Need help settling an internal debate

[Knight26]

Ok this one is a hard one for me to decide since well, this is the first ship I ever really designed, starting out with four sheets of 8.5x11 graph paper taped to gether to make it. Several offshoot designs have since evolved from it and after uncounted redesigns I am considering a complete tear down and rebuild of the Wolfsbane, probably the single most important ship in my books. The original design is this:

Very angular, very block, and this is after years of work on the same basic frame, adding details, replacing parts, retexturing, etc... I originally started out thinking I would just go in, add a bunch of details, rebuild parts of the hull, give more detail to the whole design and then reskin it. But now I have a little nagging voice that keeps telling me to rebuild the whole thing, since all the other redesigns have come out so well. (check older threads of mine to see what I mean) This is really the only design of mine, except for a small handful, that has not seen a major redesign.

SO what I am asking is, should I go for it, should I do a full tear down and rebuild? Some things to consider, this ship is one of the few confed large carrier designs with pass through decks, other use either launch/recovery bays, or individual fighter docks. The reason that the Tacit class has the fly through bays is that they were a rushed design, hurried through the design process and pressed into service as quickly as possible. As a result each one is quite different and some of them suffer from material deficiencies, they are all made from a very rare metal. I also want to keep the T-shaped configuration with engine nacelles and multiple hanger bays. So what do you all think, should I go for it, and if so do you have any suggestions as to what the redesign should look like? (pictures and sketches will help greatly here.)

One more pic until later, this is all five of the class together, showing the modifications made to the designs as they progressed.

One last thing, the hanger bays in the Wolfsbane-A, constructed 100yr later, will be the better defensible seperate launch/recovery bay type, but will retain the same basic hull with some modification.

[Knight26]

Ok I did a little work on a more detailed version. I still need to add things like airlocks, escape ship hatches, docking points, etc... The question now is, should I proceed further with this model, or go for the full tear down?

[Opus]

I think it needs a superstructure on top. It'll give it a sense of scale and give it a more ship like vibe. Also a superstructure on the bottom would help to confuse the ships orientation and give it a sense of balance.

[Lynx7725]

I dunno. It seems to lack.. something. The vertical seems to be a bit bland.. it's mostly a 2-axis design, seems to be. Opus' suggestion should help, but I think a straight-on/ side-on/ above view would help more.

I think it's functional, but as the centerpiece of your work, it seems to lack a bit of oomph, if you get what I mean.

[Knight26]

Interesting ideas, but an island structure/tower/bridge, not going to happen, maybe some additional hardware up there, but no bridge. The reason being is that Confed ships bury their command facilities deep into the ship to protect them and nto give the enemy an obvious point of attack. I'm going to work on a complete ground up rebuild tomorrow, try out working on a concept at work, see what it looks like, after that I will make the final call as to how to proceed.

[Graham]

Quite like the design as is.

Although, the ships seem to be covered with awfully large rust(?) patches in the first few pics. Seems like the Captain should be ordering a work detail to get out there and repaint the hull

Graham

[Wumzi]

I like it.

But if it were up to me, I'd make it a little bit less symmetric. I think I understand why you made it that way, this being space and all, and there shouldn't be an up or down. But I still think it looks too symmetric.

So, maybe add some antennas on one side of the ship. Instead of an island placed on top of the ship, why not another pass through launch bay? Ditto for the bottom. This way you can expand upon the T design you made. If I interpreted the design correctly, then the engines are the located on the sides and not along the central axis. Instead of the 2 new sections being identical to the original 2, you can make them purely pass through launch bays, no engines (ie, they look different, probably smaller).

[Max Jenius]

OMG ADD SENSOR ARRAYS AND ANTENNAS!!

[Knight26]

Quite like the design as is.

Although, the ships seem to be covered with awfully large rust(?) patches in the first few pics. Seems like the Captain should be ordering a work detail to get out there and repaint the hull

Graham

LOL, I get that one a lot Graham, those are actually supposed to be old hits, those will be redone on the new model once completed.

