Final Vegeta

New logical expansion of my theory: The VA-3C had something called "Moris diverting expanding pair" or whatever. Assuming "pair" is related to matter and antimatter, as in Macross' thermonuclear reactors, I think "Morris" could be a mis-translation of "Maurice". Searching for Maurice and antimatter I found that the discoverer of antimatter was called "Paul Adrien Maurice Dirac". Maybe with Moris and antimatter you could find info about some another scientist related to antimatter, but I think Dirac is enough. EDIT: No, now that I watched my Macross Design Works, I saw it's "mori's", not "moris", and "spare", not "pair". It's a spare harpoon. It's such a disappointment... FV

But only anime could think matching the technology of FTL travels with that of a super energy cannon. Yup. Maybe I was the first here to find AnimEigo's site with Macross' linear notes Message-ID: <ugs99u0lsolj7jra7e8joq6kpce14kbbje@4ax.com> 17 March 2002, more than two years ago But AFAIK in Star Trek alien spaceships don't have toilets This is the proof of the lack of relations between Macross and Star Trek, really I like thinking of the Macross's ones like Philip Dick's homeostatic machines But all the turbines are before the fusion reactor, plasma is expelled magnetically. Visual of the turbines from behind is impaired. You can see this from the schematics of the VF-1. I think we can't go on without pics, so I'll paste one. I am not sure the thing below the main compressor was not supposed to spin, though, but I trust the power of plasma. No, WAIT! I think you were supposed to point out some scientific sites about nuke effects proving your assertions Near the Earth plasma can be found in the form of solar wind, magnetosphere and ionosphere. I should check better, though. Anyway, "cooling" obviously means one of the two possible methods of getting rid of excessive heat in space: rubbing against something (possible, but very unlikely in space) or emetting IR waves. I even knew that plasma found in stars is mildly hot compared to that inside a fusion reactor, because since we can't use massive pressure due to gravity like stars do, we increase heat (actually, cold fusion is possible, but the theory is not still affirmed enough). But I admit this has nothing to do with radar. The only thing I thought is that concealing a nuclear reactor in space is troublesome. Right where I wanted you. What are these particles, exactly? Electrons? Protons? In nature there aren't many particle types you can choose from (physics often sounds like a mystic thing with particles sprouting everywhere, but it's not). Stripping a proton of its electron is called "ionization". When someone is talking about "particlized" matter, usually he means plasma (I don't really know if other options can be real, but I doubt the extents of my physics knowledge). If there is one thing we can be absolutely sure, is that authors for Macross TV didn't know any scientific or sci-fi theories following 1982. So far, no spaceship was nuked. Your supposition about radar disturbing confetti is very well reasoned, but authors surely only thinked of standard known nuke effects. Now I'll point out a scientific site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowland...project155.html Electromagnetic Effects (of nuclear weapons) The high temperatures and energetic radiation produced by nuclear explosions also produce large amounts of ionized (electrically charged) matter which is present immediately after the explosion. Under the right conditions, intense currents and electromagnetic fields can be produced, generically called EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse), that are felt at long distances. Living organisms are impervious to these effects, but electrical and electronic equipment can be temporarily or permanently disabled by them. Ionized gases can also block short wavelength radio and radar signals (fireball blackout) for extended periods. Ionized gas is just another word for plasma. Real world istance: for a couple of minutes during reentry, the base loses radio communication and radio tracking with the shuttle. Did you know it? I will tell you this is still the usual plasma magic, but thinking for a moment you could determine it. Btw, I have even heard plasma stealth could actually reduce atmospheric drag, even if maybe it's just a rumour spred from Russia. Here they talk about Mach 50, though. And mind the "magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) propulsion". Where have I heard it before? This site also mention some neat informations about space combat: http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2004/04/SpaceNavies2.shtml It is actually sprayed out the exhaust, like I believe, and is. No turbines after the thermonuclear reactor whatsoever. Maybe authors knew something you don't. I never said active stealth system worked on plasma stealth principle. We (I too) got side-tracked during this debate, and the fact I am replying after a month doesn't help (well, I was helped. I discovered a lot of new things and changed my minds on others), but this thing now can end. I don't know if it is needed, but just in case I will give you a brief (maybe actually not so brief) lecture of physics: Photons are the "vehicle" of electromagnetic waves, therefore ALL electromagnetic waves travel at light speed, whether they are actually mentioned as "light" or not. The difference is not in speed, but in frequency. From lowest to highest energy wave, the electromagnetic spectrum is: radio waves, microwaves, IR, visible light, UV, X-rays, gamma rays. The atmosphere though impairs almost every EM waves except radio and visible light, so we use these mostly. In another thread