What we know about the Supervision Army

[ewilen]

Let's get this out of the Newbie topic.

It may be interesting to speculate on what kind of attitude the Supervision Army would have taken toward humans, had they contacted Earth at some point before or during Space War One. Consider:

1) Space War One (as I understand it) was initially a big misunderstanding--the Zentradi just wanted the Macross, but the humans thought they wanted to conquer the Solar System.

2) Later, Bodolza briefly wanted to study the humans for their technological prowess. (This from the Compendium. See the sixth and seventh paragraphs of section 5.2.2 here.) Not clear how this affected the overall Zentradi attitude to humanity. (Did they just want a few specimens? An alliance? Did they want to enslave all the humans?)

3) Finally, Bodolza realized the humans were a threat to the Zentradi Way of Life, and became implacably and unambiguously hostile.

Now, depending on how smart the Supervision Army was (mindless zombies of destruction? intelligent ex-Protodeviln slaves fighting for their survival?), if they'd come into contact with the humans at some point before or during this sequence, perhaps Earth would have seen them as good guys or allies. But after the defeat of Bodolza, with some surviving Zentradi and humans having formed an alliance, they would probably be seen as bad guys. Or would they?

I think it would be an interesting line to pursue if there's a future series.

[Tekkaman Blade]

I still think they were stuck on some attack orders or prime directives. This would lead to their destruction by the Zentraedii because of failure to create new ships or anything, as the Supervision Army was probably comprised of Protoculture and Zentraedii ships and mobile armor. They would be incomplete compared to Badolza because he would command the Zentraedii and cunduct research to heighten their technology and war machine's power.

Also, the Zentraedii could make new machines with the Factory Satellite. It is possible that the Supervision Army could have stolen a number of them and transported them elsewhere, but as there is a lack of SA ships seen in the Macross TV series, it leads me to believe they didn't and by the end of the Steller Republic they were probably as weak as the Protoculture in defending themselves against the now rampant Zentraedii.

Also, as the Protodevilin needed Spiritia, it may have been that after the Protodevilin were gone, the SA were still trying to capture living beings for spiritia absorption, greatly reducing their combat ability when trying not to kill the enemy.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I always thought the Supervision Army and Vartu were the same.

[ewilen]

Nope, this was just covered in the pinned Newbie section. Or are you kidding?

Here's a link: start of Supervision Army/Varauta discussion for Newbies.

Edit: it's about 2/3 of the way down the page.

Edited September 12, 2003 by ewilen

[Gubaba]

I always thought the Supervision Army and Vartu were the same.

Well...yes and no. As far as I can tell, the Supervision Army were Protoculture and Zentradi under the Protodevilns' control that were created thousands of years ago. How exactly they recruited new members or who they took orders from after the Protodeviln were sealed up is kind of unclear to me.

The Varauta Army are those unfortunates from the Megaroad 13 who unwittingly released the Protodeviln, as well as the poor Zentradi schmucks with the Macross 5 fleet.

So they're the same KIND of thing, but not really the same.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Nope, this was just covered in the pinned Newbie section. Or are you kidding?

Here's a link: start of Supervision Army/Varauta discussion for Newbies.

Edit: it's about 2/3 of the way down the page.

I see now. My bad. I'm sorry.

Thank you ewilen and Gubaba.

Edited September 12, 2003 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[Tekkaman Blade]

The only reason you can't say that the new Varauta Army is an extension of the original Supervision Army is because the Supervision Army was never brought back under Protodevilin control, so it was a totally new military created to serve their purpose once more.

[Druna Skass]

Since the Supervision Army was also composed of Protocultures I was always under the influence the the SA had the better tech, while the Zentraedi had the numbers. And how were the Stellar Republic troops brainwashed, totaly mind controled, fooled into siding agaist the Republic?

[Tekkaman Blade]

Did you even watch Macross 7?

Protodevilin, I think only Geperunichi can do this, are able to mind control their "subjects" and make them their drones and servants.

[JB0]

2) Later, Bodolza briefly wanted to study the humans for their technological prowess. (This from the Compendium. See the sixth and seventh paragraphs of section 5.2.2 here.) Not clear how this affected the overall Zentradi attitude to humanity. (Did they just want a few specimens? An alliance? Did they want to enslave all the humans?)

Tech support.

We can repair vehicles. Indeed, we can actually design new vehicles.

And we have the legendary thermonuclear reaction weaponry. We can fusion bomb the mother-sniffers. They want this capability SO BAD.

