Nied

And that's why you shouldn't do it. Buying US equipment is one thing, it's slightly antagonistic, but giving out basing rights is the type of move that might just convince Russia it was wrong to recognize your independence. Given China's attitude towards the US they might just decide to sit on their hands while Russia returns things to the old status-quo (better than letting the US get another strategic foothold in the area). Hell if they moved fast enough the Russians could retake ROS before you could start thinking of any kind of military build up, and well before the US could even break ground on any base in the Kuriles. No China is a good ally, I just shy away using them to supply my air force. The general low build quality of Chinese fighters means they'd be expensive to operate, meaning less flight time during peacetime, that's exactly what I don't want. Like I said, it's outside the purview of the scenario but a better way to curry favor with China would be to equip my ground forces with their equipment (especially their supersonic anti-ship missiles with mobile launchers).

Actually I'd like that better than what we have. Poo and fart just sound so childish.

There's been some significant immigration since the ROS seceded. From the original scenario outline: That's still not exactly a large population, but the objective is not to engage in a long war, but to hold the line until someone (the US, China, Russia, India Australia or whoever) can show up to pull your but from the fire, or alternatively to hold your assets until one of the major superpowers can defuse the situation.

Generally not no. In actuality I don't cuss very often at all unless I feel it's warranted. That's what annoys me, I'm not going to cuss unless I really mean it and it kind of kills the meaning of what I'm trying to say to auto-edit out. Plus as Mr March said it's patronizing. We're all adults here we can handle people flinging poo. (Besides Max I've been here almost as long as you have)

Everything I've read so far said a 4:3 letterbox tranfer (non-anamorphic), instead of an anamorphic 16:9 tranfer. Your post made it sound like it was a 4:3 pan'n'scan, and like I said before: fart that poo!

Why do we have the stupid word replacement thing? Are we really worried about little kids interested in a 20-year old anime seeing the word "sh!t"? It's anoying and it screws up the occasional link to F*cked Gaijin. Let us swear again and we can live like kings! Damn hell ass kings!

Wait, I had heard rumors it ws going to be a non-animorphic transfer, but are they saying that it's going to be pan'n'scan?! Fart that poo!

Even though it's outside the perview of the exercise a good set of shore based ASM batteries (which I would buy from the Chinese) would be a good companion to any airforce the ROS sets up.

Yeah but the F-5 can't land on water, the Sea Dart can. Given that this is a VF designed to land on water it would have design features closer to the Sea Dart (a supersonic fighter designed to land on water) than the F-5 (an exclusively land based fighter).

China has historically shown little interest in expansion, even so either they or the Russians would be at the end of a long supply train even with a build up. The key would be to inflict massive casualties before your forces are spent, it would result in enough of a lull to either sue for peace or allow reinforcements to arrive. That requires a highly trained pilot corps to do, which in turn requires an air force that does a lot of heavy flying in peacetime. An air force consisting of low maintenance aircraft can be airworthy more often and leave more money to pay for flight time. A good net-centric C3 structure should act as a good force multiplier as well, which is why I made sure to outfit most of my air force with datalinks.

Wrong assumption, Noyhauser. I like your reasoning on why you need to arm, but then that's why I piped up with my choices, otherwise, I wouldn't bother. Good analytical points though, it is a bit wasted trying to preach to the choir, but would be useful for others. ROS in this case has to have a military, there is no doubt there. But the military has to be balanced toward the most likely foe. In this scenario, it was Japan and NK initially, I agree with a majority of your assessments. I think alliance with all the major powers doesn't hurt. ROS need to be essentially like Kuwait, yes, their neighbor could and did crush them, but they had so many allies, it didn't matter in the long run. Having an alliance with the current big boy (US) is a good idea, but with an eye toward the long run, China must also be a big ally. 402107[/snapback] Frankly based around what's been discussed here (and also a brief PM discussion between Noyhouser and myself that got too deep into politics to post on the thread at large) I think the ROS defences should be built around short term defence. It's got a ton of oil and is under the watchful eye of three major super-powers and a major regional power. The way I see it any conflict the ROS gets involved with will be short because either a) all three major superpowers will work to defuse the situation to avoid sparking WWIII, or b) the conflict escalates into WWIII. The first scenario requires a military strong enough to still be holding onto strategically significant sites (Oil fields and the Kuriles) when the dust settles, while the second scenario can only be dealt with by instituting a national Yoga training programme (so ROS citizens have the flexibility to bend over and kiss their butts goodbye).

If you don't have a carrier, what's the point? 402042[/snapback] Reportedly the Flankers are to defend against drug dealers. Just a wee bit of overkill if you ask me.

There's two key differences to your Chechnya comparison. 1). According to the scenario outlined Russia has (reluctantly) recognized your independance, and are on freindly enough terms to sell you arms. The main conflict with Russia are airspace sovereignty issues. 2). Oil. Chechnya doesn't have any the ROS does, possibly a lot. That alone would give the US an incentive to buddy up with the ROS (incedentally I unintentinally made the ROS a democratic nation when I mentioned a parliment). The prospect of cutting off a new source of oil for a burgeoning China helps matters.

