Final Vegeta

The main gift of Kawamori is symmetry. You start with spears (love declaration) made imagining mixing the ocean and the wind, then there is the myth of bird-men and fish-men and you end up with pilot Shin and swimmer Mao. The bird-men theirselves were a technologic race which upset with genetic engineering (a virus, transmitted maybe by blood contact like HIV) a primitive race, the fish-men. It's kinda like what is happening in the present of storytime with UN-Spacy upsetting Mayans' style of life (and this involved blood drawings and transfusions). Anyway, Shin, a kind of male principle, is identified as the element of the sky and the wind, while Mao, a kind of female principle, is identified as the element of the ocean and the water. You know, ancients considered sky as another type of water. Shin getting closer to Mao is reinforced by the imagery of swimming birds and flying fishes. You end with an image of two touching worlds so similar and yet so different, not connected and yet longing to lap and comprehend each other, which is an ultimate metaphor for the love between a man and a woman. It's not a chance what mixes together the sky and the ocean is a spear. This absolute poetry of simmetries, metaphors and leitmotivs is what I call "Kawamori 100%". The whole intensity of it int the scene was breath-taking. Macross Plus was the Macross of technology. Macross 7 was the Macross of songs. Macross Zero will be the Macross of love. You may not think it, but it will be that way. This is enforced even by Shin's training, as he must learn to feel his opponent's heart. And it's not like the simmetries end up there. The underwater trip of Shin becomes learning ground for the subsequent action scene. The octopus shows the way Valkyries are thought: like Guld said before first transforming, "Now I'll show YF-21's true abilities". Then there is the scene where Roy tells Shin that pilots who stare at the sea at night will end up swallowed by it. Yeah, I know it's the worst animation of Macross Zero, but Shin actually did get swallowed by the sea, and maybe it won't be the last time. I really like the characters. I think it's unusual for anime this kind of lead character which always lose in the start. Maybe it has to do with the fact that if you don't know how to think story in advance good guys must always win at the end of each episode. But Shin's defeats are really funny, he came from a place where he was the top and now everytime he must swallows his pride. And yet he still has some bite, it's not like he is really helpless. He started depressed and someway nichilistic, but he is growing lifelike. It seems a kind of Kawamori's remark on today situation. Macross Zero shows shots of terrorism, after all. Shin knows he must do something, even if he don't know what to do. Yet he doesn't need to be always sombre and he has to gain a positive attitude to change things. Then there is his relation with Sara. He may like her, but it's not like he agrees on all Sara says. There is a lot of conflict involved in how they grow apart, without Shin wanting it. As a Macross series, Macross Zero seems to question cultural invasion, like Macross Plus questioned songs and technology. The real thing I regret is that up until now there haven't been much on Ivanov. It's not like he was the main villain (this is Nora), but the last OVA seemed to set up something which I hope will be well exploited. As for pacing and direction I found everything else pratically perfect, a sign that Kawamori is great even without 2/3 years of preproduction, although that helps with the script. As for explanations, I think there is a chance they will be done anime-style, that is to say, you guess it. But over-all I consider them minor, and we know a man that can clarify minor trifles in his FAQ. I like the mecha and the CG. As for the CG, I think it would be better if it was CG all time but I understand production costraints, and I actually think cel animation could have been better, yet VF-0's transformation scene shows that Kawamori indeed knows with CG you can't surprise people just by moving objects like with cel animation. As for the mecha, I too actually think SV-51 is kinda ugly fugly, yet I found it cool in the show. What I think as attractive in a mecha are the proportions. A mecha should not have perfectly scaled human proportions, it's not like mechas are humans, so they shouldn't try too much to imitate that. Just don't exagerate the other way and make them look as freaks. The YF-19 is an example, it has big legs and short torso. It is my fav Valkyrie, and it's being tied by the VF-0D Shin type. Anyway, I like even the way VF-0's transformation is subtly different from that of the VF-1. Maybe this wasn't fully justified, but I like it. There is many talking about VF-0 looking more advanced than the VF-1 (it is just looking, not being more advanced. Minus the engines, they are actually equally advanced). This is kinda like a newbie question. Kawamori himself stated that he tried to draw something which looked retro, but he ended up with a plain F-14 which wouldn't have worked as main mecha. So he took the opposite approach, and draw something which looked futuristic, the same way concept cars look more advanced than market cars. It is just because they are prototypes. He did it on purpose, with a kind of justification. Anyway, remember that only absent-minded don't watch appearences, but only superficial don't go further. Then there is the question of magic. Is this word really such lame? Cheap plot devices and deus ex machina are lame, not sense of wonder inducing scenes like in Macross Zero. The trouble is the source, many people didn't understand Macross 7 itself. Chiba explained the source of Basara's power as vibrations born trough the chakras of his body while he sings, so spiritia is simply a wave (like radio waves) which is added to normal sound waves. You may think of it something on the line of gravitrons, noone has found them yet gravity works, and if you go inside a cave or a gallery you will feel the mass of the mountain over your head. The same way you can think of spiritions, which are the tiny bright green spots, and the effects a song can have (even basic, like cheering up when you're afraid). This is not to say spiritia science exists, but saying it's magic is like saying a submarine can swim. Furthermore, it seems what happened in Macross Zero was dued to AFOS and hidden ancient technology whose limits are still unknown, and evidently more than just making faster planes or building better humans than you. Since this thread talks also about fans, I''ll say I sincerely despise the fan's attitude of neglected sons, the kind of people who, when they like a show, the only thing they want is the same show just bigger, and then they want the same show again, just bigger than the last time, and with twice the guns. Whether a person likes Macross Zero or not it's up to him, and I can agree it's not totally perfect, but bashing it without being objective is ridicolous. FV

