VF-19P?

[Gideon Krieg]

Okay, I've seen the Macross 7 awsome VF-19S and VF-19F models from Ban Dai. But what the heck is a VF-19P? Egan Loo's site lists it as VF-19P: Version based on VF-19 Custom. Assigned to planet Zola's patrol force.

I have not seen Dynamite 7 yet, so this could be the cause of the confusion. Is it a limited production version of Basara's VF-19 custom? Or is it a mass production version used to fill in the VF-1J gap. It would seem that the VF-19 has a VF-1A equivalent (the F model) and a VF-1S equivalent (the VF-19S), so is the VF-19P/the fire valkyre the equivalent of the VF-19J in the UN Spacy military structure?

Just curious.

[Skippy438]

Well, technically the VF-19F would be the "J" type of the -19s. The VF-19A (only featured in the games) is the "A" variant. But to answer your actual question, the VF-19P is the VF-19 that appears in Dynamite 7. It features sound boosters similar to the 19 Kai Basara uses in the series. I'll refrain from telling much more due to possible spoilers (although there really isn't much else to say about it)

[Nied]

Based on what we see of it in Dynamite 7 (no spoilers here) and in the lineart, I would say that the VF-19P is a cheap export designed to be sold to cash strapped colony worlds and the like. The P's head apears to have a more primitive optics system than other VF-19 variants (and may have cruder avionics all around), and it lacks the big multi use weapons bays in the legs, replacing them with VF-5000 style micro missile launchers.

[Druna Skass]

So basicaly the VF-19P is the GM of the other VF-19s?

[Boxer]

VF-19P = Production type

VF-19P = Pirate type???

It seems rather silly for the Zolans to have their hands on a state-of-the art VF-19 fighter when not even the Mac7 Fleet has them in widespread use. At least they don't have their hands on the VF-22....

Another possible reason is that the pirates stole a shipment of VF-19 and/or the parts to these aircraft and were forced to use more primitive avionics and systems to keep up with maintenance. the VF-19P designation would then be from UN Spacy reports of the stolen VF-19s.

Edited August 18, 2004 by Boxer

[Graham]

VF-19P = Pirate type???

Another possible reason is that the pirates stole a shipment of VF-19 and/or the parts to these aircraft and were forced to use more primitive avionics and systems to keep up with maintenance.

The pirates do not have the VF-19P. It's the Zolan Patrol forces that have the VF-19P

(P = patrol?)

Graham

[Boxer]

My bad. I haven't seen M7, so I assumed they were pirates.

So maybe it's a (P)rivate production type?

But it begs to ask why would the UN Spacy mass-produce and sell a state-of-the-art fighter that is to be the (ugly) replacement main fighter? If renegade Zentreadi or the Anti-UN remnants get a hold of one they'll know everything about the next front-line UN Spacy fighter they'll be up against.

But I assume that explains why there are changes from the Production type -19 and the 19P type. Even so, the only reason I can think of for the UNS to sell 19 types and not surplus production stock (Say the -14 or more -11s) is to cover their outrageous cost.

[Graham]

I've always followed the theory that the VF-19P is a slightly downgraded export version of the VF-19.

As for why the the Zolan Galactic Whale Patrol has been issued or allowed to purchased a VF-19P in 2047, my theory is that due to the serious nature of the Galactic Whale Poaching problem and the increasingly heavy armament used by the whale poachers (VA-3C, VF-11, VF-17 etc), it was felt necessary for the Zolan Patrol to have a more modern Variable Fighter than their extremely outdated VF-5000Gs. As the VF-5000's first flight was in 2018, you have to consider that by 2047 it is already a 29 year old design!

I would imagine that the Zolan Planetary Government put in a request for the latest fighter with Shinsei Industries and due to the seriousness of the whale poaching problem, the UN Government back on Earth fast-tracked the purchase and export approval.

Graham

[Keith]

Considering the Zolan Patrol already had a full compliment of VF-3000's, why not send them a VF-19P as well. Since the plan was to make it the replacement mainline fighter everywhere, might as well start distributing them everywhere. Colony fleet's have the means of constructing their own using their factory ships, so there's no external costs to any of them having them. It would seem more likely that problem area's put them into production first, which makes perfect sense.

BTW, rogue Zentradi fleets don't have the means of backwards engineering technology, so that's not even remotely an issue. Pirates are going to steal whatever they're going to steal (including fold boosters & reaction weapons), so that also isn't an issue.

[Radd]

I actually thought the VF-19P looked a helluva lot nicer than the VF-19S seen in the regular M7 series.