someone said X-rays weapons are technically lasers. This is true, because both X-rays and light are made of photons. I am sure you remember YF-21's avionics and flying controls check-up. It's a neat scene because YF-21's technology looks weird doing the same things all planes do, at least for flying controls (in Macross there is basically the same scene with VF-1 and F-14. Actually, Macross Zero's angle shots were recycled). Anyway, there was a scene where YF-21's sensors "watch" a technician over the nose. First there is TV vision, then there is radar vision, then IR vision. This is just another proof Valkyries use a lot of IR sensors. Nevertheless, the radar vision looked a lot like an X-ray photograph. This is natural, because X-rays are EM waves like radio waves, so they behave almost in the same way. Radar is short for RAdio Detection And Ranging. Most radars use radio waves, but you can possibly do a radar device with all EM waves, including visibile light (they are called "ladar" or "lidar", basing on your choice of the word laser over light). I think results may be different, though, because of the frequency used. Now, Valkyrie's active stealth surely disrupts radio waves, like ionized gases do. Very likely it disrupts even microwaves. I think it goes as far as disrupting slightly even IR waves, so IR signature of plasma exhausts (or at least nuclear engines') is kinda reduced. I think this is what Compendium means when it says some Valkyrie has an active stealth more powerful than others. The power output difference is how it can affect IR waves. Maybe next generation Valkyries will be able to affect even visible light, becoming quite invisible. Trust me, OT could be really able to do it. It is THAT powerful. After thinking this maybe laser coating was not really needed. It was a supposition, I've changed my mind. Now, let's end the debate with the crystal clear point of question: what type of guidance did Guld's micro-missiles unleashed on Isamu have? This is what we were debating. My answer: assuming Macross' authors knew physics, surely it can't be radar because plasma exhausts easily disrupt radio waves, so a VF's six is totally radar stealth (with the possible exception of Macross Zero's VFs). My bet is on IR guidance, since Macross Zero's micro-missiles have it, and they are well likely having kept that (btw, small missiles probably don't have any active stealth, while maybe huge missiles need it). What is your answer on the point? My other theory I developed, which I think now proved enough for myself, is that you don't exactly know how Valkyries reactors work. The main proof is the fact you talked about "fusion generator". You don't have read Compendium lately (btw, NOW COMPENDIUM UPDATES ARE BACK! YESSS!!!). This energy source is NOT nuclear fusion. Two words. Pair. Annihilation. Is it me or this thing remembers another two words? Anti. Matter. We didn't have the grasp of how OT is advanced. Well, now we do. Once we started talking about anti-matter powered jets we can say everything. It's a sci-fi theory, and he knew it. It's not true, but it's kinda grounded. Real world physics too invented lot of useless and not totally founded particles like bosons or gluons to understand the universe Minowsky particles are just a weird explanation for plasma radio disrupting effects. Anyway, Minowsky particles help Gundam's reactors going on, so you need a powerful generator to scatter them, like the ones found in spaceships or mobil armor. Scattering Minowsky particles to produce plasma-like effects is a deliberate act. This is why it's not said Minowsky particles can't exist in Macross. It is just nobody has still exploited them (and actually, Macross has alternative ways) I thought you already knew it, and I was right Have you ever read Alan Moore's works? He like estrapolating characters from various sources and collecting them in a single comics (ie: League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, or Watchmen). I haven't actually read him, but that is what they told me. Narratively, it is indeed possible, and you can also remain faithful to originals if you are good Active stealth is canon, as you pointed out. Official words about how it works has not yet reached my ears, though This is right, but it lasted only few seconds. They could cut something else. But if anime Yamato were destroyed in a movie, that doesn't mean Yamato was really destroyed at all in the sequels Continuity is kinda troublesome: how was Isamu injured? But I am just kidding. We do not exactly know what active stealth affects, so we do not know what Isamu meant with "neat trick". I portend YF-21's active stealth largely affects even IR. So, here we come with theories: either active stealth is so common (actually, it is) that Isamu in the "real" timeline of the movie wasn't really amazed by YF-21's active stealth, so the OVAs inserted a "fake" scene or Isamu was following the YF-21 on its sensors, and then Guld turned on the active stealth and it disappeared totally for the antiquated sensors of VF-11, without even the possibility of a IR backup. The latter may be the right answer. I know, but if you look even YF-19 has active stealth system. So how came radar guided missiles could detect it? Anyway, I admit I was wrong on the plane guns thing. My military knowledge fail me another time I should have guessed better, since Yamato has a strong WWII overtone. As for the 55 mm caliber... now that I have watched Compendium, I think I read it on Nanashi, so it should be Studio MAT's stat. Nobody said beams, though However, over-all I think military knowledge, more than the lack of it, impairs total understanding of Macross. This is also a proof authors did a good work FV