I didn't mean to sound harsh, it's not like I meant they wouldn't be marketable. But I don't think they will make that big hit, either. I can agree, but now you are talking apples and oranges. We were specifically talking about mecha shows. You could claim mecha shows aren't big card game sellers like Yugioh and Pokemon, and you would be right, but what would that mean? Case example: G Gundam. Its toys and the show were popular. Older crowd maybe didn't like it and didn't aknowledged it as Gundam, but it had its success. Why? Gundam knew from long time an important lesson: children are your future. The real trick is making both children and grown-ups like it. Doraemon is liked by children, and maybe followed by elderly, but teens ignore it, like they ignored G Gundam. And btw Doraemon is several HUNDRED episodes long: is there a show marketed to older crowd that can top it? Another istance: Harry Potter. Very popular, I think not only in the West. Why? Its primary target was children, but it can be read even by grown-ups. I feel is more children aimed than grown-ups aimed, but I like it, even if I think the characters are lame. Now, you can do a mecha show that is more grown-ups than children, something with more technical stuff and the like. But if you plan to make a long series, to whom would you aimed it? Gundam knew the answer. Children must like the mecha, but older fans too. It's a tight balance, which sometimes tips rather obviously. At the same time, airing violence on TV usually creates troubles with parents. This is another hint. Harry Potter can also teach you another lesson: your public will grow. You must follow it. Thus Shin Getter Robot and Mazinkaiser shows weren't aimed to children, but to grown up long time fans. That's the trouble with Gundam today, it has a lot of long time fans yet it aspire to appeal to fresh fans. You can't just show old Gundam series to children, they'll probably dismiss it. I believe some tastes are culturally acquired. Case istance, Macross 7. Why Americans didn't like it and why it became a hit in Japan? Why Americans bother every time talking about Fire Valkyrie's face plate? Maybe one of the reasons destroids didn't gain an own show is that Japanese know something we don't. Was there ever a show with mechas similar to destroids? And how many people remember it? And when you talk about "plausible machines", that doesn't really mean anything. Every machine is plausible in its universe. If you talk about general plausibility, you are quoting only Real Robot or the like. What do you think about Mazinger or Getter Robot? They are the most famous robots besides Gundams, Valkyries and Evangelions. What do you think about a robot that can slice a planet, or create a cyclone in space? I don't think plausibility is what most people want. Gundam Wing was even incoherent, in that almost always gundams were invulnerable, but sometimes they could be damaged. Anyway, in Japan the most popular type of mecha is Gundam. Gundam won hands down there. Japaneses seem to favour techno-samurai with big thundering sticks. Good is the opposite of bad, niche is (kinda) the opposite of popular, maybe it's better to say mainstream. They aren't the same thing. I thought niche as a show that maybe can be considered by some people good to very good yet what most people hear of it doesn't turn them excited about. Well, there are different kinds of violence. In fact it's the higher extremes that make shows niche. But then, I agree violence it's not totally a deciding factor. The appearance of mecha is one, that's way people talk more about 0083 than Turn A. It's not like kids don't like violence. I remember watching Hokuto no Ken and similar shows when I was a children, although today parents seem more active in patrolling what the children watch. Anime can cause some hysteria. In Japan what can or cannot be aired on TV changes from time to time. I was surprised hearing Cowboy Bebop got cut of half series when aired on WOWOW, but that's what Japaneses think as violent. Man on man is thinked more violent than robot on robot. Indeed, violence in anime is often shown as transfered. It's a damaged robot, not a hurt man. The violence itself is shown within several levels of "realism". Sometimes there is simply some flying blood and some red lines, sometimes the blood is really fluid and abundant and stain the place, sometimes they shown the inside of the flesh and the body is deformed. DBZ for istance is less violent than what you could think. Even when bellies are pierced by a punch, the inside is simply red or black. For a fighting anime, that's the kind of violence you get. You can still show it to children (that was the target), so DBZ became popular. You can claim (and be right) it hadn't aything besides action (well, at first it had parodic elements), but there had been many other titles action-based, and those are not as famous as Dragon Ball. One of anime curious traits is the ability to minimize great violence or exagerate lessen violence. At first this seems to be done to prevent complaints from parents and yet offer something "interesting" to fans. Maybe there can be something more. If you take iconic girls like Rei Ayanami who are become very popular, they can lose blood yet they don't have wounds. This maybe is tied to cultural inferences I can't understand. Japaneses are inclined to graphical depiction, so sometimes the graphical depiction took the lead on the meaning of the scene. A lot of people get shot in Noir, yet there is no blood. Is it so violent a show? Anyway, for what I was trying to say, I'll quote Z Gundam as example. It was a show so dark for its times it was ignored. Then again, the tide is turning, now Japaneses became nichilist and Z Gundam is popular. At the same time, I haven't heard someone trying to imitate it. In current times, even girls are become a market, so recent shows are blending shonen with shojo and shojo with shonen. By not doing it, you'll end up niche again. Yet shonen is still favoured: shonen animes can have bishonen boy band too. I think that's because they weren't really violent. Compare the first two episodes of Evangelion with ep 18. The first episodes are what I call exageration. Over-all little blood and IIRC it wasn't red, lot of thrashing yet little specific hurting. Parents complained about later episodes, not the firsts. The first episodes of a series indeed usually must give some "eye-candy" to the watchers. They are usually more serious than what follows. The problem arouses if the first episodes start as a real mess. You can lessen it a bit, but there will be some consistence. Thinking of Eva, once I've read about a guy, it must be a Japanese, who watched the series and really liked it. His aunt or not very young relative liked it also. Then he heard about the movie The End of Evangelion, and became really excited about it. He watched it and he became both disgusted and embarassed, because he felt his aunt shouldn't see it because he knows she won't like it, and yet he couldn't explain her why. I thought that was exactly what Basara did, he hopped in an Excalibur Anyway, you'll miss a lot of poetry. It's like Shin telling Mao she is like a fish-girl, and Mao replying Shin is like the hippo-man of legends Besides, a transforming mecha in the way a Valkyrie is done keeps the action various. There is some plane action and some robot action. It can be liked both by planes' and robots' fans. Variety of public helps against becoming niche. It is a difficult conversation, I am sorry if I didn't keep it focused. FV