[Graham]

It seems rather silly for the Zolans to have their hands on a state-of-the art VF-19 fighter when not even the Mac7 Fleet has them in widespread use. At least they don't have their hands on the VF-22....

This is something that gets discussed on these forums from time to time and back in the late 1990s, I wrote an essay (which is still floating around the internet somewhere) on the various differences of the VF-19 variants.

Anyway, my theory as to why the Macross 7 fleet only had a limited number of VF-19F/S fighters is as follows: -

Although the decision was made in 2041 to adopt the VF-19 as the next main variable fighter to replace the VF-11, that does not mean that the VF-19 would immediately enter service the same year. In fact it would probably be several years before the first operational VF-19 squadron becomes active.

Consider that it takes time to manufacture tooling, set up production facilities get the production line rolling, train instructor pilots and maintenance personal etc etc.

And of course there is the issue of funding. It can be assumed that the VF-19 would be more expensive to produce than the VF-11. And in a time of comparative peace, I can't imagine the UN military to being able to secure enough funding to replace the thousands or tens of thousands of VF-11s in service all at once.

I would imagine that the VF-19 would go into initial low rate productionby around 2043 or 2044 and the first units would probably go to special forces squadrons or units actively engaged in combat.

Even though the Macross 7 fleet obviously had the blueprints and tooling to produce the VF-19, it was probably felt by the command staff, including Captain Max there was no hurry to do so. As far as we know, prior to encountering the Varuta in 2045, the Macross 7 fleet had been travelling peacefully though space for 7 years without encountering any major threat. And why waste valuable and finite resources in replacing all the hundreds of VF-11C fighters if there is no threat.

Graham

[Graham]

Considering the Zolan Patrol already had a full compliment of VF-3000's, why not send them a VF-19P as well.

VF-5000, not VF-3000.

Graham

[Keith]

Considering the Zolan Patrol already had a full compliment of VF-3000's, why not send them a VF-19P as well.

VF-5000, not VF-3000.

Graham

D'oh!

[Gerwalker]

And how this poachers get their hands on VFs??? It is like nowadays smugglers or drug dealers were armed with F-18s, F-16s and the like!! (I know, it is an anime...)

(BTW: in the 80s there was word that Colombian drug dealers were trying to buy Harriers to protect their plantations from DEA scout planes...go figure!!)

[Druna Skass]

Another thing to add to those points Graham brought up, if flying the VF-19 was anything like the YF-19 then it would take a little longer to train pilots for it than for the VF-11, since the 19 is not an easy plane to fly. Yang mentioned about two test pilots being put out of service and one dead because of the 19.

[Nied]

This is something that gets discussed on these forums from time to time and back in the late 1990s, I wrote an essay (which is still floating around the internet somewhere) on the various differences of the VF-19 variants.

Anyway, my theory as to why the Macross 7 fleet only had a limited number of VF-19F/S fighters is as follows: -

Although the decision was made in 2041 to adopt the VF-19 as the next main variable fighter to replace the VF-11, that does not mean that the VF-19 would immediately enter service the same year. In fact it would probably be several years before the first operational VF-19 squadron becomes active.

Consider that it takes time to manufacture tooling, set up production facilities get the production line rolling, train instructor pilots and maintenance personal etc etc.

And of course there is the issue of funding. It can be assumed that the VF-19 would be more expensive to produce than the VF-11. And in a time of comparative peace, I can't imagine the UN military to being able to secure enough funding to replace the thousands or tens of thousands of VF-11s in service all at once. 

I would imagine that the VF-19 would go into initial low rate productionby around 2043 or 2044 and the first units would probably go to special forces squadrons or units actively engaged in combat.

Even though the Macross 7 fleet obviously had the blueprints and tooling to produce the VF-19, it was probably felt by the command staff, including Captain Max there was no hurry to do so. As far as we know, prior to encountering the Varuta in 2045, the Macross 7 fleet had been travelling peacefully though space for 7 years without encountering any major threat. And why waste valuable and finite resources in replacing all the hundreds of VF-11C fighters if there is no threat.

Graham

I would do you one better Graham and say that the VF-19 was never intended to completely replace the VF-11, at least with the Spacy. The VF-19 seems uniquely suited for trans-atmospheric operations, while earlier VFs are either stuck in an atmosphere, or stuck in space (while equiped with FAST packs at least). The '19 would be perfect for the UNS Air Force (the Compendium lists the UNAF as the primary customer for the Excalibur), where it could deploy from terestrial airstrips directly into space without the need for expensive booster rockets, and it would have the effectiveness of a FAST pack equiped VF-11 once it got there. In this case the UNSAF and Spacy units likely to see lots of trans atmospheric combat would be the most likely to receive the Excalibur, while units based in deep space (like the M7 fleet and most other colony fleets for that matter) could easily make do with cheaper VF-11s with upgraded FAST packs.

