All right, let's settle this once and for all...

[nathan]

You're right Kamjin. They did hurt themselves by saying no sequals and about wondering why Mr Kawamori needs to be the writer. He doesn't need to be. Sure I'd love for him to still be the mechanical designer but there's lots of Macross stories that can be told with out him.

Re-animate the original series - gather a new fan base and fix continuity problems

Tell new stories. Even if they're in OAV format or a short series. People would love to see them.

What I don't want to see is a love triangle where one of them is a singer and music solves everything. That's been way over done already.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It's only natural that humans would fight each other due to the mixture of zentreadi and human mixing together. Just based on the tv series, you would think humans would not trust thier alien friends and some would distance themselves after sw1.

I would love to see a repeat of the events in the original series only this time music is apreciated on both sides and there is a lot of defection going on on both sides, with most of the main characters much more cynical of the politics and of thier own government like the main character in macross II. The soldiers in this new era would feel like combatants in a gladiatorial arena forced to fight each other by thier corrupt leaders. Later drawn between loyalty for thier "cause" and a love for thier own enemy. (do aliens ever play the good guys? And really as wise as the protoculture were there own republic split)

That's basically what the original tv series was about to me. Sure Hikaru could have been mad that max would be attracted to an alien enemy in the original series, but if Max could demonstrate to people that love for the enemy can lead to peace than it is true that magic is the key to disarming a physically powerful foe. Fighting destruction with destruction only leads to more destruction. All those cannon fodders were people who were there by necessity wishing for it to end, some possibly kids.

Music winning wars may look cheesy but I like to think it's not so much the music but the emotions it stirs up in people. I don't see the difference here to the way movies (apocalypse now?) can be used to move people (provided they are not propaganda) and change thier opinions. If people can use art to change other people's lives then it's not so unlikely that music can be used to affect the soul.

The thing that starts wars is the greediness to gain more power(If people could predict the future and outcome of a war, would they enter a war they knew they were going to lose?), with leaders stirring up enough hate in the people for more support to go and fight for them to gain them something, with the only exception being that people fight to defend. But the casualties are always the same. And people's hate for "the enemy" at the losses due to the war only keeps the war going because it fuels even *more* hate - "I must get revenge!". The hate then is emotional rather than logical and to take an example from star wars: Unlike normal people, Jedi knights in star wars can never give into; and are forbidden from; giving into the dark side through emotional hate.

But so often we see a hero made out of hate (hollywood movies) because of thier emotion at losing something and us seeing them slowly turning into a vigilante who outdoes his enemy in killing, which isn't realistic or original anymore. In the original series, I liked the fact that hikaru needed to think about his actions, only being heroic towards the end as a protector, not gung ho and artificial because action fans think its cool to see exploding mecha.

The problem I think with cartoons back during the 80s (and one of the reasons which got me into macross) was how black and white the characters were and because macross (in the form of robotech) came out, it stood out alot amoungst adults as well as kids. People could for once actually watch a cartoon as a soap because it touched on issues that were semi-realistic. Sure the sci-fi fans love the giant robots and mecha, but it's silly to think that the popularity of a series is solely because of that alone. (even with cool designs an audience will tune out) It really needs a good story which can interest the masses and not to only please a niche audience. Giant robots and mecha by themselves are a dime a dozen, but character that you care about not so.

An analogy from star wars:

In star wars the main characters were actually pretty real (there's something very world war II about it) and the revealing parts (omg Darth Vader is Luke's dad?!) were what gripped a mainstream audience and what created memorable moments.

Luke only disarmed his Dad through love, (similar to the way minmay's music disarmed the zentreadi) and because Vader's heart was not into it (into killing his own son) he took the light side in the end. Demonstrating that even if the exterior shows a cold, droidlike, unfeeling puppet to an evil manipulating dark force; there is still a person under there, that person not being evil, but rather being used and perverted to evil ends like a mind-altered assasin. All the aliens races are just the background (filler) into the rest of the movie, with various shades of grey within each race. (why is it that in sci fi movies there is the habit that everyone who isn';t human must think the same? wear the same clothes, walk the same etc?)

