Gubaba

Who'll love Aladdin Sane? Battle cries and champagne Just in time for sunrise Who'll love Aladdin Sane? And yes, I'm glad SOMEONE is asking the big, important questions. Now all we need to do is figure out what Dolzaa meant when he saw Rick and Lisa kissing and exclaimed, "This must be the result of Protoculture!" And whether Jonathan Wolff was on the SDF-1 or in Albuquerque (I have no idea what this controversy is about, but it must be important, since it's apparently what made Wanzerfan swear off Robotech comics for good, and made him realize that the current staff at HG don't know what they're doing).

You're both wrong. It's Claude Leon.

Of course not, dammit! BECAUSE ROBOTECH! IS! THE NEW! AMERICANA!!!!!

I'll wager some good money that it won't. Are you in?

So? Back me up or tear me down here. How do the American fans react to those edits. Does anyone try to justify them and explain them away, or do they all ignore them when they find out the truth?

Isn't that what I just said..?

The top VF (next to Alice Holiday) is an Fz-109 Elgezorene. The bottom VF (next to Akiko) is the VF-11 "Pink Pecker" Team.

Hmmm...I'm not sure to what extent you're joking here, so I'll answer seriously, and please forgive if I'm telling you something you already know or am preaching to the converted, but yeah...the Compendium says he's half-Chinese, but SOLELY because Manga Ent. decided to romanize his name as "Yang" instead of "Jan." I kind of understand why Manga did it...figuring that most Americans would be too ignorant to know that "Jan" is a Scandinavian man's name, and that the "J" is pronounced like an English "Y," but it was, I believe, a boneheaded move on their part (unless, of course, THEY were too ignorant to know...also possible, I suppose). The fact that's it's become the "official" word is kind of a shame.

I probably should've stopped for the night, but I found I couldn't, so I went on to watch "No Exit." I feel like I've been barraged with information overload, so I'll probably watch it again before too long. So yea...Ellen's back, and Sam's been providing answers (although it doesn't look like he'll be providing any more unless something big happens). I notcied before that there was no Number Seven, but...I figured it was one of the Final Five...so there are/were Thirteen Cylon models? Weird. I'll have to see how it all plays out. (This, RedWolf, means I don't want you to tell me what happens. Thank you. ) Daniel...I'm wondering if this name is meant to ring a bell. So far, it doesn't for me. And, um...one thing that's been bothering me for a while. I keep noticing little scraps of famous poetry thrown in. First, I remember someone (Adama, maybe? I can't remember) quoting an Emily Dickenson poem...then on his radio broadcast, Baltar quoted Hamlet (talking about "this mortal coil" and "the undiscovered country")...and I'm pretty sure that among his ramblings in this episode, Sam quoted Milton. And I suppose you could add "All Along the Watchtower" into this as well. Sam, I can kind of understand. He's from earth; he was a guitarist, he played "All Along the Watchtower" for Tori, and might have read Milton at some point. But Baltar and Adama (I'm pretty sure it was Adama )...? Weird. I don't get it. I hope they'll come up with SOME explanation for it, but it seems like such a background thing, and probably not an issue for most people watching the show. (I'm, erm, trying to go into the ending with lowered expectations. Something tells me it won't be an ending that answers all questions and ties everything up with a neat little bow. Priorities...the creators have to have priorities. And explaining why Baltar is quoting Shakespeare is not high on the list of "desperately need to know" questions.)

As far as I know, in the other examples I mentioned, it's never been an issue. Dr. Sane in Star Blazers LOOKS like a drunk and ACTS like a drunk, so the fans just talk about the "spring water" with a knowing wink-wink. I believe it's generally acknowledged among Star Blazers fans that saying that the alcohol in his bottle was water was a necessary change to get the show aired in America, but no one takes it seriously. I'd imagine it would be the same with Battle of the Planets or Dragonball Z (or Sailor Moon, or Naruto, or Bleach, or Pokemon) fans...as soon as they learn what the REAL deal is, they kind of smirk at the edits introduced into the American versions. In a crazy sort of way, I think it's like songs about drugs. You hear something like "Crystal Ship" by the Doors and you like it, but you ave no idea what it's about. And then your high school buddy tells you, "It's about heroin," and then it all makes sense. This is how it was with me and Robotech in some areas ("Wait a sec...if little Jason is Minmei's cousin, does she have another Aunt and Uncle living on Macross Island? Oh wait...Yot-chan is just the neighbors' kid, not related to Minmay at all. That makes a lot more sense!"), and this how I *think* it is among Star Blazers (or BotP, or DBZ, or Sailor Moon, or Pokemon...) fandom. I would like to think that if a Robotech fan asks, "What the hell was up with the SDF-2?" then someone would answer, "Uh, yeah, that. They threw it in to explain the third mound in Southern Cross. It wasn't there in the original." And then the RT fan, curiosity satisfied, would say, "Oh," and kind of forget about it. Not come up with daffy theories about the SDF-2 being behind the SDF-1, or under the SDF-1, or flying around somewhere else. But clearly, that's not the case. I dunno. Most of the edits in other shows are done with the explicit intention of hiding "adult material" (like drinking, or death, or sex) from kids, so learning about those edits is fun and can be a part of growing up. Certainly, when I first discovered that Dr. Sane was drunk, like, ALL the time, I thought it was funny in itself, and funny that the editors tried to hide that from me when I was a kid. (I also liked finding the dirty jokes in Shakespeare.) But most of the weird edits in Robotech are NOT there to shield kids from things adults don't want them to see (although certainly, there's some of that present)...most of them are done to try to weld the three series together, and that ties them to Robotech's identity as a seperate series from the originals. So then, figuring out where the SDF-2 is, or why Zor Prime is wearing a Southern Cross uniform in his flashbacks, or the musings on Protoculture...well, that becomes important. Because without clear answers, you have to admit that Robotech doesn't hold together as a coherent story. That's how I see it, at any rate. Certainly, I can't think of any OTHER reason why there'd be a massive, massive thread at RT.com debating about the SDF-2.