Edited August 18, 2004 by Nied

[Boxer]

BTW, rogue Zentradi fleets don't have the means of backwards engineering technology, so that's not even remotely an issue. Pirates are going to steal whatever they're going to steal (including fold boosters & reaction weapons), so that also isn't an issue.

What about the Phyos? I see, that was stolen from the UN Spacy too eh?

I lost my post last night that went to ask why the VF-19P was a production version. I think I reasoned that the changes to the design were necissary to keep classfiied information out of the commercial market where it would be all to see.

[platypiman247]

Before I make a fool of myself using a bad example, does anyone know if the U.S. Air Force plans on replacing most or all of it's F-15 with the new F-22?

[azrael]

Well, technically the VF-19F would be the "J" type of the -19s.

Not really. The "F" is more of a cannon fodder. The "J-type" looks consolidated into the "S-type". The "A" variant is closer to "1st production model".

Graham's little easy on the VF-19 series is a pretty logical answer to the variants. (Hey, it's still there)

I would also agree with Graham concerning the 19's rollout.

...Air Force plans on replacing most or all of it's F-15 with the new F-22?

They can't. F/A-22s cost too much to justify replacing all at once. Eventually, yes the F-15 will be completely replaced by the F/A-22, but that can't happen considering the costs (not to mention if you find a fatal flaw in one, that flaw may be in others leading to some serious downtime for the entire fleet of F/A-22s). The same could be applied to the VF-19's situation. They can produce a limited number but there is no way they can replace the entire line of VF-11s in 1 shot.

What about the Phyos? I see, that was stolen from the UN Spacy too eh?

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/zentrad...vice/index.html

The Pheyos (or Enemy/EVA) Valkyrie is not a UN fighter. It was made with stolen parts but it is not a UN fighter.

Edited August 19, 2004 by azrael

[Boxer]

FYI Azrael I was being sarcastic.

Obvioulsy the Phyos is a Zentreadi designed variable fighter based on the existing VF-11 prototype. If the Zentreadi can reverse-engineer a VF-11's transformation capabilities to make a terrifying fighter craft, what's stopping them from reverse-engieering a VF-19P and making something dangerous to even -19s and -22s?

[Graham]

I would do you one better Graham and say that the VF-19 was never intended to completely replace the VF-11, at least with the Spacy. The VF-19 seems uniquely suited for trans-atmospheric operations, while earlier VFs are either stuck in an atmosphere, or stuck in space (while equiped with FAST packs at least). The '19 would be perfect for the UNS Air Force (the Compendium lists the UNAF as the primary customer for the Excalibur), where it could deploy from terestrial airstrips directly into space without the need for expensive booster rockets, and it would have the effectiveness of a FAST pack equiped VF-11 once it got there. In this case the UNSAF and Spacy units likely to see lots of trans atmospheric combat would be the most likely to receive the Excalibur, while units based in deep space (like the M7 fleet and most other colony fleets for that matter) could easily make do with cheaper VF-11s with upgraded FAST packs.

I've always thought that the first production model, the VF-19A, which is almost identical to the prototype YF-19, except for having more powerful engines was primarily designed to be optimised for atmospheric combat as the design seems to emphasise atmospheric control surfaces rather than a large number of verniers.

Whereas the VF-19F/S which have fewer and smaller atmospheric control surfaces (smaller wings, no canards, no lower leg fins), but a greater number of verniers, are optimised for space combat.

Of course all variants of the VF-19 are capable of flying and fighting in both space and atmosphere but some are optimised for one space and some for atmsophere.

If you think about it, this sort of makes sense. I mean a colony fleet like Macross 7 spends 99.99% of it's time in space until it finds a suitable planet to colonise, which could take years or even decades, so it makes sense to have the fighter force optimised for space combat.

Graham

[Gideon Krieg]

Well thank you all for answering what the VF-19P is.

BTW, what does it look like? The sparse info I have lists it as a variation of the VF-19 custom.

Anybody know where I can find some decent pics of this fighter?

[Graham]

Well thank you all for answering what the VF-19P is. 

BTW, what does it look like?  The sparse info I have lists it as a variation of the VF-19 custom. 

Anybody know where I can find some decent pics of this fighter? 

Pictures of the VF-19P can be found on the bottom of pages 124 & 125 of the Macross Design Works book, if you have that book.

