F-14

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

just curious to know which version of the F-14 was used in Macross Zero...a friend of mine told me it was probably the D but another friend told me it was the A....i'm just really confused and would like to know

also, i already bought the F-14D kit to convert into the Macross Zero F-14 (yeah, my dumb butt waited until now to ask lol)

anyways, thanks for the help!

EDIT: the kit i bought is at 1/48 scale not at 1/72 like the current Hasegawa Mac-0 F-14 kit

Edited September 14, 2003 by Dat Pinche Haro!

[captain america]

Hi Haro.

They seem to be using the F-14A, as Hasegawa has already released the kit in 1/72. No idea why though; the A model is practically out of service.

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

thanks for that

i personally think the D would've been better suited for the OVA but hey, you can complain cuz at least we're gettin' new macross stuff soon :D

[0Coota0]

thanks for that

i personally think the D would've been better suited for the OVA but hey, you can complain cuz at least we're gettin' new macross stuff soon :D

I would guess it's the D (or a later model, Macross does take place in the future) but, I think Haswega was just to lazy to bother changing their model kit and decided it was easier to put a new decal sheet in with their F-14A and change their boxart

[trueblueeyes]

I know the Hase model is an F-14A, but I am pretty sure Shin's plane in MO is an F-14D. Can someone clear this up? ...paging David Hingten...

...Edit to add: Avoid the Hasegawa M0 F-14! It is an awful kit that doesn't even have recessed panel lines. Like OCootaO said, it is just an old Hase kit with a new decal sheet. So, unless you want to pay that much for decals or you have the time to sand off and rescribe all those raised panel lines...forget this Hase kit! Just a word of advice.

Edited September 14, 2003 by trueblueeyes

[Skull Leader]

Unless I am very much mistaken, the squadron that uses F-14s in Macross Zero is using F-14D Super Tomcats.

The hase model is highly innaccurate... unless you got it just for the decals, I'd reccomend a different F-14 model.

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

funny thing is...Hasegawa already has a F-14D model kit.....they should've just used that one!!!

honestly, i wouldn't mind paying a little more just so i could have an ACCURATE kit <_<

oh yeah...can someone make me the decals for the Mac 0 F-14? it's in 1/48 scale...PM me if you know someone who can help

Edited September 14, 2003 by Dat Pinche Haro!

[Commander McBride]

funny thing is...Hasegawa already has a F-14D model kit.....they should've just used that one!!!

honestly, i wouldn't mind paying a little more just so i could have an ACCURATE kit

oh yeah...can someone make me the decals for the Mac 0 F-14? it's in 1/48 scale...PM me if you know someone who can help

Trust me, you're not the first one to mention that. It's especially bad, because the F-14 kit Hasegawa used for the M0 F-14 is a really old kit, too. Raised panel lines, even. They've done several since, including an F-14D, which is many times better. But David Hingtgen knows the whole deal.

[wm cheng]

Hey there,

I too agree that I believe that its a F-14D, the shots of the tail-cone shows the newer engines, unlike the traditional distinctive bell-shaped cones of the older F-14 engines. Yes, I know the old Hasegawa kit is really bad - to that end I did a bunch of research and opened a bunch of boxes at the local hobby store and ended up with what I think of as the best F-14 kit in 1/72 scale that I have come across. This is a limited edition Hasegawa kit - additionally, I was looking for the jolly rogers squadron to eventrually place this model next to Roy Focker's VF-0 whenever I get these things completed.

This kit had all recessed moldings and bolts whenever approporate in true Hasegawa form. It comes with very clean and crisp decals by Cartograf (very high quality) and photo-etched parts for the canopy rails, cockpit interior and afterburner cans. I know there are some companies that list 1/72 scale photo-etched parts, but if you try to purchase them, they are very rare and hard to come by - this kit includes them! The up side, the wings are molded in separate pieces so that the forward slats can be built extended and the rear flaps can be built lowered - now the down side is that because the wings are so over-engineered, they do not sweep forward or back - you have to choose to have it fully forward or swept back. Unfortunately its an A variant, but with the optional parts to make it B and if you can get the proper tailcones, it might even become a D, since I see the proper gunport vents on the supplied sprue. Unfortunately, there are no missiles just the underside tanks, you need the Hasegawa missile set to complete this bird. Overall, the detail is excellent - more in keeping with a 1/48 than such a deminuitive 1/72 scale and I would recommend this kit highly to anyone looking for a F-14 kit especially if you can find it.

[wm cheng]

Look how many clear parts there are - all the nav lights and gear lights are represented here.