Okay...THIS is one of the things I find weird about many Robotech fans. They'll seriously try to figure out stuff like this, and give it some kind of rationale, instead of just saying, "Well, Macek cocked it up, but hey...it's just something added to Robotech, it's not in Macross." I mean, to go back to Battle of the Planets for a moment, how many fans argue about where 7-Zark-7's roost was? Or do they think that Zoltar is NOT a hermaphrodite, because that episode was made more ambiguous in the English version? Or the English version of Dragonball Z, where nobody dies, but is instead "transported to another dimension"? Do American fans debate why some characters never made it BACK from that dimension, or do they simply find out that that character actually died, and then just forget about the changes made to the American version? I can see it now...some Star Blazers forum somewhere, and someone brings uo the question, "Why is Dr. Sane's nose so red?" Someone else answers, "Well, because he's drunk all the time." To which the first person rsponds, "Yeah, in the Japanese OSM he was. But in Star Blazers, he's drinking spring water. So why does he have a gin-blossom nose? C'mon everyone, we can make something up!" That person would be laughed off the forum. There really IS no good answer beyond, "He was a drunk. And they changed the dialogue, but they couldn't change the animation. Move on." And the same applies to the "SDF-2" in Robotech. It's not there. And they changed the dialogue, but they couldn't change the animation. Move on.

O...kay... I know that just a few hours ago, I was saying I wanted to strangle Gaeta myself, but still...there was something chilling about he and Zarek facing the firing squad, exactly as Adama had just a few minutes previous. Storytelling-wise, I think it was a brilliant choice. A less confident writer would've had Zarek pull a gun on Adama in the CIC and get gunned down, and then would've had Gaeta, I don't know, go crazy or something and get shot, too. That would have established that justice had been done, the bad guys had been silenced, and the correct authority had reasserted itself. Instead, we get an execution scene (showing people we - or at least, I - really wanted to see getting their just deserts) that was set up almost shot-for-shot the same as the previous execution scene, where the "bad guys" were in the firing squad, and the "good guy" was tied up in the chair facing them. To use a lit-crit word, it really problematizes the end of the episode. Yes, Zarek and Gaeta deserved execution. Yes, there is no way they could've been allowed to live after what they tried to pull. Yes, I wanted to see both of them bite it. But to do it in EXACTLY the same way they were going to execute Adama...it just sets off the alarm bells and makes me feel a little sick to my stomach. Gaeta was right. There's been too much death. (And Zarek NEVER should have murdered the Quorum. Gaeta, from the beginning, has clearly been a follower rather than a leader, and wants someone to look up to, be it Adama, or Baltar, or Zarek himself. And killing the Quorum was exactly the kind of pragmatic (and cold-blooded) move that Zarek, ever the realist, would feel necessary to make, but that would also alienate Gaeta (who definitely believed in Truth, Justice, and the Colonial Way) permanently.)

I second this motion.

Clearly, this "one episode a day" thing isn't going to work...I just watched "The Oath," and...um, Roslin said it best: "Felix Gaeta...who would've thought?" When he took over CIC, I wanted to reach through the TV screen and strangle him myself. Adama's rage is palpable, and I can totally feel it. At this point, I'd love to see both Gaeta and Zarek thrown out the airlock. It's too bad, 'cause I really liked Gaeta for a long time (his interview with Deanna for her "documentary," was the first time I thought, "Wow, this guy's funny." And then helping the resistance on New Caprica...hell, I even understood it when he tried to kill Baltar), but this is just...too much. And I hope Helo gets to put a bullet in the head of the guy who's threatening to rape Athena. Anyway, I feel for you guys having to wait a week to find out what happened next... I'm going to put off watching the next episode as long as I can, but I'll probably watch it before the night is done.