Sure watching Jedi knights is "cool" when they are kicking ass onscreen (and isn't it thier duty to fight and destroy evil? Logic and thier teachings say this right?) but for that situation in particular love (just like the minmay attack) was the only thing that could have ended the wars and one reason I think Yoda was much too reluctant to reveal the link of Vader to Luke in the beginning. (not even a Jedi knight could be expected to kill his dad after all. All the beliefs, all the 'reason and wisdom' of the older and more experienced isn't going to make Luke's path any easier, since all yoda could really do is train luke to be a perfect warrior, not an asassin/killer with no conscience.

In the fifth element you have a similar thing going on underneath: the four "magic" elements (water fire, wind etc) we are so often seeing in role playing games are the keys to fulfilling the ritual at the end of the movie, but the most important and final element (the fifth element) was love. The magical significance of love is sort of cheesy and all, but it makes sense symbolically as it can be seen as a non-destructive 'weapon' that can defeat anything.

Because mainstream audiences can connect to realistic characters in semi realistic settings, I think if they had to make another macross series, it would need to cut away from side stories to maintain the resurgecne of interest and get back to the roots imo. (that is a person who is not necessarily a fan or concerned about the filler in the background) Hopefully riding on the success of the roots of what made macross great, and seeing follow-up toys and stuff. As much as I love macross plus and zero as the rest of the fans, it seemed to be aimed only for existing fanbase but risks alienating others no matter how good it is at what it was originally aiming for by the creator. (treated as a stand-alone, one-off thing) The macross plus story is flat to somebody who is not a fan of macross. This is a negative point in creating a side story to an old series for a fanbase that might have moved on.

But you can still be original and yet still maintain a mass audience. It's just a stereotype to think that just because you repeat something it has to be unoriginal and overdone. (comes from a lifetime watching poorly-executed sequels?) They probably could reanimate the original but personally I would much rather a new series which physically reorganises; while also symbolically retells, the same basic story as the original. When misa and hikaru are fighting against each other in the beginning, it parrallells with how the zentreadi and humans are fighting. Towards the end, the theme of love plays, and we see misa and hikaru become lovers (which is so unlikely) as does the humans and zentreadi in the form of zentreadi loving minmay and human culture. Macrocosm and microcosm - The theme being played in the small scale - hikaru and misa fighting and hating each other's guts -, and large scale - the war of humans vs aliens. And meanwhile Minmay's music and love songs bringing the two halfs together in the background.

Like someone else said I think when you leave big gaps between releases, people will forget, but look at some totally re-made cartoons in the US like the ninja turtles. The original toon may not have captured what the original creator had in mind as closely as it has to the later version. (new turtles is much more cinematic) I remember reading the original turtle comic (I had the first print issue 1) and it was much darker than the 80s cartoon, more close to the newer toon shown today. And the newer toon, although using the same characters, has been reorganised enough to maintain interest for people who had seen the old 80s version and the 80s live action movie. ie it's still fresh besides being essentially the same thing over again.

Edited August 26, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Panon]

I don't see how you can say Kawamori has little left and to move on it would need to be without him.

Under his vision, each part of the Macross universe has been it's own unique and distinctive entity. How many long running series can claim that about themselves?

The other main point is.. why does Macross need to expand more? I think the limited amount of shows it has and that most aren't far removed from the original is one of it's greatest strengths.

More doesn't equal better, and I'd honestly rather not have a point in the future where I look at Macross and see something that has stretched so far into the future beyond the original that it may as well have no connection at all, or something that has numerous OVAs/movies stuffed into every conceivable part of the timeline where something could have been told.

[Drad]

More doesn't equal better, and I'd honestly rather not have a point in the future where I look at Macross and see something that has stretched so far into the future beyond the original that it may as well have no connection at all, or something that has numerous OVAs/movies stuffed into every conceivable part of the timeline where something could have been told.

Yeah. Definitely agreed, there. There is such a thing as straying too far from the original.. so far that you lose almost everything that made the series enjoyable in the first place.

[eugimon]

More doesn't equal better, and I'd honestly rather not have a point in the future where I look at Macross and see something that has stretched so far into the future beyond the original that it may as well have no connection at all, or something that has numerous OVAs/movies stuffed into every conceivable part of the timeline where something could have been told.