This is an idea that came to me last night, right now I just have a vague descriptive idea. I'm thinking something Daedeleus looking, in the bows, with a low slung hump below for the dropship hanger bay. The central hull would be widened and flattened overall with a sloping front in the same general shape of the daedaleus. The "wing" hangers on the side would be of a similar shape, but possibly with two hulsl of same basic shape stacked and inverted atop each other. The engine nacelles would then extend out from there. If I have time today at work I will slam something out really quick and post an image. Sorry for hte vague description but it did come to me in a dream.

[Knight26]

Ok, decision time. I cranked this out real quick this morning at work, it still needs a lot of work, details added, weapons, new engines, etc... but is along the lines of what I am currently thinking. Those holes on the underside are the launch tubes for the dropship hanger, and on later ship models a large cannon will be slung under the forward hull in front of that hanger. I have the old engines on it for now and they will be replaced if this goes further. The mass has increased about 10% so far and I anticipate it going up more if I go along with this redesign. Now the question is, should I? And if I do what suggestions do you have? Let me know what you think, appreciate any and all comments.

[David Hingtgen]

I do like the new shape, but it reminds me of a smaller ship. "Small sleek fighter" vs "big blocky command carrier". Though, that's more like a "big sleek heavy fighter-bomber" IMHO.

Could of course just be the lack of hull details in the "rough sketch". Details make things seem bigger!

[Opus]

The original design looked better. It definately needs some antennae and junk though. Take a look at an aircraft carrier, there are various antennae all down the sides. The most sucessful sci-fi designs use real world elements in thier design. Star Wars is the best example, most of the ships were kibbled together from pre-existing model kits and the weapons were real guns with a bit of fantasy foo foo added.

[Agent ONE]

My briliance knows no limits.

[Wabbit]

I do like the new shape, but it reminds me of a smaller ship.   "Small sleek fighter" vs "big blocky command carrier".   Though, that's more like a "big sleek heavy fighter-bomber" IMHO. 

Could of course just be the lack of hull details in the "rough sketch".  Details make things seem bigger!

Well, then add a 'bridge' at the top of the stern, some extra modules on the ship, even smaller modules on the bigger middle ones on the 'wings'. They may be extra armor to protect some vital areas, equipment for stellar cartography and scanning, missile-launchers or gun turrets.

I like the new design, you may add some of these suggestions to make the ship 'bigger',more rugged, and fatter, Knight26.

Or perhaps use the bow of the first design.

Edited August 31, 2004 by Wabbit

[Knight26]

I made some changes to the new version. I think it turned from bulky, super battle carrier into the sleak thing you saw because its original inspiration started to harken back. A special surprise to whomever can first guess what the original layout was inspired by. ANyhow, I went back and made some mods, making it more blocky, I added the mandibles for some strange reason, they may or may not stay but I think I may proceed with the design and turn the old Tacit's into something else, spent too much time on them simply to throw them out. ANyway I think the changes I made make it look much larger. Also to give a sense of scale and because DH made reference to a high speed bomber I stuck the recently redone Feral-F bomber in the launch tube to give a sense of scale. The bomber is a little over 100' long so you can see the ship is right about 3400' long. COmments are appreciated and will be taken into consideration. I have some ideas of what to add to the hull including something like the "handle" from the back end of the Daedeleus, it came to me in a dream, what can I say.

[Knight26]

My briliance knows no limits.

I don't mind constructice criticism, or even something that is actually funny, but that is none of the above.

[Agent ONE]

My briliance knows no limits.

I don't mind constructice criticism, or even something that is actually funny, but that is none of the above.

anytime.

[Knight26]

My briliance knows no limits.

I don't mind constructice criticism, or even something that is actually funny, but that is none of the above.

anytime.

If you don't have some constructive to add then bug off Agent One. Whether I agree with them or not everyone else who has posted here has at least given some constructive criticsm, not dropped to the level of 12 yr old just to increase their post count and make themselves seem like a big man.