Gosh, I thought it would be about Jack Black's swarthy best friend...

Heh. Did you ever read the Lesnman books? At the end of each one (barring the first two "prologue" books), the hero brings down the evil space pirate syndicate. And then, at the beginning of the next book, they almost immediately find out that the syndicate they toppled was just a mere branch of an even larger syndicate of evil space pirates!!! I'm sure it seemed cheesy even in the 1920s.

I've decided I'm going to stop reading this thread. I'll keep posting in it, but I'm not going to read what anyone else says until after I'm done. I'm gonna try to limit myself to one episode per day (We'll see how long that lasts), which means I'll be done in 9 or 10 days (depending on if I toss Caprica into the mix as well...which I probably will). So yeah...all done for today. Tomorrow: "The Oath."

No, it's because of all the extra dialogue Macek added it, and Reba's West's stunningly moving vocals on "We Will Win."

Indeed. My big question to anyone who likes Robotech better (especially the Macross Saga) is, is "Force of Arms" (to take just one example) so good because of the rewritten dialogue and English Minmei songs? Or is it good because it's a cracking great finale to begin with? Now, I *did* come across a reviewer at IMDB who was slagging the original Mospeada because, in his view, the Robotech version was superior by virtue of being the grand climax to a larger story. This, in my view, is utter nonsense. First, Mospeada has a definitive ending: the Inbit leave earth, and all the personal stories of the cast are worked out, for better (Yellow, Ray, and Houquet) or worse (Stick and Aisha). Anyway, the threads are wrapped up, the story is finished. The New Generation, on the other hand, by adding Admiral Hunter as a no-show (and having Scott decide to search for him), is definitely NOT a climax and practically BEGS for a continuation. Second, if a climax is meant to tie together everything that came previously, New Generation also doesn't count as a climax, since NO characters (and mecha, and...well everything) from previous sagas make an appearance at all. (For the record, I don't think anyone was TRYING to make New Generation into a grand climax to anything, I just think it's kind of silly that some people seem to view it that way).

Hmmm...I had to look up "激アツ" ("Geki-atsu") on Google, since my dictionaries didn't have it... The title is "Super 'Geki-atsu' Production Version," but from what I can tell, "Geki-atsu" refers to winning money (or "not-money, really, since gambling is illegal in Japan *wink wink*). So I believe it's a disc that gives you tips on how to BEAT the game, not anything about the footage IN the game...

Oh, he definitely does...now (check out this interview for more. Lots of facepalming should ensue). But I don't think he WENT INTO the production thinking, "All right! I'm a genius and I can make this crappy story into something great and wonderful." I think all the "visionary" stuff came later. Again, it's all speculation on my part, but I think he made the show, it was moderately successful, and it went to his head. But then, he tried to do the same thing again and again, and it never jelled a second time, even when the name Robotech was attached to it. And all that said, Streamline did make some good adaptations, as well. Their version of Laputa pales in comparison to the Disney dub, but it's eminently presentable. They also did a good job with Twlight of the Cockroaches, Totoro, and a handful of others. Personally, *I* never liked Streamline because they never made subbed versions of their shows available (except for the Robotech Perfect Collection and Akira), but as far as anime companies went, they weren't bad. So yeah...he's got more of an ego than he should, and he made some a lot of decisions that I believe were wrong-headed at best and idiotic at worst, but he's not a monster.

Hmmm...maybe I'll wait until just before "Daybreak" to watch it. I don't have it yet, so maybe next week I'll saunter down to the video store and get it (and I might as well get "Caprica," while I'm at it). Some of that seems like information I didn't glean from the episodes...am I supposed to know all of that yet? Or else perhaps it's all part of speculation that comes from watching the show week-by-week. It's kind of akin to looking at trees in a forest while walking down the road at three miles per hour, versus looking at the same trees while driving down the road at sixty. With a week (or weeks, or months) between new episodes, it gives everyone time to sit back, rewatch the same episodes again and again, and soak in all the information you can find (as most of us posting in this thread did with Macross Frontier). But for me, I'm watching each episode once, and then directly on to the next one. earlier this week, I found Battlestar Wiki, but as it says "spoilers are to be expected," I've used it only sparingly...and even then, only for the original series and Galactica 1980 (The "Questions" section for the original series episodes are flat-out hysterical). So, in other words, your list of "things to think about" is miles beyond where I am, with only a surface view of each episode (or maybe a little more, since I like to think of myself as a reasonably smart and attentive viewer), and the puzzle still unfinished, so to speak, since I'm not at the end yet. As such, I'll put off wondering where the story's going to go and what questions it will answer or not answer, and just let everything unfold until the end. And then I'll sit back and try to figure out what it all means.