I first saw the show as Robotech, and I thought the VF-1 landing in GERWALK was the coolest thing ever. Then years later I fell in love with Escaflowne, and I learnt the author was the same. FV

What is wrong? 1 Kids are a primary market in Japan 2 Japanese kids like mostly big robots. Commercially, how profitable in toys were Votoms, Patlabor or Escaflowne? Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but the original Gundam wasn't allowed to be less tall than 18m. 3 While Americans grew fond of mechs (which were derivative of Macross' destroids), Japanese like sleeker mechas highly anthropomorphic. Most Japanese mechas are Super Robots, and usually Super Robots have faces and cheesy features. 4 Were Yukikaze and the like really mainstream? That's not to be said the story can't be good and someone can't think it has the best mecha ever, but business-wise I don't think it would that profitable. And if you start with too many violence it may end up getting nicher (less problem if you get violent in the later half, people already addicted will still follow the series). FV

I think the real reason is that he designs mostly the Valkyries, the destroids are Miyatake's (although Kawamori could design destroids too). Anyway, that reason would be good, too. FV

You know the VF-11, it doesn't even have internal missile bays. Maybe for the first time in history militaries thought missiles and combat beyond visual range were becoming useless. J/K FV

Macross isn't a series about power, is a series about mad piloting skillz. It's more than likely that destroids will appear again, but there are reason why they will never be the star. At least if the enemies don't go for an orbital bombing. Anyway, most of anime combat is close combat, and long range weapons have their limits. What about fighting in a city? Japanese kids won't like them, and military maniacs are kinda niche. Besides, people never liked anything resembling too close a tank, but grew fond of planes and ships. FV

Namely, these advantages blur a bit when the fighter can do the same things of the tank. Destroids are already heavier than Valkyries, after all. Destroids don't have the same power generator of the Valkyries. That's why they are cheaper. As fort the weapons, I have the impression Macross weapons are battery powered. Anyway, I think destroids stayed simply because you can't train anyone piloting a plane. FV

