Death

[platypiman247]

At the end of the first episode, when Hikaru crash lands and converts to Battloid mode, he fries a postman as his foot flies through a building(I'm not joking, watch the scene frame by frame, if you have the DVD). So haunting was this nameless postman's death that I could not sleep for three days.

I also mourn the death of every non-Monster destroid pilot, since their lives seemed so pointless. I mean, at least they sometimes showed CF-1's blowing stuff up. You pretty much only got to see Destroids getting mowed down.

[Renato]

At the end of the first episode, when Hikaru crash lands and converts to Battloid mode, he fries a postman as his foot flies through a building(I'm not joking, watch the scene frame by frame, if you have the DVD). So haunting was this nameless postman's death that I could not sleep for three days.

That wasn't a postman, that was Kawamori himself.

[platypiman247]

That wasn't a postman, that was Kawamori himself.

Really? Wow, talk about an easter egg. However that only bolsters my point since that would mean that the saddest death in Macross would be that of it's creator. Very deep.

[RosarioLuv]

Botoru Pilot getting shot point-blank in the face by Milia's Fist guns, then used as a human (zentradi) body shield, thrown aside, cut in half, and then stepped on his head crushed like a melon. (actually happened to several at once, so I don't know which ones died in which of one or more manners combined. Either way grotesque.

DYRL Max ripping zentradi out of glaug and firing point-blank into his helmet which cracks open and his face explodes as it depressurizes in the vaccum of space (and his eyeballs pop out as he screams)

DYRL civilian decapitation during Macross transformation

TV series Misa watches CF pilot get blown out of the cockpit and suffocate in the vaccum of space.

TV series catseye pilot gets crushed to death from crashing into asteroid debris

TV series CF pilot gets shot point blank in face by glaug

WORST EVER (for me to watch): TV series little girl and daddy soldier get blown away during zentradi blitzkrieg.

Edited August 16, 2004 by redemption

[platypiman247]

WORST EVER (for me to watch): TV series little girl and daddy soldier get blown away during zentradi blitzkrieg.

I would have to agree that while it might not be the saddest death (or in this case, millions of deaths) in the series, the the incineration of earth's population in the TV series is definately the most shocking.

[Druna Skass]

I know we don't see him die, but that scene with the Zentran skeleton still in his battle armor holding the Minmay doll burned itself into the back of my mind.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Roy's death in the tv series was pretty shocking and had the most impact on me especially how no one could have expected it. From then on you as an audience member kind of wonder how Rick was going to cope by himself with all that sudden responsibility. It would have been good if they had a Roy funeral episode.

And to think, Hikaru's close friend marries the person who killed him. hah If only roy practiced in the video arcade he might have lived. (I wonder if they used those arcade games as simulators?)

Kakizaki's death on the other hand wasn't shocking at all or even unpredictable (but still sad) because he was always getting shot in the back or needing help. The main story could have continued along as usual if he dies because he wasn't a major pivotal character.

The civilian deaths back on earth were some of the saddest though. It wasn't just mass death, but the end of the world. But when you think about it, they all died in a pretty humane way - just blasted from above and instant death by the zentreadi. No prisoners, torture or enslavment as you might have got if there was a world war against other humans.

If the warlike humans had just given them back thier ship maybe the world would have been a better place since all the technology being used was just for making more powerful and deadly weapons? It's not as if the humans stood a chance against the 5 million ships or anything.. the humans would just repeat the same mistakes the aliens made and end up wiping out (and destroying, then substituing for thier own) whole cultures by military force for a one world order. (microcosm being mirror of the macrocosm as theosophists believe. With the idea that the heaven and earth are similar or linked?

Sorry to get all magickal and what not, but I was just watching macross zero for the first time the other day (brillant dogfight scenes!) and I'm starting to think these elements tie in closely to why Anti UN forces would fear the dictatorial rule by a single power and feel the need to stop the UN, rather than just being your usual "evil bad people". The UN could be seen as the human equivalent of the Zentreadi while the Anti-UN = the human equivalent of the protoculture trying to protecting existing cultures. I could go into a detailed explanation but just go to the scene where the religious chic talks about there once being "several different names for several different plants" and how, now that humans have unified together we all just refer to them in a generic category for mass use through agreed-upon scientific terms that don't pay attention to the heritage of that unique culture's mythical reference of the plants.