True but from an uptime/cost of ownership perspective Chinese equipment is a nightmare. I could field a larger Chinese-built force but end up with the same number of airframes flying at any one time (and less effective ones at that), what's more I'll still have to pay for the maintenance on the planes that aren't flying. That means less money to spend on all sorts of better things like training and a larger pilot corps. That'll cripple me in peacetime and kill me in a conflict. Israel has the Phalcon AEW system that they have mounted on old 707 airframes (there's that maintainability problem again). They also offered an A310 based version for the RAAF's Wedgetail competition, reportedly it was more expensive and less effective than Boeing's winning 737/MESA combo. The Erieye, being from Brazil and Sweden, seemed a good compromise. ::edit:: Israel is replacing their E-2Cs with the 707/Phalcon combo, reportedly they're selling off the Hawkeyes for cheap.

Those three countries are former states in their own right, Russia had little sway over them in any case (especially CZ and Poland which were fundamentally western countries prior to 1939, as was romania to a slightly lesser extent) although even in the early in the 1990s the USSR had serious problems with them joining NATO due to Russian intransigence. The ROS buying weapons from the US would likely be similar to one of the CIS states trying to cozy up to the United States, and that being in its sphere of influence would likely provoke a negative reaction. There's actually been a bit of a backlash lately in Russia to NATO's encroachment. I don't think the US would like to involve itself into that sort of disupte. The best case for them is to go for China. I think that new Cheap F-16 type fighter that was just unveiled would look good. I'd also look to Israel, and India for other defence purchases, ones that are non essential. I think you can separate logistical items into three areas. Critical Supplies (parts that wear out or are used quickly, like certain parts, bombs ect.)/ Semi-critical (parts and equipment that wear out or may need replacement every couple of months, like certain avionics) /non critical supplies (Stuff that does not need constant replacement, ie airframes). How you purchase you fighters should be based on this critera. You want to make sure that you have assured, quick access to critical supplies, or have large stores of it. Think Israel during the 1967 and 73 wars. So China would be a good bet. For Semi Critical parts, you probably can get away without replacement for a conflict if its short, but you'll probably need replacements if the conflict becomes protracted, or if you don't have deep stores. Think Iran's american Fighters during the Iran/Iraq war. Finally for non critical supplies, you can purchase anywhere, because you don't have to worry so much about resupply during the war. 401923[/snapback] I worry about buying Chinese weapons mainly from a reliability and maintainability standpoint. Historically their aircraft are a bit crappy and I'd worry about my FC-1s of J-10s constantly breaking down on me. American aircraft on the other hand generally have a reputation for reliability. That might piss off the Russians but it appears that in the scenario I outlined the ROS has made the conscious decision to flip them the bird anyway (I made my purchases accordingly). Interestingly enough you've done a pretty good job of explaining why I decided to arm my air force with mostly Israeli ordinance. In a shooting war I figured I would be expending missiles the fastest, I figured the US might shy away from sending me more AMRAAMs or Sidewinders to use against the Japanese or the Russians, but the Israelis will sell to anyone.

I wouldn't worry about it Phalanx we tend to get into broad geopolitics from time to time and haven't had a problem, we went some 100 pages in the original Aircraft Vs Super thread and would regularly get into subjects that make this topic look tame. The Mods know that we try to behave ourselves in this thread and give us a fairly wide latitude. As long as you do the same you'll be fine.

The ARC Forums are back online! That explains why we haven't seen David or Skull Leader here lately. Incedently I think I'm going to edit my choices slightly, I realized last night that I purchased too many C-130s and not enough Erieyes. I'm going to trade one C-130J-30 and one Rhino (one of the dual control versions) for another Erieye, fit them with in flight refueling probes and I should be able to keep at least one AWACS in the air 24 hours a day. I've also found an intersting choice for basic trainer: the Pilatus PC-21 has a fly-by-wire control system so that it can act as a basic trainer, or with a flick of a switch mimic more advanced types, at roughly $7 million a copy you can buy a squadron for under $100 million.

Buying western and American weapons might inflame Russia slightlty but given the recent history (Poland buying F-16s, Czech Republic buying Grippens and Romania buying Lancers) I doubt it would be too big of a deal.

It looks more like the S-99 was recycled into the Sv-51. I'd imagine that the VF-5 looks more like a Sea Dart.

