Gubaba

I definitely agree with your last point, esPECially in something like Macross, where it's pretty clear that not everyone in the show is Japanese. In other words, I think it's okay to have Hikaru calling Focker "Senpai" in the subs (and the Animeigo subs do just that), but less okay for Luka to be saying "Michel Senpai." "San," "Kun," "Chan," etc. can usually be left out and it's perfectly okay.

Does it actually say "sub vs. dub" in the heading...? Why, so it does! Sorry, I completely missed that. It sounds like translating the movie was insane. If we're to believe the audio commentary, they had three translators working separately to try to squeeze every possible reading out of the (quite ambiguous) dialogue. Even then, one HUGE error managed to creep into the final draft, and the translation of the final line sacrifices a certain amount of "naturalness" (i.e. it doesn't sound like something Asuka would actually say) in favor of leaving the meaning as open to interpretation as it was in the Japanese version. Oh, and the dub was crap, but that's neither here nor there, really.

Umm...I don'na think-a this thread means wha' you think it means. Of course I agree, and it's one of the toughest aspects of translation. To take the End of Evangelion as an example, the English sub (and dub) dropped an F-bomb in the first scene ("I'm so f***ed up"), which apparently caused a lot of people grief. To me, it seemed a perfect solution to a tough problem...how to you convey that Shinji went from using "Boku" (the "I" in Japanese used almost exclusively by young boys) to "Ore" (the slangier, more macho version of "I," also used by Basara)? Simple...have him swear, which pretty aptly shows the change from child to teenager. A literal translation would have had him say "I'm the worst" or something, which completely loses the main point. Yes, it's anime. Yes, a lot of the scripts are rushed, careless, or just plain poorly written. But sometimes there's nuance and subtlety that must be addressed.

Sure. That's why there are always new translations of "Anna Karenina" or "Don Quixote" coming out, and the more the merrier. I'm not sure we need five different possible translations of Pani Poni Dash, though. I think Animeigo did it best with Urusei Yatsura: going with one perfectly fine English translation in the sub, and including liner notes to explain references, translation choices, stuff like that. That said (and I think you'll agree with me here), I find the on-screen fansub notes to be generally distracting. While it's nice to have a note in Macross Frontier episode one explaining the "smoke and idiots both rise" proverb, I really don't need Shinsen Subs telling me that "Fold Sickness" is like motion sickness. First, because that information isn't in the original work, and second because, well...how the hell do they know? I have a similar view of the Zentradi language. Often when it's spoken in Macross, there are Japanese subtitles explaining the meaning. I fthat case, great, translate it into English, please. Other times, Zentradi is spoken and there are no Japanese subtitles...in which case, I say leave it be. The standard subs for DYRL have this problem, which is especially noticeable in the Max and Millia dogfight. Millia keeps speaking Zentradi ("Yack!" "Debrandekan!" etc.) and there are no Japanese subtitles. The subs put words like "Unbelievable!" and "Shit!" in her mouth...why did the translator think we were too dumb to follow? Well...that's clearly not a translation done as rigorously as it should have been done. Some translations are too tame, or the translator doesn't understand the author's aims (or maybe the translator DOES understand, but backs away from that understanding for whatever reason), or the translation is simply...bad. It happens. Hmmm...I think you have a very good point here, and I more or less agree with you, except for one thing: not everyone wants to be a linguist; sometimes people just want to sit down and enjoy a good anime without working too hard. I can understand enough Japanese that getting the gist of what was going on in Frontier didn't cause THAT much of a problem (a lot of the more detailed stuff passed me by, though), but it's tiring to watch it that way. I know it's good for me, gets my mind working, imprints more Japanese on my brain, blah blah blah...but it's not fun. And that's what anime is for, right? It's not like they deliberately put it in Japanese to force English speakers to confront cultural and linguistic differences, it's there to be enjoyed. And I think that a too-literal translation leaves the average viewer without an understanding of the work, and consequently, less enjoyment. (Mark Twain did a brilliant piece where he had "The Jumping Frog of Calaveras Country" translated into French, and then translated literally back into English. It makes almost no sense. I'm sure it's probably somewhere on the many and varied internets if you want to check it out. But you don't even have to go that far...Babel Fish translations are as close to literal as you can get, and they're almost useless without an understanding of the original language.)