Yeah. Definitely agreed, there. There is such a thing as straying too far from the original.. so far that you lose almost everything that made the series enjoyable in the first place.

no, I disagree... I think if a universe is fleshed out well enough, you can tell all sorts of stories without having to reference the original plot/characters.

[Kamjin 639]

More doesn't equal better, and I'd honestly rather not have a point in the future where I look at Macross and see something that has stretched so far into the future beyond the original...

I agree and disagree. While I would certainly love to see the next series "Hikaru and Misa: The Megaroad Chronicles," the fact is that it would never work. (Maybe a manga...hmm...are you listening, Mikimoto?) A new Macross needs to be detached from the original. Why?--Because its been broken for a VERY long time. If, for instance, Gundam had gone for fifteen years without a Universal Century series, by the time that they made a new one, not too many people would have paid attention, barring the olden hardcore fans.

Lets face it: We're hardcore fans. That's why we're here. We would probably love a sequel directly to the original story. But it wouldn't work; there wouldn't be enough fandom for it. This is why Macross needs a new direction--because its no longer plausible to look back and make a successful series. My suggestion for a director aside from Kawamori was not malicious, but let's face it: He might be too old-school for the new fans. Kawamori IS Macross as far as I'm concerned, but in the end, that might be his downfall.

I would certainly not mind if Kawamori "pulled a Hajime Yatate" and co-directed/wrote the next Macross story. Don't throw an excellent man aside; simply make room...there's a new flight to be taken, and Macross needs a new co-pilot to succeed in today's world of animation.

[Keith]

Wait a minute now, Macross without Kawamori? Bold new directions? It sounds more like you want a different series than a different "Macross." At which point I say, "go watch something else." Franchises always loose their special "quality" when they're handed off to someone else. Bottom line is, it wouldn't be "Macross" if Kawamori & Studio Nue weren't involved. Worse yet, do you even remember Macross II?

I personally think it would become a hollow shell of itself if something so dramatically different were to be done. If Macross were just a series about trasnforming airplanes, that'd be one thing. But Macross itself is specifically about the power of people to overcome war by communicating their emotions through music. What you guys are saying is akin to a Harlock series without Matsumoto, why freakin' bother! (Matsumoto being a great example just for the reason that he's been going for so many years).

Take a look at the Gundam franchise for instance. True it is still going, but it no longer reflects what it once was. It used to be about humans coping with the onset of evolution, not just giant samurai robots fighting in space.

I guess it really comes down to what you're more interested in. Quality or quantity. I'd personaslly rather have a few Macross series at the quality of what's been released, as opposed to a deluge of Macross series at the quality of pokemon.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well, according to ancient legends the prophecised end of the world points to 2012, quite significant to some.

In the original macross tv series that is the year when the photo album ends.

I'm thinking that (apart from what's told) there isn't much more to tell. I'm waiting to see if those characters in macross zero escape the coming violence through an ancient wormhole. (they deserve some peace) heh I hope there will be more macross to come in whatever form it takes. Even if it's just a remake with all the designs and proper story melded together and reanimated for the fans. Maybe sparking interest from a new generation of fans.

Edited August 26, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Drad]

More doesn't equal better, and I'd honestly rather not have a point in the future where I look at Macross and see something that has stretched so far into the future beyond the original that it may as well have no connection at all, or something that has numerous OVAs/movies stuffed into every conceivable part of the timeline where something could have been told.

Yeah. Definitely agreed, there. There is such a thing as straying too far from the original.. so far that you lose almost everything that made the series enjoyable in the first place.

no, I disagree... I think if a universe is fleshed out well enough, you can tell all sorts of stories without having to reference the original plot/characters.

True, but I was referring more to the loss of critical elements that make the series successful to begin with. Improvements are fine. A certain amount of reinvention is also necessary, to a point. Otherwise things get stale. But as far as the critical elements are concerned...

.. if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[nathan]

People believe that Macross has the them that music conquers all. Play the enemy a song and they'll become your friend. That isn't true!!! Not only will the enemy will alway's enjoy your music after your dead in Macross Plus the one singing was the bad guy. And the evil singing hologram/black blox on wheels was defeated. So music will not always will.

