Bri

Rewatched sigh I and II. Great fun, and awesome music.

Already have said it, actually. In one of the early posts I said that Macross is good enough to be worth my money. So I own Japanese versions of most of the material. Also I won't buy pirated material like bootlegs or fake merchadise. That is illegal here and I don't want to support people trying to make money of piracy. Note @DreamsofIstar: Thought "yet" was a synonym of "as well as", wasn't aware of the contradictory clause. Thanks for pointing it out.

The way I understand it is that both BW and Tatsunoko both own part of what we would call the copyright to SDFM. Tats has the economic rights associated with control over the sale of the footage worldwide. BW owns a number of creative designs (as listed on their site) as the staff that created those characters was under employment of BW and Nue or subcontracted by them. Also BW/Nue has authorship rights (a rather vague concept for me but seems to encompass the story and the making of derivatives). Tats will never be able to use those without BW permission. The merchandise license is essentially a permission from BW to Tats that allows the use of those designs, but only for merchandise. What complicates things is the original contract between the diverse parties of the production comittee that produced Macross. Amongst other things the merchandising rights were aranged in that.

The size of a 12 episode OVA and Yoshikazu Yasuhiko charcter designs in the UC universe? I'm in!

Eureka 7, Fafner, Gunparade March, FMP TSR, Raxephon, Vandread, Vandread:TSS, Aquarion, Overman King Gainer.

My point: revenue gained from people like you and me, who in theory should not have been able to watch certain anime but still buy legitimate releases and merchandise of that anime, is an unexpected bonus and not a loss. The damage done is the loss of revenue by people who would have bought a legitimate copy but haven't because they were able to download it. The kids don't count as the latter. You seem to be unwilling or unable to comprehend this so I will leave it at that. *Shakes head* I know my example isn't perfect however it is closer to the actual situation as the creator gets rewarded. Most of the responses failed for the most part, only Vifam 7 pointed out correctly that the person putting it on the internet is the one acting illegal. At this point the discussion has settled in fixed positions so unless new views or opinions get posted I'll leave it at this. Thank you gentlemen for a lively yet interesting debate.

Yup, this assumption would cover the majority of the young broadband users over here. Downloading is the new television, a way to spend time, if it would cost them money they'd just find a different hobby. Although I'm generalising, most disposable income goes towards clothes, mobile phones and going out.

The model looks absolutely fantastic. I'm curious, did you have to make any consessions in regard to the line art at all?

It's frustrating to communicate a point which is clearly not understood and I'm afraid the technical side of behaviour theories would just alienate the debate even more. I guess this is where I fail as a teacher and I refuse to get upset by people I debate with, so let's agree to disagree. As for the "pirates" as you call them, they are the ones doing the illegal act: putting the content on the net. They extend the reach of broadcasts from Japanese television to a world wide audience as it were. The irony is that trough their actions more people can see anime. Content they would never have been able to see otherwise (whether you consider that stealing or not). These actions by the pirates and the people who download generate extra revenue for the producers as some of the downloaders buy Japanese or oversees editions and merchandise as a consequence of seeing these downloaded anime. I'm sure producers fully realise this "advertising" effect and that has been the main reason for the support a site like Crunchyroll got. What I can not seem to get across is that revenue gained from people like you and me, who in theory should not have been able to watch certain anime but still buy legitimate releases and merchandise of that anime, is an unexpected bonus and not a loss. The damage done is the loss of revenue by people who would have bought a legitimate copy but haven't because they were able to download it. The net balance is the loss or gain to the sector by downloading. The kids that download anime but who would never consider spending a penny on it, even if every local shop carried every anime in existence and they could no longer download, can NOT be seen as a loss because under no circumstance would the anime producer get any money from them. With this point I hope I explained my position as well as possible.

This is where we keep butting heads over. A limited amount of people (mostly Japanese fans) pay for the lion share of anime production. The ones who watch but don't contribute or only to a small extent get a better deal. Their ability of aquiring at little cost is a reflection of the market power they hold. This concept is apparantly very unsettling for those who argue from a moral perspective given the hostile reactions to my explanation of this situation. The moral argument: you watch, you pay equally, without recognizing the difference in market power may be more apealing but its not realistic.

It was a simplified example to counter Sketchleys equally simplified example. If you want to define my attitude, I would accept cynical or realist depending on your point of view. I don't think it has much use to try to explain the difference between stealing and freeriding again.

Yes, putting it on the net is illegal, but downloading the copy is not.