Naturally, I disagree. Unless the languages involved are extremely close (Spanish and Portuguese for example), a very literal translation will always falsify the tone of the work; no matter how "faithful" the translator is trying to be, there are no one-to-one correspondences from Japanese to English, and so choices must be made in order to make the work comprehensible. No matter what, you're getting the work as interpreted by the translator. Think of it like playing a Bach cello piece or something. Sure, there's the sheet music. You can tell five cellists to play the piece EXACTLY as it appears on paper, in order to be as faithful to Bach as possible. But those five versions will all sound subtly different, no matter how precise the players are. There's simply no way around it. Too-literal translations also tend to become comprehensible ONLY to people who know both langages, as well. To cite an extreme example, the Japanese word "hiyoko" is used to mean "rookie," "greenhorn," "newbie," stuff like that. Literally, it means "fledgling" or "chick." There are (AFAIK) two basic fansubs of Macross Zero. One has Focker say, "I'll bring both the VF-0 and those fledglings back." It's okay, but still, Focker saying "fledgling" sounds kinda weird (to me, at least). The other fansub has him saying, "I'll bring them both back. The VF-0, and those chicks." Now we all know Roy's quite handy with the ladies, but the true meaning is lost to anyone who doesn't know that the word used was "hiyoko" and what its secondary meaning is. That's not a translation, that's just a mess. Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm done spouting off on translation theory here. If you're still not convinced, please PM me. (Or we can start a new thread, if you prefer.)

I'm not sure I'd trust Wikipedia on this topic...there are so many conflicting reports on what was going through Gainax's collective mind towards the finale of Eva (much of it coming from Gainax themselves), that it's safest probably just to ignore EVERY rationale you hear. You probably know this (it's from the article written by Anno for Volume One of the Eva comic), but Anno stated that Eva was an artistic failure...and he said it before the series had even premiered. Even if it's true (and for the reason I stated above, I have my doubts), sometimes the magic is there and a single artistic failure can be more interesting and satisfying than a dozen artistic successes.

I have to say that I'm with yellowlightman on this...I'm not fluent in Japanese, but I can get by; more importantly, I know good dialogue when I hear (or read) it, and a lot of fansubs seem to be (at their best) almost painfully literal, and (at their worst) entirely wrong. The official subs for Macross Plus are a good example of translation done well, I think (despite a couple of simple romanization errors, like Jan Neumann becoming "Yang" Neumann). It's like they took the dialogue completely apart, word by word, and reassembled it into English that reads naturally and fluidly, and helps characterization (Isamu, Guld, Myung, Sharon, Yang, Lucy, and Millard all have different ways of speaking, and that's reflected in the subs, sometimes obviously, sometimes not). Often, the sub dialogue is vastly different from a what a dictionary-perfect rendition would say, but it always conveys the same information in a succinct way that's true to the story and the characters. Creating a good translation of a work of fiction requires as much knowledge of characterization and plot that creating a work of fiction does. Some fansubbers get this; a large number don't. While there are certainly bad "professional" jobs out there, they're better on the whole than most fansubs. What they gain in accuracy, they lose in artistry.

Let's get out of the vicious snippiness cycle with a bunch of smiley faces... :D :D :D :D OK, now that that's over and done with...I think you're missing Mr. March's point. As I understand it, he was saying that the static quality of certain scenes and backgrounds, while done in pretty much every anime series, was used...let's say more intelligently in Eva. Scenes such as the dimly-lit train car sequences, Shinji talking to himself while trapped inside the 12th Angel, and of course the infamous Elevator Sequence were purposefully minimal, and done in a way that was effective, given what those scenes were communicating. Being minimal in those scenes allowed the animators to really go above and beyond in a lot of the fight sequences, delivering OVA-quality animation on a TV-sized budget. For a concrete example, just look at episodes 17 and 18, the "Fourth Child" Episodes. 17 and the first half 18 are very static, pushing the story along primarily through dialogue, but the lack of motion (and repetition of certain key images) are presented in a smart way that helps build the tension. When everything does finally go apeshit towards the end of episode 18, the animation is outstanding, because it needs to be. Even then, static shots of Eva blood dripping from traffic lights, the faces of NERV staffers frozen in horror, and the animation loop of EVA-01 pounding and punding away help conserve the budget while heightening the horror of the scene. Compare this to, say, Macross 7 (which yes, is perhaps TOO easy a target), where if less money had been spent in certain areas (I'm not sure where, though) and deployed in more crucial places (this being Macross 7, I would put it in the combat and concert sequences...but I seem to be the only person in the world who is annoyed by the fact that Basara only rarely looks like he's actually PLAYING the guitar rather than just strumming a single chord over and over again), the series might have fewer detractors. At least, that's how I read it.