Sci-fi used biblical referencies some ten of years before anime got stuck with it. The Valis trilogy (which isn't really a trilogy) of Philip Dick comes to my mind, also because they weren't just thrown in, but they were true to their original meaning. I've also heard they appear in a series called "Jarod the pretender". Btw, the name's Hasford: http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/h/hasford/index.html FV

I once saw in MW the instructions booklet of Valkyrie models, it was Wave's. The credited designer for VF-19Kai is "Kazutaka Miyatake, Shoji Kawamori". VF-17's designer instead was only "Shoji Kawamori". FV

I thought the sketch actually shows how he refined SDP-1 and got the VF-11. FV

I think it bears some resemblance with http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/aircavalry/bg-5c.htm. Kawamori surely is fond of transforming stuff that didn't transform earlier. FV

It's "Sukebe Itano" (Ichiro). FV

The "femdam" Clamp version was better... FV

Actually, where did this happen before Macross? IIRC, the lame pilot always pilots the best robot right from the start. He is the last line of defense, so he must not be topped by someone else. FV

I think this was meant as an inverted feedback from the pilot. Since Guld was hurt, the 21 was somehow weaker. I think that was the appearance authors wanted to give to the scene. Anyway, the 19 should have stronger engines than the 21, this should be a fact. With an armor energy based, the failing of Guld proper controlling it resulting in the loss of an arm should be likely explained. FV

Did you ever play VF-X2? The VB-6 is actually so slow I beat it just circling around it. I was very close to him, but it never saw me. FV

This is one thing I've never understood. It's clearly visible on the second episode of the series that evas are organic, yet Eva fans dubbed it a great secret. The manga was even obscene on how clear it was the whole mother thing... FV

All VF-19s should have it. I am not sure with the VF-19P, though. FV

Yes, but most of the times peoples remain fond of the show they saw first (and usually they start watching animes as children, but not always). For istance, in these same pages someone has said that he watched Gundam Wing as his first Gundam and he still like it today after having seen all other Gundams. I didn't say they stopped watching robot animes, just their first fav is usually obvious. FV

Because Guld was half Zentradi, and General Galaxy was founded by Zents. I think this is called "patronizing". FV

Gundam is... meeting new peoples, sharing with them a strong empathy up to love, and killing them Anyway, a quick guide to recognize when a character dies: A minor character dies when he sudden gains a larger role, is developed or talks more than the usual (especially to the main character). He will be remembered only in the following episode, and then never more. This is the basic anime law. I think it was invented because it is simple to insert in the plot wherever you wish, since it doesn't affect that much the story. A variant is that the character is introduced and dies in the same episode. Gunbuster maybe chose it the most right way to do it. Gundam 0079 did it 4 times, Macross 7 twice, Nadia once, just to quote a few example. You didn't specify however how many Gundams exist and what are the proportions between all Gundams and the ones you quote (hint: a drop in the ocean) I am not an expert of Gundam, but it seems that in many shows of Gundam there is a huge energy cannon which I think I could call "flashy" other than "freudian", and maybe even "lame" (since the beam is misproportioned to the MS). Anyway, if you need "flashy", there are still model variations, which took the MSs you quote and added them a few shoulder cannons and some bazookas. By contrast, there were flashy Macross variations like SDP-1, armored gerwalk and Macross II's mechas, but in animation the only real flashy Valkyries were the Sound Force, and that was part of a joke. These are things which are thought afterward. The original color was supposed to be largely white, but the toy maker didn't like it. No matter how you try to justify them, they are still kids' colors. Then I don't see why accultured grown up American otakus can't like Macross 7, which has crap animation, a story and very little violence/shooting :D Violence always leads to over-hype. There's a reason why best stories seem to be the ones were more peoples have died. A quote from Bart Simpson comes to my mind: "Trying to depress teens is like shooting fishes in a barrel" (or something like that) You are saying that like Wing wasn't succesful in Japan. I think Wing was supposed from the beginning to be sold to US market (G Gundam started AC series, but I don't think it was supposed to be sold outside Japan), and you could say it reached its purpose. I think it still sucks, nevertheless, but it's not like "dumbness" (if that really is liking a series which another found awful) is an American feature. Mostly only people who watched them as children do like them when they are grown up. That's why in Italy they are remembered so fondly. In America they aired Robotech so they have Macross. Do not understimate imprinting. Now, if Bandai can grab children with SD Gundams, maybe there's a chance they will remember Gundam when they grow up so they could try UC series. Anyway, peoples usually like everything that can kill many livings beings in an atrocious way, no matter how silly they look. Peoples complain about Sound Force's Valkyries, but they didn't have seen the worst. FV

You are making it sound like Robotech's protoculture... FV

It was the final boss in Digital Mission VF-X, and showed up again in VF-X2. FV

You mean "aim at the 6"? After all, "chiverly" is just a nice word which somehow got associated with "fair play" FV