Possibilty of the VF-1

[Aurel Tristen]

Alright, given the fact that the VF-1 was modeled on the F-14, do you think the VF-1 is still a possible design even after the development of the F-22?

The VF-1 was based on in shape on the F-14 of the 70s-80s when the F-14 was in it's prime. Around twenty years later the F-14 is being phased out by the F/A-18 Hornet and eventually, the F-22.

Should the nations of the world somehow acquire the capability for a variable aircraft capable of transforming into a humanoid walker, do you think the VF-1 (or something like it) Is still possible given passive stealth construction?

I ask this because I was always wondering if Macross was still possible if, say, the SDF-1 landed in 2010 instead of 1999. If we had overtechnology today would we develop a transfomable non-stealth combat unit or do you think nations would shell out the extra money to make any variable craft full stealth?

I also asked because I wonder if a VF-1 re-design to make it look more 'stealthy' would be a more forseeable machine for the future.

I believe the VF-1 was made to look like a contemporary fighter. Also, the VF-1's stealth counterparts are the SW-XA I Schnee Blume design and the VF-0.

Hmmm....

[platypiman247]

and has anyone ever actually thought about it? i mean really, have you ever just thought about the mechanics involved in a moving robot? especially one that moves like a valk, or even a gundam for that matter, and now think about making that robot transform into a plane with all the areodynamics involved to make the plane fly? yeah it seems nice, but hell even with alien technology that is a tall order. especially when you think about it, the aliens didn't have transforming mechs, that was something we developed. the sdf-1 never was intended to transform, that was a biproduct of a missing fold generator.

Designing a bipedal mobile is not impossible if you do it right. A solid operating system would eliminate many of the potential problems since it would transfer simple pilot input into fluid movement and would be responsible for keeping the machine in balance and upright. Constructio is also feasible since we already are capable of fabricating the load bearing joints, hydralics and skeleton that would be needed in a patlabor style 1-story tall robot. Past that, its simply a matter of designing an effective control and sensor setup and slapping it on the skeleton, covering it all up with metal and Wallah! You have you're very own mobile suit!

Patlabor is a great example of what our very first mobile suits will probably look like and it depicts them in many situations & environments. If you have not seen the movie, I would definately recommend that you do since it is a great depiction of what our lives should be like now.

[kanedaestes]

sounds interesting

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

you know this is pointless, yes it is a dream of everyone's but the mechanics of it all are just to much, and are an impossiblity. i used to say that i would only join the military if a space craft from another world crash landed and offered us the technology to do such things, well now i am in the air force, and have come to my senses, besides, unless we are fighting giant aliens, battroid mode is useless.

thank god i'm not the onlly one on macrossworld whos not INSANE

an operational valkyrie in 5 years... comeon people...

I agree COMPLETELY with these guys but I shall chime in my 2 pesos

ok scenario shi*thot max jenius decides to dogfight in a modern day stealth fighter that is experimenting in variability.

-holy crap missles coming what toi do what to do!!

-uh GERWALK MODE yea....

ok the human body can withstand 9G's sustained........12 sustained could kill a person from what I have heard. Even with the seat reclined backwards 9-10 is preerred. Do you realize how much G force is working against those parts when merging into gerwalk>?

1-9 g turn

2-gerwalk mode, slam brakes at high speed, motion legs forward@high speed against high wind current.(NO DONT tell me someone would slow down THEN gerwalk...it dont work that way in macross does it? 1 sec transformations ar things of anime not reality. and plus do you know how long it takes a harrier to get to hover mode? A lot longer than everyhone thinks. VTOL isn't a fat procedure folks)

THAT alone should rip the legs off. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the plane outright stalled. So if turning into gerwalk itself is unrealistic I must concor that a fuill transformation would be even more pointless as well. See thats the great thing about anime. HAVING AN IMAGINATION FOR THINGS THAT WILL NEVER WORK IN REAL LIFE.

simple physics and common sense.

[kanedaestes]

amen

[eugimon]

well, there's also the question of where one could use gerwalk mode... that is, in barren wastelands only...

use it in urban settings and you would be leaving behind puddles of molten asphalt, and in areas with vegetation you would start fires all over the places.

there's a reason why modern military vehicles that can hover in place do not just use jets pointed down.

but this is topic is fast becoming a practicallity of mecha thread...

[Syngyne]

I can't remember who it was on here, but someone on this board pointed out a while back that going from fighter to gerwalk would basically cause the plane to flip over forwards. Something about the sudden drag caused by the legs dropping down, coupled with the force from the engines now pushing backwards/up.