[wm cheng]

And of course the photo-etched parts. Now I just need to find myself a set of decent 1/72 resin seats.

[Skull Leader]

*sneaks down to his local hobby store to see if he can find one of these badboys*

kitbashing that with a cheaper 1/72 scale F-14D shouldn't be a problem... although you can almost bank on the D kit being of lesser quality and detail than the Hase kit.

[David Hingtgen]

Ack, wait for me! (Or just email me if it's important).

Anyways....

1. Shin flies an F-14D with an F-14A's cockpit. So you've got to kitbash no matter what you buy.

2. 99.9% of F-14D kits have the wrong rear fuselage.

3. Only the newest, latest Hasegawa F-14D's have the correct fuselage. No other manufacturer, and even early Hase F-14D's are wrong.

4. Yes, the engines are the main difference between the A and the B/D, but there's more than that.

5. Namely, the rear fuselage nib fairings. And they're an utter b*tch to try to correct. I've only seen one person ever do it, in Fine Scale Modeler. If you're good with sculpting and putty, go ahead and try.

6. Don't forget the ECM antennas on the rear stabs, the nose gear door, the chin pod, the wing glove vanes, and the nose pitot.

7. Your best bet by far is to actually buy an F-14B. F-14B's and D's are VERY similar, but the B has the same cockpit as the A. So you effectively have an "Almost D with a A's cockpit"--which is what Shin flies. Just shave off the ECM bumps under the glove, and get the dual chin-pod, and you've got Shin's plane. (Assuming you start with an ACCURATE F-14B).

8. F-14B kits have the same problems as F-14D kits--wrong rear fuselage nib fairings. And they're much more likely to have the wrong gun ports too, since WAY too many manufacturers think you can take an A and change the engines to get a B. Nope, B and D are far more similar than A and B.

9. Think I'll mention it again--it's not just the engines, the rear fuselage is different too. You can't just put brand-new GE engines that are 4 feet shorter than the original 30-year-old PW's and expect it fit, do you? Nope, you need to change a few parts around to blend the new engines into the old engine bays.

10. I'll review the various kits out there if you want, just tell me what scale you want, and what you want to model, and I'll tell you what to get.

PS--I know off-hand that the Hasegawa VF-101 '97 OCeana NAS kit is one of the few accurate F-14B's out there.

[hellohikaru]

Based on what Dave Hintgen said above i think you might find the old monogram 1/48 F-14D kit very close indeed to the Shin MacZero F-14. It has the cockpit of the A(blind luck?) but the fuselage of the D. Not sure about total accuracy and lack of maczero decals. Consider getting some AMRAAMS too for your Tomcat.

Hasegawa's offer even had the old Sparrow missiles with it...i thought in such an advance timeline AMRAAM would have replaced it throughout.

[David Hingtgen]

The OLD Monogram F-14D, or the re-release? I know they both still have the wrong fuselage fairings/nibs. (Nose gear door may or may not be correct, very few reviewers even know to look for it) But I do think that it is as you said--the previous release had the wrong cockpit (which is right for Shin). But everyone was disappointed that it (the newer release) still had the fuselage fairings of an F-14A. (And if those are wrong, you can be 100% sure that part of the engines are wrong too---most companies only replace the NOZZLE, while leaving the aft stages those of the PW--there's a lot of "F-14D" models with PW parts in their GE engines)

Frankly, it's much easier to take a B and make a D's chin-pod (just add a tube), than take an inaccurate D (with it's chin pod) and try to modify the fuselage into a correct D.

Finally---F-14's don't have AMRAAM's. That's why no kit includes them. They were supposed to be the first plane in the USA to get them, but since Cheney killed the F-14, they cancelled the program, so even Super Tomcats still carry Sparrows. (Super Tomcats have carried AMRAAMS and fired them, but only for tests---no in-service Tomcat can equip them)

Edited September 15, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[trueblueeyes]

Told you David would know! Thanks for the info! BTW, are there any really good 1/48 F-14B (or even D) kits that you can recommend? I'm not a stickler for perfection so I will even settle for damn close! I thought the Monogram 1/48 F-14 had raised panel lines so I didn't get that one...Am I wrong about that?

Help!

Melissa

[hellohikaru]

Dave..in-service Tomcats not being able to launch AIM-120 may be true but this is anime and i trust the show more than hasegawa.

[hellohikaru]

hey Dave is the Revell 1/32 F-14D Tomcat accurate ?Until now i have been able to resist buying it but i am seriously into the Tamiya kit. Hopefully a D or at least a B will be released by them soon. But even the Tamiya kit has some raised lines.

