Possibilty of the VF-1

[Boxer]

Alright, given the fact that the VF-1 was modeled on the F-14, do you think the VF-1 is still a possible design even after the development of the F-22?

The VF-1 was based on in shape on the F-14 of the 70s-80s when the F-14 was in it's prime. Around twenty years later the F-14 is being phased out by the F/A-18 Hornet and eventually, the F-22.

Should the nations of the world somehow acquire the capability for a variable aircraft capable of transforming into a humanoid walker, do you think the VF-1 (or something like it) Is still possible given passive stealth construction?

I ask this because I was always wondering if Macross was still possible if, say, the SDF-1 landed in 2010 instead of 1999. If we had overtechnology today would we develop a transfomable non-stealth combat unit or do you think nations would shell out the extra money to make any variable craft full stealth?

I also asked because I wonder if a VF-1 re-design to make it look more 'stealthy' would be a more forseeable machine for the future.

[eugimon]

meh.

the original VF-1 was designed in the seventies, based on what was then a bleeding edge fighter.

if you were wondering what a modern variable fighter would look like based on today's bleeding edge tech, I'd say look at the vf 17, 19 and 22. all three are based on modern day fighters.

as for a more stealthy VF-1, I'd say that is pretty much the VF-0.

[K1_saotome]

have either of you considered that the VF-1 has no rear wings. the one thing that is common in all jets planes etc. are that they all have two sets of wings. and a stablizer fin. but with the advances of Robotech. who knows or some other alien tech.

[Wabbit]

But above of that, if there are no alien ships with technological goodies to boost ours decades ahead, I'm affraid transforming jet fighters are not (yet) a possibility. Metals aren't just strong and light enough to build something that almost defies gravity without getting stressed on the joints and other parts of a battroid.

And if it is possible, it won't be designed as an outdated model of the 70's/80's. The millitary also have their tastes and torped the last two stealth fighters that looked too unconventional.

[Duke Togo]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

[Wabbit]

have either of you considered that the VF-1 has no rear wings. the one thing that is common in all jets planes etc. are that they all have two sets of wings. and a stablizer fin. but with the advances of Robotech. who knows or some other alien tech.

Yeah, the Robotech Masters are dope.

The Valkyrie does have some stabilizer fins, maybe the rear wings are replaced by those feet.

[Macross_Fanboy]

have either of you considered that the VF-1 has no rear wings. the one thing that is common in all jets planes etc. are that they all have two sets of wings. and a stablizer fin. but with the advances of Robotech. who knows or some other alien tech.

[azrael]

Oh God, not one of these discussions. I always thought we Macross fans left silly poo like this to the techies.

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

[K1_saotome]

that's a very good point but i think that everyone that watched macross has in some point of time thought of the idea of the transformable jet becoming a reality. but yes i agree that it would be impossible. but the SDF-1 was using a super alloy according to the American version of it anyway.

[Macross_Fanboy]

that's a very good point but i think that everyone that watched macross has in some point of time thought of the idea of the transformable jet becoming a reality. but yes i agree that it would be impossible. but the SDF-1 was using a super alloy according to the American version of it anyway.

Yes, I have thought about a transforming jet before. But there is no way it is possible until we can develop the neccessary materials and fuel supply for those would-be fighters.

[Greyryder]

have either of you considered that the VF-1 has no rear wings. the one thing that is common in all jets planes etc. are that they all have two sets of wings. and a stablizer fin. but with the advances of Robotech. who knows or some other alien tech.

That's why the vertical stabilizers are angled outward. They function as both vertical and horizontal stabilizers, assisted by the angled fins on the undersides of the engine nacelles. The tail control surfaces on the VF-1 would ruddervators, serving the functions of both rudders, and elevators.

The real life F-117 has a similar set up.

[connor99]

Macross_Fanboy Posted on Sep 7 2004, 10:00 PM

Yes, I have thought about a transforming jet before. But there is no way it is possible until we can develop the neccessary materials and fuel supply for those would-be fighters.

I agree completely! There's just way too many factors that go into the creation of the VF-1 and with the current technology available right now it is just not possible to build one.

[David Hingtgen]

VF-1's v.stabs aren't canted enough to act as h.stabs. They're rudders only. Ventral fins only affect yaw. VF-1 derives 100% of its pitch control and stability from thrust vectoring.

Also, the F-117 has elevons for pitch control. While its rudders are arranged in a V, they are not ruddervators and do not control pitch. (according to some---I think a lot of places just ASSUME they're ruddervators because they're in a V, but WAPJ says they are ruddervators--WAPJ is good, but not perfect) Even if the VF-1's stabs were canted outwards enough, the rudders are far too small to act as elevators for a fighter, which leads into my next point.

Every conventional fighter for decades and decades has had slab/all-moving stabilators, I doubt the VF-1 would go back to WWII-style tail surfaces.

Edited September 8, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[eugimon]

But above of that, if there are no alien ships with technological goodies to boost ours decades ahead, I'm affraid transforming jet fighters are not (yet) a possibility. Metals aren't just strong and light enough to build something that almost defies gravity without getting stressed on the joints and other parts of a battroid.