[ewilen]

Well, there are a couple factors in defense of Gerwalk.

1) Who says that transition to Gerwalk generates over 9G's? Would a 9G speedbrake be useful in ACM? Probably not, but if you think a Cobra would be, then a Gerwalk Brake should be, too.

2) Stability all depends on the control software and the power of the vernier thrusters. If the latter are powerful enough, they should be able to stabilize the plane during transition to Gerwalk and while flying around in Gerwalk mode. (Do the verniers on a Valk use thrust redirected from the main engines, or do they use chemical rockets and/or compressed air? Anyone know?)

Eugimon has a good point, I think. What are the limitations on Harriers and (projected) on the F-35B?

Edited September 9, 2004 by ewilen

[Agent ONE]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

[Final Vegeta]

(Do the verniers on a Valk use thrust redirected from the main engines, or do they use chemical rockets and/or compressed air? Anyone know?)

Compendium in the VF-1 page says:

vernier thrusters with chemical fuel tanks in backpack section in GERWALK and Battroid modes

FV

[ewilen]

Thanks, FV.

[eugimon]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

it's summer. I have two weeks left before school starts up, my girl friend is visting family in the philipines.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think the practicality of the battroid mode would be in the stability and accurcy of aiming the gunpod imo. If the pilot is floating around in gerwalk they couldn't make accurate shots at many moving targets from all angles. (think about the advantage of the batroids tv camera head, as opposed to the gerwalk pilots window - less situational awareness in close encounter environments imo) think about what happens when mechs launch close range micromissles, you could transform to battroid, shoot them all down with a rapid spray from the gunpod and hope that all th targets when exploding, set off a chain reaction that blows them all up without having to individually avoid or go through them. Battroid would be the best mode to shoot down missles since you are staying still and have the best visibility and natural motion to target many things at once. Lining up accuracte shots is a cinch when the machine isn't constantly moving around and obstructing the gunpods ability to line up shots because you just so have to be facing the targets to even begin to shoot it in other modes. Battroid mode offers a wide angle defence and works best for up-close threats or to spread as much fire into as wide an area as possible to defend against numerous smaller objects getting in the way. (I'm assuming the battroid has just transformed and is floating in mid air)

On the ground in battroid mode the pilot would have the cover of buildings in a built up area (and no fear of crashing into things) with the assurance the mech hands is kept steady enough to fine aim sensitive areas and weak points of the enemy that are just not possible in fighter and gerwalk mode because of the size of the target to aim at. Think also about stealth and the advantage of being still and not giving away your position through unecessary acitivty. (turn the machine off if you need to. Radar would be useless at certain distance)

Also tanks wouldn't be able to shoot a fast moving target, and assuming the battroid can run (I mean really run, not jog like the jogging robots we are seeing today) it would be easier to dodge fire while simultaneously shooting at the same time and performing humanlike manuevers that the more clumsy destroid just wouldn't be able to do. Doing several things at once: walking while aiming the gun, swiveling while firing; ..and at the same time moving the tv camera's head to spot movements in real time etc are all advantages of using a robot becuase it maps the motion of the human form which can do all tasks concurrently) A battroid would also have the advantage over gerwalk mode in that you could aim the gunpod in directions you aren't necessarily facing, increasing reaction speed in areas where the enemy could be hiding behind objects where gunning them down first and getting the first shot would be crucial. Strafing would also be second nature as opposed to a tank which needs to rotate its tracks first before being able to move from side to side. (simply put, tanks do not 'dodge')

I can even imagine vf1 in battroid freefalling from the sky, with wings opened up, head pointing down and shooting missiles before they even land. (a quicker form of paratrooping where they just drop from the sky quickly)

The human body is far more efficient at doing several things at once then your standard machine which moves "mechanically" and does things in steps one after another. Whereas the destroid looks like it would move slowly (like ripley's loader in aliens?) but pack better and heavier weapons, the battroid could run and if needs be, float with it's "jepack" on its back and thrusters on its feet to "skate" across the surface of the ground. (sort of like the way the Qrau is just a piece of armour or a "spacesuit" for a giant Zentreadi with massive thrust on it ) There is also the possbility of the boost jump (a really long jump with assistance from thrust) adding more maneuverability. We see zentreadi battle pods leaping in the air all the time.