They just didn't understand the concept of entering into an alliance with.

[ewilen]

Well, yes. But if Bodolza didn't want to enter an alliance, did he expect the humans to just take orders, or did he hope to just learn whatever he needed--and then did he plan on disposing of humanity, or would he have just let us be?

(Note: I'm talking about SDF Macross, not DYRL.)

Anyway, the more interesting question in this topic is what the Supervision Army was fighting for at the time of SW1. My impression is that the Zentradi themselves may have partially forgotten how the SA came about and why they are fighting. Probably the most we see of this is what is revealed in episode 31 "Satan's Dolls", but I haven't yet viewed the original version and I can't trust the Robotech version. A summary of the Macross version is here.

On the Macross, Hikaru gives his report on Trad City to Global and the senior staff. Exedol also explains his findings on his research of the origin of Zentradi. He says that they were created for fighting by the Protoculture, and Global takes over. He says that over 500,000 years ago a great civilization called the Protoculture existed and founded the Stellar Republic. Over time, the Protoculture split into two warring factions and used genetic engineering to create the giants that eventually became the Zentradi and Supervision Army. After a long war, the Protoculture was destroyed by their own creation, and the Zentradi have been fighting ever since then. Global and Exedol thinks that the Protoculture had some effect on Earth's evolution, but they're not sure.

Note that at the time of this episode, the information is recently discovered from Exedol's perspective. (But Global seems to know a lot of it already. Has he had access to the top-secret discoveries from the AFOS in Macross Zero?) Also note that this summary implies an origin for the Supervision Army which is slightly different from the (presumably Macross 7 derived) information in the Compendium. That is, it suggests the Zentradi and the Supervision Army were produced by opposite sides in the PC's civil war and have essentially continued that war. But the summary can also be construed as meaning that Zentradi-type giants were created in the civil war and that (consistent with the Compendium) some of the giants were incorporated in the Supervision Army when the Protodevlin appeared. I don't know if these giants were from one side or both. It may even be possible to further reconcile the accounts by positing that the Supervison Army was originally the army of one side in the PC civil war--the side that developed the Evil series of giant humanoids. When the majority of that side was possessed by the Protodeviln, "Supervision Army" became synonomous with the forces controlled by the Protodeviln.

In any case, at the time of SW1, Bodolza seems to know more about the Protoculture than anyone else, yet he is still quite ignorant. He certainly isn't loyal to the Protoculture at all.

The Chronology has this:

PC 2872

    Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.

    Approximately one year after the emergence of Protodeviln, their power begins to rapidly decline.

"Protodeviln sealing operation." People (known as Anima Spiritia) who are significant in the war against the Protodeviln are determined to have influential powers over the Protodeviln. Protodeviln faction are completely sealed in special chambers through the efforts of Anima Spiritia.

PC 2875

    The network among each colonized planet disintegrates. Control of the Zentradi faction is lost and the reissuing of the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture" becomes ineffective.

PC 3000

    Dissolution of Stellar Republic.

Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins.

PC 5000

In what still remains of the Stellar Republic, only a small number of separated colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and other populations at the edge of the galaxy are left.

PC 25000

Near annihilation of Protoculture.

BC 380,000

Annihilation of automated reaction weaponry production plants.

[280,000 cycles before the present]

Destruction of Glaug automated production system by all-front Supervision Army attack on Roiquonmi weaponry plant.

From all this, it seems that

a.) The SA included miclones, at least at one time. (Or the Zentradi would never have had trouble with the prime directive.)

b.) The SA must be as clueless about culture as the Zentradi.

c.) The SA may be mindless zombies set on "attack", but they could also be more like the Zentradi--a fighting force, which though freed of its former masters, retains the general goal of conquering known space and specifically of defeating the Zentradi.

[azrael]

*snip*

It may even be possible to further reconcile the accounts by positing that the Supervison Army was originally the army of one side in the PC civil war--the side that developed the Evil series of giant humanoids. When the majority of that side was possessed by the Protodeviln, "Supervision Army" became synonomous with the forces controlled by the Protodeviln.

*snip*

That would be a good assumption. Because if you look farther back at the timeline ( http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronol...0000/index.html ), there were problems at the formation of the Stellar Republic. And there was, what looks like, an organized force opposed to the Stellar Republic.

