PS3 to use Blu-Ray

[Terpfen]

So, any comparisons of HD DVD and Blu-Ray? What little I've read points to HD DVD being the better format, able to hold 36gigs per disc as opposed to Blu-Ray's 27, and it definitely will be compatable with older DVD formats.. I'm certain there's other factors, though.

Other way around... HD-DVDs hold 30GB on a dual-layer disc (meaning, the most the format can hold). It is compatible with current DVD players, though.

Blu-Ray holds 27 GB on a single-layer disc, 50GB on a dual-layer. Would you have to buy new DVD players and drives? Yes, but I'm sure the new drives would be able to read old DVDs just fine: for one, if Blu-Ray becomes standard, current DVD laser prices would drop like a rock.

[Radd]

Ah, the dual-layer/single-layer thing puts it in perspective. Blu-Ray does seem to be the superior format, then.

[Commander McBride]

you guys are forgetting another reason why sony may want to jump on blu-ray - cut down on piracy (well at least someone figures out how to crack it). and at any rate this is sony we're talking about. hello. they're the masters of introducing formats nobody wants (i'm looking at you Memory Stick).

Memory stick is no worse than the other half-dozen flash RAM form factors out there.

Actually, I'd have to disagree on that. Memory Sticks are expensive, akwardly shaped, fragile, and relatively large. When you consider that you can get the same storage capacities from a postage stamp sized SD card, and for less money, MS loses a lot of its appeal. It was also doomed to failure simply due to being a proprietary format.

[mikeszekely]

you guys are forgetting another reason why sony may want to jump on blu-ray - cut down on piracy (well at least someone figures out how to crack it). and at any rate this is sony we're talking about. hello. they're the masters of introducing formats nobody wants (i'm looking at you Memory Stick).

Memory stick is no worse than the other half-dozen flash RAM form factors out there.

Actually, I'd have to disagree on that. Memory Sticks are expensive, akwardly shaped, fragile, and relatively large. When you consider that you can get the same storage capacities from a postage stamp sized SD card, and for less money, MS loses a lot of its appeal. It was also doomed to failure simply due to being a proprietary format.

I haven't found them to be any more fragile than any of the other formats. And as far as size, the regular ones are only slightly longer than a CF card, while being half the width. The newer Memory Stick Pro is half the length of the regular, and they come with the bridge to fit into regular Memory Stick slots. Personally, I wouldn't want then any smaller than that, because I really don't feel like losing them. I don't find them akwardly shaped at all, and I don't get why anyone else would. You hold it closer to the end that doesn't go into the device, then slide it in until it clicks. Push the button, and it pops right back out. What's so akward about that?

As far as price, yeah, CF is the cheapest it gets. However, Memory Stick isn't really that much more, if you buy the Lexmark or Sandisk brands. I'm pretty sure that SD is more expensive. Only Sony's first party Memory Sticks are really over-priced... but then again, most Sony products are over priced. They haven't figured out that people just aren't willing to pay extra for the Sony name anymore.

And as far as being proprietary... well, it is mostly Sony productst that use them, but almost all computers have built in readers for multiple formats, including Memory Stick, and so do many photo printers.

Now I have a 4.0MP camera that uses Memory Stick, one desktop and a laptop that have built in Memory Stick readers, and one computer that has a removable USB Memory Stick Reader. All four of those devices read and write to the Memory Stick plenty fast enough.

[JB0]

you guys are forgetting another reason why sony may want to jump on blu-ray - cut down on piracy (well at least someone figures out how to crack it). and at any rate this is sony we're talking about. hello. they're the masters of introducing formats nobody wants (i'm looking at you Memory Stick).

Memory stick is no worse than the other half-dozen flash RAM form factors out there.

Actually, I'd have to disagree on that. Memory Sticks are expensive, akwardly shaped, fragile, and relatively large. When you consider that you can get the same storage capacities from a postage stamp sized SD card, and for less money, MS loses a lot of its appeal. It was also doomed to failure simply due to being a proprietary format.