There are probably instances where mapping the delicate motion of the human body and expressing that fine movment through complicated robotic movements that are seamless will add a responsiveness bonus and tax the driver/pilot less so he can begin to concentrate on more important things. When trying to control vehicles, you may need more than 1 guy to help with the controls and it's just not as intuitive as having 1 guy control the whole thing and do both tasks himself as if he *were* the mech. (no need for a "crew" when you become the thing and think as one)

All a battroid would need to do to kill a tank would be to squash it with its feet. Head lasers would just take out the lighter craft in the air which are flying around but that can't manever in built up areas without crashing into something. (unless the pilot is suicidal and assuming destroids haven't already shot it down, or other pilots in fighter mode aren't keeping them busy)

That's the advantage I see the battroid mode having, and we can all just say that alien tech brought ultra light materials. I mean really, didn't the remains of the Roswell UFO crash supposedly contain ultra light metals that almost practically floated? If the anime is sci fi it needs to have at least something to stir our imaginations and make us wonder. The closest thing we have in real life to alien tech is the possiblilty of the UFO crash at roswell and area 51 having access to real technology that is being reverse engineered. Assuming they are real things, we can assume unique things happen when alien tech is involved. (ie antigrav or gravity reduction lessening the g forces of the machines and pilots in them so they can move at amazing speeds while defying the known laws of physics ala like the ufo sightings people are getting used to seeing.)

Another advantage in being variable, (lets assume transforming was real for a second) is that even tanks take time to be transported from one location to another. Taking time means increased risk. Are they going to go anywhere if the enviroment is slopey and the terrain is uneven? They will be easy prey. Especially if the land threatens to get them bogged down. What if you are surrounded by mountainous area or even swamp? Mountains provide a natural barrier to tanks. People could place all sorts of traps for heavier, less mobile machines. But in gerwalk or battroid you could hover over the hills and uneven surface, boost-jump over minor slopes, and none of this affecting your ability to aim.

Helicopters don't seem so bad ass when you consider that battle pods could hide from them by submersing themselves underwater in the tv series. Sneaking on foot has its advantages especially if you are low in number and can't afford to be shot down by enemy anti air defenses.

Gerwalk mode? Lets just say you are stuck on 1 side of the mountain and need to pass quickly out of enemy territory... gerwalk mode would give you boost to fly across, avoiding a long journey over the mountain on foot. You could perform rescue operations in gerwalk mode that a helicopter wouldn't allow (how about having 1 arm firing a gunpod for cover fire while 1 hand is picking up important people as they are running away, as opposed to the wasted time it would take to winch them up and line your guns up with targets the old fashioned way?

I hate realism when taken to the extreme because it means people will apply only what only is known to exist of thier time period which puts limits of what is really possible instead of applying the creator's own "sci-fi rules" of the world that the characters live in and must play by for "comic book" realism. (hollywood always gets away with it unscathed, thanks to the matrix bringing over-stylised action sequences which are hard to believe) And to me, the importance of coolness supercedes the importance to stay as real as possible. For all we know, star trek type nanomachines will be a reality for us all where we swallow them as pills and they fix us up from the inside. The future is unpredictable.

Either the OT involves special ultra-light-but-super-strong materials or they've got some AG system to help defy gravity somehow or the aliens are just as backwards as us humans. I like to think the aliens are so far ahead of us that anything is possible. Concepts that don't make sense to us humans right now are merely the results of current understanding and the limits of teachings by other humans' discoveries from the past.

Edited September 19, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

[Lightning]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

here we go once again....

[Wabbit]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

here we go once again....

Why the hostillity?

[Gui]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

here we go once again....

Why the hostillity?

BECAUUUUUUUUSE!!!

[Lightning]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

here we go once again....

Why the hostillity?

BECAUUUUUUUUSE!!!

i didnt mean any hostility, it's because i know i've asked it about 11 times since September of '02, various powerplant questions since then, and i've seen about 100 questions like those asked by tons of people, so i was wondering why cant people just use the search function on this board at all before posting....

dont take it personally anybody...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Dude i totally agree. I do think most of us are a bit peeved when stuff like this gets brought up out of nowhere when its already been discussed.

[Wabbit]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Why is this thread still here?

I wonder the same thing...

here we go once again....

Why the hostillity?

BECAUUUUUUUUSE!!!

i didnt mean any hostility, it's because i know i've asked it about 11 times since September of '02, various powerplant questions since then, and i've seen about 100 questions like those asked by tons of people, so i was wondering why cant people just use the search function on this board at all before posting....

dont take it personally anybody...

