purely military vehicles, fighters in a war. The only reason Macross didn't fall victim to what I'm going to dub the "Giant Fighting Robot Fallacy" was because there were actually giant aliens to fight. M7 kind of loses that.. suddenly, some of the Valks are personal vehicles to paint and customize as you see fit.. I'm making a big assumption here, since I haven't seen any giant aliens in M7, so the GFRF appears to be in effect. That may change later, but so far the aliens are the same size as humans. Plus, there is never... EVER... EVER any reason that a giant fighting robot needs boobs. Call them speakers (another joke, since sound doesn't transmit in space anyway ) or sensors (lol) or whatever you want, but they're still boobs.

I guess I can understand people wanting to customize their vehicles.. but oy.. there is such a thing as too much customizing. Course, on the flip side of that.. you're giving a transforming fighter/mecha to a 17 year old pop-singer who's still in the middle of puberty. If Mylene were anything like my sister, she would've plastered it with Happy Bunny stickers, or painted it up to look like Orlando Bloom as Legolas. Given the alternative, it could've been a lot worse than it was. Knowing the female population at my high school, they probably would've come up with everything from Stripper Valks to Cheerleader Valks... which kind of explains the mentality of this picture, but hardly excuses it.

[yellowlightman]

Yeah, I'm with ewilen and yellowlightman. That comment about Hikaru and Misa goes against everything we've heard as Kawamori's official stance on the topic for ages now. It really needs a source to back it up.

What I've heard is that Macross 7 was supposed to be how original Macross TV continued (had not been shortened), although with several changes. Maybe it's only a rumor, but at least this seems believable.

FV

Not story wise, more in terms of themes and ideas. Egan Loo talked about it at MW Con3 I remember, and he said soemthing to the effect that it used some ideas that they were originally going to implement in the original Macross series (Sp-sp-sp-spritua?), but not exact plot points. If that makes sense.

[ewilen]

the "Giant Fighting Robot Fallacy"

I agree that Macross (SDF and DYRL) did the best job of avoiding the GFRF. M+ avoids it as well to an extent, since it does show Isamu fighting Zentradi (at least in the OAV). As for M7, yes, the basic idea of transforming valks requires some more suspension of disbelief. It can be explained, I think, by a couple points. First, the colonization fleets had no idea what they might be facing. At least in DYRL, it is stated that the galaxy is dotted with Zentradi and Meltrandi battlefleets. In the SDF Macross continuity, regardless of whether the bulk of Zentradi forces were wiped out in SW1, it's known that the Supervision Army is still out there, and it consists at least partly of Zentran-sized giants. Second, as we've discussed a couple times in the past, there may be tactical benefits of variable fighters which were only discovered after they were developed. This may be a bit of a stretch, but it's not much worse than the notion that you would really need a giant robot to fight a giant humanoid. (Essentially the same point applies to M0, which has as one of its premises the notion that the VF's are fundamentally superior to normal fighters.)

Second, about the customization, I think you've made the point quite well--the boobs and faces and crazy paint jobs are just what you get when you hand a hot jet to a teenage rock 'n roller.

Not sure about the speakers/sound in space issue--at least up to the point I've watched, Basara always shoots speaker pods into the enemy ships and transmits his music through them, except when he's inside City Seven.

[azrael]

the mecha designs, the monster designs, the corniness of singing valks with boobs. In some sense and to some folks it actually cheapens its own message by portraying it with such corniness, with a format and style that seemed more focused on pushing merchandise and J-pop than peace. Let's not confuse corny, campy, and over the top with "overt"...

Great, now we've come down to boobs. Now I know this thread has lost all meaning.

[Kamineko]

I'm trying to figure out the connection of all this boob discussion with the comparison of Macross befalling the "Star Trek Movie Syndrome". I'm all for boobs, err, the talk of . . . lets get back on topic!

[Chronocidal]

Lol.. yeah, good point, that was pretty off the topic here.. I think it got linked in with the idea that M7 was on the "bad' pile of Macross.

But that is a good point about the robots... having seen giant aliens, I guess the best option is to be prepared for anything. Besides, after training pilots for years on the techniques of controlling a mech, it makes sense to keep them in the fleet, keep making them, and just keep the pilots flying them. Once you implement a new type of weapon, it would take serious and costly changes to remove it again, both tactically, and monetarily.

[KingNor]

I wathched SDF:Macross. Top tier. I watched Macross Plus. More ownage. I watched *10* mins of Mac7 and its ass.

Am I nuts, or does the Macross series alternate between genius and crap, like the Star Trek movies alternate between good and bad?

Someone tell me I'm nuts.

well it goes: SDF, DYRL, M7, M+, M0

so...... ONE out of five serise you don't like. how is that the Startrek syndrom?

[Radd]

I wathched SDF:Macross. Top tier. I watched Macross Plus. More ownage. I watched *10* mins of Mac7 and its ass.