For what it's worth, I HATE SD cards.

Same form factor as MMC, but they decided to not even attempt to be compatible with MMC readers.

I also don't think DRM belongs on memcards, but that's another story(except that I think it's the primary reason they aren't backwards compatible).

Personally, if I had to pick a favored standard, it'd be CompactFlash.

It's big enough to be signifigant(smaller is NOT always better), and can make use of micro hard drives for grotesquely large storage at cheap prices.

The contacts are also recessed and protected, while they are bare to the world on MMC/SD, SmartMedia, amd MemoryStick packages.

[Max Jenius]

Hell, they could make money off of it. Like selling official sony importing kits for like $50 or something. I dunno...

I doubt it, unless Sony shared the profits with movie studios. Regionalization is designed to maximize the profits of the movie studios by allowing them to charge whatever the market will bear in each area, and to prevent access to the DVD version in a given region before the movie's been released in theaters.

It has the annoying semi-side effect of facilitating censorship (e.g., I've read that the UK release of Eyes Wide Shut has footage that isn't in the US version) and, as we know, creating stumbling blocks for watching anime. (This gets into a bit of a peeve--why in the world do Japanese anime companies even bother to regionalize their stuff? Domestic Japanese releases probably have a higher margin than elsewhere, so it's not like they'd be cannibalizing more lucrative markets if they just made them regionless.)

I'm talkin for games though. While still moneymakers.... there's not really a GOOD reason for region lockouts on games... aside from obvious language differences. Though I'm sure the reasoning makes more sense to a Sony exec than me.

Oh.. yeah... the EWS thing... I liked the new footage.

[bandit29]

Hell, they could make money off of it. Like selling official sony importing kits for like $50 or something. I dunno...

I doubt it, unless Sony shared the profits with movie studios. Regionalization is designed to maximize the profits of the movie studios by allowing them to charge whatever the market will bear in each area, and to prevent access to the DVD version in a given region before the movie's been released in theaters.

It has the annoying semi-side effect of facilitating censorship (e.g., I've read that the UK release of Eyes Wide Shut has footage that isn't in the US version) and, as we know, creating stumbling blocks for watching anime. (This gets into a bit of a peeve--why in the world do Japanese anime companies even bother to regionalize their stuff? Domestic Japanese releases probably have a higher margin than elsewhere, so it's not like they'd be cannibalizing more lucrative markets if they just made them regionless.)

I'm talkin for games though. While still moneymakers.... there's not really a GOOD reason for region lockouts on games... aside from obvious language differences. Though I'm sure the reasoning makes more sense to a Sony exec than me.

Oh.. yeah... the EWS thing... I liked the new footage.

Back when the first Playstation came out, EB decided they were going to sell import Playstation hardware and software (Ridge Racer and Battle Arena Toshinden were the first 2). That idea got stopped fast by SCEA after game developers/publishers(Capcom, Namco etc) and other retailers(Toys R' Us, KB Toys) complained to SCEA that they'd lose out on potential income.

Too bad game systems aren't like the cheap DVD players out now. Where all you do is a couple of button presses and your region free.

[mikeszekely]

The whole region lockout thing is especially stupid in terms of videogames. They're priced relatively the same here and in Japan... just slightly more over there. The average American gamer isn't usually going to spend a bit more to import a game that's going to be out in English a few months later. I think the proof in that is that GBA's have no regional lockout... and you don't here companies whining that they're not making money because people are importing the Japanese versions, do you? Mostly, the games that get imported are the games that never come out here, like Macross and what not.

[Keith]

Exactly, when it comes down to it, who gives a poo about U.S. divisions of companies, as they obviously don't care to tailer to the more ecclectic import crowd. The people they care about wouldn't touch an import game since it has "another language" on it.

[Jolly Rogers]

Besides the time difference in release dates, they are also afraid that the price down in one region would kill sales in another region where a title hasn't been priced down yet.

I am pretty sure any US gamer who were never exposed to imports will stop buying US games once they see how nicely packaged Japanese games are. Screw Capcom USA and their B&W manuals.

