just saw macross 2

[Keith]

When you consider the stale level of developement shown in Macross II, definately. You also have to consider how Macross II ignores any & all forms of continuity which came before it.

Considering that the stagnation and complacency of the UN Spacy was an important point of the first episode, I'd wager it was completely deliberate, and it makes plenty of sense given the way M2 had chosen to portray post original/DYRL.

Until you start to wonder, what the hell happened to the evolution in design with the VF-4? Why remodel the Macross to use inhabited portions of the ship for the cannon? Then why make it break when fired "once."

When you factor in how this same basic team entirely missed the boat when making Orguss 02 & Gundam 0080 (as many fans as it has, it doesn't even remotely carry the flavor or style of Tomino's Gundam), then it's a loose argument you're making.

[Radd]

I have to agree with Keith 100% on this one. Flashback 2012 came out years before Macross II, but went completely ignored. The Marduk have absolutely no relation to anything put forth in both SDF Macross or DYRL?, while the Protodevlin and Varuta forces follow up with and expand upon the already introduced Supervision Army. Macross II blatantly rehashes DYRL?, which is one of my personal gripes with the worst aspects of Gundam, and I sincerely have to disagree with the statement that "Thematically Macross, Plus, 7, and Zero have about 0% in common", and cannot comprehend how anyone who has seen these shows can even come to this conclusion. I'm not going to tell you these sequels were better than II or that you should like them, but they do follow the themes and expand on the plots of each other, SDF, and DYRL? far more than II does, even if you feel it is in ways you do not like.

[kanata67]

I just saw macross two on starz action channel on the digital cable we have out at our new House. As I have always been more into the toys [jetfire ] than plot subtleties I let most of the romanticism I hold for macross/r-word come from what I remember as a child. We all know DYRL had a plot, R-word had a story line... but what the heck is this? I remember "istar" from mac plus vol1&2 [all I saw as it was a rental at a gaming store]. Is macross II the complete story of mac plus??? I know I saw for the first time, much to my dismay, the first animated representations of a few valks I have come to love.

  My question is thus... Is this really the only appearence of these cool valks? Did the 2ss and 19 appear nowhear else animated? Is the only good that came from this the toys? Are some of my coolest toys based on something seen for such a brief ammount of time on a show so lame....?

AND NO.... I AM NOT A NEWBY!!!!! Just some-one who saw this travisty for the first time... makes me question the wisdom of 30+ 1/55's in a closet is all

Yes, you are a newbie.. 30+ mechs in the closet doesn't mean you got knowledge.

Getting confused of Mac+ with M2 is the the biggest sign that you are a big newbie.

Just cause my head is up my ass doesn't mean I'm a newbie

ok... I guess I am a newbie... Just 'cause I know all the 1/55 varients out there and know the history of who had the molds doesn't make up for the fact that I saw volume 1 [the first two episodes of mac plus] just over a decade ago and l confused it with macII, indicates I am lacking in certai macross fanboy aspects. Limiting/appending my original qustion to what is actually in macII as opposed to my hippie compilation of the two...

my first encounter with the 19a was with a psx game... guess which yammie version I have I can say I probably had that mixed up. I swear I saw something similar in macII but as the movie really didn't spend any time on the valks I couldn't be sure. Which valks are only in macII... Any??? Was ishtar [or any scantily clad female with the same wardrobe] in any other series/movie?

Is mac II where the "giant floating head" reference comes from?

Is there a breakdown of what video valks appeared in anywhere on the web?

Yeah I know there are many individuals who know a great deal more than me about many subjects... which is why I ask questions... so I can learn. This is what makes MW great... yeah, I may get mocked... but at least I get an answer to my questions . Feel free to mock me and point out why I'm a dumbass... All I ask is you do it as those who have already posted do... IE your a dumbass because you didn't watch this or you don't know this... as opposed to your a dumbass with no explanations. Feel free to tell my I'm retarded as long as you say why

And yeah... I know money is no excuse for knowledge... When I say I have 30+ keep in mind that less than 20% of my mac collection was bought MIB... the rest was either made MIB or is in some phaze of refurb. Yeah I know that assembling a 1/55 from a pile of bits makes me an expert on nothing more than assembling a 1/55 from bits [and not even that till my step-by-step gets finished and linked to] I would never classify myself as an expert and anything else. The day I can get W>M> to PM me asking "how in the hell did you do that?" will be a very good day indeed, although I still won't have a clue about the anime itself unless I keep asking questions

[mechaninac]

Macross II, like it or not, does not fit. You might have been able to make weak excuses for it before the official sequels, but now, forget it. For starters, after 80 years, they've only been able to get up to the VF-2? Come on, we already had the VF-4, now we're moving backward. Not to mention that, after the official sequels, the VF-2 is really backward, and decidedly low-tech.

I'm sorry, but using VF numbering continuity as a reason for why Macross II does not fit into Macross canon is an irrelevant argument. It is perfectly logical for the Valkyrie II VF-2SS to be much more modern than the higher numbered VF-22, for example. Discrepancies in plane number designations are nothing new; the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit bombers are much more advanced that the much older B-52 Stratofortress, also the F-22 Raptor is a new fighter, whereas the F-100 is a relic.

There may be problems with Macross II, and you do a good job at pointing some of them out, but the human mecha are not one of them. IMO, aside from the Metal Siren, MII has some the coolest looking mechanical designs of any of the Macross series.