New Studio Nue workers can't count There are actually 4 or 5 Phalanx CIWS? Anyway, I would love to see that OT beam cannon... maybe it's a mini Macross cannon? FV

About the debate on what a photon is, I suggest this site: Wave Theory of the Field I won't say I've read and understood all of it, but I kinda agree with author's philosophy. Anyway, Galilei and Hawking were wrong (sorry, no Black Holes, Big Bang or whatever) As for the photon, I think that even without mass it could carry some kinetic energy. After all, E = mc^2, energy and mass are related. Btw, according to that theory in Storm Attacker mode a Macross class ship would actually be able to travel faster than in Battle Fortress mode FV

AFAIK, the mecha design was done by Studio Nue (meaning Miyatake, I think), even in novel's illustrations. FV

I think there is a mini radar dome behind the head of the VF-1J. I think it was meant to be used while donning GBP armor, which covered the nose. FV

In that way, Gunbuster was meant to be "Macross-ish", which is something similar but also different in being a parody or a homage. Btw, the design sucks. FV

Really? I knew he had some involvement in Varuta Valkyries, VF-22 and VF-19Kai (and Zero's birdmen), I didn't know he went as far. FV

Battroids and Fighters are not strictly related with Kawamori... I can't see a complete transformation. I feel like the swords were supposed to morph into wings. Aegis, for me the SV-51 Battroid came from proto-Elgerzorene. Cone head, small forearm shields, crotch and all. Macross 7 Elegerzorene also gave SV-51 its purple/yellow colour scheme. Air Chronicles, if you didn't see it FV