[JB0]

Well, yes. But if Bodolza didn't want to enter an alliance, did he expect the humans to just take orders, or did he hope to just learn whatever he needed--and then did he plan on disposing of humanity, or would he have just let us be?

(Note: I'm talking about SDF Macross, not DYRL.)

I think it was study and learn, then dispose of.

That particular story detail was never very clear.

And I've never actually seen DYRL.

*runs and hides*

Anyway, the more interesting question in this topic is what the Supervision Army was fighting for at the time of SW1. My impression is that the Zentradi themselves may have partially forgotten how the SA came about and why they are fighting. Probably the most we see of this is what is revealed in episode 31 "Satan's Dolls", but I haven't yet viewed the original version and I can't trust the Robotech version. A summary of the Macross version is here.

On the Macross, Hikaru gives his report on Trad City to Global and the senior staff. Exedol also explains his findings on his research of the origin of Zentradi. He says that they were created for fighting by the Protoculture, and Global takes over. He says that over 500,000 years ago a great civilization called the Protoculture existed and founded the Stellar Republic. Over time, the Protoculture split into two warring factions and used genetic engineering to create the giants that eventually became the Zentradi and Supervision Army. After a long war, the Protoculture was destroyed by their own creation, and the Zentradi have been fighting ever since then. Global and Exedol thinks that the Protoculture had some effect on Earth's evolution, but they're not sure.

Note that at the time of this episode, the information is recently discovered from Exedol's perspective. (But Global seems to know a lot of it already. Has he had access to the top-secret discoveries from the AFOS in Macross Zero?) Also note that this summary implies an origin for the Supervision Army which is slightly different from the (presumably Macross 7 derived) information in the Compendium. That is, it suggests the Zentradi and the Supervision Army were produced by opposite sides in the PC's civil war and have essentially continued that war. But the summary can also be construed as meaning that Zentradi-type giants were created in the civil war and that (consistent with the Compendium) some of the giants were incorporated in the Supervision Army when the Protodevlin appeared. I don't know if these giants were from one side or both. It may even be possible to further reconcile the accounts by positing that the Supervison Army was originally the army of one side in the PC civil war--the side that developed the Evil series of giant humanoids. When the majority of that side was possessed by the Protodeviln, "Supervision Army" became synonomous with the forces controlled by the Protodeviln.

In any case, at the time of SW1, Bodolza seems to know more about the Protoculture than anyone else, yet he is still quite ignorant. He certainly isn't loyal to the Protoculture at all.

The Chronology has this:

PC 2872

    Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.

    Approximately one year after the emergence of Protodeviln, their power begins to rapidly decline.

"Protodeviln sealing operation." People (known as Anima Spiritia) who are significant in the war against the Protodeviln are determined to have influential powers over the Protodeviln. Protodeviln faction are completely sealed in special chambers through the efforts of Anima Spiritia.

PC 2875

    The network among each colonized planet disintegrates. Control of the Zentradi faction is lost and the reissuing of the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture" becomes ineffective.

PC 3000

    Dissolution of Stellar Republic.

Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins.

PC 5000

In what still remains of the Stellar Republic, only a small number of separated colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and other populations at the edge of the galaxy are left.

PC 25000

Near annihilation of Protoculture.

BC 380,000

Annihilation of automated reaction weaponry production plants.

[280,000 cycles before the present]

Destruction of Glaug automated production system by all-front Supervision Army attack on Roiquonmi weaponry plant.

Without knowing specific ages, I would assume every zentradi now alive was born some time after 380,000 BC.

Exedol(one of the older zentradi if my impressions are correct) speaks of reaction weaponry much the same way we would the Excalibur. It's a legendary weapon from a tale that's more myth than reality.

I got the impression he'd never actually SEEN a reaction warhead before they entered the Sol system, and wasn't even really convinded they had ever existed.

Same for Britai.

They've probably never seen the protoculture, and are reliant upon whatever historical records thy have.

Records that seem to have been lost or signifigantly altered during the ages.

The former prime directive about not interfering with the protoculture is now just remembered as the moral of an old legend stating to "leave the worlds of the miclones alone."

A fable that the zentradi don't really take very seriously, apparently. Exedol mentioned it, but it was never really considered.

Also, if Bodolzaa's behavior is typical among the Zentradi, information about the protoculture isn't shared very widely.

He told Britai and Exedol a very little bit about them, with the understanding that it would go no farther. And he only told them because it was directly relevant to their mission.