As a sequel to DYRL? only , MII works, if you're able to disregard later series. I consider it more of a tangential story than an alternate universe, as if after FB 2012 there is a split...take door number one and you get MII, take door number two and you get the recognized canon. They are different, yet equally valid, depending on how you look at it.

[Keith]

I'm sorry, but using VF numbering continuity as a reason for why Macross II does not fit into Macross canon is an irrelevant argument.[/qoute]

Irrelevant how? That's like having a VF-19 in Macross Zero.

It is perfectly logical for the Valkyrie II VF-2SS to be much more modern than the higher numbered VF-22, for example. Discrepancies in plane number designations are nothing new; the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit bombers are much more advanced that the much older B-52 Stratofortress, also the F-22 Raptor is a new fighter, whereas the F-100 is a relic.

Except that Kawamori's numbering system has never made such irrational leaps. Nor does the VF-2SS show a significant level of advancement over the VF-1 & VF-4, let alone an 80 year level of advancement.

There may be problems with Macross II, and you do a good job at pointing some of them out, but the human mecha are not one of them. IMO, aside from the Metal Siren, MII has some the coolest looking mechanical designs of any of the Macross series.

I found the deisgns to be rather weak, nor do they show much of a level of originality. They're simply a cross between Valkyrie & Gundam styling. Kawamori showed much better variation in his advanced variable fighter series years earlier.

As a sequel to DYRL? only , MII works, if you're able to disregard later series. I consider it more of a tangential story than an alternate universe, as if after FB 2012 there is a split...take door number one and you get MII, take door number two and you get the recognized canon. They are different, yet equally valid, depending on how you look at it.

Except that FB 2012 has just the ooposite effect. It doesn't diverge the two versions of the story, it brings them together. Macross II still ignores the Protoculture of DYRL, colonization fleets of 2012, and to top it off, mishanldes the entire message of music in Macross. Then it takes some odd steps by showing a society that's still dpeendent on using Zentradi reckage to build cities & gunships. Had Macross just been about a girl singing to distract an enemy while you can shoot at them, that'd be one thing, but it was about emotions from one person awakening emotions in another person, and helping them see that there are peaceful solutions.

As I said before, just like with Orguss 02 & Gundam 0080, this production team misses the entire point of the series they were following up on, just to make a fast & easy OVA buck.

[Gui]

I think you put the finger on it, Keith: main problem of MacII is that it's a sequel who suffers of the comparison to the original, because as a stand-alone serie it works IMO, and very well Particularly concerning mechanical designs...

Btw, I read in a very old issue of Protoculture Addict of around 1992 that Marduks are supposed to be some degenerated descendants of the Protoculture -and not the Supervision Army- anyone has additional infos about this?

Edited August 11, 2004 by Gui

[mechaninac]

Irrelevant how? That's like having a VF-19 in Macross Zero.

Like having a VF-19 in Macross Zero??? That doesn't even address my point. In my opinion the VF-2SS is far more advanced than the VF-1 and VF-4, in your opinion it's not. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. If you really want to see something that looks totally incongruous with its stated time frame, just look at the VF-0...engines aside, the VF-0 looks far more modern than the VF-1 (I know this has to do with modern aircraft influences, more mature mechanical designing and computer modeling, and higher production budgets, but the fact remains that, aesthetically, the VF-1 looks like a through-back next to the VF-0).

Except that Kawamori's numbering system has never made such irrational leaps. Nor does the VF-2SS show a significant level of advancement over the VF-1 & VF-4, let alone an 80 year level of advancement.

That's just it; Macross II is not Kawamori's baby, thus his VF numbering system is not relevant. Stating that a fictitious machine's numbering system does not follow a linear progression that was not really set in stone at the time the OVA was made, in a project that did not include the originator of said system, is not much of an argument...it's nitpicking. You're entitled to nitpick, but I'm not bound to agree with it.

I found the designs to be rather weak, nor do they show much of a level of originality. They're simply a cross between Valkyrie & Gundam styling. Kawamori showed much better variation in his advanced variable fighter series years earlier.

That is completely a matter of opinion. The VF-1 design lineage is entirely intentional and I see more of a Patlabor influence than Gundam in the VF-2SS...just take a look at the head. As far as originality goes, there isn't much of it anywhere you look, anime, American cartoons, TV programs, movies, they all borrow from each other and influence each other...a truly original work is like a rare gem. I agree that Kawamori's mechanical creations are fantastic, but even he is guilty of derivative designs, and his genius in no way diminishes the work done on Macross II. IMO the UN SPACY mecha from Macross II are excellent.

Except that FB 2012 has just the opposite effect. It doesn't diverge the two versions of the story, it brings them together. Macros II still ignores the Protoculture of DYRL, colonization fleets of 2012, and to top it off, mishanldes the entire message of music in Macross. Then it takes some odd steps by showing a society that's still dpeendent on using Zentradi reckage to build cities & gunships.  Had Macross just been about a girl singing to distract an enemy while you can shoot at them, that'd be one thing, but it was about emotions from one person awakening emotions in another person, and helping them see that there are peaceful solutions.

I'll grant you this one, as haven't seen FB 2012, and used it only as a point or reference. However, if you disregard it, and assume a bifurcation point prior to 2012, than my assertion still stands: "As a sequel to DYRL? only , MII works...".