To those still paying atention: It's the "death of culture" theme all over again, with the UN being the cause of it, where all the villagers have left thier homes to go to the big bad evil cities just because its a more convenient comfortable lifestyle, instead of say, carrying on with the plan thier god had in store for them, and, like the zentreadi; forgetting thier own "proto"culture and origins. All this, as younger, bolder, and braver generations of the villagers grow up ignorant of thier own past and all too ready and eager to except someone else's culture (even helping to fight thier wars) just to blend in, almost ashamed to admit whatever uniqueness they possessed as having any use in the new world.

If their 'end of the world' prophecy is coming true it will be the *begining* of a new culture (the "birth" of new man, similar to how the first human was born through a mixture of fish and bird) making contact with another culture, but the *destruction* and end (death) of thier old culture as more villagers leave thier past behind. (ie the loss of fish fins for human legs to adapt to new environments, as symbolically told in the legends/creation myth/evolutionary theory.) The bird human I'm guessing then, refers to the mythical "phoenix" which dies and is reborn from ashes. We actually see the whole forest being bombed by the anti-un's attempt to kill the UN soldiers at the end of ep4 which could mean new types of insects animals will be created from the ones that died similar to how those fireflies were trying to immediately repair and recreate after the death of other living organisms to compensate from an earlier destructive incident. If you couple that with the girl's blood links being similar to the ancient organism we are being led to believe they might try to clone the creature, use the purple-haired girl's blood to give the creature life, and then finally combine this with the singing effect (the breath of life?) of that religious chics voice to awaken a once dead monster. (remember what happens when she sings? things start floating, blood sample goes crazy, flowers start to grow etc.. just some ideas)

Edited August 17, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Druna Skass]

Hmm interesting...

As far as the Anti-UN goes, I see them more as symbol on how people can never get a long. Even in the face of a possible alien invastion, humanity can't even put up a united front. And from there it goes into power and greed. The Anti-UN is most likely backed by people who stand to lose a lot of power if the world was ever under a solid UN leadership, and those people won't cede their power even if it meant a united and hence stronger front against an alien assault.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm thinking that the death is always inevitable as foretold in the prophecies, and that whether they are anti-un or un, it doesn't matter as it is in man's nature to kill others so new ones can be made. Sounds harsh but that is the whole birth, death, rebirth cycle of the phoenix. In order for it to arise it has to first be destroyed and that corrupt old scientist dude is the key to making that monster come alive.

He used the necklace to bribe the religious chic into breaking the rule of giving her blood as a way to bring destruction to the world I'm thinking. Knowing full well that by fullfilling the prophecy he could see within his own lifetime whether the myths were actually true but having tempted fate all hell will break loose. The UN soldiers that raped that messed up crazed chic only shows the corruption in man on either side, so they are both greedy to get thier hands on more advanced tech to tip the scales, but in the middle are all the blood of the innocent because they both go about it through violent militaristic means. (This is similar to the two sides in the protoculture republic which split up and eventually wiped out thier race after they fiddled with experiments into trying to create the ultimate soldier which didn't need technology to survive.) It's all very X-files but I think I'm starting to like M Zero's need to put human religion and myth into the mix.

The bottom line is that the needless death is just a step to a new life (like in relgions where there is a heaven or after life waiting for you after you die.) in a constant cycle that repeats in order that people adjust to changes. Similar to the fighting style used by valkyries (example is when Roy is instructing Shin on using the Variable fighters effectively by changing to each unique situation) or in martial arts. (example: Bruce Lee philosophy. Also, the incident where shin learns to "swim" underwater both as a human and later in battroid form to adapt to new environments, it is parrallell with the creatures in nature which live in harmony with thier environments and change to survive in them, like the flying fish.) By being adaptable, it will ensure survival of the species.

That chic obviously has the power to ressurect creatures that died by using her singing. The scientist (Roy's love interest) I think will record her singing, play it back and try to ressurect and awaken the dead birdman monster thingy and given that the monster might have superdimensional powers (time travel?) it could bring her villages to another word by space folding as a way to protect her people from what's about to come (the coming zentreadi arrival etc) and act as a star gate to thier heaven. I personally doubt people that can make rocks float are around anymore by the time of macross tv, otherwise the military would try to harness them for evil purposes and use them.