Maybe there is a misunderstanding, I am not talking about plagiarizing or anything, if that is what you fear. Studio Nue created scientific references for both Yamato and Gundam. They inserted them in Macross as they inserted theirselves as characters in the story. Shoo Blackstone (director of Minmay's movie) = Noburo Ishiguro (alternative reading/translation) and so on. Did you read AnimeIgo's liner notes? Knowing what they are capable of, I would not be surprised if most of stats had a meaning behind. Fanboys seem to have some misconceptions about anime, like thinking the author does everything aside from chara, mecha, animation and music, and also thinking the peoples who worked in a franchise can't have worked in other franchises (except when they are "authors", then they are free to do as they want. The bulk are still family slaves traded in bundle with the franchise; every time there is a new series in the franchise they must work on it). I am free from such misconceptions. And I am not turning this into a VS. Well, I can't say I was without faults in that department, but I am turning this into a thread about how Macross came to be that way. Logic says you can't know a person if you don't know where it came from. Japaneses can only hint at best. They are born with a facial paresis, so they developed such typical Japanese themes like not being able to express own emotions. I came to know there is a textbook for learning Japanese which is called "Do you have a bag?". That was how a Japanese waiter once tried to warn his customer about a thief. Japaneses don't tell you things so easily. They have a passion for subtlety. So, simplest answer can be right, but simplifying typical Japanese subtlety ignoring all of it is wrong. In Macross there is a Ionesco city and not a Minowsky city because naming a city over Minowsky would have been gross, wouldn't? For stating mecha power output they used PS, BHP, GGv... why not even once kW? Here come the references. Do you actually have a grasp of how many references there are in Macross? Macross is kinda a "reference anime", like Fushigi no Umi no Nadia or Shinseiki Evangelion (Gainax learned all from Macross). They are packed full of references, but they have also something on their own. Maybe you don't know the references, that's why you think I said the things I said. Maybe you don't know Breast Fighter in katakana is only slightly different from Mazinger Breast Fire's spelling. You don't know half of the things I know, and I discover new details everyday. The city inside Macross was an original Studio Nue's idea for Ulysses 31 (refused by Ulysses 31's sponsor, though), but refugees inside a ship reference Gundam (whenever I talk about Gundam in this post I mean only 0079 and RX-78, obviously), although in Gundam they didn't stay inside the ship for long. The idea was Studio Nue original, but it was portrayed in a way which made it a reference. This is how Macross' references are done. Kinda like the VF-17s in the opening of Macross 7 which perform a Dom-like Jet Stream, but in the actual anime they never did that thing, a tongue-in-cheek. And then obviously there are several nods to Yamato and Gundam. Contrary to what someone thinks, most Mobil Suits don't actually spread Minowsky particles. Only spaceships and Mobil Armors can do it. The Quel-Quallie as seen in "Miss Macross", being able to jam both radar and radio, was a perfect Mobil Armor. Yes, Macross has even laser communications to counter that, and that was the mocking nod. At first I thought most of SDF-1's stats were based on Yamato, but SDF-1 looked like Yamato only in the earlier sketches. With the main cannon open it now looks more like the White Base. Now, I took from mahq the stats of White Base. White Base: 2-barrel 580mm main gun (in the front between the two hangars) SDF-1: Macross Cannon (converging beam weapons need two barrels) White Base: 2 x 2-barrel mega particle gun (these came out from the round shields in the sides IIRC) SDF-1: 4 high speed 178-cm-diameter electro magnetic rail cannons (they are in the sides) White Base: 8 x anti-aircraft 2-barrel machinegun SDF-1: 8 Overtechnology guided converging beam cannon system Can you see the pattern? Every projectile based gun turned into an energy weapon, and vice versa. Pick the Gundam and the Valkyrie and the same is true even for them. Beam Rifle -> Gunpod, Vulcans -> head lasers. Still not convinced? Let's throw in Yamato. Look here. Scroll down a bit The Cosmo Tiger MkI in Macross became the ghost QF-3000. It is that obvious to me. It has three muzzles on each side. Notice: Cosmo Tiger has lasers, the ghost has 55 mm guns. What real world fighter has ever had 6 guns? Are you convinced now? The Cosmo Tiger MkII in Macross became a VF-1. Notice, it can have an anti-aircraft turret on the top. In Macross it was on the bottom. I think I misinterpreted missile and laser complement on Valkyrie, it was related more likely to be related to Yamato than to Gundam. Anyway, the muzzle area of a 580 mm gun (White Base) is 2640,74 cm^2. The muzzle area of a 178 cm gun (Macross) is 24871,94 cm^2. Notice, is nearly ten times. Not over ten times, a bit less out of respect. It was the same for Valkyrie's power output compared to Gundam's. But I can understand tricky math is dubious. I am still working on the details after all, maybe I will find there is no real