I was a moderator once on a larger Dutch forum than this, and what I'd do was to close down double topics and put a link refering to the older topic and 'UT(F)S' in my closing reply. In a friendly tone mostly.

And often before people would turn hostile and flamed against new people who started a discussion that the veteran users had done it time and time over and feeling somewhat superior to n00bs and would not hestitate to show it.

All people were newbies once, just put a friendly reply that there was already a discussion about this and they would find it using the search like they should do (I can't find it though with keywords: possible transforming fighter/jet). Or put the link right here.

And not reply with, like: "Let's watch and see them make fools of themselves.", that can be found earlier this thread. That's really not helpfull at all.

If you find this sort of discussions about the possibility of a transforming plane utterly stupid, just stay away from it. Don't come back and nag about why it isn't closed yet like some people did (or do you crave attention?). It's not contributing to the discussion, how stupid you think it is. There're so many people and so many interests, they're bound to clash, but with modern technology like internetforums and the remote of your tv, you can choose to ignore it! Use that luxury!

Just an ex-moderator with his 2cts. Not mad, but surprised and disappointed at the childishness of some grown ups.

Edited September 22, 2004 by Wabbit

[Aztek]

I made a valk in a 3D prog and fly it around my comp when I get bored. That's as far as I've pursued this discussion. I'm in the Air Force now and if you've seen as many cracked ribs, spars, and bulkheads, stress cracks, corrosion, bird strikes, loose fasteners, delaminated topcoat and 5 minute flap retraction sequences using aux pumps you'd understand why this is so not going to happen anytime soon. Structurally, the metals and fastener techniques are still 1960/70's (minus composites and fibers - stealth) The powerplant isn't my cup of tea, but if you ever saw 50,000 or so pounds of thrust push an F-15 down the runway and were a little bit touched, then fire up DYRL and watch them dance about with god knows what under their hood. At the same time mind you, you have about a 1/4 million rivets and fasteners holding it all together.

But what if it's cast?

Casted metal cracks and is susceptible to fatigue. Sh#! happens when you fight zentraedi ...

What if they use a super high tech welding, bonding technique?

They crack too, and don't hold up too well when partially ground down from being slammed into a building.

I dunno, I've seen alot of sheeyaat in aircraft maintenance. But no valks yet. Never been to Tonopah yet though. Always a good time to request special duty ...

Edited September 22, 2004 by Aztek

[Lightning]

yea, stuff can get real ugly like u were saying, but im sure we can all agree that the valk mechanics/tech guys have a harder job than modern-day techs...

[Bluedeath]

I made a valk in a 3D prog and fly it around my comp when I get bored. That's as far as I've pursued this discussion. I'm in the Air Force now and if you've seen as many cracked ribs, spars, and bulkheads, stress cracks, corrosion, bird strikes, loose fasteners, delaminated topcoat and 5 minute flap retraction sequences using aux pumps you'd understand why this is so not going to happen anytime soon. Structurally, the metals and fastener techniques are still 1960/70's (minus composites and fibers - stealth) The powerplant isn't my cup of tea, but if you ever saw 50,000 or so pounds of thrust push an F-15 down the runway and were a little bit touched, then fire up DYRL and watch them dance about with god knows what under their hood. At the same time mind you, you have about a 1/4 million rivets and fasteners holding it all together.

But what if it's cast?

Casted metal cracks and is susceptible to fatigue. Sh#! happens when you fight zentraedi ...

What if they use a super high tech welding, bonding technique?

They crack too, and don't hold up too well when partially ground down from being slammed into a building.

I dunno, I've seen alot of sheeyaat in aircraft maintenance. But no valks yet. Never been to Tonopah yet though. Always a good time to request special duty ...

how about memory shape alloy?

it can be restoired to it's original foprm simply by heating it.

[KingNor]

"is it practical"

no no no no no no no no

even IF it were possible.. which it isn't.. IT SURE AS HELL WOUDLNT' BE PRACTICAL.

seriously now... if you wanted to debate how possible or cool a real valk would be thats fine, but this thread asking if its practical makes me feel like an uber star trek type psyco nerd.

its not. no. stop. cease!

[Jasonc]

Maybe this was covered already in this post, but the h. stabs. would be taken care of in the vector thrust, and the little wings that extend down and out on the legs.

I've been to that meeting at AX where those group of people are trying to create a real life mecha, and just to design that without transforming is hard enough. It comes down to metalurgy, and power output. The two sciences of metal and power just aren't where they could even conceive of a VF-1.