Also, music in Macross has the effect of confusing the Zentradi exactly because it awakens an emotional response in them that is so alien to their existence that it nearly paralyzes them. In Macross II this effect is used as a defensive weapon against renegade Zentradi forces that did not participate in the events of DYRL?, and still roam the galaxy (the theme of other Zentradi armies being a recurring problem for the UN SPACY is even, however unrelated, touched upon in Macross Plus). The "music effect" is also used by the Marduk through their emulators, but in their, case not to influence, convert or defend against, but in order to control and enslave the Zentradi battalions they use as cannon fodder in their mach of conquest. If taken only on its merits, without the baggage of the Macross canon, Macross II can be enjoyable IMO.

As I said before, just like with Orguss 02 & Gundam 0080, this production team misses the entire point of the series they were following up on, just to make a fast & easy OVA buck.

Again, just a matter of personal opinion. All productions are intended to make a buck, fast & easy or otherwise...no consumption oriented art is ever created for art's sake.

Conclusion: different strokes for different folks.

Edited August 11, 2004 by mechaninac

[Radd]

Again, just a matter of personal opinion. All productions are intended to make a buck, fast & easy or otherwise...no consumption oriented art is ever created for art's sake.

There's a little cynic in all of us. There are different approaches to consumption oriented art, as you put it. The more successful, though riskier, approach is for the money people to give the artists a budget and let them go wild.

The less successful, but for the time being safer, approach is for the money people to make a movie by committee and hope to please everyone while excelling at nothing.

The difference between these approaches is that for the first, while the money people are intending to make a buck and are banking on the artist's talent and popularity to do so, the artist can still be making the movie for art's sake. Admittedly, especially in America, this way of making entertainment is not used as much, but it is still done. Apparently Miyazake's backers took that approach.

I expect eventually we will see more of the first approach popping up again in the future as the public finally tires of lowering it's expectations for the studios.

[Keith]

The "culture shock" aspect of music isn't what won the war in the TV series or DYRL. That aspect of it was merely what shielded them while the "emotional" aspect took effect. In both incarnations, it was the emotions awakened in the Zentradi that led them to join sides with the Macross to make enough of a difference to survive.

If they had used culture shock alone, it would have quickly worn off, and everyone would have died.

And you can agree to dissagree all you want, but the VF-2 doesn't show a significant level of advancement over the VF-1, and is vastly inferior to anything shown in the "canon" sequels.

Again, just a matter of personal opinion. All productions are intended to make a buck, fast & easy or otherwise...no consumption oriented art is ever created for art's sake.

Conclusion: different strokes for different folks.

A matter of fact. You may like Macross II, but that does not make it a good Macross sequel.

[mechaninac]

The "culture shock" aspect of music isn't what won the war in the TV series or DYRL. That aspect of it was merely what shielded them while the "emotional" aspect took effect. In both incarnations, it was the emotions awakened in the Zentradi that led them to join sides with the Macross to make enough of a difference to survive.

If they had used culture shock alone, it would have quickly worn off, and everyone would have died.

It wasn't just culture shock, it was a visceral thing. Weather or not the effect would have worn off quickly is entirely beside the point. I also never made the assertion that it was music, or its effect, that won the war in the original TV series, or DYRL?. In the TV series, and implied in DYRL?, there is a significant amount of time in which the Zentradi commanded by Bretai interact with humanity, and become humanized due to the emotions awakened not only by music but everything else they glean form humanity. Bodolza's fleet, on the other hand, is not affected by this emotional awakening because they were not exposed to the human's influence long enough for it to take hold, and they were just as susceptible to the "music effect", for lack of a better term, as all Zentradi were in the very beginning. Thus they attack human and converted Zentradi alike, just as they were bred to do.

This short term "culture shock", as you call it, is at the hart of the Minmey Attack from Macross II: disorient and disorganize the enemy long enough to obliterate them. The problem is that the Marduk counteract this strategy with their emulators. There is also no interaction between humans and the Marduk's Zentradi (remember, in M2 the Zentradi are mere tools, not individuals) to initiate any emotional response in them; the only thing left is the initial impact that music has on their psyche.

And you can agree to dissagree all you want, but the VF-2 doesn't show a significant level of advancement over the VF-1, and is vastly inferior to anything shown in the "canon" sequels.

Snooty rejoinders are inconsequential. Also, I don't remember saying any such thing as the VF-2SS being superior to anything else from Mac + onwards; besides, Macross II has nothing to do with any of the more contemporary series. In the Macross II timeline, the VF-2SS is more technically evolved than the VF-2JA and the much older VF-1, and any other craft fielded in the interim, with the Metal Siren being the proposed replacement for the Valkyrie II. Comparing the VF-2SS with anything other than the VF-1, and maybe the VF-4, is utterly pointless since they don't exist in the same continuity.

A matter of fact. You may like Macross II, but that does not make it a good Macross sequel.

And the fact that you don't like it does not mean that it is a bad Macross sequel either. It works for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Some people like Macross II, myself included, some people love Macross II, others are apathetic to or dislike it...and then there are those who apparently loathe it, and anything attached to it, with such vitriolic passion that they feel compelled to denigrate anyone who does not share their opinion.

Edited August 12, 2004 by mechaninac

[Oihan]

The "culture shock" aspect of music isn't what won the war in the TV series or DYRL. That aspect of it was merely what shielded them while the "emotional" aspect took effect. In both incarnations, it was the emotions awakened in the Zentradi that led them to join sides with the Macross to make enough of a difference to survive.