The example was meant to explain the concept of marginal revenue to a person without knowledge of business economics. First thing to come to mind and both examples explain the concept. Or they can just take whatever is available from the internet, which they can legally do by making a copy of said information for personal use. You don’t have to like this but it is an option that is available and used a lot. Not if you want to complain about lost revenue abroad. If the product is purely meant for the internal market then complaining about free riding holds no ground. You either accept the existence of an international market or you don’t. For your information: Japanese average home space 121,7 m^2 (wiki) Dutch average home space 120 m^2 (CBS 2007). Like I said Japan is not unique in having to deal with limited living space. Granted I don’t live in Japan but I have visited the country several times and I never found the conditions cramped by my standards. Don’t assume everyone in the west faces US conditions. That’s a bad example. The situation is more like this. Suppose you are a musician and you get payed by a person to give a live concert in his garden. I’m the neighbor who can hear the music and I record it for my own use. As long as I don’t sell it or use it for commercial reasons this action is fully legal. Unless you have any influence or power over me to make me pay, you have to rely on my good will to give you any amount I see fit. The whole moral argument is based on the notion that anyone who has done work is entitled to compensation by all users. -Anime is made by the producers and anyone who watches it without compensating them is stealing. They who watch without paying should stop doing that because stealing is wrong.- However if we analyze the situation, this is what happens: The production can be consumed in a non-exclusive (can’t stop downloading) and non-rival way (digital copy does not reduce the number of original units produced for consumption) and the producer is being compensated for his production by selling to the intended customers (Japanese home market) so future production will still happen. Those who do not belong to the intended customers have a choice to consume or not, there are no costs to this choice as there is no punishment for freeriding. If their benefit from consuming (enjoyment from anime) outweighs not consuming (guilt of free riding) they will chose to consume. Any income generated from those who freeride is extra income for the producers and the height of this payment will be significantly less (quite often even zero) then what the target consumers will pay. The moral argument refuses to acknowledge that the difference in power between the two types of consumers will be reflected in the price payed for anime. Making a digital copy for domestic use happens without breaking copyright law. IP lawyers have unsuccessfully challenged downloading and been shot down by the courts every time. The revenue from these US licenses were seen as part the revenue by several producers, GONZO most notably, and included predicted returns from the US market in cost estimates for future productions. When the license market in the US took a nose dive those producers got hurt financially. The Japanese business model for anime is still governed by sponsors raising funds and commissioning a production company to make an anime with a significant amount of the budget allocated for acquiring broadcasting time. The structure is characterized by a large number of subcontractors. Revenue is gained from DVD and merchandise sales. (METI) Compare this to developments in online streaming like Kadokawas yahoo channel and lean operations like Mokoto Shinkais 5 cm per second. If the DVD sales are no longer guaranteed then it’s time to look for revenue elsewhere. Thank you.

It is hard to explain, but in order to apreciate my point of view you will need to leave out the moral context. This thread is also shows a devision between those who feel people should act according to morals and rules and those who understand the way human behaviour is affected by incentives. You can swim around in righteous indignation, but it is not going to change the current situation, and the companies who can adpat to these changed conditions have the future. I am sorry but no it isn't lost revenue. If someone aquires your product without paying for it legally and is not a prospective buyer then it is not theft but freeriding. Or more technical, you benefit from a positive externality. You cannot count this as lost revenue. The target audience, the Japanese domestic market are the ones paying for it. I'm in my thirties myself and from the west. In the nineties it was hard to come by new material, the community was smaller and you depended more on others to exchange new content. Now fans have become more individualistic as the dependacy on a local community got replaced by an online one. The law follows technological development, not vice versa. Internet technology made new ways of distribution possible and the legal system strugles to catch up. The license revenues of the US market helped fuel the boom in the early part of this decade, until it collapsed when the hype was over. The business model used by the anime companies might be due for an overhaul, instead of desperatly trying to maintain the status quo. Anime has always been focused on the Japanese market, nothing new there. Maybe it's me but I detect a hint of irritation towards me. Honestly it is not my intention to insult, if I did my appologies. I just can't sugarcoat my arguments like a native speaker can. I fully respect your position on rewarding original creators and the choices involved however I feel I should point out this is one type of opinion amongst others.

I agree with Keith here. I'd recommend watching the Zeta compilation movies if you want to get a feel for Gundam even if you haven't seen the first series. If you don't like Zeta chances are that Gundam isn't your cup of tea. Sounds interesting, will have to look into that one. Must have snuck under my radar, hadn't heard of it before. I love it. The story isn't that amazing, but the characters and animation are very nice. Not often that Irish mythology gets used in any medium. Rianon as a confident version of Mikuru Asahina is mind boggeling. Watched Spice and Wolf a few days back. One of the most interesting character driven anime I have seen in a while. The slow pace and the sofistication of the relationship of Lawrence and Holo far exceeds the level of standard rom-coms.