Assuming this is standard practice across the zentradi armed forces, one can only guess at how much information has been lost because high-ranking zentradi took it to their graves. Furthermore, all the really good info is likely stopped at ranks that make Bodolzaa look like a common grunt.

Even if it isn't common practice, the zentradi we know don't know jack, because Bodolzaa ran his fleet that way, and his computer's database and his archivist(s) were destroyed when we took his ship out.

The possible exception is troops on the captured factory satellite, but they were a very limited force to begin with. Their mission was simple: protect the factory. It didn't require much data of any sort(IF approaching vessel != zentradi THEN blow the crap out of it), so they likely weren't hauling an archivist around, or a historical database.

As a side note, it's scary how much information seemed to reside solely in the heads of archivists.

Edited September 12, 2003 by JB0

[Tekkaman Blade]

*snip*

It may even be possible to further reconcile the accounts by positing that the Supervison Army was originally the army of one side in the PC civil war--the side that developed the Evil series of giant humanoids. When the majority of that side was possessed by the Protodeviln, "Supervision Army" became synonomous with the forces controlled by the Protodeviln.

*snip*

That would be a good assumption. Because if you look farther back at the timeline ( http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronol...0000/index.html ), there were problems at the formation of the Stellar Republic. And there was, what looks like, an organized force opposed to the Stellar Republic.

Hhhmmm... this could be the case.

[Kasumi_Chan]

IIRC the comment about reaction weaponry had nothing to do with missile/bomb technology, but was made when they realized they were looking at a rebuilt gunship. I would believe the "reaction weaponry" meant the heavy particle beam cannon.

[Duke Togo]

IIRC the comment about reaction weaponry had nothing to do with missile/bomb technology, but was made when they realized they were looking at a rebuilt gunship. I would believe the "reaction weaponry" meant the heavy particle beam cannon.

No no, they were talking about the reaction missiles.

[Kasumi_Chan]

I'll have to rewatch it then... =O

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Now, depending on how smart the Supervision Army was (mindless zombies of destruction? intelligent ex-Protodeviln slaves fighting for their survival?), if they'd come into contact with the humans at some point before or during this sequence, perhaps Earth would have seen them as good guys or allies. But after the defeat of Bodolza, with some surviving Zentradi and humans having formed an alliance, they would probably be seen as bad guys. Or would they?

Nah I see it as they are both evil for fighting such a war and expanding their powers rather than being happy with what they already have. Similar to how sara and her villagers didn't want to be dragged into the war between the anti un and ung over some stupid rights over treasure which isn't even theirs to claim to begin with. So yeah we'd see the SVA as just another bad guy I reckon.

But the power hungry military might see them as an ally if there was some sharing of technology and garauntee or condition we are not attacked. But they would still be ally and not 'good'. Just as the humans on earth in mospeada might think of the inbit as their leaders for not killing them, but still be pissed at having to share earth with them and being powerless to tell them to f*ck off.

I think the majority of humans would be anti-war, but can't help but need to see aliens as potential invaders and thieves who might try to steal something. So there would be all kinds of backup plans and secret weapons being made in case there was ever a breakdown in 'friendship'. In short: a enemy of an enemy is not a friend, but a future opponent competing with you. I think the gundam shows are good at showing this: zeons after losing the war against the feddies may officially be friends and make peace, but would you trust them to do anything if one of their kind went solo and decided to keep fighting? No, you would suspect that they secretly are celebrating the fact that there are still patriots out there wanting to show the might of their people even though officially zeon has got to suck up to the winner of the war or else.. Same thing with humans: we might just suck up to the SVA so long as it benefits us to not anger them. (but this would be out of fear of what might happen if we try to act big more than a genuine need to make friends and hold hands )

You can't expect a superior race with better weapons to respect one that is younger and weaker than it. The military would envy what the other guy has and wish they could have it for themselves. This might be the basis for why you'd need to suck up to them, before eventually 'becoming independant' from needing the friendship and (through devloping better weapons) having the strength to back up the tough attitude which allows you to demand more respect and a better deal from them if there is ever a future disaggrement that leads to some war. The only innocent ones would be the good guys from either race trying to prevent the wars and this is why in gundam you always have little kids whining to their dads for being dicks and taking risks by increasing the hate (whose 'bold' actions eventually lead to some global catastrophe that destroys the environment) which causes everyone to suffer.