[Terpfen]

Exactly, when it comes down to it, who gives a poo about U.S. divisions of companies, as they obviously don't care to tailer to the more ecclectic import crowd. The people they care about wouldn't touch an import game since it has "another language" on it.

The Japanese branches don't cater to importers either, otherwise games would have English text options (and with the storage space available on current consoles, it's quite possible.)

Complaining about regional lockouts is beyond me these days. Sure, it was annoying back in the SNES and Saturn days--no Dragon Quest V and VI, no Star Ocean, no Tales of Phantasia, no Creation of Heaven and Earth, no Shining Force III eps 2 and 3, no Burning Rangers, no Radiant Silvergun, no RAM packs, no high-quality Capcom fighters. Back then, importing was a legitimate tactic.

But, nowadays, is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another? Importing is crucial only if you're impatient. For the more obscure games, Working Designs not only translates them, but includes massive amounts of swag for far less than the prices of Japanese version limited editions.

[Jolly Rogers]

The Japanese branches don't cater to importers either, otherwise games would have English text options (and with the storage space available on current consoles, it's quite possible.)

Complaining about regional lockouts is beyond me these days. Sure, it was annoying back in the SNES and Saturn days--no Dragon Quest V and VI, no Star Ocean, no Tales of Phantasia, no Creation of Heaven and Earth, no Shining Force III eps 2 and 3, no Burning Rangers, no Radiant Silvergun, no RAM packs, no high-quality Capcom fighters. Back then, importing was a legitimate tactic.

But, nowadays, is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another? Importing is crucial only if you're impatient. For the more obscure games, Working Designs not only translates them, but includes massive amounts of swag for far less than the prices of Japanese version limited editions.

Many games do have English text options. The Silent Hill series had English in their JP releases since 2.

There are still tons of games that never got translated. Otherwise I wouldn't be importing games like Sakura Wars, the good Gundam games such as Lost War Chronicles and Giren's Greed (Bandai America can shove their crappy Battle Assault games up their ass as far as I am concerned), etc.

[bandit29]

Most video game systems will never be region free. Isn't the PSP going to have territory lock out too?

I wonder if the PS3 will be backward compatible. That was a big selling point when the PS2 came out.

[Terpfen]

Many games do have English text options. The Silent Hill series had English in their JP releases since 2.

There are still tons of games that never got translated. Otherwise I wouldn't be importing games like Sakura Wars, the good Gundam games such as Lost War Chronicles and Giren's Greed (Bandai America can shove their crappy Battle Assault games up their ass as far as I am concerned), etc.

Super Metroid had English text options as well. Difference is, SH2-4 and SM weren't given those options with the intent of cashing in on importers.

I agree on the key Gundam games not getting translated, but I have to dispute their quality in the first place. If LWC runs on the same engine as the other games, is developed by the same team as the other games, has the same presentation and missions as the other games, then it's going to suck like the other games, and no amount of what I call "importer's lore" is going to make it not suck. LWC, Sakura Wars, and Giren's Greed are not that big a loss. IMO, if we hadn't gotten Disgaea, that would've been a far bigger crime than not getting Sakura Wars.

[Jolly Rogers]

I agree on the key Gundam games not getting translated, but I have to dispute their quality in the first place. If LWC runs on the same engine as the other games, is developed by the same team as the other games, has the same presentation and missions as the other games, then it's going to suck like the other games, and no amount of what I call "importer's lore" is going to make it not suck. LWC, Sakura Wars, and Giren's Greed are not that big a loss. IMO, if we hadn't gotten Disgaea, that would've been a far bigger crime than not getting Sakura Wars.

I have LWC. Trust me, they've tweaked the engine and improved the graphics to a point where it doesn't even play or look like Journey to Jaburo. Anyone who's played both can back me up on this.

Disgaea is way overrated. PS1/Saturn level of graphical presentation. People are only foaming at their mouth because anime style SRPGs are few and far in between in the US market for any console.