I like to think of the singing as a magic spell that can be used to kill or give life. Either it can be used as a song of destruction or a life-giving song. The song of destruction would be too dangerous if used as a weapon and in the wrong hands. But it will be necessary to "change" or cleanse the growing evil from the destructive war on earth possibly almost bringing on the end of the world. Here's an interesting article on the effect different sounds have on people and the environment. The floating rocks could be explained away from the magic created from that girls singing which affects the enviornment in a unique way, but in an exaggerated form.)

Edited August 17, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Basara]

Let's not forget the captain of Diamond Squad while he was in a VF-11 Battle Armour... for those who have actually seen Macross 7, that is... He actually gets up from the hospital bed to fly off to certain doom...

The real prize, has to go to Kakizaki in DYRL... I mean one moment, he's kidding about on the radio, and next, he's static...

[Wabbit]

Let's not forget the captain of Diamond Squad while he was in a VF-11 Battle Armour... for those who have actually seen Macross 7, that is... He actually gets up from the hospital bed to fly off to certain doom...

The real prize, has to go to Kakizaki in DYRL... I mean one moment, he's kidding about on the radio, and next, he's static...

Well, Cpt. Kinryu chose to die with honour after he realized that the Varauta were targeting their big guns on Battle and City 7, he sacrificed himself to save the many. That's not 'sad', it's a hero's death.

[Basara]

A hero's death can also be sad. It certainly was sniff worthy at moments, with the VF-11 straining against the innards of the capital ship...

Now if someone had said pathetic and f-ucked up... Then that's a whole different story.

Kakizaki's story...

[connor99]

My vote would have to go to Lynn Kaifun's death............oh, wait! That's right, he never died in MACROSS! But should have though, lil prick! And I wish it was HIKARU who put him out of his misery, like maybe unloading his VALK's gunpod on Kaifun's ass!

[Macross_Fanboy]

Pyshica's death in the 17th episode of Macross 7. That was sad since he had a family and was concerned about their safety when City 7 was separated from the main colony fleet. And the fact that his death is in slow-mo so you see he pained face after his death cry.

[striderhiryu]

i think the most f*cked up death was the one with the UN soldiers aboard Asuka II when Ivanov´s SV-51 opened fire on them. nothing was left to their funerals.

[Macross_Fanboy]

i think the most f*cked up death was the one with the UN soldiers aboard Asuka II when Ivanov´s SV-51 opened fire on them. nothing was left to their funerals.

Hey, maybe old man Raizou Nakajima was amoung the hangar crew to get blasted. This death right here of a poor VF-0 pilot was pretty cool since it was DD that got him.

[striderhiryu]

forgot that kill of episode 2.

i just watched the part where ivanovs kills the soldiers.

there were seven soldier, six were killed and the one in the middle barely survived.

he could been raizou nakajima but wondered if after surviving that attack he could get out in time before fockers counter attack when he trows ivanov out of the asuka II

[RichterX]

i think the most f*cked up death was the one with the UN soldiers aboard Asuka II when Ivanov´s SV-51 opened fire on them. nothing was left to their funerals.

Hey, maybe old man Raizou Nakajima was amoung the hangar crew to get blasted. This death right here of a poor VF-0 pilot was pretty cool since it was DD that got him.

Poor Delta-3, I think that was his designation...

Any, I am the only one that thinks that Roy's death in the serie was simply stupid, it was good they gave him a better death in DYRL, well not better but with more style... at least it was honorable in the movie.

[Macross_Fanboy]

i think the most f*cked up death was the one with the UN soldiers aboard Asuka II when Ivanov´s SV-51 opened fire on them. nothing was left to their funerals.

Hey, maybe old man Raizou Nakajima was amoung the hangar crew to get blasted. This death right here of a poor VF-0 pilot was pretty cool since it was DD that got him.

Poor Delta-3, I think that was his designation...

Any, I am the only one that thinks that Roy's death in the serie was simply stupid, it was good they gave him a better death in DYRL, well not better but with more style... at least it was honorable in the movie.