The sole reasons why humans, zentradi and pc are so warlike in macross is because they let the 'bad guys' within their own race, have absolute control over everything. The decisions made at the top, might have irreversible effects that may lead to extinction. (ie no easy solution - just tolerate differences) Not even the PC are perfect so that's why they had to flee to earth. If there is a war in heaven and more advanced races can't solve thing: what makes us think we can escape it coming down to earth?

There is an interesting science fiction movie called "equilibrium" and in it they try to stop humans having wars by forcing people to take a prozac-like drug called prozium which calms people down by taking away their "emotion" which is thought to be the cause of all wars in history. This is very similar to the theme in Appleseed where the androids think that humans wouldn't destroy stuff if we just throw away what makes us human. But humans are not willing to do that so we live on and tolerate the wars and fights rather than try to solve it. The answer (to end war once and for all) is: "there is no answer". Stop thinking you can climb to heaven where things are perfect and having your head up your utopian ass. Not all the problems can be solved since people were designed to disagree and our differences are what define us as an individual with unique thoughts and ideas of our own. If you can't give that up, then you have to expect fighting because that's what all things in nature do for survival.

What would happen is humans would become the next Super Vision Army, or the next Zentradi, or the next PC, and we'd eventually run into the same problem. (having powers at the top disagree with those on the bottom, getting into a fight with an external threat, leading to weapons getting more powerful and out of control due to the need to be more powerful than the competition to get a better deal, ...leading to catastrophe on both sides)

Edited February 8, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[dakedo]

I have two thoeries regarding the Supervision Army, kind of agree with what people have said before in this thread:

Theory Number 1

Maybe someone has pointed this out before, but according to Macross 7, the Protoculture was split in two. One side created the Zentradis. The other side created 7 Demons who where later possesed by the Protodevlin. Lets not forget that before the protodevlins came into scene, there was already a war: ProtocultureSide1+Zentradis vs ProtocultureSide2

I remember Max Jenius making a comment about how stupid the Protoculture was, having a war among theirselves.

ANyway, I guess the Supervision Army is composed mostly of people who were originally fighting the Zentradis, so after the Protodevlins were sealed. the SUpervision Army folks started doing what they were already doing before the Protodevlins appeared, fingthing the Zentradis.

Theory number 2

After the protodevlins were sealed. The Zentradis were reluctant to believe the Supervision Army were no longer a threat to them. So they were determined to exterminate them. The SUpervision Army had no other chance than starting a defensive war and run across the galaxy from such tremendous foe.

Maybe the Zentradis harbour a lot of grudge for the SA. Kind of what Macross 7 people felt about the Varauta Army. So the Zentradis were not really into the mood of forgetting and forgive; and they were not genetically engineered to forgive enemies, but to exterminate them.

[azrael]

IIRC, the Evil Series (later Protodevlin) was a trial test to create more powerful Zentradi by the Stellar Republic, not by those who were against the Stellar Republic. And all internal conflicts came to a halt after the Protodevlin and Supervision Army came into power.

http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/...0000/index.html

[Kasumi_Chan]

It was my understanding both factions of the Protoculture used Zentraedi.

[Duke Togo]

It was my understanding both factions of the Protoculture used Zentraedi.

Before the dark times... before the retcon.

[Warmaker]

Hooray for revisionism?

[Zinjo]

IIRC, the Evil Series (later Protodevlin) was a trial test to create more powerful Zentradi by the Stellar Republic, not by those who were against the Stellar Republic. And all internal conflicts came to a halt after the Protodevlin and Supervision Army came into power.

http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/...0000/index.html

I believe you are right. I got the impression the EVIL series were intended to put an end to the civil war.

The Supervision army were essentially a supervisory force or inspection force deployed to patrol and protect the research facilities that were growing the EVIL units. When the units became possessed, they fell under the spiritia being's mind control and system by system increased their ranks the same way. Because their were Protoculture "commanders(?)" among the SA the Zentreadi fleets were largely ineffective against the SA until their inhibitors against attacking PC were removed.

After the sealing of the PD, they continued to fight. It is not known whether it was because they were still mind controlled or if they were just fighting for their survival against a relentless opponent with superior numbers.

I don't recall any retcon that changes the use of Zentreadi on both sides in the Civil war??

[Kasumi_Chan]

I don't remember any retcons either.

[azrael]

I believe you are right. I got the impression the EVIL series were intended to put an end to the civil war.