If they had used culture shock alone, it would have quickly worn off, and everyone would have died.

And you can agree to dissagree all you want, but the VF-2 doesn't show a significant level of advancement over the VF-1, and is vastly inferior to anything shown in the "canon" sequels.

Again, just a matter of personal opinion. All productions are intended to make a buck, fast & easy or otherwise...no consumption oriented art is ever created for art's sake.

Conclusion: different strokes for different folks.

A matter of fact. You may like Macross II, but that does not make it a good Macross sequel.

....And you may not like Macross II, but that doesn't make it a bad Macross sequel....

Edited August 13, 2004 by Oihan

[bsu legato]

This thread made a decent read right up to the art where Keith compared Gundam 0080 to Macross 2. At that precise point, it swerved into some lunatic world that makes little or no sense.

0080 is better than Sunrise's entire Gundam output since Char's Counterattack.

[Keith]

It wasn't just culture shock, it was a visceral thing. Weather or not the effect would have worn off quickly is entirely beside the point. I also never made the assertion that it was music, or its effect, that won the war in the original TV series, or DYRL?. In the TV series, and implied in DYRL?, there is a significant amount of time in which the Zentradi commanded by Bretai interact with humanity, and become humanized due to the emotions awakened not only by music but everything else they glean form humanity. Bodolza's fleet, on the other hand, is not affected by this emotional awakening because they were not exposed to the human's influence long enough for it to take hold, and they were just as susceptible to the "music effect", for lack of a better term, as all Zentradi were in the very beginning. Thus they attack human and converted Zentradi alike, just as they were bred to do.

There in lies the major flaw of Macross II. They treated the Zentradi as if they were merely swayed by one song or another. Earth's songs don't work because the Marduk's Zentradi were put under hypnosis to react specifically to an emulator's "siren song," in a specific attack pattern. They could have just as easily replaced music with colored lights, smells, or word commands. It defeatedt he purpose of using music all together. Just as they missed the point of the "Minmay Attack." Minmay wasn't as a distraction to kill indescriminently, her main purpose in the TV series & movie was to win over the Zentradi to Earth's side by awakening their emotions. The "Minmay Attack," was an after tactic used so that thsoe humans & Zentradi that banded together could have a higher rate of survivability.

Take a look at what the Earth fleet did right when they started their "Minmay Attack" in Macross II. They didn't wait to see if it would have an effect, they just jumped right in iwth an attack. They had no interest in "awakening" those Zentradi in the first place. This is as I said one of the major failings of Macross II.

This short term "culture shock", as you call it, is at the hart of the Minmey Attack from Macross II: disorient and disorganize the enemy long enough to obliterate them. The problem is that the Marduk counteract this strategy with their emulators. There is also no interaction between humans and the Marduk's Zentradi (remember, in M2 the Zentradi are mere tools, not individuals) to initiate any emotional response in them; the only thing left is the initial impact that music has on their psyche.

Macross has never been about "obliterating" anyone. Considering that the Zentradi were mere "tools" in Macross II, and the Marduk didn't need to be "cultured" as they had their own, the proper course would have been for oh I don't know, The U.N. Spacy to make some attempt at contacting them

Snooty rejoinders are inconsequential.

There's nothing snooty about it, the Macross II desigsn just don't show any significant level of evolution.

Also, I don't remember saying any such thing as the VF-2SS being superior to anything else from Mac + onwards; besides, Macross II has nothing to do with any of the more contemporary series. In the Macross II timeline, the VF-2SS is more technically evolved than the VF-2JA and the much older VF-1, and any other craft fielded in the interim, with the Metal Siren being the proposed replacement for the Valkyrie II. Comparing the VF-2SS with anything other than the VF-1, and maybe the VF-4, is utterly pointless since they don't exist in the same continuity.

The point about Macross Plus is to show just what sort of improvement there "should" have been in Macross II.

And the fact that you don't like it does not mean that it is a bad Macross sequel either. It works for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Some people like Macross II, myself included, some people love Macross II, others are apathetic to or dislike it...and then there are those who apparently loathe it, and anything attached to it, with such vitriolic passion that they feel compelled to denigrate anyone who does not share their opinion.

As I said, you can like Macross II all you want, but that doesn't make it a good sequel. Fact of the matter is that it ignores far more than it follows, and misses many of the points about the series in general.

0080 is better than Sunrise's entire Gundam output since Char's Counterattack.

0080 is interesting as a sidestory, but doesn't share much at all in common with Tomino's Gundam (0079-Victory). Much like Macross II & Orguss 02 (all by the smae production company), it has an entirely different feeling that would lend itself better to something else un-related with the franchises they were trying to follow.

[mechaninac]

There in lies the major flaw of Macross II. They treated the Zentradi as if they were merely swayed by one song or another. Earth's songs don't work because the Marduk's Zentradi were put under hypnosis to react specifically to an emulator's "siren song," in a specific attack pattern. They could have just as easily replaced music with colored lights, smells, or word commands. It defeatedt he purpose of using music all together. Just as they missed the point of the "Minmay Attack." Minmay wasn't as a distraction to kill indescriminently, her main purpose in the TV series & movie was to win over the Zentradi to Earth's side by awakening their emotions. The "Minmay Attack," was an after tactic used so that thsoe humans & Zentradi that banded together could have a higher rate of survivability.