Yeah, he's Delta 3. And I think Roy's death in the series was pretty stupid too. How does a bystander NOT notice somebody bleeding heavily out of his back?

[sharky]

Don't forget Ben's death in DYRL. Poor bastard never saw it coming, and didn't even get a shot off. Those kinds of deaths always get to me because you at least want to see them get a fighting chance.

[Wabbit]

Don't forget Ben's death in DYRL. Poor bastard never saw it coming, and didn't even get a shot off. Those kinds of deaths always get to me because you at least want to see them get a fighting chance.

Who's Ben? Oh, you mean Hayao!

Yeah, that was sad too, but if you watched the tv-shows, you saw it coming that one day, he'll get iced by an enemy ace with one shot.

He was too care free, wasn't a really good pilot to begin with because he always got in trouble and had his Skull Squadron mates save his butt every time.

[sharky]

Yeah, sorry I always forget their Macross(real) names, so I fall back on their Robocrap names. I just recently have started to become interested again after taking a break for a few years. It's gonna take me awhile to remember everything. At least now I can pull out my DVD collection and watch them all over again with a fresher perspective.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Kakizaki's death in DYRL?= FUNNY!

Kakizaki's death in the TV Series= sad

[1st Border Red Devil]

The Anti-UN is most likely backed by people who stand to lose a lot of power if the world was ever under a solid UN leadership, and those people won't cede their power even if it meant a united and hence stronger front against an alien assault.

Just to play the Devil's advocate for a moment.....

Are you so certain that people who would support the Anti-UN are basically greedy and/or power hungry? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate gripe with the centralization of power under a group that, as many of us know in RL, is full of morons and thugs? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate worry that the UN created the ASS-1 as a hoax in order to run roughshod over people? Couldnt it be that there are people who are legitemately afraid of being on the recieving end of 'justice' by groups within the UN because of past grievances?

If all the Anti-UN are painted as insane, criminal or power-mad thugs...that is just as dumb as the portrayal of the Anti-Unification League and Army of the Southern Cross in the Robotech novels (and newer comics...no thanks to that no-talent hack of a writer Jay Faerber). Its taking an overly simplistic and, in some cases, stupid view of how life works. Having the heads of the Anti-UN be some Snidely Whiplash-esque villains who twirl their mustachios and laugh maniacally would be a mistake of the first order.

[kanedaestes]

kakazaki from dyrl without a doubt, right in the head, and of course guld boa bowman, even though you see it coming in the movie edition it still brings a tear in your eye for his moment of redemption, like bowemier (i think that is how it is spelled) in LOTR, The Fellowship, his moment of redemption was a tear jerker because he would not just die, he fought until the very end

Edited September 15, 2004 by kanedaestes

[Final Vegeta]

From a non US point of view, US is filled with black and white movies which are no representative of reality. I don't think Japanese people ever had such manicheic view.

By the way, Kawamori made a big error: Israel is US best ally. It would never side with Russia

FV

[Jemstone]

kakazaki from dyrl without a doubt, right in the head, and of course guld boa bowman, even though you see it coming in the movie edition it still brings a tear in your eye for his moment of redemption, like bowemier (i think that is how it is spelled) in LOTR, The Fellowship, his moment of redemption was a tear jerker because he would not just die, he fought until the very end

Boromir?

[kanedaestes]

yeah him, sean bean aka 006 from goledneye, hey you ever notice he take a lot of roles where he is a traitor?

[1st Border Red Devil]

Well...not to sidetrack...but Boromir was not a traitor. He simply fell under the sway of the Ring because of his nature. The reason Dunedain like Aragorn and Faramir didnt fall under its sway was they were the exceptions in many cases...not the rule. Even Sam came close to submitting to the Ring when he bore it for Frodo.

[kanedaestes]

yeah i know, it just seems odd that he seem to be in those types of roles, i mean he died in the beginning of equilibrium, and you thought he was a traitor, until the end of the movie where it is shown that he was actually a good guy

[Renato]

The Anti-UN is most likely backed by people who stand to lose a lot of power if the world was ever under a solid UN leadership, and those people won't cede their power even if it meant a united and hence stronger front against an alien assault.

Just to play the Devil's advocate for a moment.....