And what happens when both sides have music? Or a TV series? In Nadessico both sides had the same TV series so which one was the good side? (And I never got sick of the music either!) Both sides had music in MII as well and both sides used it to motivate thier troops to fight. And not to defend thier homes but to defeat thier enemies. So who's the good guys?

Plenty of great macross stories could be told without Kawamori. Lucas created Star Wars and many other great writes added to it. Then Lucas came back in and screwed it all up. I'm not saying Kawamori would do that but it's already happened a bit with the Official design/story mess and with Macross Zero. Maybe a new version of Macross would smooth out the mess as well as bring in new fans. I would love to see a longer Macross where many of the event's in the time line, before Macross are included, then the main Macross story (with corrections and needed changes to fit with official designs), and ending with the SDF-1's refit and the Megaroads launching cerimony. And then add in other stories. There's already an Anti-UN movement established. How about a story with them? Maybe they're be the good guys and the UN the agressor? Or the first UN contact with the Zolans? There's lots of stories to be told. Sure there's the potential for Macross ending up like Star Trek but if they're careful that wont happen.

[Radd]

What mess?

[Keith]

People believe that Macross has the them that music conquers all. Play the enemy a song and they'll become your friend. That isn't true!!!

Music is only the medium used due to its universal appeal. Music also doesn't require you to understand what language its being sung in to understand the emotion portrayed through it. The emotions reaching out from one individual to another is what Macross is about. As well as the fact that merely fighting against those who appose you will not end a conflict, and often times will result on both sides losing. Macross is about finding a mutual understanding to end a conflict, and again the means that it uses is through music.

Not only will the enemy will alway's enjoy your music after your dead in Macross Plus the one singing was the bad guy. And the evil singing hologram/black blox on wheels was defeated. So music will not always will.

Again, Macross has nothing to do with the enemy "enjoying" music. That's merely the medium by which Macross expresses its message. And Sharon Apple in Plus was an example of what I'm saying to you now. Music isn't a tool to control others. But expressing your emotion to others & reaching out to them with your heart "can" make a difference. What Plus showed was that Sharon Apple with all her heartless singing & mind control was nothing compared to Myung reaching out with her heart to awaken Isamu.

And what happens when both sides have music? Or a TV series? In Nadessico both sides had the same TV series so which one was the good side? (And I never got sick of the music either!) Both sides had music in MII as well and both sides used it to motivate thier troops to fight. And not to defend thier homes but to defeat thier enemies. So who's the good guys?

Macross II was another example of how the entire point in Macross can be missed. The Macross didn't defeat the Zentradi because it had music. It was the emotions awakened in the spies that went to investigate the ship, and in turn their sharing those emotions with fellow crew, and so on, and so forth, that caused Britai's fleet to coup & decide to protect human culture. Merely singing at them would have only caused the temporary effect of "culture shock." That shock wears off quickly though, and Earth & the Macross would have been quickly destroyed.

Plenty of great macross stories could be told without Kawamori. Lucas created Star Wars and many other great writes added to it.

Most of those stories, whether you personaslly like them or not, are considered little more than "fanfiction," and yes, I'm talking about the officially licensed novels. When all is said & done, they have no bearing on the official story. I say again, mass of stories does not equate to quality of a franchise.

Then Lucas came back in and screwed it all up.

In fairness, Lucas is a nut, and never was a great director to begin with.

I'm not saying Kawamori would do that but it's already happened a bit with the Official design/story mess and with Macross Zero. Maybe a new version of Macross would smooth out the mess as well as bring in new fans. I would love to see a longer Macross where many of the event's in the time line, before Macross are included, then the main Macross story (with corrections and needed changes to fit with official designs), and ending with the SDF-1's refit and the Megaroads launching cerimony. And then add in other stories. There's already an Anti-UN movement established. How about a story with them? Maybe they're be the good guys and the UN the agressor? Or the first UN contact with the Zolans? There's lots of stories to be told. Sure there's the potential for Macross ending up like Star Trek but if they're careful that wont happen.