Take a look at what the Earth fleet did right when they started their "Minmay Attack" in Macross II. They didn't wait to see if it would have an effect, they just jumped right in iwth an attack. They had no interest in "awakening" those Zentradi in the first place. This is as I said one of the major failings of Macross II.

Your very assertions that the music gambit used in Macross II is intended only to increase the survivability of the Earth forces bolsters my argument that that was its intent from the very beginning of the OVA. Again, as I've stated before, the Zentradi under the Marduk are pawns; they're even kept in stasis chambers. I never made any comment about Minmey's music being used for indiscriminate killing in the original series or the movie; however, the fact that her songs were not thus used in that time frame, in no way disqualifies their use to gain tactical advantage in a society 80 years removed that has found itself under repeated attacks from an enemy they know to be adversely, at least at first, affected by music.

The Earth fleet's action is right on the money...when you have your enemy in chaos, you take advantage; there would be plenty of time to convert any survivors after the battle is won. Again, the matter of available time for the music effect's to change from one of sensory shock to one of emotional enlightenment is paramount. The OVA is six episodes long and the story it chronicles spans a much shorter time span than the original series.

The fact that Macross II does not follow the prescribed format of the original is irrelevant inasmuch as they are generations apart.

Macross has never been about "obliterating" anyone. Considering that the Zentradi were mere "tools" in Macross II, and the Marduk didn't need to be "cultured" as they had their own, the proper course would have been for oh I don't know, The U.N. Spacy to make some attempt at contacting them

Macross has its story. Macross II, although based on the original for its structure and antagonists, is an original take on an alternate evolution of that society. Again, it's 80 years later, attitudes change. The fact that it takes that track is rather refreshing, and IMO, perfectly valid.

There's nothing snooty about it, the Macross II desigsn just don't show any significant level of evolution.

Again, your opinion.

The point about Macross Plus is to show just what sort of improvement there "should" have been in Macross II.

Wrong. The point of Macross Plus is to bridge the gap between the original Macross series and FB2012, and Macross 7. It shows the development of two competing VF designs, with a love triangle and psychotic computer diva stories thrown in for good measure. M+ has absolutely nothing to do with M2, or M2 with M+. Comparing mecha from those series is utterly pointless. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around that simple fact is rather amusing.

As I said, you can like Macross II all you want, but that doesn't make it a good sequel. Fact of the matter is that it ignores far more than it follows, and misses many of the points about the series in general.

Once more, it's a matter of personal opinion. Ignoring some of the more insipient (music converts enemies into allies) aspects of the original Macross is one of the good things about Macross II in my opinion.

[Oihan]

This brings back memories of AFM.

[Keith]

Your very assertions that the music gambit used in Macross II is intended only to increase the survivability of the Earth forces bolsters my argument that that was its intent from the very beginning of the OVA.

And as usual, you're missing the entire point, which is that is "not" what music has "ever" been about in Macross. That they would use music primarily in such a way again is one of the major flaws in II.

Again, as I've stated before, the Zentradi under the Marduk are pawns; they're even kept in stasis chambers. I never made any comment about Minmey's music being used for indiscriminate killing in the original series or the movie; however, the fact that her songs were not thus used in that time frame, in no way disqualifies their use to gain tactical advantage in a society 80 years removed that has found itself under repeated attacks from an enemy they know to be adversely, at least at first, affected by music.

Repeated attacks? There supposedly hadn't been any attacks in over a decade. And not knowing that these Zentradi were under Marduk control, there would be no reason "not" to try negotiating with them first, especially since a large part of the populace would be Zentradi. The U.N. Spacy post war wasn't in the business of genocide.

The Earth fleet's action is right on the money...when you have your enemy in chaos, you take advantage; there would be plenty of time to convert any survivors after the battle is won. Again, the matter of available time for the music effect's to change from one of sensory shock to one of emotional enlightenment is paramount. The OVA is six episodes long and the story it chronicles spans a much shorter time span than the original series.

To strike without an attempt at negotiation isn't even remotely a human tactic. They just saw ships folding in, and began shooting at them. That is not the act of a peaceful society. Considering their actions, the Marduk were fully justified in continuing to press their attack.

The fact that Macross II does not follow the prescribed format of the original is irrelevant inasmuch as they are generations apart.

The fact that Macross II doesn't follow the format of the original is very relivent, considering that those themes are strong themes of the franchise in general. Changing is ignoring everything which came before.

Macross has its story. Macross II, although based on the original for its structure and antagonists, is an original take on an alternate evolution of that society. Again, it's 80 years later, attitudes change. The fact that it takes that track is rather refreshing, and IMO, perfectly valid.

Original take? It's damn near scene for scene (with some obvious differences) using the structure of DYRL. Problem being they missed some of the more important aspects of the storyline, as well as not having a TV series pre-existing to support the characters & events depicted. What's there isn't an evolution in the society, it's a complete disregard to canon which came before. If you find watching DYRL over again with all the quality watered out "refreshing" ......

[qoute]Again, your opinion.

And your opinion that I'm wrong is nothing more than "your" opinion.

QUOTE

The point about Macross Plus is to show just what sort of improvement there "should" have been in Macross II.