I don't think you're being entirely fair to Macek. He likes Macross. He likes it enough that he tried to get get it brought over by itself direct-to-VHS in '84 (I have that tape. It's weird. Macross music, Robotech voice actors, and for some reason everyone pronounces "Gerwalk" with a soft "G": "Jer-walk"). But he ALSO thought he could "improve" the story...by trimming some things (even in the aforementioned VHS tape, a few scenes are cut for no apparent reason, like Hikaru's biplane daydream in episode 1), and changing some things. Which...well, lets face it. Macross isn't perfect. If any of us were given carte-blanche to go in and tinker around without it, there are things we would change. It all comes down to taste and discretion. My suspicion (wholly speculative) is that the Carl Macek who went in to the Macross project was very different from the Carl Macek that came out the other side, with the completed Robotech. The "original 85" are not terrible. I don't like it, but it's not terrible. But then came the planning for the Sentinels, and Robotech the Movie, and the novels, and the comics... VF5SS bringing up Robotech Art 1 makes a useful marker. I had that book, bought it when it came out. And it made no bones about what Robotech was. I wished it had contained more information about the three original series (it gives a lot of background on the creation of Macross, some on Mospeada, nothing on Southern Cross, and IIRC, they never explain what "Protoculture" ACTUALLY is), but it gave a pretty honest picture about where Robotech came from and what it was. It wasn't until later, when anime started getting brought over here uncut, but HG and others were still trying to coax some cash out of Robotech's name, that everything got really screwy, and layers and layers of added material tried to bond the three "generations" together in ways that were never intended. And even then, Macek himself authorized the Robotech Perfect Collection (two episodes of each original series on each VHS tape, followed by the same two episodes from Robotech). It's a pity that that series was never completed (although the subs over all weren't very good) to become the definitive release of Robotech, because it would've opened a lot of people's eyes. But again, generally, it's the Robotech fans who hail Macek as a visionary, and whether he believes it or not, he kind of plays into that. But to say he hated Macross...that's flatly false. Saying, "Y'know, if THIS had happened here instead of THAT, the show would be a lot better" doesn't mean you hate the show. I Macek's case, it just meant he was trying to SELL it, and didn't have quite enough confidence in the show as it stood. You can fault him for that, you can fault him for working out the Sentinels and Robotech the Movie, but I don't think you can say he hates Macross.

Hmmm...too bad. Because the Cylons ARE interesting, and there is probably an interesting story to be generated from the attack on the Colonies from their viewpoint...oh well. So should I watch before I finish the series, then (to lessen the disappointment) or is it definitely something to be seen after?

I just watched "Disquiet Follows My Soul" (the extended version). Suddenly "The Face of the Enemy" makes a lot more sense, since Gaeta seems all hot and bothered and anti-Cylon now...which he didn't before. Oh, and David Hingtgen was right as well...the reveal of the final Cylon last episode wasn't nearly as jaw-dropping as the second-to-last, third-to-last, fourth-to-last or fifth-to-last. I'm still trying to figure out exactly WHEN all of this is taking place. We I was a kid, watching the old series, I misunderstood the basic premise of the show, and all the Egyptian-style helmets and everything led me to believe that the whole story was happening tens of thousands of years ago...so imagine my surprise when Galactica 1980 started. Whereas this series...well, I'm assuming (big assumption) that the "earth" that they found is our earth (which means that we're all Cylons) but the earth people had Centurions (which we don't have and aren't even close to creating)...which would put the nuclear holocaust well into our future. And then the Galactica arrives 2000 years after that. Which would put the story somewhere around 4500 AD... Meh. It'll probably turn out not to be of the slightest import by the end. And there are too many ifs and variables to try to make a calculation at this point. I know I'm drawing ever closer to the end...and in a way, I don't want it to get to the finish: I'm enjoying the story too much (I have a lot of sympathy with Adama and his "favorite book," which he never finished. Especially when I'm reading something I really like, I'll often rush through most of the book, realize I'm almost done, and spend two weeks reading the last forty or fifty pages). On the other hand, I keep thinking "How much more pain and disappointment can these people take?" and I want it to finish just so their trials will all be over...one way or another. Anyway, I'm going to try to take the last episodes slowly, and savor them. And then I'll probably go back and watch the commentary and the bonus features and all the extra jazz. And at some point, I guess I need to see Caprica and The Plan. According to the Amazon.com reviews, The Plan is more-or-less a clips-show, right? If I go into it with that expectation, do you think I'll like it better than most people seem to...?