[Agent ONE]

My briliance knows no limits.

I don't mind constructice criticism, or even something that is actually funny, but that is none of the above.

anytime.

If you don't have some constructive to add then bug off Agent One. Whether I agree with them or not everyone else who has posted here has at least given some constructive criticsm, not dropped to the level of 12 yr old just to increase their post count and make themselves seem like a big man.

I don't know why you are bend out of shape. The comments I make on this board I make for my own entertainment exclusively, and I must say, I rule. If you don't like em... well I won't lose any sleep over it.

Tell you what if you would feel better I'll email you some pictures of my biceps.

[Knight26]

My briliance knows no limits.

I don't mind constructice criticism, or even something that is actually funny, but that is none of the above.

anytime.

If you don't have some constructive to add then bug off Agent One. Whether I agree with them or not everyone else who has posted here has at least given some constructive criticsm, not dropped to the level of 12 yr old just to increase their post count and make themselves seem like a big man.

I don't know why you are bend out of shape. The comments I make on this board I make for my own entertainment exclusively, and I must say, I rule. If you don't like em... well I won't lose any sleep over it.

Tell you what if you would feel better I'll email you some pictures of my biceps.

I don't know what your issue is man, but I am not going to even respond to your childish comments anymore, good luck growing up. If anyone has any constructive comments regarding the design I look forward to hearing them.

[do not disturb]

i especially like the one with testicles added onto it.

sorry just trying to lighten the mood.

the ship looks great but as most suggested, you need some grebblies like vents, exhaust ports, antennas, a radar dish and maybe a small control tower. i assuming this is a capital ship. if its a fighter, then it just needs more guns.

[Knight26]

Yeah she is a capital ship, right now I am still getting down the general shape, once that is done, I will start adding sensors, added armor, weapons, hanger details, etc... I'm just surprised that no one has tried to guess what the original layout was inspired by, I could post a top view but that would be way too obvious.

ANd Haterist, thanks for lifting the mood.

[do not disturb]

SR-71 blackbird in combination with firefox, thats what i see.

actually i'm not really a fan of symeterical captial ships but thats just me. i like it when the ships looks beat up and heaped together but thats just my personal taste. its only in the beginning stages so its hard for me to say. the finished product might loook totally badarse once all the details are added. we'll have to wait and see what you come up with.

Edited September 1, 2004 by haterist

[Agent ONE]

...

I don't know what your issue is man...

Its not really MY issue, its THE issue... And THE issue is, I am so sexy it's unbearable.

also; your spaceship looks like my donger.

Suggestion, do something else do the front, like widen it at the bow.

[Opus]

also; your spaceship looks like my donger.

Dood, you should see a doctor that ain't right. Oh , and stop being a spaceship.

[Agent ONE]

also; your spaceship looks like my donger.

Dood, you should see a doctor that ain't right. Oh , and stop being a spaceship.

HAHA.

The biatches don't seem to mind.

I'll stop being a spaceship now.

[David Hingtgen]

From the first "cranked out this morning" version, I definitely got a ST shuttlecraft vibe from it. Or maybe more specifically, a Runabout.

[ladyraven]

I personally liked the original but the model is coming along. Definately reminded me of a few planes in our arsenal. Istead of the nose coming to a blunt point, try rounding it out more so you get like a C shape if you look at it from the top. Also the "wings" need some work. I think that is what is throwing off the look. Symetrical is good cause it causes the eye to look over the ship and not get hung up on one detail. Instead you take in the whole picture not just a single part like a jutting antenna array. Also the wings look stumpy compared to the rest of the hull. Try making the "wingspan" longer and that should help. Otherwise....the project is coming along and is quite impressive. Keep up the good work!

[Max Jenius]

Ummmmm.... yeah... like I said... needs more antennas!

I like the general design... both the blocky and the sleek

Maybe have them as different variants of a same class? Like the second one looks like a stealth frigate or something and the other one looks like it would be a little bigger and more armoured... I dunno. Your call.

