ChronoReverse

Actually, my argument was something else. I meant that the uber-powerful engines on the VF-25 could simply be for lugging around more equipment. That is to say, powerful engines that can produce super high level g's might not be purposed for that. And again, the g-limits are not the ultimate structural g-limits. The notation for the YF-19 for instance is the same as what is used for real fighters and only correspond to the sustained controllable g-limits. The actual point where the fighters would physically break apart is unknown for the YF-19/-21 and very well could be impossible under most situations for the fighters. And the point where the fighter would break in an atmosphere is obviously different from in space. Minor modifications to the existing controls of the VF's might even be enough. Minor movements like hand and feet motions wouldn't be much impeded while finger movements wouldn't be impeded at all. So they'd just have to minimize large limb movements (perhaps a joystick closer to the F-16 stick). A "smart" fluid with variable viscosity is also feasible (and not out of the reach of even modern technology).

I wasn't even thinking that actually. I almost always base my ideas on something from real life and fluid cushioning is definitely something researched in real life.

Eh, a design limit higher than the human body can sustain isn't necessarily bad. Being able to pulse a great acceleration is still an advantage even if it's not feasible to sustain it even for a second. Furthermore, more thrust has benefits beyond just acceleration. There's still things like payload that would benefit from massive thrust to the point where the physically possible acceleration is far higher than a human body could take. Incidentally, I'm surprised there hasn't been any kind of total fluid suspension g-dampening system in Macross. While that might not be reasonable for a frontline fighter, special ops fighters would be perfectly suited for it. Another possibility would be some sort of aerogel system.

Could be the whole integrated vs FAST packs thing. The VF-27 has everything in one package (and thus a great deal of PPBs in comparison to the stock VF-25). The VF-25 likely would have only minimal PPBs (perhaps just one) and relies on the booster packs to provide more (I'm basing this idea on how the Full Armor VF-25 can even project barriers).

Speaking of which, I do not believe the YF-21 exceeded it's g-limit (physical) anyway. Most of the damage before the collision is just heat damage from exceeding the atmospheric speed limit.

Hold up, how do we know that the YF-19/-21 can't protect its pilot for more than a dozen g's? For that matter, is the g-limit number given for the VF-25 specifically what the it protects the pilot up to? Incidentally, the g-limits aren't even necessarily the structural limits of the planes. For instance, other factors like the fuel flow can limit the g's too (one reason why the negative g-limit is lower).

That actually makes some sense since some of the micromissiles appear to be bear cans =P

A white dwarf is about the size of Earth. Plus no fusion is taking place in those. So yeah. @snakerbot Yeah and the fusion in those types of stars is a slow sluggish kind of fusion that's nowhere near even a yellow dwarf star like the Sun.

Actually they're not explosive at all. Proton anti-proton annihilation only releases some x-rays. Other particle pair annihilations will release various other photons like gamma rays. But they all convert completely into photons of some sort. It would take a special framework to absorb these photons and convert it to explosive force. It's not a given. That is to say, it's ridiculous to say that annihilation is explosive and thus gives birth to energy. Annihilation releases pure energy and there must be some way to convert it to explosive force (although some explosive force will almost certain occur if the energy release is rapid enough since even the atmosphere absorbing enough energy at once would be explosive). This is actually much more difficult than it would appear. One would need a method to annihilate large (understatement) numbers of anti-particles with particles at once to accomplish a release that could yield an explosion. But that implies mixing to increase the surface area (remember, basic physics still apply) which is something obviously non-trivial (understatement). Incidentally, even the rate of the fastest chemical reaction (conveniently called "instant" in 1st year chemistry) would still be orders of magnitude too slow. If you just tried pumping two streams of matter and anti-matter (say a hypothetical hydrogen and anti-hydrogen gas) together, it's entirely possible that you'd run into the phenomenon where the minute amounts of annihilation releases enough energy to dissipate the streams from coming together momentarily leading to a "sputtering" effect. It's very similar to how water reacts when dripped on an extremely hot surface (it'll ball up and roll and generally take a while to completely vaporize). In any case, it's quite clear that the propellant and "fuel" in valkyries must be separate. Otherwise, the information about the VF-11 and its practically unlimited flight in atmosphere doesn't make much sense. The nature of the propellant is still very much debatable unless there's some kind of OT bending physics. As for the engines and whatever the fuel it uses, we only know it's extremely efficient, clean, light and long-lasting. They're called thermonuclear out of convenience, but there's definitely some OT going on that makes it nothing like a conventional tokamak design. Even so, we have much different fusion designs in our modern day in the test stages so we shouldn't automatically assume toroids, magnetic fields and plasma. Sure that's the way the universe did it (stars) but the universe never made fusion reactors as small as a car.