Am I nuts, or does the Macross series alternate between genius and crap, like the Star Trek movies alternate between good and bad?

Someone tell me I'm nuts.

well it goes: SDF, DYRL, M7, M+, M0

so...... ONE out of five serise you don't like. how is that the Startrek syndrom?

Especially when there are plenty of die-hard fans of the show you happen not to like. Shall we go round up the die-hard fans for Star Trek V, or Insurrection?

[azrael]

Especially when there are plenty of die-hard fans of the show you happen not to like. Shall we go round up the die-hard fans for Star Trek V, or Insurrection?

You do and I'll make you listen to every Reba West-song on the Robotech soundtrack.

On second thought, go ahead, I'm in a torturing-mood tonight. Better yet, Star Trek V marathon!

[Gaijin]

Deja Vu....I coulda sworn I read this thread somewhere before.

[Sundown]

I'm trying to figure out the connection of all this boob discussion with the comparison of Macross befalling the "Star Trek Movie Syndrome". I'm all for boobs, err, the talk of . . . lets get back on topic!

Connection. Easy. Just like boobs, I prefer my Macrosses and my Star Treks in even numbers.

-Al

[rehnvall]

SF is not realistic but it can be realistic within the own movie-"laws".

Example: In gudam they have a good explanation why they aim manual, but not in star wars, even then they bild advanced robots.

In macross 7 whay did the militery need Basra, use a record like they did in macross 2.....

[Gui]

Because the record has no heart: to be effective, the song must come from the heart... This is the reason why the other band's songs cannot affect the protodevilns, because they don't bring any emotions, they don't have a real spiritia

I think it's one of the reasons why people don't like M7: they don't get the thing that art is supposed to come from the heart to be 'real'. This is a very asian way to consider things btw, this 'from the heart' thing...

[Prime]

I just found M7 to be a little too "out there" for me. I hated the songs, and I just couldn't get into the characters and mecha, mainly because the other series do such a good job of making everything seem plausible.

That being said, I don't mind Kawamori trying different things. I might not like everything, but it prevents the genre from becoming stagnant.

[lord_breetai]

Because the record has no heart: to be effective, the song must come from the heart... This is the reason why the other band's songs cannot affect the protodevilns, because they don't bring any emotions, they don't have a real spiritia

I think it's one of the reasons why people don't like M7: they don't get the thing that art is supposed to come from the heart to be 'real'. This is a very asian way to consider things btw, this 'from the heart' thing...

hmmm... I think that's very human not just asian, I certainly got it (but apparantly after years and years of exposing myself to Japanese culture and language and stuff... I'm told that I think very Japanese-like in a lot of ways).

And recordings did have some effect... it started rehabilitating the victims of the rays and jump started the captured pilots memory... but Miriya knew that a live preformance would work better.... As Basara himself said "The Burning heart of passion that's singing!"

[Sundown]

I think it's one of the reasons why people don't like M7: they don't get the thing that art is supposed to come from the heart to be 'real'. This is a very asian way to consider things btw, this 'from the heart' thing...

I seriously doubt asian culture has a monopoly of the concept that art's a form of expression from the heart or soul. That's hardly unique.

M7? I plenty get it. Well, I suppose maybe it's because I'm asian. But I still don't dig it so far, outside of some of the character interactions.

Once again, from the top. Lots, maybe even most, of those who don't like M7 "get" it fine. M7 fans themselves say that the message is pretty overt and plain. It's not the message they don't get. It's not the concept they don't get. It's the kiddy-aesthetics, boobs, corn, and camp in spades that they object to in their Macross.

It matters what you say as much as how you say it. As much as I personally dig the idea of love, goodness, truth, honor... if it's expressed poorly or in a way I'm not receptive to, even if I completely embrance its values and message, even if I can nod to its principles... I'm still going to call the presentation and form of expression for what it is. Something can still suck when trying to speak my language.

-Al

[treatment]

Because the record has no heart: to be effective, the song must come from the heart... This is the reason why the other band's songs cannot affect the protodevilns, because they don't bring any emotions, they don't have a real spiritia

I think it's one of the reasons why people don't like M7: they don't get the thing that art is supposed to come from the heart to be 'real'. This is a very asian way to consider things btw, this 'from the heart' thing...

jesting or not, that's the most ridiculous excuse i've read here to date.

[bsu legato]

This is a very asian way to consider things btw, this 'from the heart' thing... 

jesting or not, that's the most ridiculous excuse i've read here to date.

When it comes to Macross 7 threads, it's pretty much a given somebody will use that. Other posts typical of these topics, in no particular order...

- you're not smart enough to understand M7

- you hated M7 'cuz you're an evil warmonger

- Gundam has newtypes, therefore spiritia is ok

- J-pop is awesome, and you're stupid if you hate it

- Basara is the best character in the history of fiction!