The Supervision army were essentially a supervisory force or inspection force deployed to patrol and protect the research facilities that were growing the EVIL units. When the units became possessed, they fell under the spiritia being's mind control and system by system increased their ranks the same way. Because their were Protoculture "commanders(?)" among the SA the Zentreadi fleets were largely ineffective against the SA until their inhibitors against attacking PC were removed.

After the sealing of the PD, they continued to fight. It is not known whether it was because they were still mind controlled or if they were just fighting for their survival against a relentless opponent with superior numbers.

I don't recall any retcon that changes the use of Zentreadi on both sides in the Civil war??

Only a few, but just dates.

[BadMotherFokker]

It was my understanding both factions of the Protoculture used Zentraedi.

Then what would the Zentradi be called? Or what would the "Supervision" Zentradi be called to distinguish them from the army of Zentradi-only Zentradi? What's more, Britai and co. refer to "our microns" often in the original. So what would Zentradi microns be called to distinguish them from Supervision Army microns?

[BadMotherFokker]

Only a few, but just dates.

I like that the original poster, whoever you are, refers to them as an "Inspection" group. Literal translation of "監察軍” (what folks here have been calling the Supervision Army from Macross) is "Inspection Army." I suspect the whole thing was just a translation gaffe, and Supervision was obtained by looking up "観察軍” which translates either as "Observation Army" according to goo.jp or "Supervision" according to my dictionary.

Oh well, the damage is done. Try getting the English speaking world to stop saying "Japan" for that matter

Say, which sounds cooler? Inspection Army or Supervision Army?

[RedWolf]

Then what would the Zentradi be called? Or what would the "Supervision" Zentradi be called to distinguish them from the army of Zentradi-only Zentradi? What's more, Britai and co. refer to "our microns" often in the original. So what would Zentradi microns be called to distinguish them from Supervision Army microns?

From the mural message on Lux the Protoculture split into two factions.

Guess you can call one side the Stellar Republic the other as Anti-Stellar Republic.

Much like the UN and Anti-UN.

Thing is they didn't want one of their own getting wasted in war so they created clones to do their dirty work.

Macross Plus showed a similar line of thinking by replacing pilots with AI fighters.

Much like with the VF-0 and SV-51 both factions were able to spy on each other's weapons development.

But if you consider some parts of DYRL canon about Zentradi and Meltrandi being different groups of soldiers.

Considering the more machine like ships of the Meltradi and different uniforms as seen in Fleet of the Strongest Women and the ships and personnel of Bodol Zer being organic-like and mostly male.

One side used Zentrans while the other used Meltrans.

Later some fleet integration happened as both factions of Protoculture were pressed to unite under the threat of the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army.

Which could explain why Bodol Zer had relatively few females under his command.

[JB0]

I don't remember any retcons either.

It's debatable if they were really retcons. Much of the galaxy's history wasn't laid out until well after SDF Macross and DYRL, so challenges to long-standing assumptions are viewed as retcons.

And some people here argue that DYRL being a movie within the Macross universe and the TV series being canon, as opposed to the movie just being thrown away when sequels started coming, is a huge retcon that RUINS THEIR MOVIE somehow.

And there was a huge debate back and forth over the Global in Frontier being THE RETCON TO END ALL RETCONS because it was never EXPLICITLY STATED in the original series that there were more Macross-class ships built after the series ended, so CLEARLY that means that the SDF Macross was the only ship of it's kind.

With DYRL being officially "not real" and the original TV series being the "true story", Zero's the only show to have definite, no-questions-asked retcons... maybe.

There's ALSO debate about that. What elements of the VF-0 are present on the VF-1, and what didn't show up until the next VF down the line? Our beloved Valkyrie MIGHT have energy-convertiong armor, but it MIGHT NOT. It's debatable if it even had that spiffy eye-tracking targetting system.

So... what I'm trying to say is take retcon complaints with a grain of salt around here.

Also: Wow, this thread is old.

RedWolf: We don't actually know how many females served under Bodol in the TV series. Lap'Lamiz' fleet did, and they were certainly outnumbered by Kamjin and Britai's ships, but... the make up of the overall "megafleet" is a big fat question mark.

Though if Lap'Lamiz and crew were indicative of anything, there were probably a lot more guys across the board.

Chicks are elite warrior badasses, dudes are cannon-fodder grunts.

Unrelated: I hate Fleet of the Strongest Women.

[Gubaba]

Also: Wow, this thread is old.

I take exception to that remark, since it was because of me that it got started...