Now, if an SDF-1 crashed and all the technology was given us, if there was no threat of 50 foot aliens, the battroid function would be useless. GERWALK and fighter would definitely be gravy.

Would it REALLLLY be possible, not the way the anime portrays it.

Edited September 24, 2004 by Jasonc

[mk16]

Man all i want is an electronic transforming vf-1, something like those a 6 foot tall gundams, but full of servos and or hydraulics. slap on the motor control of those already walking robots in japan , if you havent noticed them, there everywere Oo, make it follow the control from a joystick. They do handle the walking by themselves, but there wont be need for the ai to figureout what it wants to do since that its yours to decide . The plane to battroid transformation wont be hard to implement, just make sure you hang it from some place high ^^;. heh and there we have it, a macross fanboys(me included) best wetdream come reallity.

[LORD KUNGFU]

yeah, its good to use the search function, but I was not particulary looking for this topic, and glad somebody brought it up. IF you dont like the topic, dont click on it. Has this topic been played out, ok, then dont read it. Damn. Simple, eh.

The technology for a transforming aircraft may or may not be possible. Nobody here knows, unless you work for NASA, Skunkworks, or some unidentified group working in Siberia developing the technology, nobody knows. And if we dont have it, we could come up with it, if we were focus on a transforming aircraft with all our resources, it could be made. Maybe not as swift or agile as a VF, but it would probably work. The main problem with a transforming acft. is that there is no point to it, so no company will spend the time or money to do it. A batteroid mode is totally pointless in our world today, except for sheer coolness.

[KingNor]

yeah, its good to use the search function, but I was not particulary looking for this topic, and glad somebody brought it up. IF you dont like the topic, dont click on it. Has this topic been played out, ok, then dont read it. Damn. Simple, eh.

The technology for a transforming aircraft may or may not be possible. Nobody here knows, unless you work for NASA, Skunkworks, or some unidentified group working in Siberia developing the technology, nobody knows. And if we dont have it, we could come up with it, if we were focus on a transforming aircraft with all our resources, it could be made. Maybe not as swift or agile as a VF, but it would probably work. The main problem with a transforming acft. is that there is no point to it, so no company will spend the time or money to do it. A batteroid mode is totally pointless in our world today, except for sheer coolness.

considering how had the japanise bust their asses to make those tiny walking robots (wich don't move at all like real people) and they BARELY work.. i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say... we don't have the technology to make transforming anything. atleast nothing that transforms into something that walks.

the rest of your post i agreewith :-) big robots will always be useless. there is just, quite literally, no reason to build on.

[LORD KUNGFU]

yeah, its good to use the search function, but I was not particulary looking for this topic, and glad somebody brought it up. IF you dont like the topic, dont click on it. Has this topic been played out, ok, then dont read it.  Damn. Simple, eh.

      The technology for a transforming aircraft may or may not be possible. Nobody here knows, unless you work for NASA, Skunkworks, or some unidentified group working in Siberia developing the technology, nobody knows. And if we dont have it, we could come up with it, if we were focus on a transforming aircraft with all our resources, it could be made. Maybe not as swift or agile as a VF, but it would probably work. The main problem with a transforming acft. is that there is no point to it, so no company will spend the time or money to do it. A batteroid mode is totally pointless in our world today, except for sheer coolness.

considering how had the japanise bust their asses to make those tiny walking robots (wich don't move at all like real people) and they BARELY work.. i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say... we don't have the technology to make transforming anything. atleast nothing that transforms into something that walks.

the rest of your post i agreewith :-) big robots will always be useless. there is just, quite literally, no reason to build on.

right, right. Im not saying that the technology totally exists. But, you dont know what you dont know. So there may be groups, or countries that may have certain technologies that we are unaware of. The thing with the Japanese robots that dont walk like exactly like a human, is that they are autonimus. But a VF would have a pilot controlling it. Also, the Japanese are a leader in technology today, but they like to showcase there technology. Other countries that were on the forefront of our modern techno driven world were Europe, Russia, USA...ect.....these countries dont usually show everybody there developments or secret prodjects. So what may lie out there is yet to be know. Like stealth technology was developed by a Russian scientists, but working for Nasa or somethin.

Necessity is the mother of invention(usually). So if we were to be invaded by 50 foot tall aliens, I dont think that a VF would be out of the realm of possibility. If we can launch stuff out in space and to mars, buliding a transforming aircraft is not so far fetched. But would still be useless against 50 foot aliens, because we would not be doing hand to hand combat with them, we would just shoot them with missles or what ever.