And if it is possible, it won't be designed as an outdated model of the 70's/80's. The millitary also have their tastes and torped the last two stealth fighters that looked too unconventional.

huh, I didn't take his question as if a transforming mecha were possible (I would say yes, but dear lord why??) but what would macross look like today given today's tech/design.

he does mention quite clearly in his post the whole spaceship, overtech thing.

[Boxer]

My whole question was weather or not the VF-1 would look sort of 'as is shown' in Macross or weather it would have stealth capabilities (If, somehow we got transformation technology.)

...

Edited September 8, 2004 by Boxer

[connor99]

Boxer Posted on Sep 7 2004, 11:45 PM

My whole question was weather or not the VF-1 would look sort of 'as is shown' in Macross or weather it would have stealth capabilities (If, somehow we got transformation technology.)

QUOTE

Let the kids have their fun. Most of us old-timers will just sit back and let the kids make fools of themselves.

Well excuse me for asking anything.

I suggest being more specific the next time you pose a question, that helps out a lot !

[ewilen]

Around twenty years later the F-14 is being phased out by the F/A-18 Hornet and eventually, the F-22.

Actually, the F-14 is being phased out in favor of the Super Hornet, period. The F-22 is a US Air Force plane and there's no plan whatsoever to make a naval version of it. You'll find some people talking about making a naval version of the YF-23, but that's just as farfetched. The Navy will eventually adopt the F-35C to supplement the Super Hornet, primarily in a strike role.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I would think that regardless of technology level, a transforming fighting vehicle is not really viable.

In space especially, the damn shape doesnt matter. Battroid mode should give you the same speed and agility as fighter mode.

In atmosphere, well, if you can make a pure battroid or a pure fighter, the parts and weight savings would give you combat advantages over the variable vehicle.

Regardless of tech level, you cant have 'something for nothing'.

[ewilen]

Yes, it's been argued that the VF-1 should be less capable than a destroid in ground combat, because it's not specialized. But against that is the fact that the VF-1 has stronger engines, which gives it more agility, and SWAG armor, which lets it convert its excess power into tougness.

Beyond that, tactical/operational mobility counts for a lot--battles often go to whoever gets there fastest with the mostest. So even if destroids were stronger than valks, they wouldn't be as useful in a fluid combat situation. E.g., if two groups of Regults are attacking from different directions, you'd have to split your destroids to hold them off. With Valks, you could fly your entire force over to interdict one group, then turn around and fight the second group.

Anyway, of course it's impossible to make a transforming jet fighter with real-world technology. Even a giant bipedal robot (destroid or Armored Core) would probably be heavy, slow, and underprotected. Which is why we build tanks and attack helicopters, not destroids.

[Keith]

The VF-1 is better than practical, it's awesome! "nuff said.

[ewilen]

Boxer Posted on Sep 7 2004, 11:45 PM

My whole question was weather or not the VF-1 would look sort of 'as is shown' in Macross or weather it would have stealth capabilities (If, somehow we got transformation technology.)

I think you kind of have your answer. Another way of posing the question would be, if Kawamori had created Macross in 2004 instead of 1982, what would Valks look like? Answer: something like the VF-17, VF-19, or VF-22. Or maybe the SV-51. Swing wings are passé.

And would it incorporate stealth? Of course, at least in fighter mode.

Not sure how stealthy you could make a gerwalk or battroid. I'll bet that Kawamori would have incorporated active stealth from the getgo. For one thing, it makes hand-hand combat easier to believe.

The idea of the Valk was to take a cutting edge jet at the time and merge it with a transforming robot concept, yielding something that made the sci-fi feel "real". The F-22 or maybe YF-23 would be the likeliest candidate, followed by various other hot jets like the EF-2000, Su-37, and Su-47.

[Skull Leader]

This topic has been discussed in depth previously... once again, we have a failure to realize that the "search" function is all powerful and should be used any time someone wants to bring up a discussion.

Thank you and have a nice day.

[Zentrandude]

if magicly we could build a transforming fightercraft for real i see bunch of guys using laws or an anti-tank rifle to take out the pilot in battroid.

[KingNor]

macross = giant robots to fight giant aliens

there are a bjillion reasons why a real military simply woudln't need a human shaped mecha.

like in gundam, if the gun the gundam holds can destroy another gundam, then why have the gundam at all? why not just slap some treads on the gun, ad a drivers seat. and BAM you got a itty bitty gundam killing tank that costs 1 zillion times less to make.

as for valks, the valkyries are SPECIFICLY designed to fight gigantic alien monsters. they arn't intended for fighting other giant robots (insert why i hate macross zero here) so asking if it's possible is really kinda asking "is it still possible that we could be invaded by gigantic aliens?"

ya, well i guess anything is possible.

[Graham]

My whole question was weather or not the VF-1 would look sort of 'as is shown' in Macross or weather it would have stealth capabilities (If, somehow we got transformation technology.)