correlation. Notice however that what was White Base's main weapon it became a secondary weapon for the SDF-1 compared to Macross Cannon, and what was Yamato's main weapon became a secondary weapon for the SDF-1 compared to Omni-directional Barrier. It's even funny how the aircraft carrier (Yamato/Prometheus) and the robot carrier (White Base/Daedalus) became the arms of the SDF-1. Some times ago I told you the Compendium says Valkyries were built on Apollo lunar base and space colonies. That was exactly where Gundam was built. VF-1 and RX-78 are kinda like lost brothers, and the same is true for SDF-1 and Yamato. Yamato's Wave Motion Gun fires tachyons, time particles. Macross' Macross Cannon fires superdimensional energy, and the Compendium said in the fallacies kanji "superdimensional" means "exceeding space and time". I've read the Yamato could fire its Wave Motion from near Earth orbit and just about hit the surface of the Moon with it's effects. In the first Macross episode the Macross destroyed two ships entering lunar orbit. Yamato has an onboard spare parts factory. Macross onboard could build a third Monster and develop the Phalanx. Yamato has FTL travels (using tachyon engine) and Macross has Fold. Yamato has anti-missile missiles and anti-missile screen gun and Macross has PinPoint Barrier (which was used to stop missiles a lot, more than energy blasts). Yamato has reflector force-field and Macross has Omni-directional Barrier. Yamato has asteroid polarity shield and Macross... well, did you know Macross once had something called "Asteroid Cracker"? IIRC, it was Daedalus Attack's former name. Yamato has sub-space "sonar and in Macross they could detect folding and defolding reactions. Now I have even changed my mind. It is indeed possible Cyclops was thought in 1982. I have a theory for this, which is a supposition like laser coating. Superdimensional energy should be the energy found in the fold sub-universe, that's my theory. Folding and defolding could create waves or the like in this energy which are what is detected. Based on this theory, the Cyclops could detect objects which have once folded, have a fold engine or something like that. Then, in Macross 7 (there is something said in the movie as well) Chiba once talked about superdimensional energy in a context which was related to spiritia, so I think spiritia is a kind of superdimensional energy, not necessarily the one of fold sub-universe. Sara's singing stirred waves in that energy, and that's why Cyclops tracked her. What is funny is that "superdimensional" (as in the energy used by Macross Cannon) was in fact a makeshift, because the original title was "Super Dreadnought Fortress", but the kanji "dokyu" print was not widely diffused, and there were a lot of mistypes, so at the end they changed it. Notice though that initials have always been the same of Self Defence Forces. And I've even heard there was a Japanese politician called Kaifun, but I know nothing about him, although I am sure he had some role regarding SDF. Anyway, Macross can do all the things Yamato and Gundam can do. They have a different name, and work in different ways (you could even say improved), but they are all in-jokes. Macross obviously chose to conceal them because they were like easter eggs, but they are there. I think I will ask it to Egan Loo, praying for his good health. As for the other matter, I openly admit I was wrong on the AWG thing, but I confirm I have no real knowledge of military world. As for the HUD, I thought it was simply an interface not really connected to an underlying implementation, that is it could be as fancy as it wanted but the radar worked on the same principles, although improved. Mr March, you started saying Valkyries' radar has Cyclops here and there, then you said Cyclops wasn't meant to track Valyries ("Sh*t! Why does it keep pointing 500 km on my left, and underwater also?"), then you said again SV-51 was tracked for a reason called Cyclops enhancement. I can't follow you anymore. Do you really want the simplest answer? FLIR. Forward Looking Infra-Red sensors. They see the most notable heat sources and paint a circle in the HUD in those positions. Since they are two they could even calculate ranges like with stereo vision. Anyway, if you use active radar this would give away your position, active stealth or not, so FLIRs are better. I also admit I didn't know radar watch all the way through the engines, though this is Macross so I am still right. Try to think with the POV of Guld's missiles: if you peep you won't see a turbine, the only thing you will see is a nuclear reaction, which is really scary for a radar (do you remember Macross' first episodes?). Plasma is not really radar friendly. Have you ever heard of plasma stealth? Try Google I talked of Minowsky particles theory to a guy with a degree in Physics, and he said the effects are the same of hyper-compressed plasma, even the fusion into mega-particles comes from that phenomenon. He congratulated with the one who thinked the whole theory for its coherence (take this, JBO ). And there is no proof Minowsky particles don't exist in Macross universe either, given Ionesco City. JBO, you are mean, I should sing you a song P.S.: to give some more food for your mind, have you noticed how in the movie they didn't even mention once how YF-21 was that stealth? They even cut the "neat trick" scene. FV