Well, yeah. I think it's pretty clear the air show didn't "happen"...we're just having a bit of fun (at least, I am; I can't speak for anyone else ). That said, I really want Hasegawa to make a blue and yellow SV-51 model...Ranka and Sheryl VF-25s from Bandai wold also be nice.

Where did it come from? Probably the same place Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, and Zjentolauedy came from...the brain of someone who decided that the romanization of Zentradi names on the Arii model kits should be as long as possible, and have little if any connection to how the names are actually pronounced. Seriously, the use of those particular spellings bugs me no end; I don't care if they showed up on an official source, they're totally FUBAR, and I refuse to accept them as accurate. Ah. I guess this is where I have to come out and admit that the only DYRL printed material that I own is the two-volume film comic of the movie, and I haven't even looked at that since before I really learned me some Japanese. I don't have the Gold Book, I don't have ANY of the TIAS books (except Macross Plus Movie Edition), I don't have Perfect Memory, I don't have any of the Design Works...is it any wonder that I have such high hopes for Macross Chronicle to be the be-all and end-all of Macross publications?

BitTorrent, man. BitTorrent.

Whoops...sorry, I must've missed that. I think I started reading the post where you said that, but then saw the words "Robotech" and "art" used together, and my brain shut down from the paradox.

This is a little bit off-topic, but does anyone know what happened to the getfansub wiki? Everything I've clicked on recently has led to a "deleted due to terms of service violation" page. Did someone at Megaupload clean house recently...?

He probably hates kittens, sunsets, and hot fudge sundaes, too.

Hmmm...having just re-read Watchmen, it makes me think of Veidt's "assassination plan"...in other words, if Isamu had shot at the cockpit, Guld would've had to catch the bullet... But really, I agree with you on this one. The "live ammo" incident is so tangled, I'm not sure even the scriptwriter knew what was really going on. (Reminds me of a story I heard about the film of "The Big Sleep"...the scriptwriters (whose number included William Faulkner) had untangled the various mysteries in the novel, but were still puzzled by the murder of the chauffeur that started a lot of the intrigue...so they called Raymond Chandler and asked him who had killed the chauffeur, and he replied, "How the hell should I know?") I've (slowly) started looking through the Macross Plus novel...if that sheds any light on the incident, I'll be sure to mention it. But hey, we're WAAAAY of-topic here. I kind of agree with everyone else...there were so few VF-0s that they could have been put pretty much anywhere (even on the Macross) and we'd never notice (or see them again). But whatever happened to them, photos, plans, and perhaps even an actual fighter or two must have survived, since the "Bird Human" movie in Frontier managed to get every detail exactly right. Plus, enough of them (and the SV-51s) must have survived to schedule the "All That VF" air show...which clearly must have happened AFTER the events of Macross Zero. (Hey, if we're going in-universe, why not go all the way, right? )

Y'know, for someone who doesn't like the show, you have a keen grasp of what makes it such a well-directed series...

