Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

hey thats cool! DAve what do you think they will do to the YF-23?How do you think they will mod it? Will it still remain a combat capable interceptor/dogfighter? God I hope they test this thing.....its time to see what it can finally do!

Just a whole bunch. pretty much dude, pretty much. David, I guess that clears things up on whos the better striker. Do you think a YF-23 dual role strike fighter could outdo the F-111B? It's got the speed and big ass wings..........

Ewilen, that is debatable, the navy as a whole didn't wnat the superbug replacing the tomcat. SOme of the people making the decisions were not even airmen! submariners! Most of the tomcat fighter community and even some higher ups were against it and even till this day some of them are. So while those in a position of power higher up may have wanted it, there were many who did not. This is not to say that what you and noyhauser said is not true, just saying it wasn't 100% suppported by the fighter community. lso something I always wondered;/ F-15E vs F-111/FB which is better for strike? We all know the eagle can haul ass A2A and the E is dual role, BUT in strike how does it fair against the aardvark?

BAH!!! the horridness! can we be sure the airforce would choose side by side seating over tandem?

been needing an itch to get off my ass and DRAW! I might be able to contribute. Will post something in next 2 weeks if not too long...

well the F-22 ws intended to replace the F-15 mainly in A2A with some emphasis on strike but not much. Emphasis is air superiority. FB-22 is meant to replace the F-15E which has emphasis on strike but can do dual role duties.

oh ok. Didnt know as much. Though the nnavy DID push for the superbug there aer MANY officers and higherups displeased with that decision. Like me, their whole mentality is capability over everything else not maintanibility and trade offs. Noneteless I came up with a new debate. FB-22 vs F-15E FIGHT ON! then round 2 YF-23 regional bomber vs F-15E

from what I read in air and space weekly or something on campus, the FB-22 is fielded for more support for the raptor initself and keep the program alive. And yea a stealth long range replacement for the mud hen. I jsut think this wil be interestinfg and hope we finally get to see potential operational capability of the YF-23(weapons test, max speed/alt tests, avionics package and radar implemented with live weaponstesting). We never got to see the black widow do it before so i think its time we did!

not so much cheney pushing, more like cheney putting the nail in the coffin for the F-14 Super Tomcat 21 program in favor of the F/A-18E/F super bug. We all know about the cost overruns and such and how cheney was down with teh lighjtweight fighter community in congress and the "hornet mafia". It is more like the navy din't want the F/A-18F but had no other choice since Cheney cancelled tbhe F-14 ST21/D program and a year earlier or so the A-6F was cancelled.

yes but would it not be much more money to mod a plane to become a 2 seater, change the wings, (FB-22)remove parts, mod the weapons bays, and radar and such rather than to just install a new radar and avionics package and figure out how to mod the weapons bay on the YF-23?

heh its OBVIOUS im biased against the hornet. BUt I mean come on now that northrop grumman are partners, who the hell knows maybe the NAvy will want the YF23. The YF-17 was air force also but the navy wanted it and it turned into the F-18. So stuff like this could happen. THe YF-23 has many things going for it one of them being worked on by norethrop grumman, grumman has the most experience making naval aircraft while northrop just makes good planes in general. There is nothing saying the black widow CANT be fitted or modded to use the phoenix. I mean hell the YF17 wasnt planned to be an all out dual role naval strike aircraft either, it was planned for close in day dopgfighting, and look what happened.

Hmmm so the F-18L was basically a strike YF-17? I have a feeling this is a tomcat vs superbug scenario, plane kicks all ass but politics soils the victory. Man I wonder if the F-18L could have been exported to other countries, how mucha ss some 3rd world countries like my own(Philippines) would have been able to kick. (Sorry but as of yet I believe the PAF Philippine Air Force needs a serious upgrade...I mean come on F-5's?thats IT? what the hell? )

Dave whatys the beef of MDC and northrop? If it is being brought out of restoration, I believe MDC dont got a choice but to work with northrop grumman and restore this bnad boy to fllight status! Either that or grumman can yank out the undercarriage and use F-14 or A-6 undercarriages. somehow I see this thing with swing wings kicking all kinds of ass. Hah yes a dream..