[Wes]

I've been watching your designs for some time, and I must admit, they don't visually appeal to me. I appreciate how you have more of a real-world sense of craft building instead of some far-off fancy futuristic thing. I'd be interested if you did cross-sections of your ships. But they don't necessarily have to practically be sleek - you don't have to worry about aerodynamic affects in space after all.

By that same measure, if your craft are not restricted by all those nasty effects, you should feel free to experiment with whatever designs features apeal to you - the sky is literally not the limit.

Then again, you probably want something more specific to the craft at hand; I really like the level of detail you show on the craft, but I'm not crazy about either outer-shell design as is.

[Lynx7725]

I dunno. Still a bit off. It's perfectly servicable as a capital ship, but still doesn't quite grab me.

Is it an intentional design decision to have the rear end all on the same plane? I can understand this if the ship is designed to be ground-to-orbit capable (ala shuttle launches) but if the ship is supposed to be space-only I think we can afford to have a long(er) tail to break up the outline, aesthetically speaking of course.

I can understand the prime design decision to have fly-through decks will affect engine placement, but I can't quite shake the unease about the moment generated about the vertical from an inevitable loss of power from one engine. Me, I'm happier with a midline engine, but it's easy for a pilot to fly into an exhaust that way.

Overall the design speaks to me more of an assault ship rather than a carrier.

Agent ONE: Your ego is getting into the way of good sense. You might want to work on that a bit.

[Knight26]

Thanks for the comments guys. Like I said earlier the design was rushed that is why it has the fly through hanger bays. As for engine nacelles, I prefer them to centerline engine, easier to arrange exhausts and such as well. Yes, if you lost an engine you would have severe controlability issues, but then the navigation thrusters, to be added, could be used in emergencies. Anyway I've done some work tonight, still have more to go, but I figured I would post the progress thus far. As for ending the hulls all along the same plain, hmm, let me see what I can do about that. I also redid the engines, those spiky things in front are a type of energy generation system and the bridge dealies over the hangers are the flight control bays. There are still a lot of details to be added though. As for aerodynamics, I know that isn't required in space, I'm an aerospace engineer afterall. If you look you can tell that the strictly exo-atmospheric craft really are not aerodynamic, but even in a race that has been in space for a long time, some old habits die hard. Let me know what you think so far. OH yeah, and Haterist you were right, SR-71, was watching a movie with the Blackbird when I first drew it.

Edited September 1, 2004 by Knight26

[David Hingtgen]

I like it better now. Like the "pincers" on the wings, but not the nose. IMHO, needs a new "nosecone". And I get a "big observation window" vibe from the front end too. Goes along with the nose. Just MHO. Like the new design a lot at the moment.

I would bulk up the center-rear area though, vertically. Either overall, or just add some "pods" top and bottom. More volume.

Edited September 1, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Lynx7725]

Same here. I think the rear center portion can do with a bit of bulking out, just to raise the vertical cross section there a wee bit. I think the rear end is fine, it's just the front end, well, sticks out.

Don't quite like the spiky bits in from of the ram prow (Daedaleus, definitely), but I can live with it I guess.. I'm not sure of the scale of things, but the fly-through port on the center front looks a bit small to me, and the square shape of the prow looks odd to me too.

But to be honest it's not my design, and it should not be.. I think overall it's more exotic-looking than the plain jane version earlier. You might want to keep the original, but reclass it as something else, like an assault ship or strike craft.

[Knight26]

Made a little progress last night, plan to do more this afternoon and evening. I am considering maybe chopping out the foward most portion of the launch deck to give it a more open look. Once I get the major surface islands down I will start on the turrtes, sensors, observation domes, etc... Also to add a sense of scale I threw in an old Saratoga model I pulled off the net some time ago. I'm thinking of adding a corvette docking pad somewhere, just need to find an area large enough. As for bulking up the central rear vertically I am a little reluctant to do that at this time, but we will see what happens.

Edited September 1, 2004 by Knight26