I agree with VFTF1...it absolutely can't have been Misato who killed Kaji. It goes against her character, and it goes against the way she acts afterwards. In the comic (which may or may not be canonical in situations where the anime is vague), the hand holding the gun has a Gendo-style glove on...but there was something that made it clear it wasn't Gendo (can't remember what that was, though...it's been a while since I read it). I think it was an unnamed NERV flunky, really...and Kaji's appearance of recognition was not due to his knowing the assassin, but rather knowing what the assassin was going to do ("Oh, hi there. So you're the guy who's going to kill me, huh? How ya doin'?"). As for Gendo..."Truly, I loved you" is the most obvious guess, but it does seem a little trite. Personally, I like EvaOtaku's old theory that it was "Truly, I...needed you." But it'll always be a mystery, and I like it like that. Just like I don't really want to know what Bill Murray whispered to Scarlett Johansen at the end of "Lost in Translation."

Ah...Atlita. THAT'S why nothing came up when I Googled "Altira" (except "Birdy the Mighty" stuff). *sigh* That's what I get for not getting the Gold Book when I had the chance lo, these many years ago...I'm doomed to ignorance in the finer points of DYRL.

Yeah...I'm looking for scans, too. Does anyone know how many stickers each one comes with? mike_s_6's link has the "uncensored" Sheryl cover and a Sheryl sticker...amazon.co.jp has the "uncensored" Ranka cover and a Ranka sticker...is that everything? (Of course, I might break down and actually BUY the singles this weekend...depending on availability. In other words, if Kinokuniya has 'em, I'll get 'em.)

Issue 13 looks to be a feast for the mecha fans... Mechanic Sheet * MBR-04-MkVI Tomahawk * SLV-111 Daedalus * City Space Ship Altira [i didn't know what this was, so I looked it up on Japanese Wikipedia...who knew the submerged Protoculture city from DYRL had a name? Not me, apparently.] * VF-22S Sturmvogel II Character Sheet * People of the Earth U.N. Forces [Like who? Admiral Hayase?] * Misa Hayase [i thoght they were done with her...maybe it's the DYRL version...?] Gallery Sheet * Macross Zero Timeline Sheet * The Reconstruction of Earth [For my money, here's where we get to see how complete (or not) the Timeline Sheets are...how much space will they devote to the "lost" two years? Next test: how many pages 2012~2040 will take up.] History Sheet * The Crash of the ASS-1 Technology Sheet * EX-Gear Song Sheet * My Beautiful Place / SUNSET BEACH Extra Sheet * Macross F Galaxy Tour FINAL

I dunno..."A Complete set of Pin-point barrier systems" makes it sound like baseball cards or something..."I'll trade you a rookie SDF-1 Pinpoint Barrier Girl for a 2059 VF-171 Pinpoint Barrier Punch." Meh, when I put in the next section, I'll take it out entirely. It doesn't really need to be there, right?

Um..don't look too closely at that. Just like some of the guns are "x2" or x4," the description of the armor and the pinpoint barrier system says "one complete set" in the Japanese. I thought saying "complete set" didn't make much sense, so I just left in the word "complete," which probably isn't much better.

Thanks to the sage advice I got here (at at both the Apple Store and the Caltech Bookstore), I ended up getting last year's Macbook Pro...and hey! I just downloaded some Blu-Ray Mac Zero...AND I CAN WATCH IT!!! Conisdering how pissed off I was about h264 when every fansubber and his imaginary friend started switching to it, it's nice to be able to actually not have to worry about it anymore.