Kawamori has turned out quality product thus far, and that's all you can really ask. I'd prefer a little high quality Macross, to a lot of mediocre macross, with lots of people reaching their hands into the pot & putting their spins on it. Hell, thats one of the reasons why I really hate american comics. I sure as hell don't want to see Macross turn into something convouted like that. If you like what's already been made, then great. If you want something more or different, then there are lots of different series out there to explore, and no shortage of them with cool mecha.

[Gui]

I have to agree with Keith on his latest point: more doesn't obligatory equal better. But, I'd also be pleased to see different approaches to the Macross concept through the eyes of other talented directors (I do NOT mean I'd like to see zillions of them, one or two, maybe three spread on a decade or something like that would be more than enough) as long as they're well done, i.e. with the approval of Kawamori himself

An 'example' is Macross 7 Trash, which is not the best Macross story but still presents some good points and is an enjoyable spin-off IMO (the fact that Mikimoto has been personnaly involved into the main Macross shows until now may be the reason behind the quality of this work). It doesn't screw up anything in the whole franchise and add a different feeling that Kawamori may not have been able to imagine himself: from this point of view, it makes Macross richer

[Oihan]

And what happens when both sides have music? Or a TV series? In Nadessico both sides had the same TV series so which one was the good side? (And I never got sick of the music either!) Both sides had music in MII as well and both sides used it to motivate thier troops to fight. And not to defend thier homes but to defeat thier enemies. So who's the good guys?

Macross II was another example of how the entire point in Macross can be missed. The Macross didn't defeat the Zentradi because it had music. It was the emotions awakened in the spies that went to investigate the ship, and in turn their sharing those emotions with fellow crew, and so on, and so forth, that caused Britai's fleet to coup & decide to protect human culture. Merely singing at them would have only caused the temporary effect of "culture shock." That shock wears off quickly though, and Earth & the Macross would have been quickly destroyed.

I disagree with that. When Ishtar sang "Mou Ichido-Love You" the emulators heard her song, were moved, and stopped singing for Ingus. I'm not sure if they sung a different song afterwards (while Ingus punished them for not singing for him), but they all stopped attacking the UN and turned on Ingus because the emulators/Marduk were moved by her song.

And Macross w/o Shoji Kawamori would suck, but that wouldn't change my love for Macross.

Edited for grammar

Edited August 30, 2004 by Oihan

[Keith]

I disagree with that. When Ishtar sang "Mou Ichido-Love You" the emulators heard her song, were moved, and stopped singing for Ingus. I'm not sure if they sung a different song afterwards (while Ingus punished them for not singing for him), but they all stopped attacking the UN and turned on Ingus because the emulators/Marduk were moved by her song.

Actually, the emulator's had tired of singing the song of destruction, and Ingus started shooting at them, naturally they'd be receptive to anything positive after that .

And Macross w/o Shoji Kawamori would suck, but that wouldn't change my love for Macross.

Not the Macross that came before, but what about the newer stuff that would suck?

[Prime]

Then Lucas came back in and screwed it all up.

Opinions on the new movies aside, I think that it is safe to say that the movies and the merchandise spawned from them have been a commercial success. He has screwed it up in the eyes of a certain segment of the fanbase, but there is also a significant portion that like the new stuff. From what I have seen, people seem to think Jedi are a lot cooler now than when it was only Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda...

Many seem not to like it because it is so different from the feel of the originals. I suspect the same would happen with Macross if they deviated too much from the originals. Hell, Macross 7 is pretty different, and look a the mixed feelings that gets.

[Oihan]

I disagree with that. When Ishtar sang "Mou Ichido-Love You" the emulators heard her song, were moved, and stopped singing for Ingus. I'm not sure if they sung a different song afterwards (while Ingus punished them for not singing for him), but they all stopped attacking the UN and turned on Ingus because the emulators/Marduk were moved by her song.

Actually, the emulator's had tired of singing the song of destruction, and Ingus started shooting at them, naturally they'd be receptive to anything positive after that .

And Macross w/o Shoji Kawamori would suck, but that wouldn't change my love for Macross.

Not the Macross that came before, but what about the newer stuff that would suck?

So I doubt it was culture shock.

The fact that Macross II had Haruhiko Mikimoto was enough for me. So Macross II is an exception. But anything w/o either Mikimoto or Kawamori wouldn't be the same...have to have one of the two if not both.