[Jolly Rogers]

I wonder if the PS3 will be backward compatible. That was a big selling point when the PS2 came out.

The PS3 will have backwards compatibility. Earlier this year Sony was hiring programmers for their PS2 emulator.

[Terpfen]

I have LWC.  Trust me, they've tweaked the engine and improved the graphics to a point where it doesn't even play or look like Journey to Jaburo.  Anyone who's played both can back me up on this. 

Disgaea is way overrated.  PS1/Saturn level of graphical presentation.  People are only foaming at their mouth because anime style SRPGs are few and far in between in the US market for any console.

Journey to Jaburo was so bad that anything with merely slight improvements would seem like a Godsend. However, Zeonic Front also sucks. Encounters in Space especially sucks. There's not much you can say to convince me that LWC somehow avoided sucking. It's like Madden games: if every game prior to this year's version sucked, why should I buy the latest one?

Disgaea isn't overrated, IMO. It's actually quite underrated. It would be overrated if it hadn't been translated--import lore would've put it nearly on par with the Saturn version of Grandia. As it stands now, the game was excellently done, but only a moderate success. Yes, it's popular because of a lack of games in its genre--but it also happens to be a damn good game in its genre. Kind of like Final Fantasy Tactics. Chalking Disgaea's success up to anime fandom while praising Sakura Wars--perhaps the most cleverly disguised dating sim on the planet--is an odd double standard, IMO. You also missed, or at least didn't acknowledge, my point here: games that had no chance of being translated before are now doing so. If Disgaea had been a SNES, Saturn, or PSone title, it never would've seen the light of day here. Citing Sakura Wars as proof that importing is still a necessity is a fallacy.

Edited August 8, 2004 by Terpfen

[ewilen]

Complaining about regional lockouts is beyond me these days. [...]

But, nowadays, is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another? Importing is crucial only if you're impatient.

I can't believe you wrote this in a Macross forum.

[mikeszekely]

Besides the time difference in release dates, they are also afraid that the price down in one region would kill sales in another region where a title hasn't been priced down yet.

I am pretty sure any US gamer who were never exposed to imports will stop buying US games once they see how nicely packaged Japanese games are. Screw Capcom USA and their B&W manuals.

Screw that. I'm probably the biggest Megaman fan around, and I'm sure as hell not importing Command Mission at probably $10 more than I'd pay for it here with English subs two months from now, just because they put a freakin' COLOR manual in it. And just because it's $10 less here, I don't see many Japanese importing the American ones that come out later, because they get it first over there, in their native language, and shipping is going to eat plenty of that price difference anyway. Again, I point to the GBA... no territorial lockout, no massive swarms of importing either way.

Terpfen, there are a TON of games that still don't make it to the American market. Oddly enough, though, many of them DO make it to the European market...

Actually, leaving out the lockouts might cut down on piracy. You mod your system, you can play imports and bootlegs. You have a unmodded system without a lockout, you can play the imports, but they can probably still allow for the system to tell if the disc isn't legit.

[Aegis!]

I can´t understand why Sony is dumb enough to support a media which in their own words enables you to record your own stuff on it and in the other hand canñt let people record freely on Hi-MD after all the people who have prayed for things like optical out or native MP3 support ( I personally hate MP3 quality but WTH , it would widen up MD market) and whole number of other things.

thanksfully this is not a Sonly exclusive effort and there are more companies envolved cause I´m sick and tired of being forced to reduce my expectatives and go the Sony way with their niche media formats and all that.

[Mr.Sci-Fi]

Blue-ray is around the corner for everything that currently runs dvd format, Video recorders/players, game consoles, computers. I wouldn't worry too much about copying or region blockage from this format, just like any technology that's put out, there's always a code breaker willing to tackle it. If blue ray is going to be the next big in your face tech, even more than the usual amount of hackers will be attacking it form every direction.

Has nintendo or MS said anyhting about there next format? More than likely with sony's move the others might join in on it.