[David Hingtgen]

I know the M0 F-14 has AMRAAM's--I was just explaining why the kit (and every kit) doesn't have them. If Hasegawa didn't even make the right type of F-14, they certainly would not include the correct missiles as extra parts!

Revell F-14D is the same as the Monogram F-14D. They are little more than 20-year-old F-14A's with new nozzles, and new cockpits. All the little things are wrong---nose door, fairings, wing gloves, etc.

Which Tamiya kit? The 1/32 F-14A Black Knights that just came out? It's an A, every kit of an A is correct for SOME type of A. (Most A kits are 1970's A, not 1980-2000+ A) Though the new Tamiya A is a late, current A.

Generally, every Italeri and Revell/Monogram kit of an F-14A+/B/D in any scale has something wrong with it. (Always fuselage fairings, often ECM bumps) Hasegawa and Fujimi are your only real choices for an accurate A+/B/D. (A+ *is* a B, it's just that a lot of kits still say A+ instead of B--and the Italeri 1/48 A+ is really, really, 100% totally wrong for an A+ --but shave off the ECM bumps and you get a wonderful kit of an early 70's A, or leave them and use the alternate chin pod for a mid-80's F-14A--can't do late 80's or later, for it has the early gun vents)

Finally, I do believe that ANY Hasegawa F-14D could do Shin's (except for the cockpit) since he doesn't have LANTIRN or TARPS, which are the main problems for trying to do a standard "F-14D on a carrier in service" model.

Edited September 15, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[hellohikaru]

Thanks Dave

Roger that on the 1/48 Revell/Monogram line.

I though Revell had a 1/32 line for the F-14 too. Will look for screenshotss if you need.

Not sure about the Black Knights Tamiya 1/32 but version 1994 IIRC had decal cockpit panels which are simply too poor for a kit that price. But the Tamiya kits now being manufactured in the Phillipines should make them a bit cheaper somewhat.

So Shin's F-14 is more of a fictional B+ version...maybe Kawamori was thinking ..hey the UN is short on F-14D airframes so why not just go to the boneyard and convert some As.

[Skull Leader]

I could be wrong, but aren't there just about as many A+ and B F-14s still in service combined as there are D models? Given the timeframe that the war would've taken place (just a few short years from now, hypothetically) Many of those airplanes would be on their way out. The only ones left in service would probably be the D/Super D models. It seems to me that what Kawamorii was trying to portray was a Super Tomcat in it's final inception (had the program not been chopped... indeed he probably had some concept art in the works before the F-14 program was finally axed and the Super Tomcat was still a "go".) I would think the program must still be going full-steam at this point in the Macross timeline (or preparing to end and be replaced by the VF series)

There IS a note in the compendium on the F-14s used in Macross Zero though...

PROGRAMME: First flight of development aircraft 1970 December 21. Service life extended with upgrades implementing Overtechnology.

So more advanced technology was used in the last stages of the F-14. The compendium lists the model used as the F-14A+Kai(custom).... it's a mythical version that does not exsist. In fact, they still call it the "Grumman" F-14 instead of "Northrop-Grumman". So it's definate that Kawamorii dragged the F-14 into a separate timeline to develop along lines it never will in real life.

Dave's right, a kitbash would be a requirement, as no model of this model (no pun intended) exsists.

[David Hingtgen]

D is the rarest of all Tomcats, A is the most common.

As for "Super"---the rule is the engines. If it has GE engines, than it's a Super Tomcat. That means A+/B, and the D. (Way too many people think D=Super. Nope, B and later is Super)

Anyways---some F-14D's ARE built from old A's! Not many, but they exist. Most D's were built as D's, but a few are converted from A's.

And you can also make B's from A's. (which they did until the D came around, then they made A's into D's)

Production numbers (excluding Iran's):

637 F-14A's.

38 F-14B's.

37 F-14D's.

Super Tomcats are RARE as you can see. To get the "real" numbers, there were 48 A's converted to B's, and 18 A's converted to D's. But A still outnumbers B and D combined.

With VF-154 (the last user of the A model) effectively gone (came home, will switch to Super Hornet before next major deployment), the current fleet is as follows:

4 Squadrons of B's, 2 of D's. Assume 12 planes per squadron.

Strange that they call it the F-14A+ Kai. It REALLY, REALLY should be F-14B Kai. You don't just ignore name changes. You don't see people saying TF-15A or TF-18A. It's F-15B and F/A-18B now. And NOBODY uses the old designations. (Yup, there didn't use to be an F-15B or 18B, they had different names)

Edited September 15, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[hellohikaru]

Isn't kai already meaning Plus or improved ?