Not very likely, the Macross Cannon fires superdimensional energy, and that requires a superdimensional ship FV

Actually, no. Maybe I miswrote it. I said it was a guidance system for missiles. True, but radar don't mind engines being on or off. When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have fallen because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model. The model had no engines, the bird either. According to what my Italian Macross DVD edition booklet says, Studio Nue invented them. They were a Matsutaki's idea. That's the connection with Macross. FV

I am sorry if I have annoyed folks here. I don't know the point anymore, so I'll quit after this. My thought is Kawamori was not lame enough to create a radar which simply overcame Minowsky particles. He just exploited gaps in Minowsky particles defence. The next logical step was: if the VF-0 is able to detect SV-51, its missiles would be able to do that thing as well, wouldn't? Why shouldn't they use the same system if it works? Now, what does guide those micromissiles? Compendium helps again. SV-51: 18 Turopov SA-19M I/IR-guided micro-missiles VF-0: twenty-four Raytheon Erlikon GH-30B I/IR-guided micro-missiles VF-0 could use even I/ALH guided missiles, which is a laser based guidance AFAIK. I will introduce even Macross Plus in this disputation. You surely know the famous scene where Guld unleashes all his missiles on Isamu. Isamu turned off his engines and launched some flares. Why did this thing work? Because those missiles were heat-seekers. Turning off engines does not affect any other kinds of radar guidance system, AFAIK. My thought is that most of Macross weapons don't rely on radar, and Valkyries are the same. Why was VF-0 able to track SV-51? Maybe because Roy could see it and designate it as a target with his eye-trackers. When Roy emerged after being buried by rocks, he couldn't detect Ivanov anymore. Valkyrie's detecting devices have limits; of course they don't have them if their opponent is a normal fighter, but I believe a typical OT mecha engagement is not BVR. The Cyclops may not be technologically compatible with standard radar, meaning they work on different principles, thus not being integrated. And it was not used as a radar backup during combat either, so I don't think standard Macross radars are enhanced with Cyclops. Likely to be OT, but not Cyclops enhanced. The funny thing is that if Anti-UN managed to get its hand on the AFOS, UN-Spacy would use the Cyclops to follow them everywhere on the planet Then there is a last new thing partly unrelated: Nanashi talked about Valkyries having laser coating. I believe this could true and official. Reasons? I've heard some real world weapon use a laser to light a target producing a little spot on the target with a characteristical heat signature of a particular frequency not to be mistaken from other signatures. The missile is instructed to search that specific IR signature. Now, I've also heard Minowsky particles block affect even IR, though not blocking them entirely. I think this was supposed to defeat that guidance system. A Valkyrie's active stealth is supposed to block only radar, though, but if you'd have a laser coating, you could still prevent enemy from lighting you with a low level laser. Also, it could be useful for other things. I am no military geek, I came to know these things because I was interested in Macross and I made some connections, but I could easily be proven wrong. Mine was just a thought. FV