Edited August 31, 2004 by Oihan

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

And the evil singing hologram/black blox on wheels was defeated

heh Yeah but she cheated by using "manchurian-candidate"-style mind control to hypnotise and control. You'll note the theme of the holohgraphic character's evil 'third eye' in the holograms to stun the people and control them, reading thier thoughts and shaping themselves to what the person wants to control. One breed of song was destructive, (a song of death which corrupts, controls and manipulates) the other non-destructive. (love songs) For all we know it may not have even been music which was responsible but let's asume it was. (as I said the people looked like they were in some form of drug induced hypnotic state at the sharon apple concert)

Hypnotism is real. Here's some info on mind control and the SSS spectrum:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/mindcontrol.html

more on patent : http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...RS=PN/5,159,703

This is what I theorise how a computer could take control of the crew, by first hypnotising, programming instructions into thier subconscious which would later be triggered and unlocked without them being conscious of it, sparking a multiple personality and then carrying out the plans. (like the way sleeper assasins are mind conditioned)

Myung mentions how much she hated her songs and the blackbox. Were they really her songs if they didn't come from the heart though? She gave up her real singing career a long time ago.

Same thing happened with minmay, towards the end Hikaru and Misa ask her why she sings? It's not for the fans, and to be famous, (she was trying to escape attention) not for herself? Then who? I like to think she was singing for her soul and the emotions people also feel in her lyrics, the melody, etc were the awakening of people who had felt/or wanted to feel those things she was singing about. They wanted to share it. But she can't really express them in her music if she isn't motivated by what she is truly feeling. It would be fake. She would sense that herself once she lost the feeling to sing.

Given that the zentreadi are all clones, and essentially mind-conditioned to be killing machines, whose only intructions are to destroy, destroy, destroy - they had no soul. Minmays music gave them one.(or awakened something that was always lying dormant in thier earlier culture)

Some religious people who are against cloning might like to explain this by saying that cloning humans results in merely a human 'shell', a physical body, in that it wasn't given a spirit since it was not made by God (through the union of 2 people in love) so the clones lacks a soul. (there is a theme in the street fighter games where the main villain is part of a secret society called shadlaw and he purposely clones bodies for his demonic spirit to inhabit. A clone without a god-given spirit is an empty vessel free for a demon spirit to possess/control. This is what I think happens when other-dimensional beings possess people, because in order for it to be possible, you have to allow your own soul to leave its body to let 'them/it' in. )

Therefore given that the creation of a soul is when 2 people join together, you could say answer the question of: "what it means to be human?" with the answer... love. It's the hidden ingredient that gives meaning to life. If minmay has no passion in her music, what good will it do to motivate soldiers and remind them of what they are protecting? It would be hypocritical. The love song is the central theme and reminder.

In fifth element the hidden ingredient after applying the 4 other elements (wind, earth, fire, water etc) was love.

Ghost in the Shell? Answers the questions of whether machines have souls even after giving up all of thier physical body. The main character is unfeeling, mechanical and is searching to be human again - she falls in love with another machine! Proving there is a soul in the shell.

Matrix Trilogy? The hidden ingredient missing from previous Neo's was that they all lacked love. The architect could not understand what it was in all previous neos that resulted in his world being destroyed, because he himself only thinks logically and lacks emotion and passion in his work (he is merely a robot thinking in mathematical terms) which ultimately makes the matrix destroy itself after a time.

But with love, (the oracle may have arranged for trinity to fall in love with neo this time) the current version of neo is able to prevent the destruction by demonstrating. The lesson however is love may not last forever (and the french guy is an example of what could happen when it goes sour over a long time) and this is why the architect continues to be remain cautiously skeptical of the future at the end. But it DOES end the war with the machines nonetheless. Because Neo (a techno jesus) did not die for himself, but for everyone.