Mechanic Sheet Macross Frontier: Citizen Sheet 02A: VF-25S Pages 1 & 2 Crossing the limits of manned aircraft, HUMANITY'S "MESSIAH" against the Vajra! Aircraft Introduction The greatest shackle imposed on manned aircraft is said to be the pilot, but the VF-25 Messiah (used by the Civilian Military Provider SMS) sails past those limitations thanks to several technological breakthroughs. The Extended Gear System, a new type of piloting system, improves both piloting and survival ability by use of the ISC (Inertial Store Converter), popularly known as the "Inertial Buffer," which reduces the effect of Gs in the cockpit. Because of the limits of the pilot's body, it has always been nearly impossible for a fighter to reach its full potential. This problem, as addressed by the AVF Development Project in 2040, has finally been overcome. Moreover, the power output, armaments, sensors, etc. have all been completely integrated, resulting in greatly enhanced performance. Even the VF-171, the primary fighter of the the tail end of the 2050s, lacks teeth in comparison. Keeping with tradition, the S Type is for commanders, and it features more powerful communication systems, as well as an on-board AI equipped with battle tactic command programs for assistance. Data (Data refers to fighter mode) Owner: SMS Length: 18.72m Height: 4.03m (not including landing gear) Wingspan: 15.50m (fully extended) Mass: 8,450kg Maximum Airframe Design Load [hi, Azrael!]: 27.5G+ Engine: Shinsei Industries / P&W / RR Company FF-3001A Stage II Nuclear Turbine Engines x2 Maximum Thrust in Space: 1,620kN x2 Maximum Speed: M5.0+ (Altitude 10,000m) Armament: Rammington ES-25A 25mm machine gun / Mauler ROV-25 25mm Beam Cannon conversion equipped x2 / Mauler ROV-127C 12.7mm Beam Gun x4 / Howard GU-17A new design Gunpod 58mm x1 / Energy Conversion Armor SWAG System / Pin-Point Barrier System / Complete Chaff & Flare & Smoke Discharge System Development Line VF-19 -> YF-24 -> VF-25 Principal Pilot Ozma Lee Page 3 Documentation of Use Using the YF-24 Evolution, jointly designed by Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy, as a base, the VF-25 was created specially by the Shinsei Factory on the Macross Frontier Fleet and the LAI Corporation. Although further developments of the YF-24 exist on other Emigration Fleets, Frontier's VF-25/MF25 is one that can truly be given a new model number. In 2057, the fighter's maiden flight was performed at the orbital base of Messiah025 (the third planet of the M55 System) by the Uraga Class Carrier "Shanghai III." In 2059, testing was conducted by S.M.S. on the Frontier Fleet. That same year, when Frontier encountered the Vajra, Skull Squadron was assembled to try the fighters in actual combat. Of the VF-25 models, the S-Type is the command unit, reserved for high-performance combat operations. [Picture Caption] The VF-25 is used by Major Ozma Lee of Skull Squadron, which forms the nucleaus of the S.M.S. Wing. [Picture Caption] Because it is the command type, it is frequently equipped with an Armored Pack (APS-25A/MF25). Standard Equipment Mauler ROV-127C 12.7mm Beam Gun When in Battroid mode, the VF-25's monitor head block is equipped with beam guns. The guns may also be fired in fighter mode, but the aiming range is limited, being used mostly for rear defense. They can also function as a long-range laser communication device. The S-type has four barrels, the G-type has a single barrel, and other types have two. Howard GU-17A New-Type Gunpod 58mm The primary armament that has been adopted for the VF-25 is the new type of gatling gunpod manufactured by the Howard Corporation. Compared to the previous gunpods, it is larger, but the design of the front armor plate covering the barrel has evolved in order to increase firing time. Also, it is placed under the body in fighter mode (in the place for an engine nacelle), enabling it to be used by either arm. Later, as the battle against the Vajra continues, it is switched out for the upgraded GU-17V, which is fitted with MDE warheads. AK/VF-M9 Assault Knife For close combat operations, the VF-25 is equipped with a Ga-Bar OTEC Company Assault Knife (length: 1.65m, commonly stored in the shield block). Constructed of super-hard alloy, it can be used together with the fighter's pinpoint barrier. Fighter Mode The VF-25's fighter form draws from the same well as the VF-1's, in that it uses a blended wing body structure, where the wings fold back after transformation. Also, it can be said to have superior air power ability because, even if it loses its wings, it can still fly at subsonic speeds. In its goal of being the most maneuverable fighter, the VF-25 receives its greatest strength from from the benefit of the ISC Unit (TO21), which reduces the effects of the fighter's ability to maintain its highest acceleration force of 27.5Gs for 120 seconds. As such, it has enough agility to rival even unmanned fighters. [Picture Caption - Screenshot] Many parts of the fighter's body have high-maneuverability thrusters, with variable nozzles on movable axes. Because