Black and white line art pictures can also be found in the Dynamite 7 page of the Macross Mecha section at MAHQ.

Graham

[Gideon Krieg]

Thank you Graham! Found those pics at both places.

While on the subject of the Macross design works book. I think that book is the only place I have ever seen a pic of the VF-1 Ostrich in battroid mode. Not to mention the VT-1C which I believe makes an appearence in Dynamite 7 if I am not mistaken (never seen Dynamite, but have been told about it!).

BTW, was the concept booster system pictured on page 94 of the Macross Design works book ever used for the VF-19 Excaliber? It has a "94.3" bubble next to it. I ask because it looks "kick ass" . There is another concept pic of it on the next page with a "94.3" bubble next to it, this is a battroid pic.

Anyway, thanks again Graham.

[azrael]

BTW, was the concept booster system pictured on page 94 of the Macross Design works book ever used for the VF-19 Excaliber? It has a "94.3" bubble next to it. I ask because it looks "kick ass" . There is another concept pic of it on the next page with a "94.3" bubble next to it, this is a battroid pic.

Nope. Conceptually, it could have lead to many other things though.

[Keith]

Am I the only one who wished yamato did a VF-19P whaleblood varient?...

[Graham]

Am I the only one who wished yamato did a VF-19P whaleblood varient?...

I'd like a VF-19P toy, but sans whale blood please.

I think the VF-19P looks great white.

Perhaps a whale blood version, could be a limited edition release.

Graham

[Gideon Krieg]

Am I the only one who wished yamato did a VF-19P whaleblood varient?...

They didn't? What the hell were they thinking? After checking out the pics of this fighter, that is very disappointing Keith. Perhaps Ban Dai did a model version. Does anyone know if they did or not?

I am a fan of models, Yamatos and other super-poseables are nice but a bit expensive. I have a few Gundams of that ilk, a RX-178 1/70th (I think ), and two Zaku-2s (green and red/char type). Many models, mostly Space Battleship Yamato and Space Pirate Captain Herlock.

Anyhoo.....the VF-19P is most certainly a sweet fighter. Kawamori never disappoints his fans with his designs, that is for sure.

[Graham]

They didn't? What the hell were they thinking? After checking out the pics of this fighter, that is very disappointing Keith. Perhaps Ban Dai did a model version. Does anyone know if they did or not?

There has been nearly nothing in the way of VF-19P merchandise unfortunately. No toys and no plastic models.

I did see a painted VF-19P battroid mode resin garage kit either in a magazine or in a website once, but I can't recall the scale, who made it or where I saw it

Graham

[Keith]

After seeing AM2's take on the Macross franchise, I hope they'll do a sequel with the more contemporary designs (like VFX-2 with a beefed up AM2 engine). The VF-19P would fit perfectly there.

[Graham]

Quick search just turned up these: -

VF-19P Battroid & Fighter: Scroll down to below the YF-19. These VF-19P look like conversions of the Bandai 1/144 scale VF-19 Kai plastic model kit.

Same kits I think but from a different page. See here, here & here.

Graham

[Graham]

After seeing AM2's take on the Macross franchise, I hope they'll do a sequel with the more contemporary designs (like VFX-2 with a beefed up AM2 engine). The VF-19P would fit perfectly there.

Well, hopefully now that the Macross Zero OVA is drawing to a close, a SEGA/AM2 Macross Zero PS2 game will be announced soon.

I'm sure most of us regulars remember that one of the old promo movies for the original Macross PS2 game did show the VF-0S, SV-51, YF-19 & YF-21, but no announcement was ever made as to why they were pulled from the finished game.

I seem to recall that Egan even had the Zero & Plusm mecha listed on the Compendium's entry for the PS2 game for a while, but he later removed them. I've tried asking Egan what the reason was for the Plus & Zero mecha not being in the game, but he either didn't know or wouldn't tell me.

Anyway I agree that a SEGA/AM2 Macross PS2 game set in the 2050s (VF-X3?) would be excellent.

Graham

[Keith]

Don't think I like the proportions on that kit, or maybe it's just the paint that's making it look off (way too plasticy looking a paint). Or maybe I just prefer the whaleblood coloring

Edited August 19, 2004 by Keith

[Macross_Fanboy]

With a few mods to the head of a 1/144 VF-19Kai you can make a VF-19P. Hmm...

[azrael]

Am I the only one who wished yamato did a VF-19P whaleblood varient?...

Well...you could do the whaleblood-part of the VF-19P....but that would require red paint...or ketchup.