All right I was going to post my plan after I got home from work tonight, but a crashed hard drive has left me twiddling my thumbs here so I might as well post my plan. Here goes: Air Defense/attack: I've got 18 perfectly good Mig-21s (and two UM trainers) here, and it would be a shame to just throw them away, so lets upgrade 'em. The Russian Bison programme is attractive in that it gives me excellent BVR capabilities in the form of the R-77, however I'm then stuck using weapons that are incompatible with the western designs I'm going to buy. In the end I decided on sending my Migs to Israel to be upgraded to Mig-21 Lancer standards. At $5 million a copy they are extremely cheap and allow me to use familiar Russian equipment while at the same time maintaining interoperability with western designs. They're so cheap that I can afford to buy an additional 6 Mig-21s to be upgraded to the same standards, bringing me up to a full two squadrons in strength (figure $5 million for the initial purchase, plus the extra $5 mil for the upgrade, $10 mil total per plane). The only modification to the baseline Lancer design I would request are In Flight Digital Data Links (IFDDL) and refueling probes. These planes would be armed with Python V SRAMs and Derby MRAAMs for air superiority work, LITENING targeting pods and Paveway LGBs in a strike configuration, and Harpoon (or other suitable ASM) for a secondary maritime strike role. price: $160 million Air Superiority/Maritime Strike/Tanker: F/A-18F Super Hornet I need an aircraft that can sit CAP for a few hours over my oil fields or the Kuriles, or alternatively can haul huge amounts of ordinance against maritime threats. A squadron of 14 Rhinos (2 dual control trainers and 12 ACS versions) equipped with an IFDDL compatible with my Lancers and buddy refueling tanks should fill the bill perfectly. Typical air superiority load would consist of 6 Meteor BVRAAMs two Derbys and two Python Vs. Alternatively they can load up on Harpoons for maritime strike, or sling a LITENING pod and LGBs for ground attacks. Ease of maintenance would mean low support costs and high flight times, and the buddy tanks will mean more hours aloft for all of my pilots. In a true emergency we could even use their powerful APG-79 radars as make shift AEW assets. price: $840 million Maritime Patrol: S-3 Viking The P-3 is a ubiquitous and attractive option, but the US Navy is literally giving S-3s away! A squadron of these can patrol the sea lanes with torpedoes or Harpoons, or be fitted with tanking pods to further extend the range of my fighter assets. Hell I can even hang a LITENING pod under a wing for limited bomb work or reconnaissance. Along with my fighters, these would be fitted with datalinks to help integrate my C3 picture. price free! AEW&C: RB-99 Erieye The Boeing Wedgetail's ability to simultaneously track air and surface targets was extremely attractive, however buying reasonable numbers would have used my entire ten-year procurement budget. So I've opted instead for Embraer and Ericson's Erieye system. It should outperform JASDF Hawkeyes, and four of these with data links should give me good control over my airspace and waterways. Also I can train crews easily on a standard ERJ-145 that will double as a VIP transport. price: $800 million Cargo: C-130J-30 I originally thought about buying some second hand An-12s and calling it a day, but I realized that I'd pay for that down the road in sustainment costs. The J model Hercules should give me years of reliable service, and three stretch versions should be more than enough to move tons of men and material out to the Kuriles in an emergency. A tanker version seems redundant considering that I have two platforms for that already, but that might be an option down the road. price $210 million And that's it. I see no reason not to keep my Helicopter assets as they are, both the Hip and the Hind are sturdy reliable helicopters. Total price comes out to $2.01 billion, most likely some of the remaining $290 million would go towards ordinance procurement, the rest I would put towards training (maybe another two Mig-21UMs and more L-39s, or Pilatus PC-9s). The vast majority of the airframes I've purchased are rugged and reliable, and both of my combat aircraft can be flown from minimally prepared fields. Long term I can replace my Lancers with F414 powered Grippens to improve the reliability of my air force even more, and the Lancers allow me to do that without a painful transition to a completely western force.

A bit of googling will give you some decent ball park figures on the price of most military equipment. That Globalsecurity the various fact sheets on the airforce and navy webistes and a sparing amount of Wikipedia (not always acurate but good enough for a thought exercise like this) have given me most of what I needed.

I honestly hadn't thought of Harriers. I'm assuming you're talking about purchasing second hand FA.2s from the UK? Remember you do need something with legs to get out to the Kuriles for CAP and there's a fair amount of (assumedly territorial) water in between. Here's a map of the area for reference. I believe that the original author is referring to the long island in the center of the map, the Kuriles are the chain of islands to the east.

As Dave mentioned the Forums at Acig.org are atrocious but in amongst the threads about UFOs and making fun of women pilots I found this thought provoking thread that I thought I'd share here since this one has died down a little. I'm going to quote it here so that I can fix some grammar errors and add a few comments of my own (in bold): And before anyone starts trying to pack their air force with Typhoons and Raptors, someone down thread already came up with realistic numbers you have to stay within: I've got my own idea which I will post tomorrow, but I'm curious to hear what other people come up with.

The AL-31s in an Su-27 are roughly the same size as the TF-30 and GE110, physically they would fit. Though as Knight26 pointed out a while back the Russian engines use completely different mount points than American ones and thus still would take some work to be made compatible (I could see the Chinese being convinced to license a custom version of the WS-10 for installation into the ALi-Cats). 400730[/snapback] Funny Nied, because the Chinese Chengdu Jianji-10 fighter actually uses that exact engine model known as the Saturn L'yulka. 400818[/snapback] It does. What's more it was supposed to eventually received WS-10s instead of the AL-31, but after disappointing performance in the J-11 (a license built Su-27) it was switched back to AL-31s for the time being. AFAIK China is continuing to work out the bugs in the WS-10 in the hopes of introducing it later.

I did notice a few posts about UFO intercepts. Tom Coopers articles are pretty interesting though.