...

Both the VF-0 and SV-51 have active (not passive) stealth capabilities.

Graham

[The_Major]

the VF-1 does have some practicalities, especialy when it comes to gerwalk mode, the thing basicly becomes a gunship with the weapons capeablities and speed of an attack aircraft, granted there is no plausable use for a batroid now but if "Mech" R&D continues as i forsee it will, i see the induction of most definatly Combat robots (Destroids) and of cource the possibilty of a Patlabor type force (Heh heh SWAT valks) and in my field (Aerospace engineering) i have come to the conclusion that if metalergical work continues at the speeds its at now i say we'll have the possibility of an operational valk in maybe 5 years if they let me build it

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Actually, if transforming is really necessary for tactical flexibility, the variable war machine should stop at fighter and gerwalk mode. The advantage of Battroid over Gerwalk is better hand-to-hand combat (ok and taller so can see over a damn wall, but the Gerwalk can just hover if it needs height anyway).

Better hand-to-hand doesnt seem a good trade off for the extra mechanics needed for another radically different mode. That weight/space/cost is better spent on more ammo or weapons.

I mean, they don't waste the effort of putting a battering ram on the Abrams even though it _might_ come in handy if ammo runs out and a T-72 trys to ram it.....

[hellohikaru]

Hey the VF-17 has swing wings too...at least that's what i notice while playing VFX-2.

[kanedaestes]

you know this is pointless, yes it is a dream of everyone's but the mechanics of it all are just to much, and are an impossiblity. i used to say that i would only join the military if a space craft from another world crash landed and offered us the technology to do such things, well now i am in the air force, and have come to my senses, besides, unless we are fighting giant aliens, battroid mode is useless.

[KingNor]

you know this is pointless, yes it is a dream of everyone's but the mechanics of it all are just to much, and are an impossiblity. i used to say that i would only join the military if a space craft from another world crash landed and offered us the technology to do such things, well now i am in the air force, and have come to my senses, besides, unless we are fighting giant aliens, battroid mode is useless.

thank god i'm not the onlly one on macrossworld whos not INSANE

an operational valkyrie in 5 years... comeon people...

[kanedaestes]

and has anyone ever actually thought about it? i mean really, have you ever just thought about the mechanics involved in a moving robot? especially one that moves like a valk, or even a gundam for that matter, and now think about making that robot transform into a plane with all the areodynamics involved to make the plane fly? yeah it seems nice, but hell even with alien technology that is a tall order. especially when you think about it, the aliens didn't have transforming mechs, that was something we developed. the sdf-1 never was intended to transform, that was a biproduct of a missing fold generator.

[Chronocidal]

Heheh.. well, all dreams of a battroid mode aside, there really is no reason for one today. But gerwalk mode.. well, we're closer to that than some people may think, and frankly, gerwalk seems to me like a heck of a lot better solution to VTOL than what we've come up with so far. With two engines to control stability, it would probably be a lot more stable in hover than current planes. But things are advancing at a rapid pace, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a gerwalk type transformation in the coming years. If anyone's seen how the new F-35 JSF does a vertical takeoff, then you probably know what I mean. The first thing I thought of when I saw that engine bend 90 degrees downward was "GERWALK! GERWALK!!!" Granted, they're only bending the afterburner can down, not bending the engine in the middle like Valks do. But it's a start, and if they have the technology to bend the engine down like that, and swivel it all around electronically to stabilize the hover like I saw (think foot/ankle joint), gerwalk can't be that far away.

[KingNor]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a gerwalk type transformation in the coming years.

i would be VERY supprised

you've got no idea how unstable something like a gerwalk mode would be.

not only would you have two independand sources of thrust moving around in independant directions, you'd have the mass of the legs (with big engines int them) swinging around causing weight distribution to shift and such

factor in minor performance variations in each engine (one running rich one running lean) and you've got one hell of a machine to wrangle.. and for what purpose would this ungainly vehicle be used?

[Zentrandude]

also gerwalk mode looks like the engines would take in alot of hot gas with the feet just below the intakes.

[Boxer]

This topic has been discussed in depth previously... once again, we have a failure to realize that the "search" function is all powerful and should be used any time someone wants to bring up a discussion.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Yeah, right, and if we want to comment in these threads we'd get flamed for necromancy!

Anyways, the possibilty of a gerwalk transformation is like saying your jet can become a helicopter. And if it has arms, it now has the utility of a lifting helicopter. Wouldn't that be so much more advantageous than shelling out the cash for a full-stealth fighter?

I think you kind of have your answer. Another way of posing the question would be, if Kawamori had created Macross in 2004 instead of 1982, what would Valks look like? Answer: something like the VF-17, VF-19, or VF-22. Or maybe the SV-51. Swing wings are passé.

That's what I thought. But I assumed it would be cost-effective to have either a transformational vehicle or a stealth one. It would cost twice as much if one fighter were to incorporate both. I was wondering what everyone else thought.

Edited September 8, 2004 by Boxer