Wrong. The point of Macross Plus is to bridge the gap between the original Macross series and FB2012, and Macross 7. It shows the development of two competing VF designs, with a love triangle and psychotic computer diva stories thrown in for good measure. M+ has absolutely nothing to do with M2, or M2 with M+. Comparing mecha from those series is utterly pointless. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around that simple fact is rather amusing.[/quote[

Will you at least try to make some attempt at reading what you're replying to? The "point" about "bringing up" Macross Plus was to compare the type of variable fighter evolution that "should have" been in Macross II. Dig? Beisdes which, in attempting to be a Macross sequel, II is open to scrutiy compared with what Kawamori followed the series up with. Irregardless, history has already shown that what I'm saying on this matter is correct, as Macross II was indeed schluffed off to the side as Kawamori's sequels took the forefront. Your argumentativeness on this matter is inane.

Once more, it's a matter of personal opinion. Ignoring some of the more insipient (music converts enemies into allies) aspects of the original Macross is one of the good things about Macross II in my opinion.

Sorry chief, but that's all merely a matter of "your" opinion, as the facts of state of the Macross franchise & its canon prove otherwise. Deal with it.

[mechaninac]

Where to start? Different people see different meanings in different things. Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. Besides, you seem to think that there is some deep philosophical meaning to a children's show...disturbing to say the least. It's a cartoon! Transformable fighters don't exist, never will! Huge, emotionally retarded aliens don't exist! Get some perspective, will you? Sheesh, how pedantic can one person get over something as meaningless as a this?

It's apparent that you just post flame bait, by making ridiculous assertions, in the hopes that someone will refute it, so that you can come out of your hole and strike.

Your initial assertion that the numbering of the Valkyrie II, as VF-2SS, flying in the face of the existence of other higher numbered ones, being one of the reasons to dismiss Macross II was such a ridiculous assertion. All I did was point out that the shows have nothing to do with each other, thus there is no valid comparison for the mechanical designs. Macross II, and Macross Plus/Macross 7 are concurrent in that they follow their own development form a common point, mutually exclusive in that they have nothing to do with each other once the split occurs, and valid in they own way because they are just different interpretations. Criticism is one thing, but absolutism is intellectually dishonest. In this light, bringing up Macross Plus to bolster your assertions about Macross II is an auspicious argument.

From the very beginning, all I did was offer my opinion, and state it as such; all you've done is try to position your OPINION as superior.

I've come to the conclusion that you're, somehow, emotionally incapable of accepting other people's opinions. You seem hell-bent in proving that you're absolutely right and I'm absolutely wrong; that smacks of childish arrogance or zealotry, or both.

Thus, let me assuage your over bloated, yet fragile, opinion of your own superiority by saying: "Oh great omniscient Keith, you're right (sic.), and all we mere mortals are wrong, unworthy or comprehending your self aggrandizing, fatuous, narcissistic, imperious intellect."

You should hope to never have to swallow that over inflated superiority complex you have as you're liable to end up choking on it. Very few people would come to the rescue on such a pompous ass.

As my motto says: a waste (you) is a terrible thing (for me) to mind.

You bore me.

Edited August 16, 2004 by mechaninac

[Druna Skass]

Well at least this isn't another Macross 7 thread...

[Gui]

Even if the only difference is that there's a 2 instead of a 7 into the title of the topic

Edited August 16, 2004 by Gui

[Keith]

Where to start? Different people see different meanings in different things. Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. Besides, you seem to think that there is some deep philosophical meaning to a children's show...disturbing to say the least. It's a cartoon! Transformable fighters don't exist, never will! Huge, emotionally retarded aliens don't exist! Get some perspective, will you? Sheesh, how pedantic can one person get over something as meaningless as a this?

That is such a load of B.S. I more than proved my point, you refuse to admit the very fact that it is non-canon because the creator of the series says it's so, and the money backers agreed. You have no argument.

It's apparent that you just post flame bait, by making ridiculous assertions, in the hopes that someone will refute it, so that you can come out of your hole and strike.

It's apparent that once you have nothing left to argue, you resort to this petty B.S. trying to save face (as if anyone cared in the first place), get over it.

Your initial assertion that the numbering of the Valkyrie II, as VF-2SS, flying in the face of the existence of other higher numbered ones, being one of the reasons to dismiss Macross II was such a ridiculous assertion.

Unless (oh my god) you actually pay attention to continuity.

All I did was point out that the shows have nothing to do with each other, thus there is no valid comparison for the mechanical designs.

They have nothing to do with each other....aside from the fact that both try to continue the Macross franchise, one succeeding, & one failing. In attempting to do so, comparisions are to be expected. If the writers of Macross II wished it to be treated as an autonmous show, then they shouldn't have licensed the "Macross" name for it.

Macross II, and Macross Plus/Macross 7 are concurrent in that they follow their own development form a common point, mutually exclusive in that they have nothing to do with each other once the split occurs, and valid in they own way because they are just different interpretations. Criticism is one thing, but absolutism is intellectually dishonest. In this light, bringing up Macross Plus to bolster your assertions about Macross II is an auspicious argument.

Macross Plus & 7 follow up the continuity of the original series (& movie), continue the overall storyline, and add new dimensions to it. Macross II "attempted" to do the very same same thing, but due to shortsighted writing was a failure. In the fact that both are attempts at continuing the storyline, comparisions & contrasts between the two are quite valid.

From the very beginning, all I did was offer my opinion, and state it as such; all you've done is try to position your OPINION as superior.