F-14A+ Kai sounds like F-14A Plus Plus

[David Hingtgen]

Yes. Blame the Navy for having such a stupid designation. The differences between F-14A and A+ were more than what normally happens between plane variants, and I can't think of any reason to call it that. It'd be like calling the Super Hornets "F/A-18C+". It's a BIG change.

[Skull Leader]

So, maybe Kawamorii calling it the F-14A Kai is his way of simplifying it... chances are that the "kai" variant simply implies that is uses overtechnology.

So I have to wonder then, exactly what changes are made in the kai variant? Surely engines get upgraded, but what else I wonder....

[Nied]

So, maybe Kawamorii calling it the F-14A Kai is his way of simplifying it... chances are that the "kai" variant simply implies that is uses overtechnology.

So I have to wonder then, exactly what changes are made in the kai variant? Surely engines get upgraded, but what else I wonder....

Well as David pointed out it gets many of the external upgrades of the D (most notebly the dual TCS IRST chin pod) but retains the original A cockpit. My theory is that the animators screwed up, they wanted Shin's mount to be an F-14D, but they got bad references and put in a perfect A cockpit. Then after realizing their mistake called it an A+ Kai and were done with it.

If you want an in story explanation, you can say that the UN Spacy used overtechnology to very cheaply upgrade the US Navy's quite large F-14A Fleet to a modified B standard (hence the new chin pod) to bulk up it's air arm while wating for all these new designs to come out.

Edited September 17, 2003 by Nied

[hellohikaru]

I wished the animators had taken the time to redo the cockpit scene rather than come up with a ridiculuos explanation like F-14A+ Kai crap.

Anyway how does soft overtechnology actually improve an existing design ?I don't any improvements besides the use of more advanced flightsuits ....perhaps it allows for structural upgrades, lighter materials, better targeting computer.etc

[Skull Leader]

what other upgrades would you need? They were simply experimenting to see what would work, probably.

[David Hingtgen]

An F-14 with thrust vectoring (using ACTIVE nozzles--any Super Tomcat could be easily retrofitted) would have an AMAZING roll capability, due to its very widely spaced engines. (It's nigh-pointless to try to use vectoring for roll on say an F-15, F-18, or F-22---but it'd be decent on an F-23 and awesome on an F-14)

[Nied]

I wished the animators had taken the time to redo the cockpit scene rather than come up with a ridiculuos explanation like F-14A+ Kai crap. 

Anyway how does soft overtechnology  actually improve an existing design ?I don't any improvements besides the use of more advanced flightsuits ....perhaps it allows for structural upgrades, lighter materials, better targeting computer.etc

It may be that they used overtechnology in the manufacturing process to make it much faster and cheaper. The actualy plane may have had very little overtechnology put into it. Though I could see them putting in a new hypercarbon wing box to replace the titanium one. Bring the flight hours up.

Edited September 18, 2003 by Nied

[Skull Leader]

An F-14 with thrust vectoring (using ACTIVE nozzles--any Super Tomcat could be easily retrofitted) would have an AMAZING roll capability, due to its very widely spaced engines.

LOL, you mean "vomit-inducing"! Could you just imagine!?? Like sticking yourself in a centerfuge...

[Apollo Leader]

Yes. Blame the Navy for having such a stupid designation. The differences between F-14A and A+ were more than what normally happens between plane variants, and I can't think of any reason to call it that. It'd be like calling the Super Hornets "F/A-18C+". It's a BIG change.

There was probably a good reason why the reengined and updated A models were originally called "A+" instead of "B".

Back during the 1970's, Grumman built, and flew, one F-14 that was designated as a "B" model. The F-14A's Pratt & Whitney TF-30's (which was also used on the F-111) was only meant as an interim engine. The single F-14B of the 1970's flew with the Pratt & Whitney F401 which was the intended powerplant for the Tomcat. But when all was said and done, all the A models ended up being equipped with the TF-30.

[David Hingtgen]

I'm well aware of F-14 design history. But why not call it F-14C then? (I can't recall the dates of the proposed C, maybe they'd have to go to D, and then what we call the D would be E). "+" is absolutely utterly unheard of. You simply don't do it. Not in WWII, not in the USAF, not the Warsaw Pact, not on Star Trek. + isn't an option, for any aircraft of any era in any service.

Edited September 18, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[Nied]

+ isn't an option, for any aircraft of any era in any service.

Except for the AV-8B!

[David Hingtgen]

Yaaargh! You got me. ::hangs head in shame::

It's still rare/odd/stupid. (Why not go to AV-8D?) Harriers have such a messed up designation scheme. B is way more advanced than C, B+ more advanced than that...