If you take the matrix example, apply it to macross, minmay is the same at the end where she has to shed her innocence and be honest with herself. Does she love Hikaru, or is she just yearning for the past and for someone to protect her whenever she feels vulnerable? Hikaru protected her many times. (it may have been romantic but things change and now he wants to protect everyone)

Love was fleeting and Hikaru moved on, focusing on a new goal. Protecting culture for everyone. (this is similar to the way jedi knights are forbidden to fall in love with only a particular person, but rather an idea: to love everyone. In the end love saved the day, ending the war) Now that is the same with minmay, she had to remain aware of her music for other people but find her passion again. Hikaru fights for the same reason minmay sings. Without her singing there is no hope to end wars altogether. This is the reason kyle had to leave so she could gather her thoughts and mature into a woman to see the effect her music has to others.

You'll see a similar maturing of Hikaru throughout the series: he doesn't love the war, he doesn't continue being a soldier just to impress a girl anymore; or even because he loves flying, he gives up all those romantic boyish dreams, for reality and becomes a man by serving a greater purpose for the benefit of the people. There is really no time to mope around because its life or death.

Now here's the key difference between evil music and good music: The reference to satan's dolls is equivalent to mindcontrolled puppets. With minmay's singing, the zentreadi were being UN-conditioned/de-programmed to kill rather than conditioned/programmed to love. (love was something that was always there in nature until the protoculture perverted it through genetic engineering and mind conditioning). Music then, just returned them back to thier nature. (like the way Darthvader had to be returned back to his good old self. Luke wasn't perverting truth the way the emperor was. We all though Darth vader was cool and cold all along. But he's a normal guy who was perverted and seduced through manipulation.)

As for the emulators: The music the emulators used was more akin to mindcontrol than awakening feelings and emotions that were naturally within people. The good guys just want people to forget destructive forms of behavior, and focus on productive, 'creative' ones. As necessary as they were for defence, the war-like leaders of both sides (adimaral hayes, Bodolza) had to die because all they wanted was to control and manipulate people rather than look at peacful solutions. Why? They are scared! Demons feed on fear and it is the reason yoda warns about "fear" in star wars. "fear leads to anger, anger to hate" etc

Now whereas music is the medium, the *intentions* of the person singing the music can change the effect it will have. The emulator music was for purely destructive purposes, while the minmay 'attack' music was for motivation, and *reminding* people what they have back on earth to protect. (probably girlfriends, family, other loved ones.) Remember Minmay's music wasn't intentioned from the beginning to brainwash the aliens and for distraction - only for liftng people's spirits. You'll see this whole "protection" wording used a lot in macross plus. The two rivals promise to protect myung from danger because they both love her which stems from 'weak' emotions, but this protection thinking keeps civilisation going.

In nature birds protect thier young and aren't afraid to attack you if you go near thier eggs even if they are afraid to die, wheres snakes and reptiles have no problem eating thier young. One is unselfish preservation of the many at the expense of the few, the other is selfish survival benefiting only the elite. I would say that the leaders who order thier lower ranks to go and destroy! destroy! destroy! (and even destroying thier own guys to to breed more fear), are categorised in the latter reptillian group, while the ones who are "afraid to fight, but prepared and ready to fight when danger threatens thier loved ones", fall into the former category. The end result may be the same: survive! But the intentions of the former are more noble. A person willing to fight to defend others is far more dangerous to thier enemy than a person saving thier own skin, which is why the love song theme is central.

This is why I liked the characters in macross because of that element of realism which explores the grey areas in the main characters alot more. You CAN tell the difference between the good guys and bad by getting a view of the whole spectrum and what the characters are all about. The aliens aren't black and white either, they are not blanket evil since they are just reflections of ourselves on a bigger scale. Its not just a case of 2 armies killing each other for gain.

Edited August 31, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[nathan]

What mess?

Saying that the TV series has the official story while the movie the official designs.

The official Movie ARMDs could not have engaged the Zentraedi fleet as the offcial designs do not have the same weapons the TV story ARMDs use.

Seens with Bodolza would have to be rewritten or scrapped entiredly as they couldn't happen with the Official Bodolza as the giant cyborg. No Picking up Misa. No sitting around the table talking with Britai, Exedol and the spies, and definately no Bodolza sitting in Britai's chair when Max crashes threw his viscreen and flys over his bridge!

How could the Official Exedol character have ben micronized and wear a UN unifor with those tenticle arms? Sure that was supposed to have happened after SWI but really? Why have Exedol remain the TV version when Britai and all the other Zentraedi become movie versions?