Agreed, it's an evolving market. It all happened before in the 90s when anime faced tighter regulations and was forced out of daytime television. The distribution channels changed but the content remained. Same these days with the rise of the internet. The core business is to provide animated entertainment, the distribution and sale of said core product can take many forms and will change over time. Interesting to see that Bandai is already taking precautions against downloading. I'm very curious if this attachement to physical media -as you and Sketchly pointed out- will remain in Japan if or (more likely) when broadband internet availability gets more widespread. Very interesting point you make here. It's a very reasonable question to pose as a consumer, "why am I paying more or getting less quality then a person in country A?". Macross fans heve been quite active in overcoming their own inertia. Not being satisfied with HG licensed merchandise, direct imports out of Japan are the norm at MW. Internet based vendors like HLJ and Overdrive partly thank their existence from the desire of oversees mecha fans to aquire model kits and toys. Internet has caused the tolerance for price differences to decrease and, just as importantly, the net has empowered consumers to take action.

I know I am playing the devils advocate here but let's continue for arguments sake. You can only say -deal with it- if you negotiate from a position of power. In this case the power lies with the offenders. Kids these days are simply dealing with it, they download what ever they want, and they can't be stopped or persecuted as it's allowed by law. That an offence has been commited to put it online in the first place is not their problem. Might makes right you know. The criminals of today are the legit companies of tomorow. Take Crunchy Roll, a ligitimate anime streaming company, has its roots in the fansub community and hires former/current fansubbers to sub their legitimate content. Please explain this concept to producers of bottled water. Tap water is free yet these companies are making a living of selling drinkable water at a high premium. Anime companies simply have to find a way to make money of the changed conditions. There are ways ya know. For example selling related merchandise world wide (Macross anyone?), high quality subscriber streams, Japanese versions with english, spanish and chinese subs, heck put a lottery ticket in each DVD box for an escort with a seiyuu. Anything you can think of really.

You provide a very interesting insight in to the Japanese anime market. However, regardless of the way of distribution, the Japanese market is the one paying for the production of anime. Those paying customers, few as they may be, determine what anime gets made next (more moe anyone?). Both you and Tochiro seem to be focussed on the illegal nature of downloading. However in several countries it is legal to download, so it is not stealing. So what options do non-Japanese speaking fans abroad have? Japanese imports, licensed versions and downloads. Japanese imports are expensive(if we discount cheap auctions) and more importantly dont have subs. Licensed versions often lack the extras of Japanese versions and are released quite a while after the Japanese versions(dubbing takes time) and outside of the US the selection is very limited. Downloads offer quality on par with the licensed version and only a few days after the Japanese broadcasts (fansubs)/releases(rips) at the cost of a broadband internet connection. Unless you really value having a hardcopy, or the extras on a DVD of either a Japanese version or a licensed version, downloads win hands down in terms of value for money. Personally I have several original Japanese Bluray/DVDs versions of my favourite anime. Just out of a desire to have the best possible quality, call it fan greed. Ironically I would never have bought the amount of merchandise and DVDs I have now if not for being able to download. As for the storage argument (Japan is hardly unique in having a high population density) a shelf full of external harddrives has more storage capacity then a house filled with DVDs;). Some suggestions have been proposed in the EU like adding taxes on internet connections or PCs to compensate content producers like was done with videotapes, soundcassettes and CD-Rs. It will be interesting to see where this all leads.

Downloading may or may not be illegal depending on where you are, but this is not really important, The reality is that downloading can be done without consequence. The choice the individual faces then becomes buy or download. The fan will then only buy if he or she gains more satisfaction from buying then downloading. This does not necesarily mean a superior product but it can be as simple as a good feeling for "supporting the original artist". However this is all basic consumer choice theory. As for marginal revenue, it's not a loss. It's similar to selling last minute seats on a flight. If your plane is filled for 80% and the flight will happen then the costs are considered sunk. Selling any remaining seats at a discount (even below average cost) is still added income. As for the options in between: Online shipping - The buyer faces Japanese retail prices plus shipping costs and import fees/taxes. Only fans who really want that product buy it. Not to mention the lack of subs on Japanese anime reduce the potential number of buyers abroad even more. Japanese is not a lingua franca. Second hand sales and auctions - these don't add anything to the income of the original artist nor will it affect the artists future endavours. Reduced rereleases -these are pretty much the same as licensed products. Lower quality at lower prices. The only edge a producer has over downloads are the extras. Like a physical item (CD/DVD or Bluray in case), booklets, DVD/Blu-ray extras and customer benefits. Remove these and you lose the edge over downloads. A lot is the result of the odd situation of anime being produced and marketed to a national market while there is international demand. It will be very interesting to see how the anime industry will cope with this issue in the coming years.