Are you so certain that people who would support the Anti-UN are basically greedy and/or power hungry? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate gripe with the centralization of power under a group that, as many of us know in RL, is full of morons and thugs? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate worry that the UN created the ASS-1 as a hoax in order to run roughshod over people? Couldnt it be that there are people who are legitemately afraid of being on the recieving end of 'justice' by groups within the UN because of past grievances?

If all the Anti-UN are painted as insane, criminal or power-mad thugs...that is just as dumb as the portrayal of the Anti-Unification League and Army of the Southern Cross in the Robotech novels (and newer comics...no thanks to that no-talent hack of a writer Jay Faerber). Its taking an overly simplistic and, in some cases, stupid view of how life works. Having the heads of the Anti-UN be some Snidely Whiplash-esque villains who twirl their mustachios and laugh maniacally would be a mistake of the first order.

Agreed. I wish they got into a bit more detail like that in MZero. I still see the Anti-UN portrayed like these really evil bad guys.

Even the original show didn't fall shy of showing the dark side of UN Spacy, such as Misa's father's blind faith in the Grand Cannon, to annihilate a great portion of the aliens BEFORE commencing peace talks, and of course the banishment of SDF-1 and its citizens from Earth.

I like a show where it's not so easy to tell who the bad guys are, it's a little more realistic.

[Macross_Fanboy]

The Anti-UN is most likely backed by people who stand to lose a lot of power if the world was ever under a solid UN leadership, and those people won't cede their power even if it meant a united and hence stronger front against an alien assault.

Just to play the Devil's advocate for a moment.....

Are you so certain that people who would support the Anti-UN are basically greedy and/or power hungry? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate gripe with the centralization of power under a group that, as many of us know in RL, is full of morons and thugs? Wouldnt there be people that would have a legitemate worry that the UN created the ASS-1 as a hoax in order to run roughshod over people? Couldnt it be that there are people who are legitemately afraid of being on the recieving end of 'justice' by groups within the UN because of past grievances?

If all the Anti-UN are painted as insane, criminal or power-mad thugs...that is just as dumb as the portrayal of the Anti-Unification League and Army of the Southern Cross in the Robotech novels (and newer comics...no thanks to that no-talent hack of a writer Jay Faerber). Its taking an overly simplistic and, in some cases, stupid view of how life works. Having the heads of the Anti-UN be some Snidely Whiplash-esque villains who twirl their mustachios and laugh maniacally would be a mistake of the first order.

Agreed. I wish they got into a bit more detail like that in MZero. I still see the Anti-UN portrayed like these really evil bad guys.

Even the original show didn't fall shy of showing the dark side of UN Spacy, such as Misa's father's blind faith in the Grand Cannon, to annihilate a great portion of the aliens BEFORE commencing peace talks, and of course the banishment of SDF-1 and its citizens from Earth.

I like a show where it's not so easy to tell who the bad guys are, it's a little more realistic.

Yeah, one reason I like Gundam SEED so much, screw the action, it's not that great anyways, it's all about the drama! Oh the humanity!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I always just imagine the anti-un as just being anyone who doesn't want to give up thier land, sovereignty, and soul to the central goverment. If you own a large piece of property (years of hard work to get that) and some politician redistributed that to somebody else, (stole your work) because they assumed control of absolutely everything as the world goverment, I would be mighty pissed.

Of course to the UN it would be "humanitarian" to steal what wealth you attained and redistribute it to others (the have-nots) but not without a fight from you! Just as much as people will try to stop immigrant workers stealing local workers jobs because they can't compete, so too will people; who have something to lose (with the establishment of a new world order), try and fight against a world goverment that reorganises things to how they see fit.. just so someone in power wants to increase efficiency in how things are done for the global cause, regardless of who loses out.

I don't think its about power so much as principle. As an individual, why on earth would anyone willingly give up thier freedom of choice?