[JB0]

Disgaea is way overrated. PS1/Saturn level of graphical presentation. People are only foaming at their mouth because anime style SRPGs are few and far in between in the US market for any console.

Disgaea is NOT PS1/Saturn level graphics.

PS1 level graphics would have MAJOR aliasing on the map.

It IS over-rated, though not massively so. There's some serious flaws in the gameplay implementation.

I think it gets most of it's credit for being just plain fun. It's amusing if nothing else.

Now if you want massively over-rated, go check out FF7. People act like it's the only video game in the world, when it's poorly written garbage that consists of more plotholes than plot; "gameplay" that wasn't exactly great a decade ago; and a few interesting concepts with flawed executions.

[Terpfen]

I can't believe you wrote this in a Macross forum.

Believe it, because the context isn't the distribution of Macross, it's the availability of video games. Two different concepts.

Terpfen, there are a TON of games that still don't make it to the American market. Oddly enough, though, many of them DO make it to the European market...

I'm not disputing that there are games that don't get imported. I'm disputing the idea that genuinely interesting, quality games aren't making it here. Most of the games we're missing out on are games like Xenosaga Freaks, which is a mascot game (note that we got Xenosaga, which ten years ago wouldn't have been translated.) What else are we missing out on? Primarily sims, be they dating sims or railroad engineer sims. Hell, we even got Incredible Crisis a few years back, and we've gotten games in genres that are practically dead here--like shooters. We've gotten R-Type Final, are getting Gradius V, have gotten Ikaruga, Einhander, Xevius 3D/G, and a whole lot more. We've even got compilations of 2D platformers, a dying genre even in Japan--Castlevania Collection and Mega Man Anniversary.

We aren't missing much.

I can´t understand why Sony is dumb enough to support a media which in their own words enables you to record your own stuff on it and in the other hand canñt let people record freely on Hi-MD after all the people who have prayed for things like optical out or native MP3 support ( I personally hate MP3 quality but WTH , it would widen up MD market) and whole number of other things.

... You mean like how they supported CDs and DVDs, both of which are recordable media? I can't imagine, either.

Has nintendo or MS said anyhting about there next format? More than likely with sony's move the others might join in on it.

Expect Microsoft to use HD-DVDs. Nintendo hasn't said anything, but they'll either use another proprietary format, or regular DVDs.

[mikeszekely]

Now if you want massively over-rated, go check out FF7. People act like it's the only video game in the world, when it's poorly written garbage that consists of more plotholes than plot; "gameplay" that wasn't exactly great a decade ago; and a few interesting concepts with flawed executions.

I hear that. I swear, too, that everyone who says they loved it are just ashamed to admit that they didn't understand it. Meanwhile, no one understood it... it never made any sense at all.

Terpfen... what you're basically saying is that we get most games here, but we're don't get a lot of the niche genres. But that's exactly my point. Companies don't think it's worth it to have a real US release, and they're probably right. But, there are still plenty of gamers who would like to play those niche games, myself included. That's why I figure they should just leave the region lockout out and allow for imports.

[Terpfen]

Terpfen... what you're basically saying is that we get most games here, but we're don't get a lot of the niche genres. But that's exactly my point. Companies don't think it's worth it to have a real US release, and they're probably right. But, there are still plenty of gamers who would like to play those niche games, myself included. That's why I figure they should just leave the region lockout out and allow for imports.

No, I'm saying we get a lot of games in nearly every genre, and I cited two niche genres to prove the point. Or do you not think that shooters are a niche genre?

[ewilen]

I can't believe you wrote this in a Macross forum.

Believe it, because the context isn't the distribution of Macross, it's the availability of video games. Two different concepts.

I am talking about video games.

"is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another?"

To Macross fans the answer is an obvious "yes".

[Terpfen]

I am talking about video games.

"is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another?"

To Macross fans the answer is an obvious "yes".

You're still talking about Macross.

And didn't we just get Robotech: Battlecry?

[Radd]

And didn't we just get Robotech: Battlecry?