[VFTF1]

Say, which sounds cooler? Inspection Army or Supervision Army?

Inspection Army makes me think of either Inspector Gadget, or a throng of Soccer Moms chasing their children yelling "did you brush your teeth!? Did you comb your hair?!"

Personally, I have always been clueless about the Supervision army and wondered why the subject was never picked up again in Macross...

This thread has somewhat helped... but ...

I guess I just always found it odd that on the one hand, the Protoculture are these distant possibly extinct beings - but on the other hand, Boldoza and his multi-million ship fleet are actively pursuing a Supervision Army ship in pursuit of its' weapons technology... which means that the War the Protoculture spawned continues...

But... if guys like Boldoza know that the Protoculture are extinct - or quite possibly extinct (heck, they suspect that the humans are Protoculture), then why do they continue to fight the Protoculture's wars?

Are Zendradi so genetically driven that they cannot bear NOT to fight? Possible - but guys like Boldoza clearly find it necessary to maintain a certain semblence of lies; to keep the troops ignorant of culture and history - this means Boldoza concievably understands that more than war is possible, but he simply manipulates his men for power?

I never fully understood the Zendradi psyche in this regard....

Pete

[RedWolf]

Er... That's Robotech where the Zentradi chased the Macross for its protoculture energy.

In Macross the reason Vrlithwai chased the Macross is because he was intrigued that the miclones have created reaction weapons and is able to rebuild it.

Macross Frontier's ending makes me wonder if we misunderstood the nature of the Supervision Army.

We know that the Protoculture worship the Vajra and perhaps even Space Whales both of which can be labeled super dimensional creatures.

Here comes a bunch of super dimensional energy being creating their own faction with both Protoculture and Zentradi.

I mean it is possible that there are Protoculture that with free will chose to side with the Protodevlin. Collaborators perhaps but what if they saw them as new gods?

Freewilled Protoculture commanding the brainwashed Supervision Army forces with allegiance to the Protodevlin.

[dreamweaver13]

Er... That's Robotech where the Zentradi chased the Macross for its protoculture energy.

hey, don't say that. VFTF1 has already declared that he has never seen Robotech, and i find no reason to disbelieve him. right? right?

[Zinjo]

I like that the original poster, whoever you are, refers to them as an "Inspection" group. Literal translation of "監察軍" (what folks here have been calling the Supervision Army from Macross) is "Inspection Army." I suspect the whole thing was just a translation gaffe, and Supervision was obtained by looking up "観察軍" which translates either as "Observation Army" according to goo.jp or "Supervision" according to my dictionary.

Oh well, the damage is done. Try getting the English speaking world to stop saying "Japan" for that matter

Say, which sounds cooler? Inspection Army or Supervision Army?

If I remember correctly, sketchley once described the word as literally meaning "Inspection" however with a conotation or implication toward "supervision".

Now "Inspection" may be the closer literal translation, however if we literally translated Japanese into English it would sound like gibbersh, as the sentence structures are very different. The same goes with words. In English the idea of "inspection" is often inclusive in the term "Supervision" or supervisor. Thus for English speakers to better understand the term, I can understand why the army was termed "Supervision Army" for the English audiences initially.

Er... That's Robotech where the Zentradi chased the Macross for its protoculture energy.

In Macross the reason Vrlithwai chased the Macross is because he was intrigued that the miclones have created reaction weapons and is able to rebuild it.

Macross Frontier's ending makes me wonder if we misunderstood the nature of the Supervision Army.

We know that the Protoculture worship the Vajra and perhaps even Space Whales both of which can be labeled super dimensional creatures.

Here comes a bunch of super dimensional energy being creating their own faction with both Protoculture and Zentradi.

I mean it is possible that there are Protoculture that with free will chose to side with the Protodevlin. Collaborators perhaps but what if they saw them as new gods?

Freewilled Protoculture commanding the brainwashed Supervision Army forces with allegiance to the Protodevlin.

The PC didn't "worship" the Vajra, but they did admire and envy them quite a bit. It isn't clear whether the space whales are natural creatures or PC constructed, however with the existence of the Vajra, it does make one wonder...

I tend to entertain the notion that the SA are fleets of PC and Zentreadi who have come out of their mind controlled states and are simply fighting for their very lives. The Zentreadi are the agressors and the SA are simply fighting to keep from being wiped out of existence by a relentelss foe.

Thus far we've never seen an SA attack on a colony fleet, only Zentreadi.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Zinjo