I was thinking the same thing..lol Wonder about the landing gear and airframe stress though. It would be a lot better replacement than the super bug. dude they can handle all that!!!! Northrop grumman is the most EXPERIENCED of all aircraft companies in naval aviation! They can easily retrofit the YF-23's gear and undercarriage for carrier ops not to mention the engines within also have aenough thrust to still maintain a more than 1:1 t/w ratio. Not a prob. Mounting phoenixes is a sure thing I assume. Not to mention it can go faster, outrange, and be more stealther than the super bug will ever be not to mention more MANUEVERABLE!

That's not fair, if you're going to pretend the YF-23 has all that extra crap, you should do the same for the Hornet. Otehrwise you're biasing your argument for the beginning. howqs it not fAir? super bug is in prpduction, YF=23 never had weazpon systems on it

with the topics of the FB22 and rebirth of the black widow I thought it was time to bring this thread back up!! So more new topics!! FB-22 vs YF-23(regional bomber version) I know for sure the Fb-22 would be uglier than the YF-23. I mean come on its like an arrowhead. The YF-23 ultimately may still have the biggest weapons load. And sensors and crap. Hell if they navy wants(which presumably they know they want) a long range stealth fighter than this can be had if needed, after all northroip gruymman is the most experienced in terms of naval aviation. The YF-23 was stealthier than the 22 to begin with and its full limits were never explored, so if they do bring this back it should be interesting. The FB-22 for all we know is a paper airplane. Not one even built yet and who knows it might not be as stealthy as the regular FB-22. I know the airforce wanted it to justify buying more raptors and not cancelling the 22 program altogether. And hell it requires numerous mods whereas the YF-23 can jsut be restored within a month and outfitted with new displays as well as weapons systems. This wouild not take long at all compared to constructing an all new variant with various new toolings. This should be interesting and for more entertaining than the JSF demval. F-5F Tiger II vs Iranian dual vertical stabilizer F-5 hybrid. THe F-5F is venerable. But Iran has recently unveiled an F-5E with 2 vert stabs. Looks interesting but could it be better? Could it be a russian retrofit with glass cockpit? WHo the hell knows but nonetheless it seems kind of cool. A-4S vs A-4F. A-4S not only looks awesome but has a pwoerful engine. mde for A2A role. How does the skyhawk II fare against it? F-2 (FSX) vs F-16 block 60. A2a which is the better? COuld tghe F-2 even dogfight well? Navalized YF-23 vs F/A-18F pretend the YF-23 has a improvized APG-71 and all the wazzoo like phenix missles. What of stirke capability? Would it fare well or potentially kill the super buig's capability?

The LANTIRN/Nite Hawk issue is just a case of leapfrogging electronics, not airframe superiority. As the Super Hornets get ATFLIR, the advantage will likely swing the other way. And as usual, the range issue is a tradeoff with maintainability, not to mention stealth. All three would be factors in determining the pace of bombing operations. In a sustained bombing campaign, I'd give the advantage to the Super Hornet. as far as I know stealth does not factor in much with the Super bug. JSF yes but super hornet no. Range has a lot to do with it I believe IMHO. There is no use for advanced electronics if your plane can't even make it to target unrefueled.

this mgiht be from the Agile Warrior F-111X video game back for the PS1 in 96. I doubt they would convert this thing like the russian platypus. Hopefully they don't chop the tails on this thing off.. I for one would LOVE to see this adapt forf the strike role. Ya know for the FB-22 lockheed needs major aerodynamic mods where as the YF-23 can imbedd a lot of bombs as is and is stealthier than the F-22. Hopefully we see a good fly off for these 2 and I hope northrop finally has something cool to show off after all these years! one that does not get CANCELLED! -Yet somewhere deep within, I oneday hope if the air force dont use this thing, that the navy will see a high speed, fleet defense interceptor.longrante strategic stealthy strike, tomcat replacement in this YF-23...... whoopp de dooo de dooo (phoenixes internally, STEALTH, fast as hell, STEALTH, moves better than super hornet, STEALTH) come on navy....bring us back to the days when we had the best fighters, not the air force!