Umm, have you played Battleycry and any Macross games? I'm not going to say the PSX Macross games are great, but they're better than Battlecry....though Battlecry may be better than M3. Besides, getting an american made game, by an american company, does not somehow justify not getting a plethora of Japanese games that are related in visuals alone.

The fact remains there are still Japanese games that we'd like to play, that are not getting US releases. Pointing at Megaman of all things does not prove otherwise.

[Terpfen]

Umm, have you played Battleycry and any Macross games? I'm not going to say the PSX Macross games are great, but they're better than Battlecry....though Battlecry may be better than M3. Besides, getting an american made game, by an american company, does not somehow justify not getting a plethora of Japanese games that are related in visuals alone.

The fact remains there are still Japanese games that we'd like to play, that are not getting US releases. Pointing at Megaman of all things does not prove otherwise.

The point isn't whether or not the games are good--the point is, we're getting them, good or not. It used to be that games were filtered for multiple reasons, be they content, graphics, marketability, or any other number of factors. Restrictions now are loosened to the point where the market, not the marketing department, is deciding which games come over.

Ten years ago, we would not have gotten Xenosaga or Xenogears. Ten years ago, we would not have gotten a game even remotely related to anime. Ten years ago, we were playing games like Judge Dredd instead of games like Vampire Savior or Burning Rangers. The last game I can remember that fell victim to the "it's too Japanese" filter was Goemon, when Working Designs attempted to bring the latest game in the series to the US--and Sony blocked them. That's it.

The problem with Macross games coming over here is the same problem with Macross series coming over here. Don't blame the video game market for Harmony Gold's shortcomings.

And, if you'll notice, I didn't point "at Megaman of all things." I pointed at Megaman as an example of a dying genre. Megaman Legends and the X series have gone 3D. The 2D platformer is a dead genre on consoles--yet we still got the most recent games in that dead genre. Even the 2D fighter is dying, if you've read recent statements from Capcom and SNK.

Now, if the demand is more for Macross games than for certain obscure games, then that's fine--but, people, don't frame the debate in terms of "We aren't getting any of the really good series," because this is demonstrably false. Frame it in terms of "Some idiot company is using their copyrights to prevent Macross games from being domestically released."

No more replies from me.

[ewilen]

I am talking about video games.

"is there any game that doesn't get translated at one point or another?"

To Macross fans the answer is an obvious "yes".

You're still talking about Macross.

Yes, I'm talking about Macross video games. The latest of the bunch, released in October 2003 for the PS2, is discussed in a number of threads in the Macross:Gaming section. Prospects for a US release are murky at best.

And didn't we just get Robotech: Battlecry?

Who said anything about Robotech?

[ewilen]

Now, if the demand is more for Macross games than for certain obscure games, then that's fine--but, people, don't frame the debate in terms of "We aren't getting any of the really good series," because this is demonstrably false.

Since "good" depends on what the user wants, it can't possibly be false.

To the fan who doesn't get his game, there's no difference between the market ignoring the needs of fans of obscure games and the market ignoring the needs of Macross fans. And broadly speaking, they're both the same: if American Macross fans had enough market clout, the legal problems would be litigated or settled. Since they don't, the region lockout facilitates Harmony Gold's blockade and severely reduces the export market for Macross video games.

Finally, the whole thing started with Keith's complaint about region lockouts which keep him from playing Macross games. So where does that leave your comment about framing the argument?

No more replies from me.

[Radd]

The point is those games are still not coming over. The point is, while we are getting more games than ever before, there are still good games that just do not make it Stateside.

As for 'dying' genres, they are only dying because the companies have decreed it, and it is not at all related to those genre's level of popularity. Ask Michael Eisner and he will tell you that 2D animation is dead, meanwhile anime is growing in popularity by leaps and bounds. Moreso since most American studios have all but stopped doing 2D animation entirely.

Mega Man has been popular, and remains popular, for years. I believe the only two Rockman games not to get brought over were Rockboard and the Rockman FMV game.