It's like giving a person a choice of 10 unique flavours to taste (the world is much more interesting when split up, because of variety) and then suddenly taking that choice away and saying "this is how things wil be done, you will give up any rights you once had to a handful of powerful men who probably want to control your life to suit thier own personal agendas". All your tax is going towards a globalist agenda involving total militarisation of society whether you want one or not. (this after having just fought a global war, you would think the worlds population would be sick and tired of wanting to spend and waste more money on war)

True there are going to be honest people genuinely wanting world peace, but the opportunity (by the world's military) to grab what power and knowledge they could from the alien ship would be the primary motivating factor, (the greed) and not as idealistic people believ: to geniunely bring about an end to wars. (there is too much to gain through waging war if you are the more powerful nation - think of it like a game of starcraft )

Ok so an alien ship crashed and there was a geniune threat to the survival of humans but that doesn't mean we all have to bloody like it. Without some kind of balances and checks and accountability, people become suspicious of that much centralised power being turned against them. I doubt anyone buys the idea that politicians have the average joe's interests at heart and will not lie just to get voted into power. There is just no way you can make everyone agree with each other without using force to get them in line.

Now given that world goverment leaders would most likely control the whole military and have no reason to listen to the people based soley on the idea that they control the world, who will fight for your individual rights if you happen to disagree with what the central goverment says you must do? (obviously there will be no alternative since its a global goverment It's not like you can move to another country since it's all controlled by the same goverment.)

Now in macross the protoculture may have prepared for the possbility that thier govemment may turn into a dictatorship with the development of super zentreadi (just my opinion not saying this is fact) to watch the military in case something like this happens and in case there is "no escape" from enslavement by corruption in the system, but... as like what happens in many science experiments in science fiction stories, something goes wrong with the project and all hell breaks loose as the experiment goes out of control. The secret weapon backfires.

This is what I think the Anti-UN is.. just a bunch of people (like a few people in the protoculture who didn't trust the way the goverment was going and the decisions they were making, fearful they would use the military against dissidents) who have lost a lot of what they thought thier independance gave them (ie much better lifestyle in thier view) and now vainly trying to claw back what they've lost by fighting a world empire. Sort of like the rebel fighters in star wars who seem like a ragtag bunch of idealists in the backdrop of an empire's total rule. With rogue characters like Han Solo seeming to the empire like petty trouble makers, who really wouldn't register in any importance or threat; and really hated by the ordinary person who just wish they'd stop resisting.

Like the rebal fighters in star wars, I'm thinking the Anti-UN are sort of disorganised, but afraid enough that if they all don't band together to fight the UN (despite not all members agreeing with each other on every issue) they will forever be the slaves to these people making all the decisions for them and ordering them about. Without thier independance they lose everything (national pride mainly) so they fight to bring about as much chaos and anarchy as they can to upset the UN's effort to maintain a tight grip on thier control of everything.

There would probably be 1001 reasons to not like the UN but just based on the idea that no one can agree 100% with each other on how things should be run and who should control what, is enough of a reason for the need for an anti-un. Because the Protoculture developed weapons that were too powerful, based on the idea of one side not trusting the other, they ended up destroying themselves because of limiting themselves (thier whole race?) to being controlled by a central goverment instead of spreading thier race as far apart as posible to ensure they could increase thier chance of survival. (only a few people with foresite must have decided to make some effort to genetically alter humans in secret)

Based on distrust, a central goverment (with 2 opposing sides) would eventually split apart with the secret intention of either side to fight to the death to eliminate all those who oppose their views, resulting in eventual war. It was only a matter of time before they had decided to reunite JUST so they could deal with the Evil series, but never really wanting to join willingly through genuine heart-felt feelings of love for each other.

And just like the protoculture, the human's global goverment on earth with the different sides (formation of UN) would find a need to unite to deal with the Zentreadi threat, (just as protoculture needed to unite against the evil series threat) with many people on either side secretly unwilling to trust whatever enemies they made during the global war that was on earth, so suddenly. After all, you can't really expect worst enemies, to become best friends overnight, so what you have is this "united front to combat aliens" but underneath, you still have many people who lost lives to thier sworn enemies from the global war who still harbour that hate, wanting to bring the world back to the way it was, and also not trusting a global order because it would be like helping the enemy. I can see Anti-UN as being many things to many people but mainly as a last resort to prevent world domination by leaders the people feel they can't trust to listen to them.

Edited September 17, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Macross_Fanboy]

I just think that the Anti-UN is made up of dissedents filled with all sorts of scum of the Earth.

[RedLion]

It had to be G. Boman in Macross plus the movie version. Ouch!! he is still floating in space!