of this, the VF-25 has excellent agility. [Picture Caption - Front view, top caption] In the tip of the nose, there is an integrated Radar AA/AS/SF-06 Unit, and the ISC Unit is built into the avionics bay in front of the cockpit. The ISC Unit, being the most closely-guarded secret of the fighter, is fitted with a self-destruction device. [Picture Caption - Front view, lower caption] The slits on the front of the fighter's body take in air and can also act as a Boundary Layer Control system, which lightens air resistance on the wings and body. [Picture Caption - Rear view] The special characteristic of the X-shaped vertical tail and ventral fins is that even if one is lost, the plane can still fly with the remaining three. The rear section of the vertical tail fins also contain various antennae and radar systems. [Picture Caption - Underside view] The stationary gun mount in the wing joint can be equipped with anything from beam guns to gatling cannons. In addition, the pivot under the wing is provided with three variable pylons for auxiliary weapons systems. Page 4 Gerwalk Mode The integrated flight computer loaded onto the VF-25 allows the fighter to be controlled by the Extended Gear. It can gauge the unconscious movement from the nerve impulses in the pilot's muscles, and it can allow the fighter to be controlled by a continuous link to the pilot's thoughts (the concept is similar to to the YF-21's BDI system). Because of the complex operations and aerodynamic control needed to transform even one part of the fighter mentally, there are a number of advantages using only gerwalk mode, especially in cases where mobility is most important. [Picture Caption - Screenshot of Episode 2: Ozma fighting a Vajra] During close combat with the Vajra, Ozma performed the advanced skill of changing from battroid to gerwalk as an evasive maneuver against a point-blank attack. [Picture Caption - Screenshot of Episode 2: Ozma being deployed] The characteristic function of gerwalk mode is hovering just above the ground at high speeds, with a greater level of control than fighter mode can provide. Of course the VF-25 can handle this easily. [Picture Caption - front view] The VF-25's gerwalk form resembles the progenitor of all variable fighters, the VF-1 Valkyrie. But while it has a similar orthodox outer construction, everything on the inside has been massively upgraded, starting with the piloting method. [Picture Caption - rear view] In full gerwalk mode, the shield on the right arm can be used. The skull marking on the back is Ozma's personal mark. Battroid Mode The VF-25 has adopted a newly developed structure for variable fighters, called the Linear Actuator. This is an improvement to the transforming system in which the majority of moving parts are never in contact, but shift electromagnetically. This shortens the necessary time for transformation by two-thirds. Also, many of the more fragile mechanisms have been abandoned, resulting in fewer malfunctions and less maintenance time. This is also connected to an improved durability for the battroid mode. As a result, because the VF-25 battroid has a high capacity for hand-to-hand combat, it has been equipped with the aforementioned assault knife, and has been spotted actively engaging in close-combat operations. In truth, battles against the Vajra are often hand-to-hand, and the two are evenly matched. [Picture Caption - Ozma vs. Vajra] There have been many cases of pilots getting obsessed with fighting the Vajra, and frequent bouts of hand-to-hand combat (or, as they call it, "wrassling") have been confirmed. [Picture Caption - Ozma's glowing knife] When it became clear that some weapons had become ineffective against the Vajra, Ozma in his Skull Squadron VF-25 confronted the Vajra alone with only a single assault knife. [Picture Caption - Battroid Hand] Battroid Hand Parts. [Picture Caption - Front View (Small] The Vf-25 has not only all the previous defenses, it also employs anti-optical-weapon armor, for a superior, completely integrated defense. [Picture Caption - Rear View] In battroid mode, the majority of each wing is protected by being folded into the "Wing Grooves" on the back of the torso. [Picture Caption - Front View (Large)] Also in this mode, since the protection of the cockpit and the avionics (particularly the ISC Unit) is given priority, all of the electronic mechanisms are collected in the cockpit block area, in the frame of the torso.

Slowly. Last week at work was pretty rough. Thankfully, I now have two weeks off, so I can concentrate on it more fully. Today, however, is my birthday...so I'm going out to dinner tonight and don't plan to work on the page until tomorrow's hangover subsides. Sorry. Strangely, grammar seems to be giving me more problems on it that terminology (although that's no picnic, either). There are a number of sections that defy any attempt I can make to render them into readable English. All that said, I'm nearly done with the first section (which includes all the stats) so I should have it up in 24 hours or less.