No, all I've done is position my opinion as "correct" based on the facts surrounding the issue. Again

-Macross II has be relagated to a "non-canon" alternate universe status

-Macross II failed to pay attention to the pre-existing Macross continuity

-Macross Plus & 7 succeeded in both following & continuing said continuity.

I've come to the conclusion that you're, somehow, emotionally incapable of accepting other people's opinions. You seem hell-bent in proving that you're absolutely right and I'm absolutely wrong; that smacks of childish arrogance or zealotry, or both.

In an argument, there is a right & a wrong. If you can not accept this, then don't argue. At the same time, don't cry when others who understand the nature of a debate follow such nature. On the internate, just as in the real world, no one is going to hold your hand telling you that you can be right just because you want to be. Having an opinion & believing in it does not make the nature of that opinion correct, nor does it make you immune to being wrong. If you believe something, prove the conviction of your beliefs in the face of those who dissagree with you. Or go back to kindergarden & cry to your teacher.

Thus, let me assuage your over bloated, yet fragile, opinion of your own superiority by saying: "Oh great omniscient Keith, you're right (sic.), and all we mere mortals are wrong, unworthy or comprehending your self aggrandizing, fatuous, narcissistic, imperious intellect." 

It's nice that you've been able to stick to the actual issues all this time. Roaming off into inane name calling is the sign of an excellent debator....

You should hope to never have to swallow that over inflated superiority complex you have as you're liable to end up choking on it. Very few people would come to the rescue on such a pompous ass.

You should hope to one day understand the difference between supporting an opinion, & having an opinion. Just because you have an opinion, does not make that opinion valid. You may believe tree's are made of pizza, but unless you have facts to support it, that opinion is pure B.S.

As my motto says: a waste (you) is a terrible thing (for me) to mind.

You bore me.

Makes about as much inane lack of sense as everything else you've said.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I thought the dogfighting, music and mechs were ok in this. For people like me who pretty much thought macross had ended with the tv series and movie, (given the assumption that macross had not originally intended to have a sequel and may never in the future) this was water for a thirsty man in a desert. It may not live up to the standards of the fans but I quite enjoyed it for what it was. I'm just going to imagine this as a movie within a movie. Fans in fictional world saw DYRL and loved it, demanding a sequel. Then Macross II was made quickly and like in the real world; rushed out to rake in profits and we have the sequel to DYRL? J/k

I had the manga a long time ago and remember thinking wtf? who are these new characters and enemies? The story was so formulaic though and you could almost tell how the enemy confrontation and problems were going to be resolved without needing to see everything. It's interesting that the Marduk males aren't tempted by all the near fully-naked female emulators in the skimpy outfits. (at least the Zents from the tv and movie were ignorant or had forgotten the ancient mating rituals, which was thier excuse: believing love stops warlike behaviour and weakens them. They weren't gay or anything, they just forgot - not the marduk though)

..So as a solution all the humans need to do in future is create a virtual holographic XXX-porno, beam this to all the monitors and holographic projectors and the enemy-aliens would get the idea to defect and start behaving. Now that's a distraction that'd buy time to quickly eliminate the higher ranking enemies and cause chaos amoungst the lower-ranked brainwashed slaves who can't think for themselves. They won't know what to do because once thier leader is gone they can celebrate thier individual freedom and concentrate on getting on with the naked emulators without fear, and bringing peace to the galaxy. If the singing isn't working then at least beaming images would make them pay attention. You can't ignore large holographic porn. Heck it would be the ultimate defense and a reminder to all the other of what they are destroying, making thier enemies gradally more complacent and weaker-willed.

Edited August 17, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Panon]

You should hope to one day understand the difference between supporting an opinion, & having an opinion. Just because you have an opinion, does not make that opinion valid.

Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

[Gaijin]

You guys......

[Druna Skass]

You should hope to one day understand the difference between supporting an opinion, & having an opinion. Just because you have an opinion, does not make that opinion valid.

I suggest you follow your own advice...

[Keith]

You should hope to one day understand the difference between supporting an opinion, & having an opinion. Just because you have an opinion, does not make that opinion valid.

I suggest you follow your own advice...

I do, as I'm not the one whining whenever someone dissagree's with me. I argue my point, not whine like a little bitch.

[Keith]

..So as a solution all the humans need to do in future is create a virtual holographic XXX-porno, beam this to all the monitors and holographic projectors and the enemy-aliens would get the idea to defect and start behaving. Now that's a distraction that'd buy time to quickly eliminate the higher ranking enemies and cause chaos amoungst the lower-ranked brainwashed slaves who can't think for themselves. They won't know what to do because once thier leader is gone they can celebrate thier individual freedom and concentrate on getting on with the naked emulators without fear, and bringing peace to the galaxy. If the singing isn't working then at least beaming images would make them pay attention. You can't ignore large holographic porn. Heck it would be the ultimate defense and a reminder to all the other of what they are destroying, making thier enemies gradally more complacent and weaker-willed.

I dissagree. That type of "culture shock" is the type that wears off thet fastest, not to mention is the easiest ignored as all they had to do was turn away or turn off their displays.

Edited August 18, 2004 by Keith

[Druna Skass]

I do, as I'm not the one whining whenever someone dissagree's with me. I argue my point, not whine like a little bitch.

"I'm not the one whining..."