No VF-1X valkeries. They would have been standard issue during the TV Series so if the movie designs are the official designs of the story just how were they upgraded later?

And the post SW-I seens with LapLamis would be impossible as she's the female version of the movie Bodolza. No way she'd fit into an officer's pod.

Not to mention that TV Zentraedi are bigger than Movie Zentraedi. Max could never have gotten a uniform of a Movie Zentraedi on over his battloid.

See a mess. A new version of Macross could fix that with one official story and one official design.

Music is only the medium used due to its universal appeal. Music also doesn't require you to understand what language its being sung in to understand the emotion portrayed through it. The emotions reaching out from one individual to another is what Macross is about. As well as the fact that merely fighting against those who appose you will not end a conflict, and often times will result on both sides losing. Macross is about finding a mutual understanding to end a conflict, and again the means that it uses is through music.

That may be but to think an enemy that hates you is going to try and stop from killing you just because you play them a song is silly. Just imagine what the taliban would do to Minmay.

Again, Macross has nothing to do with the enemy "enjoying" music. That's merely the medium by which Macross expresses its message. And Sharon Apple in Plus was an example of what I'm saying to you now. Music isn't a tool to control others. But expressing your emotion to others & reaching out to them with your heart "can" make a difference. What Plus showed was that Sharon Apple with all her heartless singing & mind control was nothing compared to Myung reaching out with her heart to awaken Isamu.

You missed my point. Music was being used as a weapon and as a meens to control. Music used for those purposes is hardly noble.

Macross II was another example of how the entire point in Macross can be missed. The Macross didn't defeat the Zentradi because it had music. It was the emotions awakened in the spies that went to investigate the ship, and in turn their sharing those emotions with fellow crew, and so on, and so forth, that caused Britai's fleet to coup & decide to protect human culture. Merely singing at them would have only caused the temporary effect of "culture shock." That shock wears off quickly though, and Earth & the Macross would have been quickly destroyed.

I think seeing the swimsuit competition did more to get the Zentraedi's interest than singing did. And what kept thier interest was seeing and hearing something new. And music wasn't enough to keep thier interest. I would think that most people would get tired of hearing the same songs over and over again. Song lose thier impact and in some cases can become down right irritating if heard to much. What captured thier imagination was the intercepted video signals and the stories from the spies about how different life was on the SDF-1. Music was only a part of the entire cultural contamination the Zentraedi experienced.

Most of those stories, whether you personaslly like them or not, are considered little more than "fanfiction," and yes, I'm talking about the officially licensed novels. When all is said & done, they have no bearing on the official story. I say again, mass of stories does not equate to quality of a franchise.

It depends on who is in charge of the franchise. Some franchises actively toss the official story. Some franchises were better off with the "fanfiction" than with the new "official"story. And yes more doesn't always meen better but my point was that a great Macross story does not have to come from Kawamori.

In fairness, Lucas is a nut, and never was a great director to begin with.

Well his older movies were good but he has gone towards the nutty side of the schwartz.

Kawamori has turned out quality product thus far, and that's all you can really ask. I'd prefer a little high quality Macross, to a lot of mediocre macross, with lots of people reaching their hands into the pot & putting their spins on it. Hell, thats one of the reasons why I really hate american comics. I sure as hell don't want to see Macross turn into something convouted like that. If you like what's already been made, then great. If you want something more or different, then there are lots of different series out there to explore, and no shortage of them with cool mecha.

He has his moments but so far his best two Macross'es are the TV series and the movie (When they were parallel universes.) 7 and the others were ok but not nearly as good. And it's not nice to generalise like that but I do agree. A few additional writers can add to a story but too many people playing with a story can ruin the whole thing

[Valkfan]

you'd be hard pressed to find a child of the early 1980s that loved Robotech, GI Joe, Transformers, Voltron, He-Man, StarBlazers, AND Thundercats all together... simply too many different areas of interest to cover

Wow, I didn't know that I'm considered a rare fan of so many interest. Actually, I really liked He-Man because of the fluid character animation which I thought was the best at the time. However, I HATED THAT STUPID LITTLE ORCO CHARACTER! He and Snarf from Thundercats were like the Jar Jar Binks of the 80's.