What a lot of people also do not know is that vice admiral Connolly retired before he could ever reach a higher position in the Navy. It is docuemnted in the tomcat! book by rear ad. paul gilchrist. basically when asked under alot of pressure what he thought of the F=111B, connolly said "sir you couldn't make a fighter out of that dog of a plane" or something to that effect,. With that the F-=111B was soon dead and later on connoly retired. But the F-14 was born. Many people thought years later that someone in congress or military would be ballsy enough to do what connoly dead, stand up to cheney or whoever is in church, and verbally slam the sh*tnet to the point where the tomcat would remain the main carrier fighter and upgrade to Tomcat 21. Yet to happen and probably never will. But yes thats a history lesson!

YES many pilots DIED when stuff lke that happened. See the TF30P414 engines on the F-14A was crappy as hell and was prone to stalling, if not exploding within the cowlings and damaging the engine more so. Usually when jamming the throttle back and forth fast during ACM(Air Combat Manuevering) 1 of the 2 engines would stall and this would make the working engine or the side of the working engine more heavy, in turn this would figure into adverse yaw rate, and with the momentum leaning towards the good engine at low speed the tomcat was prone to stall. Jetwash can stall an engine as well as sudden throttle movements in ACM. pilots of the old tomcat used to say fly the engine not the plane...until the F-14B came out. Flat spins in the tomcat are hard to get out of mainly because its such a big aircraft and most of the time the engines would remain stalled. though the spin may be fast it is only fast horizontally not vertically,. so when the canopy is ejected, it kind of hangs there, and most of those whho died in flat spin ejections died the same way goose did, ejecting into the canopy. In a sense the canopy would jsut float there. Not like in high sped ejection where the canopy usually flies away. In a spin the plane ius not moving forward, just sideways. read this in a grumman book but I trust david and knight more than that book so yea I guess it is possible and some did die but perhaps well i dunno. Knight are you a pilot? I remember you saying you worked on missles and stuff but I was wondering if you flew the cat before. I know some of us here are aviators but there is not man¥. I think the F-14 2would have owned the Mig -21. Would have been cool to watch. Ewilen that is a great pic~!!! BTW I am not sure the exact numbers but a site does have the confirmed kills from iranian tomcats nad boys it is HIGH~!! Seems our bad ass cat whupped some iraqi ass in teh middle east during the 80s! including a confirmed kill of mig from a pheonix at a range of 10 miles! plane split and half and blew up.

actually Dave, I gotta disagree man. I think the all time best colors for high viz go to the 70s era F-14 VF-1 Wolfpack squadron! now THOSE were awesome! I love the jollys and the downers but the wolfpack scheme never ceases to amaze me. I wonder what will happen with the grim reapers. WIl they just retire and be replaced by a sh*tnet RAG? I also wonder how tomcat pilots forced to convert to the superbug feel as well. I want to see a bat turn in action I have seen it in boooks but it is only a stuill picture, I wonder what one in motion looks like. I imagine it could be pulling more inches than a flanker's cobra and since armnament is usually between the nacells, the move could be done even with semi full A2A armnament and bomb load. Too bad in AC you cant mimic it at all. Perhaps in Aero Elite academy? then again in aerowings 2 airstrike you still cant do it either. F-14 will max out at 6.5g and will not go beyond in the tgame which sucks...id bat turn the hell out of the AI if i could do the manuever. only the F-18 seems to be able to do rapid pitch up in that game. hmm I wonder how a tomcat could fight a flanker 1v1 more trivia -tomcat was in tpgun because it RULED. no hornets in that movie buddy NONE~!!! -Tomcat is better than the hornet. This is very much true. -unlike the super hornet, when loaded up the tomcat does not need to compensate much because it does gain a lot of drag and its just so awesome. it really has realultimatepower.net stamped on it. -on one of the tv channels it showed a drogue refueling where the basket broke off and remained on the tomcats fueling probe! -IRST can detect stealth aircraft ffrom FAR away. Bear in mind this was the only teen fighter to even mount IR sensors for A2A. -tomcat is much more manueverable than people think. -nowa question, David, if the Tomcat was armed with AMRAAM, how man¥ could it max out? -in terms of swing wing nfighters, the tomcat is the most successful and in temrs of swing wing fighters in general, the least problematic.

but all the info is true too!!!