That was kinda my thought, but Macross Zero stated all Valkyries have always had active stealth from the beginning. Probably there are more kinds of active stealth system, like one to reduce even IR signature. Then again, I don't think active stealth was thought as a complex concept: the SV-51'AS had a stronger power output than that VF-0's. Quality of the device determines who is stealthier than who. That simple. Another thought: active stealth perhaps may work even in Battroid. Or maybe ECA in Battroid is a substitute for active stealth in Fighter (they both require some power). If you are walking in a city radar should be blocked by buildings, so you don't need it, and the same for your enemy. Tanks don't have radar AFAIK. I think for the Regults it was the same, on Earth they took ECA, in space they took AS, thus Roy' words about automatic tracking systems becoming useless now that he was fighting in space. Is it me or Valhalla III looks like a Zentradi ship when in stealth mode? Zentradi design = very stealthy. FV

I do agree with Agent ONE the show seems rather kiddish. This may be confirmed in the show, among other signs, by little children occasionally meeting with main characters, like Mylene's fan and Pedro in the movie. It must be also said that there is some sexual inference (although with no nudity, aside from the endings) which may not look mature but definitively it's not kiddish. Also OVA Dynamite has some disturbing scenes, so this is a proof not all Macross 7's fans were supposed to be kids. (This reminds me a guy talking about Panda Z: "Is it for children? The why the references? Is it for adults? Then why is it for children?". Supposedly, some animes are done that way) Some things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous though, like the co-marketing (now that I think better of it, ALL things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous). The lack of violence is not really sign of kiddieness, just that at the time in Japan little violence was allowed to be aired. What 1994's violent TV series are you talking about, Agent ONE? Gundam Wing? I make a counter-example with Noir: lots of people got shot but they don't bleed. Even manga stories are always toned down in anime. Overtones of peace, as opposed to realities of confilct and conflict resolution That was supposed to have some meaning behind, besides overtones of peace were everywhere in SDF Macross, you are blind if you didn't see them. One main character rebels against parent-like authority and is glorified by it, this is an overtone used for many shows for 8-12 year olds In Japan fathers are a distant figure, they work all day so they don't have time to know their sons. Entire Japanese generations have always complained about weak parental guidance. At the end fathers are not well liked, and most characters in anime are orphan. Notice: both Hikaru and Myung's fathers were dead. We don't have seen the father of any Macross lead character so far. Kawamori clearly has troubles with his parents, too, but quoting an Italian comedian's line: "when an actor doesn't have any gifts he puts on stage his own misfortunes", so Kawamori is more gifted than, say, Hideaki Anno. But assuming you were obviously talking about Basara, he doesn't rebel against parent-like authority, but against military. There is a big difference in this if you knew Japan's military history. Other main character is a 15 year old girl who copes with growing up Most of anime characters (especially in TV series) are 15 (even Hikaru was 15 in the series), and in that age they cope with growing up. This is a sponsor-side restraint. Tomino wanted an Amuro with wife and sons in Char's Counterattack, but sponsors refuse it because the character would have looked too old (Max was luckier). Product oriented show Supposed to sell a lot of toys but it ended up selling only a lots of CDs. That's the price of a mecha show which does refuse to sell mechas. Indeed, if you aimed to buy mechas and the seller shows you some CDs while he goes in the back of the shop to pick up the mecha you wanted, that's an unbearable unsubtle commercial. Conclusion: Macross 7 was simply meant to be accessible to some extent to pre-teens, more than other series maybe (ie: harem animes), but in that the original TV series was no different. As for its success, there is one big thing all people seem to forget: "karaoke" is a Japanese word. Persians ate their dead parents, Gallics cut heads and Japaneses like singing. Maybe if someone made a show about a man who could defeat space monsters with his yodels that show would be successful among Austrians, wouldn't? Kawamori managed to catch the spirit of jrock, so some jrock fans not interested in anime may have seen the show, and no, they were not pre-teens. Agent ONE, you may work in Marketing, but you are not that good at it if you forget each country has its own culture. I'll quote an example I've heard. There was a marketing company who was trying to sell French cheese. For a French the cheese is alive; if you were to make a commercial of it in France, there would be women touching and sniffing an unwrapped cheese. Those kind of things has not worked in US. The company found out that for US cheese must be sterile, free from germs; they placed emphasis on the tearproofness and airtightness of the wrapping and the product sold. Then there is the other big discussion: the comparison between Macross 7 and Macross Plus. First of all, there is some misconceptions about what a mecha fan aimed show is. I perceive a mecha fan aimed show as a show with no-nonsense hyper-detailed powerful mechas, a serious story possibly with little to no moral and meaning (ie "the physically strongest wins": that is not a moral) and lots of deaths and mechas destroyed. I perceive a character fan aimed show as a show with little tragedy, since not many main characters die. Sometimes I was given the impression characters in such shows weren't meant to change much, because the love for the character comes for the character as it is, not for the individual it rapresents, but I am still thinking about this (well, character driven stories are usually shoujo, and I am not fond of that). (This reminds of a witticism: "Men marry women hoping they won't change, and they will. Women marry men hoping they will change, and they won't". Female characters seem to have the biggest change of attitude in animes, while male characters are more firm on their dream. Maybe reality works that way...) Both sides have their flaws, luckily mecha fans and character fans are not all type of audience (and they are not exclusive each other, either). As for Macross Plus, it was indeed aimed to mecha fans, but also to general audience, and that made the big difference. Macross 7 instead was aimed also to anime otakus. This is why it could be called an acquired taste. You'd better have watched several silly shows as a kid before seeing Macross 7. There are a lot of references to sentai and SR. Airing violence in TV in Japan is a troublesome matter, especially right before Evangelion. An OVA has more degree of freedom, but a TV series have several restraints. This is why lots of shows have kinds of transfered violence, like assorbing life energy instead of actual death, or using blue blood instead of red blood. You can't blame a show for this, even if at the end in the case of Macross 7 this tends to make a show kiddish. On the other hand, bashing a show because it was mecha driven it as lame as bashing it saying it must have been unsuccessful. As for Macross Plus, I can assure you it indeed had a meaning; I am very sorry Macross 7 gets this treatment, but I can't slip this other thing either. Kawamori have always placed meaning in everything. Look at the original series for istance: Zentradies were a rapresentation of militaries taking control during WWII and inciting Japanese people to fight American invasors at all costs. That's why Zentradies were so shocked when they heard talking about civilians, a people without civilians is what Japan risked to become. Zentradies are a symbolic deformation of hystorical events. I can't find it in the Compendium anymore, but I read Bodolza's fortress in the series had the same height of Japan; its destruction by nuclear weapons was again symbolic, and that was the only reason in Macross there are nukes. Macross rapresents an acknowlegement of the guilts of Confucian doctrines and the rising of a new generation (a pop generation) trying to avoid the mistakes of the old one. Sometimes Macross is kinda preachy about these things, like when a commander forbade heroisms (and you are talking about the nation of kamikaze). The singer stopping giant aliens may seems silly if you don't know the real meaning behind it. Oh well, sometimes I think Zentradies were also a parody of mecha fans who are turned off by some simple song. Ore no uta wo kike! Now, Macross Plus had its meaning while not being related to WWII anymore, but that's another matter I'll let you find out for yourself (I am not taking out all the fun). As for chara development, my belief is each series or movie usually has roughly the same character development, no matter what the length is (obviously, in a longer series rhythm will be thinned). This is done on the purpose of instilling meaning in a series, a story simply must be done that way; someone may speed up rhythm to surprise audience, but it's really rare. I don't call going deep into a character developing him, it's still nice but there is a subtle difference. Anyway, the character who had a real growth in Macross Plus was Myung, not Isamu. The movie is the authentical version, and it is more Macross than the OVAs. Myung's attitude changed, Isamu's didn't. As for Macross 7, it can't be blamed for its concept of singer in a clown mecha. It may indeed have flaws of execution, but discussing about individual tastes is boring and doesn't lead to anything, and that's why this debate is still going on, because people talk only about tastes. Facts exhaust a subject quickly. Tastes are easy to repeat over and over, worthwhile discussions (sometimes there are some ) instead must be copy&pasted, and that's harder. Wicked Ace, that path leads to chaos, and chaos means work, and work is hard. Steer. Talking about Macross 7's flaws, I do believe Kawamori's supervision of Macross 7 was kinda loose (less than, say, Escaflowne. Other than that, Macross 7 was the only Macross show not directly directed by Kawamori, mind this), hence most of Macross 7's flaws in execution. Macross 7 however had plenty of Kawamori's spirit, but perhaps I've already talked about it. I could even list most of Kawamori's staples, and you could see Macross 7 has many of them (not all, but still enough), so in its way is still Macross. You are talking about Char's Counterattack? Well, that was because it was animated by Hideaki Anno of Evangelion's fame I've seen Nausicaa and I've immediately recognized his cheap style. This guy surely is consistent Final note: at least you must admit authors were keen enough not to insert in the show spiritia swords or the like. FV