I’m afraid you completely missed my point. I don’t care whether the seller is a one man show or a multinational corporation; I buy a product that I feel is worth the price. If I don’t like a Macross anime I won’t buy it. If I do like it I will buy it along as I feel the price is worth the product. I don’t buy something I feel is poor just because mr Kawamori is such a nice person with great ideas. Mindless fanboyism just leads to lazy producers and poor sequels, just look at some of the more recent Gundams. However, if you get a warm fuzzy feeling from buying originals to support the producer, naïve as I think it may be, then that certainly gives you an added benefit and may be worth the price. It all comes down to individual preferences. The example you gave perfectly illustrate my point. The Megumi Nakajima DVD gives you a possibility to meet her and offers influence on future projects. That’s the added value I’m talking about. It makes it worth buying it at a premium. Someone abroad won’t have these added benefits and the costs including shipping might be too much so he or she would just download it, because they can. Does Megumi lose out here? No, the foreign fan would not have bought her product in the first place. If downloading in Japan does not affect her domestic sales then any album exported is simply marginal revenue. In effect the torrents are free advertisement for her. This effect really holds for all anime. The people really getting hurt here are the licensing companies whose prices have been driven down due to downloading. They can't compete effectively with fansubs. It's quite possible that the licensing market will die, but they are just a middleman. If this step in the chain no longer adds value for consumers then it's better for this part of the industry to disappear. “So you can't experience this from wherever you are, fine. But how is that their problem? It certainly isnt justification for downloading stuff illegally.” Nor is it my problem, under Dutch law it is perfectly legal to download for domestic use even if the original source is illegal. Side effect of the freedom of information act and tough luck for the anime producers. That’s my benefit for being an outsider, I don’t have to shoulder the burden. Anime is focused on the Japanese home market, don’t confuse service and consumer satisfaction with personal relationships or caring. Catering to demand is just good business sense. Producing anime is a market like any other. I don’t have a particular rozy view of it given the harsh working conditions for staff. The Japanese fans are the launching customers and get certain benefits in exchange, but they pay a premium for that service.

Internet downloading has brought down the price of a lot of entertainment content. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The prices of the last few decades were based on the market power of the producers. The more market power the higher the profits. It’s not relevant that downloading is legal or not, the only thing that matters is the impact of this development. Now the market power of the producers is broken, normal market rules apply: The companies that adapt to the new situation and can still create added value for their customers even when facing a cheap but inferior alternative will flourish. The price someone is prepared to pay for a DVD/Blu-ray or merchandise depends on the value of that item to them. I have no issue with paying the prices for Macross merchandise as it's simply worth it to me (DVD's are a different story with the whole HG thing). It’s naïve to buy to products to support the producers. It only leads to inferior products; just buy the item that satisfies you most. Anime reflects that market perfectly; those who buy decide what kind of anime will be produced next. Downloading does not hurt this market much, it’s merely a kind of advertising. It’s voting with the wallet so to speak. The high sales of mecha anime DVD/Blurays may very well have b( r)ought about the renaissance of the genre. Personally I have no issues with the fan subs; they allow me to sample the contents of current anime. Torrents have narrowed the gap between the Japanese fans in the Tokyo area who can watch pretty much everything on television and the rest of the world that mostly had to buy unseen or based on hearsay or reviews. A lot of good material that would never have gotten a chance a few years back now finds its way to fans worldwide.

Lovely kit, and nice paint job.

In fairness Robotech doesn't have much of a past either. HG has not been able to produce any spin-off or sequel worth mentioning since Macek's original 85 episode series. In that respect Robotech fans suffer as much from their actions as the Macross fan base. As you said, the only future that franchise has is if an outsider like WB takes control in the creative department. Viewing the thread at RT.com was a rather unsettling experience, a few posters in there I'd file under the damaged goods department. I will take your word for it that the average poster of the RT-boards is far saner, but if your able to stay calm at all that garbage they were spewing at you then you missed a calling as a special needs teacher.

To early to judge this anime. Can't really say anything other then that the director has some decent credentials and Scrapped Princess was a good character driven anime. The designs seem overly cute but the discription 'heart warming comedy' doesn't really trigger any eroge warning bells.

Won't beat Plastic Little with jiggle counter. One of the funiest DVD extras I've seen.