THe tomcat is way better than the missleer that the navy originally wanted. the less said the better. As david pointed out a long time ago there is a black box on Top of the RIO's ocontrol panel on the F-14D. noone knows what the hell this is for. THe F-14 was the first naval plane after the phantom to be able to turna nd burn with the best of them(phantom was not envisioned as a dogfighter where as tomcat was expected to intercept AND dogfight) and in the mock duel flown by chuck suel, the proto tomcat OWNed the F-4. many coun tries wanted the F-14, most could not afford. The Air force and ANG looked into buying it and chappy(forgot his last name) really pushed for it with new long range fuel tanks and the like but cost killed it. F-15N was even envisioned as a cheaper replacement but drag with phoenix as well as carrier retrofitting and price killed his idea(not to mention tomcats better) TF30 engines SUCK. no really they DO. AS evidenced by Topgun(this part is actually true) the tomcat IS hard to land and perhaps the hardest of the current naval planes to land. (not as bad as others 50s era naval planes) but still its big and heavy slow it down and it wobbles weight working against it. Thats why they call it the turkey. No US Tomcats were ever shot down in A2A engagements, only Iranian F-14s and even then their kill ratio seems to be a lot higher than anyone thinks. It turns out they pretty much scored a bunch of iraqi kills. F-14 is only fighter in the NAVY that can do armed recon and NOT remove the internal gun!. TARPS also does not take up many weapon stations and does not add drag. Most F-14A's and ALL F-14D/D®'s are wired for TARPS. F-14 is the only thing that could even come close to matching the A-6's bomb load and range(navy strike). ANd still not be a drag whore like the shornet. Tomcat 21 would hgave kicked all kinds of ass and then navy wanted it but politics killed it.

when nozzles are in full afterburner they are fully open., When still in dry military thrust at highest before burner, they are at "close" or minimal open space. slower speed means wider nozzle once more. Weird yes. When parked sometimes nozzles are one open one narrow, engine thrust is used asymetrically to turn on the ground. 1-ASF-14...teh most obscure design but I think I did in fact see a scan of this plane one day. It looked radically diffeerent and had a delta like front fusesalage. 2-Tomcats were in executive decision 3-THe grandaddy of them all of the joe line, the skystriker, was based on the F-14. 4-After the tomcat we havbe the superhornet, perhaps the plane that replaced the super hornet will be the true successor of the tomcat. 5-I like tomcats. At present I am a fierce advocate and have annoyed the hell out of folks on a gijoe board(not intended LOL) about a skystriker issue and how it could be retrofitted with POM to pass the required 8 foot drop test. 6-my alternator skyfire is an F-14B based design. 7-F-14C would have kicked ass...think 70s A-6 mated with F-14A with new engines. 8-Iran is rumored to have given F-14s to russia to retrofit with flanker engines, and glass cockpit, so far none of this has ever been confirmed. 9Contrary to popular belief the tomcat actually can dogfight, in fact better than the phan tom and was meant to dogfight to begin with, just not as nimble as a falcon and the larter teen fighters(I mean come on guys it WAS the first teen fighter after all and coincidentally the most powerful in A2A) 10-The A-4 mentioned in topgun though was meant to simulate enemy migs is nowhere near as fast as the tomcat(although jester in the movie said it simuilated migs and was indeed faster). 11-Had the navy not kept bandaiding the tomcat in the mid 80s we could hav had F-14D's and B's a lot earlier. 12-The F-14 can in fact do high AOA(alpha) manuevers but it bleeds speed more so than the hornet. 13-An iranian pilot claimed to have had scored a phoenix kill with a target less than 10 miles away. Suffice to say that must have been a huge impact. He siad the plane was knocked in 2 and blew up/ 14-Super Tomcat 21 would have had ATF capabilities aside from being non stealth. Thrust vectoring was talked about until theyn realized at grumman it could go 77 AOA and I blieve MAINTAIN it as well! in a turn or something. 15-Up until now no A2A missle can match the phoenix. 16-high viz was wonderful on the tomcat. Hornet?FORGET IT 17-F-14 was the first teen fightet to incorporate TCS and IRST. TCS was especially useful with sparrow kills. 18-surprisingly enough all US kills were CLOSERANGE and during dogfights! 19-It's achilless heel overall was the TF30 p414 engine(412) and PRICE. 20-pilots were court martialed and wings taken away for antics a lot less worse than that shown in topgun. 21-contrary to fan and popular belief of the general populace, only an idiot would pop the breaks and let the dude fly right by. IO will add more later once i think of stuff 14-

guys check this out. What the plane itself thinks about itself!