Out of sheer luck, I've found out the ultimate evidence: The Truth There is some katakanas, but I am sure at least you can read the letters in the F-14 box: AN/AWG-9 radar FCS Shin's F-14 had the same radar of the VF-0, just less advanced. Mr March, I've won this fight FV

That was stated by the Compendium. Compendium stated ECA was invented in the old series. Compendium stated the first Valkyrie ever come out had active stealth. Compendium still hasn't stated Cyclops was meant to track Valkyries. No-one stated it was meant to track Valkyries. Maybe it is able to detect Zentradies' ships, but so far it doesn't have detected a single Valkyrie, and I defy you demonstrating the opposite. I suggest you to watch again VF-1's page in the Compendium. VF-1's radar is actually called "AWG-20 radar FCS", not Cyclops. This is the misunderstanding: I've not said Valkyries don't have some kind of radar, just this radar is not a Cyclops type one. Valkyries have also a lot of infrared/optics tracking systems, so radar are not vital for fighting. For what I think, I believe in close distance VF's radar could be able to defy an almost equally powerful active stealth, or at least there the other tracking systems backupping it, however combat beyond visual range is impaired (unless you are fighting a giant spaceship. The Quel-Quallie had mass detectors). Not so obvious. Check again what Compendium says. Why exactly three times, why the number 3? FV

Where is this stated? I think Cyclops was invented to justify why SDF-1 came to Earth. Even as a decoy, it received a signal from the AFOS and responded. Anyway, mind the show. Things detected by Cyclops so far: AFOS (by UN-Spacy, beginning of the story) Sara singing (by Aries) AFOS' body (by Ivanov) AFOS' head (by Nora. The famous PCS) Nobody still picked up a Valkyrie using the Cyclops. What should the Cyclops detect? Nuclear reaction? They aren't there. Alien technology? Kinda, but VF-0 is made on Earth. How do you tell it to specifically detect a valk? The pic shows what Cyclops can identify. No Valkyries in the hangar. So far only the SV-51 showed it had a Cyclops. The VF-0 doesn't have a purpose for it. At least do you agree that in GERWALK and in Fighter mode the armor is three times less effective but the speed is three times greater? This are indeed speculations (based on real data, though), but SW-AG was not a necessity. It was made on purpose. Anyway, why were Zentradies able to build the stealthiest Valkyries (VF-17, YF-21)? Maybe because Zents' mechas (ie: Regult) were already stealthier than a VF-1 (stronger active stealth, all Macross' enemies have it) and they just kept the habit? Did you ever think of that? I feel there is something of Macross we have not understood, or to better tell it, it was told only in some dark corner while no-one was listening to Kawamori. What we thought it was new in later shows, it is actually founded on old Macross' basis. FV

I'll read the thread later, anyway they actually made a model of VF-17T Kai. Notice: Bandai largely skipped transformable mechas. Maybe they feared they would be too costly. Anyway, Macross 7 had an OVA in 1998, four years later it first came out. This is some sign of success. FV

10 seconds. But in real world you don't fire like a madman. Short controlled burst are the key. Team work. You retreat covered by your wingmen. Fighting without ammo is a suicide, I doubt someone could order something like that. FV

Thermal image, a non-radar tracking tecnique. Ivanov was more sheltered than Roy and Roy didn't know where to look, that's why Roy didn't see him. FV

It was not the Cyclops. I'll bet my money Cyclops was invented just for Macross Zero. It was some other tracking devices, maybe simply optics/IR. Cyclops was able to detect AFOS' head. Only counter-spying detected anti-UN forces in the area. There was a scene in SDF where Roy told automatic pointing systems were useless. That was the concept, a Valkyrie could still fight even in case of strong enemy ECM. Neither HMM missiles used in test had. The YF-21 was invisible to VF-11's RADAR, not all kind of tracking systems. Big difference. He did both at the same time. Did you know Gunsight One was a Gundam fanzine Kawamori made? Did you know he had a Gundam fanclub #1 card? Do you think Kawamori could only think of the XB-70? I don't know if ayone can trust me, but YES, the VF-1 (and ONLY the VF-1) was mostly multiples and fractions of RX-78 Gundam (and ONLY the RX-78). Don't you think Roy destroying a Regult with his head lasers is quoting Gundam? Don't you think the Quel-Quallie remembered a Mobil Armor the first time Hikaru figthed one? Also, there is a lot of quotations from Yamato, even if I can't tell them. It was all made intentionally. This is true. But WHY do you think Kawamori invented energy converting armor in 1982 (and Compendium officially stated the concept was thought in 1982)? FV

Quotation of Gundam's Big Zam. OK, that's not a real answer... AFAIK, in a tank there is a commander, a driver, a gunner and a loader (one who feeds the main gun, I mean). Assuming loading is automatized, there are three men left. FV

Evangelion. Gundam. Matrix. Star Wars. Even Escaflowne. The path of modern epic starts from finding a way to cut down guns' advantage and push to more cool close combat styles. FV

Cyclops radar detects PCS or the like, not Valkyries. It detected the AFOS, no-one talked about detecting a SV-51. Indeed, Valkyries have also technology to counter radar ECM. They use IR, laser pointers and the like. Yes, it all comes back to Gundam. Even energy converting armor was on that line. It took me a while to understood how it was meant. In this thread I talked about how VF-1's stats were supposed to be read. FV