Oh so it wasn't Manga's fault? Hmm, I guess I blamed them wrong for so many years =/

Wow, it's so much more clear than the Manga version. It still gives me rage that Manga had the audacity to sell the POS "work" they did on the Plus movie.

In terms of actual dogfighting, I have to agree that Basara versus Emilia was awesome. It was my first exposure to Macross after SDFM when I had long forgotten about it. I didn't even recognize it actually but just thought it was a great "dogfight"

Unfortunately it doesn't explain why the exhaust doesn't fry everything in its path. OT could take care of that I guess =)

Best you can get is probably episode 24 at about 16:22. Except it says WDE lol but whatever.

Oh don't worry, I'm not disputing your mention of foot or backpack thrusters in this case =P. I was only noting that there appears to be a significant segmentation of the engine output in battroid mode which may also contribute to the lower total thrust (and thus acceleration). Errors do occur from time to time anyway. For instance, the magic lasers of the YF-21 in the Plus movie. And about the units thing, I didn't even go into that, this about the orbits.

If that were true you wouldn't conclude with this: It's childish of me but I intensely dislike this kind of intellectual dishonesty. In any case, it's already a given that the valkyries are slower in battroid so we can only talk about why that might be the case. The proposed thrust stability and energy requirements theories are two reasonable possibilities. Incidentally, even the VF-11 had a pair of backpack thrusters in addition to the legs. So there's some sort of division in the engine system that may also contribute inefficiencies. Hmm, looks like even the YF-19's backpack thruster (single) is very powerful. Sufficient to drive the battroid mode by itself even. It's also interesting how the legs of the YF-21 also seem to have significant thrust. There's some serious engine and thrust splitting tech here.

No, you are correct in _esoteric_ terms not technical since there's a specific technical definition of orbit when discussing spacecraft. You're only correct in _esoteric_ terms because you're taking a definition of orbit that's outside the technical norm. Furthermore, you're pressing a point when it's clear you simply were mistaken. There's a few possibilities. In fighter mode, the thrusters are all aligned in a single axis for acceleration, therefore fighter provides the maximum possible acceleration. Battroid mode would thus vary from the fighter mode maximum to a lower limit. If you also take into account the higher energy costs in battroid mode one could hand-wave that battroid mode would be slower (actually accelerate slower) than fighter. Still, in absolute terms, battroid mode should be able to attain the same acceleration as fighter mode in space under specific circumstances.

Whatever makes you feel big. Seriously, does it physically hurt or something if you don't throw in a backhanded insult?

That actually makes some sense as the VF-19 in its original design had extreme atmospheric performance increases but only marginal increases in space. @daflip702 Mecha tech is Serious Businesss

Speed doesn't do that. Acceleration does. In any case, we're looking at this completely wrong. Escape velocity is the speed needed to escape without any further thrust. Since we're not talking about guns and slingshots, it's possible to escape at even a snail's pace; it would just take tremendous amounts of energy in thrust.

In any case, they're just units so can we just label the units and be done with it?

Seems like a lot of fast talk to me =P If that's really what you meant, then any valkyrie that's hovering is also in orbit (due to the earth's rotation). Man, even I'm orbiting right now. Just at zero altitude.

Unless you mean proprellent, the VF-1 doesn't. Entries for other valkyries indicate the use of air as propellent and there's no reason to believe this isn't the case for the VF-1. This is further corroborated by Hikaru and Misa's long trip on Earth. An orbit by definition involves revolving around the planet. A (relatively) stable orbit would mean an orbit that wouldn't require constant corrections. Neither definition would be satisfied by simply climbing to the point where space begins (by definition) We have no proof that it's _much_ cheaper. The VF-17 was a heavy battroid using passive stealth materials. So it required more material and more expensive material than the VF-19. The VF-19 in turn had more features like the PPB which would have driven the cost up. The engines were actually similarly rated at one point so that's fairly moot. However, most of the "innovations" of the VF-19 actually made it into the ostensibly (and logically) cheaper VF-171...

Incidentally, the head tracking tech I was mentioning already exists in real life.

Wait, wasn't that confirmed long ago? I could have sworn it was in one of the earlier threads.