OK so let me get this straight, you argue, and the other guy (doesn't matter who it is) whines like a little bitch?

True you argue your points, but that doesn't nessesarily mean your opinion is more valid than someone elses (especialy over something as trivial as an anime series).

[Wabbit]

People, people, calm down! There is really no point to go on argueing when all the sensible arguments are depleted and then turn to flaming eachother.

That's the point when everyone's different opinion cannot be changed and nothing can be done about it other than rolling on the floor fighting eachother, which only get you a warning from the mods.

[Keith]

I do, as I'm not the one whining whenever someone dissagree's with me. I argue my point, not whine like a little bitch.

"I'm not the one whining..."

OK so let me get this straight, you argue, and the other guy (doesn't matter who it is) whines like a little bitch?

True you argue your points, but that doesn't nessesarily mean your opinion is more valid than someone elses (especialy over something as trivial as an anime series).

That I back up my arguments, and others do not (instead choosing to white theat i won't accept their opinion as valid since I'm dissagreeing with it), makes mine more valid.

[Druna Skass]

That I back up my arguments, and others do not (instead choosing to white theat i won't accept their opinion as valid since I'm dissagreeing with it), makes mine more valid.

Everyone loves objectivity...

I'll just leave it at that and leave you to your own interpertations of that statement...

[tim patterson]

I know I am getting flamed for this one...

But to use the "R" word...

Why I dislike Macross II,

The similarities between Macross II and Robotech masters are too obvious.

A Human sized alien race in control of the Zentradi.

Gigantic ships with their entire race contained within.

Singers to control their populous.

The singer taken by the humans introduced to the human way of life / falls in love with said human.

SDF-1 site / Macross gets destroyed at the end.

There is more if you look for it.

Why I like it,

I love the design and look of the VF-2SS, I mean just look at this:

http://members.shaw.ca/decepticon/WCheng/DSCN2935.jpg

Also It fits into all of the timelines if you place it AFTER all of the other series and OAVs.

Edited August 18, 2004 by tim patterson

[Druna Skass]

Yup the VF-2SS is really a beautiful design, though I like the sharp angles on the VF-2JA a little more though.

[Radd]

I know I am getting flamed for this one...

But to use the "R" word...

Why I dislike Macross II,

The similarities between Macross II and Robotech masters are too obvious.

A Human sized alien race in control of the Zentradi.

Gigantic ships with their entire race contained within.

Singers to control their populous.

The singer taken by the humans introduced to the human way of life / falls in love with said human.

SDF-1 site / Macross gets destroyed at the end.

There is more if you look for it.

Why I like it,

I love the design and look of the VF-2SS, I mean just look at this:

http://members.shaw.ca/decepticon/WCheng/DSCN2935.jpg

Also It fits into all of the timelines if you place it AFTER all of the other series and OAVs.

I still think that's more than slightly stretching things. There are simularities, sure, but those simularities are very general. Some of the points you brought up don't even really fit in the context you're trying to apply them too.

The SDF-1 was not destroyed at the end of Masters, it was destroyed at the end of the Macross Saga in Robotech. Saying that "well, the SDF-1's ruins were destroyed" is too far removed.

Gigantic ships that carry their entire race? Heck, they're just a rip off of the Zentradi that are more advanced. You could say the Zentradi all lived on Gigantic ships that carried their entire race and that was the basis for the Marduk.

Any connection between MII and R:Masters sounds like the law of fives to me.

[Agent ONE]

The initial post is so crazy backward, I am not sure if we are talking about M2, like the subject says, or about MPlus...

This should have been locked on grounds of utter confusion.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I dissagree. That type of "culture shock" is the type that wears off thet fastest, not to mention is the easiest ignored as all they had to do was turn away or turn off their displays.

Yeah but even if they could force themselves to turn away, curiosity would get the better of them and at least slow down thier reactions, (like the demonstrated kissing) weakening thier focus on the battle. In DYRL when Hikaru and Misa are trying to escape and the soldiers are about to recapture them, Roy tells them to perform a kiss which disgusts and intrigues them long enough to make an escape to get away. If a kiss could do that, then an x-rated porno would send them packing.

I often see the similarity here with how women are disgusted and scared of cockroaches, bugs, spiders or rats but not other types of things. (insects as much as they are harmless) Or how elephants; although much greater in size, have a phobia of mice. (although it has been found they are scared of what they don't know) Maybe they don't want to get contaminated or catch something? Even though the said fear is illogical, and the thing quite harmless, that doesn't explain why they are scared. Women will even jump onto a chair at the site of a mouse. Lizards? no reaction. Flies? nothing. Mice? "EEEEEEEkk!!" To aliens we are creepy.

Remember all they would need is a distraction long enough to target the guy giving them thier orders and upset thier chain of command. Seeing as the average intelligence of a zentreadi has been kept at a minimum to maintain total order, humans can use this to thier advantage by splitting thier forces apart using constant psychological attacks. Whatever scares them to gain any advantage at all, no matter how wierd we think that fear might be to us. Remember the Zentreadi spies in the tv series didn't choose thier risky mission out of devotion to the cause, but more because they secretly wanted to see minmay and more of those scantily-clad chics from the beauty contest. That much was obvious. They may not have been able to explain thier "strange feelings" they got to thier supreme commander and breetai at the time, but that was them just not being able to hold back thier sexual urge after it was awakened at the sight of the females in clothes.

Edited August 19, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker