VFTF1

Oh yeah - that's right. The first shot was just because Ray said "press slide 5!" and Basara did it. That brings up a good point - namely - Basara didn't know, until Ray told him to press 'slide 5' that his Valkyrie had missiles. He presumed it was unarmed. Therefore - would he have done something different? Leaped at the enemy? In fairness, firing a missile was actually a pretty risky thing to do - I mean - at that close range, who'se to say Rex wouldn't have been hurt by the explosion? But yeah...good point. Really the second shot is Bassara's - the first is a surprise to him. Pete

That's a good point. Hadn't thought of that. Pete

True enough. But technically, "Generation 2" did not even refer to a truly "new" (aka rebooted) generation of Transformers, but was a story title that refered specifically to an off-shoot of Transformers who were born by celluar regeneration rather than from Primus - and therefore within the context of the Transformers universe of the comics, were a "second generation." That is to say - "G2 Optimus Prime" is still actually "G1 Optimus Prime" - He's only called "G2 Prime" in reference to the story - Transformers: Generation 2. Just like, of course, "Beast Wars Optimus Prime" (from the end of season 2) is none other than Transformers "Generation 1" Optimus Prime - because it's the same Prime from 'More than Meets the Eye' Sure, it became a colloquelism (sic?) to refer to pre-Marvel G2 TFs as "G1" -- but I think the designation was originally intended to only refer to literally pre-Marvel G2 MARVEL comics Transformers (since in the cartoon, there never was a G2). Then - all of a sudden - "G1" has now grown to the point where it ENCOMPASSES G2. That is to say- even thought G2 came chronologically before the official G1 (DW), G1 in the conventional sense CONTAINS...G2 So if you say "I like G1 Transformers" you are saying "I like Transformers Generation 2" - since Generation 2 is - now, according to this broad definition of G1 -- PART OF G1. All I was noting was that, with this video game featuring designs that have nothing to do with "G1" -either the original cartoon, or comic, or Dreamwave or anything else --- it still nonetheless gets labelled "G1-esque." Why? Because Prime is blocky? So Animated is also "G1-esque" ?? And therefore it's a "G1" story? If that's the next stage of evolution for the use of the term "G1" then..well --- G1 has become meaningless. It's going to get to the point where you'll have a bunch of fans who grew up on Armada and think "G1" refers to those robots from episode 1 who looked like "old Transformers" like Hound and stuff... I guess I'm just saying - I have the feeling that modern children who are Transformers fans don't know anything about the cartoon people like me grew up with - and to the extent that they heard of "G1" it's just this kind of blocky blob for them. They aren't going to go back and watch it all and read the marvel comics or anything like that. My Transformers is dead. Pete

Nice poster Sounds like it'll be fun. No chance these guys will publish their speeches after the conference? It would be great if people who cannot attend due to poverty and the Atlantic Ocean could have a chance to read their thoughts Pete

Yeah - sorry. I should have been more precise. By "dismal performance" I really just meant that the company that got the whole thing into gear went bankrupt and is now trying to sell Terminator - which immediately makes it LOOK like the movie was somehow this collosal flop that led them to bankrupcy...it's the association. But yeah -T4 did alright financially - sure. No reason not to continue with the next two installments of the new trilogy. Pete

That is a real risk that we run - you are right. And I agree. It's true because a show like Macross 7 ultimately is all about the music and the events touching your heart. It's like a good joke. If you need someone to spell it out for your in words - it means the joke doesn't work. The same with Macross 7 - the very fact that I believed that we needed this thread "proves" that Macross 7 does not succeed - it doesn't touch everybody's hearts. And you're right that it's risky to have a thread like this because talking about the show to death could actually mean that we drain it of its' surprise and energy. I am happy to hear this - it means the thread is not a total failure. I personally have tried to have the goal of this thread be to examinte the stereotypes about Macross 7 that all of us - people who love it AND people who hate it - have come to accept. And I hope that this approach to just going back to look at exactly what happened, what was said and done in the shows helps all of us re-assess our stereotypes - and this is what adds freshness to it. Macross 7 was actually one of the first long anime series that I watched in original Japanese, with only subtitles. And I watched it over the course of like 5 days - marathoning it through the night with lots of beer and pizza. So naturally - probably missed a lot of stuff - and what I got stuck with was a heart moving experience. Other people apparently got stuck with heart burn So the goal here is to put our hearts aside and just look with fresh and unbiased eyes at what happened. At least...that was my goal starting the thread... Pete

Well that explains your inclination to buy Leo Prime then. I'm the opposite. I love the vannilla Beast Wars toys with realistic animal modes and animal bits hanging off their robot bodies. I always though the robotic animals were a bit of a cop out later on... kind of like "futuristic cars and planes" - both are way easier to design than taking real world forms and hiding robots in them... Pete

Re: this whole issue of who is a god, who isn't a god, etc etc etc --- First of all - let's be clear about one thing guys: NO WHERE in Neon Genesis Evangelion is there ever a definition of what is meant by "a god" and "an angel" - and so I think it's really best to take these terms with a grain of salt. When we are told that EVAs have "bodies of god" I always understood this in the same sense that Transformers were called "God-masters" in Japanese -- it just means "super powerful." It doesn't mean that they have bodies of deities - unless of course we mean Greek deities - which basically means the same thing - because the "gods" were just that - MERELY gods. They weren't immortal, they had weaknesses and faults, they were constrained in some ways. EVA is not a GOD - EVA is not GOD. Proof of that is the simple fact that EVA needs a pilot to function - or at least a dummy plug. And when Yui finally ends up capable of flying off on her own - it's YUI. It's not "God." It's Yui in a super powerful body that will let her traverse the star systems. I thik you guys are letting yourself be duped into a metaphysical debate that's not there. The names in NGE - "gods" and "angels" etc are just there for the same reason as the religious IMAGES. It's to make everything LOOK important, to make it all LOOK alien and to touch us on a deeply spiritual level, because whatever our religious beliefs, all of us to some extent have been touched by a common culture - a common human history - and are therefore sensitive in sub-conscious ways to religious symbolism. So there is really no point in trying to map out the real meaning of who is a god and who isn't in NGE - unless somebody can point me to anywhere where it is clearly specified that gods are defined. Besides - who are we kidding? Gendo and Fuyutski talk specifically about where all these "god" like powers come from - from science. Human beings are building all this stuff - in an attempt to become like gods. But they will never be GOD - even if they are primordial goopy goo. The logical general, non religious definition of God is eternal, all knowing, Being itself, prime mover --- and alone (and content in being alone). This general a vague logical view has always been apropriated by humans in various ways to satisfy their deep desire for spirituality and we can't get into that anyways because it's the taboo subject - Religion. But my point is that the whole debate about whether Lilith is a god or who is god or whatever is pointless. You guys have to first answer the question of what is meant by "god" in NGE - because clearly THAT is key. What you or I think of when we hear the word "god" or "God" is totally beside the point. And to my knowledge - in NGE - the source of all human power is science, and "god" is generally and vaguely defined as "Beyond Human Liminations" And Science is that which proceeds to continue to push the bondaries of human limitations. The angels are some kind of creatures - born of the same stuff that human kind was born of. But this alone in no way answers the question of either THEIR origins or OUR origins. And I think in the case of NGE this is a futile road to take. Futile because the anime itself didn't care about it. The anime wasn' concerned about where people came from and whether or not there is or isn't a God, or who or what God is. The anime was always concerned with two things: 1) Who is Shinji Ikari and is it worth living the life of Shinji Ikari? 2) Where is Humanity GOING? We're not keeping our eye on the ball here when we get into this debate of who is Lilith the god and what is Adam the God and blah blah blah. Neon Genesis Evangelion is a work that is deeply metaphorical - and we cannot extrapolate on the basis of the events of this anime a precise chronology of the universe. And we shouldn't even look for it. That's not what Neon Genesis Evangelion invites us to do. I submit that Neon Genesis Evangelion uses a spiritual-artistic form to get us to wonder about our selves as we relate to ourselves. The angels and the battles with them are convenient metaphors for our personal battles with our own humanity. If we descend into the dark depths of a debate about Lilith, Adam, the Lance of Longinus etc etc etc - we will be missing the forrest for the trees. All of the actions and events surrounding the Spear and Adam and Lilith are as much poetry as they are "step by step events in a story." Don't try to read NGE as if you were reading a treatise on Math and God by Spinoza. This is not a treatise. My advise would be to think about what Lilith represents, what she - in her form and in what we see - tells us about ourselves. What does the spear represent? Holding Adam to the Cross? And don't let yourselves get fooled into thinking in theological categories just because things are called "god" and "Adam" etc. That would be the equivelent of being fooled into looking for Christian teachings in this anime just because there's plenty of crosses and Christ-like references. I have nothing against rigorous religious debate - but I highly doubt that NGE is inviting that kind of thing. This isn't the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. There's a reason there are no anime fans who worship Lilith or some such. It's just not in this anime. This anime isn't about that. Pete

I haven't watched GGG yet, but the thing about him destroying a sun sounds cool. Anyways - yay for your praise of Gurren Lagann I wonder how anybody in the future of anime is going to top that?? I mean - I do think Haruhi Suzumiya is fair competition - but the thing is - it is VERY telling that only a radically abstract show, which largely rests on the premise that the world we love is impossible or something invisible to us - can compete with a show which shouts : no! the world you love is right here! That's the thing about Gurren Lagann that I find so compelling. These days, with the cynical state of the fandom (me being amongst the cynics) - it's sooo hard to make an actual super robot heros show. I mean, if it's too simplistic, everyone will laugh at it and say it's kiddie fodder. If it gets hyperbolic everyone will just say it's a Gundam knock off - the mecha pornos will love it, but to appreciate it you'll need some emotional distance from the inevitable pathos. That's kind of what I meant when I said I felt like a kid again watching this show - because it's one of the rare stories to give us BELIEVABLE heroism. And I think that despite all our cynicism - we're all starved for true goodness and heroism and courage. It's just hard to convey in story form nowadays. GL succeeds and basically smacks you across the face every time you start doubting whether true heroism is still possible. For that it gets my highest marks. Pete

Yes, it was so retroactively applied- but by who? By Hasbro? By something in the cannon? No. It just became a convenience amongst fans. That's my point - it's a convention that has nothing to do with reality. The original cartoon and comics are not "Generation 1" The only thing that is generation 1 is the Dreamwave comics which, ironically, come AFTER the official Generation 2 comics. So -chronologically speaking - Generation 2 was first. Generation 1 was second Shows how much these people care about the continuity I disagree. Dreamwave doesn't place their comics into that setting. You might get that impression from the first issue of their "Generation 1" comics, but once you ge to "War and Peace" - it is patently clear that none of what is happening has anything to do with the original cartoon or the original comics, beyond using the same characters with relatively similar appearances and constantly using lines and scenes from the first Transformers movie. Beyond that - it is not the same continuity. It is a new continuity. IDW also has nothing to do with the original cartoon or comic. So - G1 does not refer to the original cartoon/toy/comic line. The original cartoon/toy/comic line was called Transformers. Then came Transformers Generation 2 Then came Beast Wars Transformers Then came Beast Machines And then suddenly came...Generation 1 And nowadays, "Generation 1" is this vague slogan that is supposed to tap nostalgia even though it relies on nobody remembering the original material, but rather just accepting that "G1" is cool because "nostalgia" is cool and "old skool TF is cool" --- even though the people using this label often nowadays don't have any memory of the original cartoon/comic/toy line. It's certainly a "living" label - I'll give it that It "transforms" over time. But if you want to be accurate - Generation 1 comes at the tail end and has really come to mean something not necessarily connected to the original Transformers IMO of course. Pete

Go buy Leo Convoy from BW II. He's a far better toy. He actually turns into something that looks like a lion, he has great articulation and a he's the star of a cartoon. Pete

Well, why shouldn't McG say he's be doing the next ones - let's him remain viable. What's he supposed to say "I don't know. Nobody wants me. Boo hoo?" I haven't heard anyone blame HIM for the movie's dismal performance or for the CR owners having to go belly up... he did a good job as the director. For the script he got - it was clearly a very well directed film. I mean - the sequencing, action shots and pacing were all great. My problem has to do with stuff that goes outside the realm of pure directing. I think... Pete

Whenever I get that it is usually followed by "because your credit card issuer has denied payment" which is usually because my credit card is empty anyways (it's just that sometimes it lets me go over limit when it's having a good day ) ... Beats me. But it doesn't sound like the problem is with Amiami. Pete

I hope Keith takes you up on that - because it would be very interesting. I don't know any Japanese, but as someone who has worked as a translator in other languages, I do know that sometimes it is possible to have extreme differences, particularly when translating complex poetic and literary texts, and I imagine that a show like NGE qualifies and that since we argue over the philosophical implications of the statements in english, then by all means there must be some root of this argument in the original Japanese which is itself open to interpretation. I take Keith's statement to mean that there are some important portions of NGE where Japanese speakers themselves disagree as to what is intended. I think it would be wonderful if you guys could have a civil discussion where you give some examples - not all of them, not asking you guys to drop everything and do an exegisis - but some examples of where you see these differences and why they are significant. Pete

Actually -here's an even more insidious interpretation of 'Macross Purist' --- Robotech fans who call people 'Macross purists' mean by that term - a person who ONLY like the Macross Saga part of Robotech. Because, you see, Macross does not exist outside of Robotech. So, all these wierd people who insist that "Macross is better than Robotech" are really loopy in the head because Macross is just one of three parts of Robotech - and it's so dogmatic and narrow minded to argue that one part of an entire Space Opera is SO great that you actually want to pretend the other two parts never happened. A Macross Purist lives in denial of the next two parts of Robotech that followed the Macross Saga- they for some reason want to just pretend the Macross Saga is all there is. They are wierdos who live in a cult. ---- And this interpretion makes sense given that for the casual Robotech fan Macross IS the first part of Robotech, so if they hear people saying "Macross is Better than Robotech" --- to them it sounds like "A New Hope is better than the original Star Wars Trilogy." That opinion sounds totally crazy and makes no sense. Pete

Now this is interesting - because I actually disagree with this. The way I see it, the fact that he fires not once, but twice does not show he he as a way to grow, but rather it shows what you rightly call the "limitations" - albeit not so much of the main characters as of physical reality. It's an example where Basara's idealism collides with reality presenting grim alternatives. It's just like when he beat the crap out of those Kings and Queens fans who pushed Mylene. Basara's knee jerk reaction is that when innocents are threatened, he must defend them. That's why he fired the missiles. He's not about to let Rex die until the enemy listens to his song. In fact, notice that part of what he does when he goes out into battle is - he makes HIMSELF the big red target. He diverts all attention towards himself. In this way, he is trying to protect others - other soldiers and other civilians. But we saw that when innocents are directly threatened, he immediately uses violence to defend them - we saw that in episode 3, we saw it in episode 5 and we will see it later when he saves Gamlin's life in the same way. This is not a one off occurence. The problem is - and Bassara knows this - that using the missiles is not a solution. Yes - it saves the specific lives he is protecting - but it only prolongs the war and causes more death and destruction in the future. It also makes him part of the cycle of violence that he wants to break. It's a tricky line Bassara wants to walk - he cannot be a righteous pacifist because it is not right to let innocents die just because you don't want to fight to protect them even if you have that chance. But he cannot be a righteous warrior either, because it is not right to make war, and even when war is defensive - there comes a point where either you try to stop it via means other than war - or you are FORCED by events to wage total war and make yourself no different from the unjust enemy you initially felt justified in resisting through violence. So I think it's more a testimony to the maturity of the series than anything else - Kawamorii and co. don't pull any punches. It's not just this fluffy wuffy la la la singy da and the enemy are convinced and life is roses. There is a struggle here - and there are no easy answers to the problem of what's happening. Pete

Hm...I like how they are trying to market this as "G1-esque" ... It seems to me that the terms "G1" has indeed finally come to mean absolutely nothing save maybe "blocky" ... It has little to do with the original cartoon and comics - which, actually, were never "G1" in the first place. The first place to officially use the designation "Generation 1" was...Dreamwave comics Transformers Generation 1. Prior to that, the original cartoon was always refered to by its' original title - The Transformers. I find it interesting that in the history of this brand, the original title - The Transformers - has stopped referring in peoples' minds to the original cartoon and comics, and instead become this uber-concept, while "G1" - which has nothing to do with the original cartoon and comics but actually began with Dreamwave comics which were a re-imaging and re-telling (one of many reboots) that vaguely referred to what came before - has now actually come to encompass the original cartoon and comics. The next step, as demonstrated by this video game, is that "G1" now means nothing. It doesn't mean the original cartoon and comics designs - it just means "blocky Optimus Prime" apparently... Pete

This is a sentiment that I agree with Keith about. Quoting other fans is fine. But pretending that the arguments other fans make are somehow authorative over arguments made by fans in this thread has no basis. I'm sure there's a lot of interesting, useful and factual information at evageeks and I am happy Gubaba once again taught me that something I didn't know about exists - reading that website will be a fun experience. But I'm not going to turn off my brain and forget about my own impressions of the anime and just input everything written over there as "the truth." Of course - I am open to the idea that my watching of the anime is not flawless - and already I've been shown numerous errors in my suppositions, or compelled by good sound reasoning to admit that what I thought were definitive truths about NGE were in fact just my impressions which are very open to question. Let's all keep questioning -but just quoting what some other website says and being like "there - it's setlled" in attitude isn't going to get us anywhere. People on this website also try to make logical arguments based in the anime. And..I do agree - at the end of the day - you just need to go back to the anime itself. Pete

Your reasoning is brilliant and very logical - and I hadn't thought of that either. I literally have nothing to add to your perfect statement. Pete

I now know where Wanzerfan came to believe it belonged to the US military. Behold: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=24 Therefore, since - as everybody knows, Harmony Gold produced Neon Genesis Evangelion, which was the Fourth Part of Robotech, following the original Trilogy, then Wanzerfan just obviously made the assumption that since the Tomhawk destroid had US Army written on the leg, then the US army also made the Jetalone. Logical presumption IMO. You're just being technical.... Although - "they" do TRY to use those things against Toji's EVA... but never get the chance... Pete

Heh heh Well - good point from the point of view of those who consider M7 torture I could see where I failed to meet the Godfather criteria of an offer he couldn't refuse Dear Memo - please choose: a) I keep making fun of you, b) you join our discussion of Macross 7 ... talk about being given the choice between a rock and a hard place Not really strange. Ready the last 37 pages of this thread and calculate how much of it was assing around like I do and how much of it was some serious attempts at discussing Robotech. The proportions will show, I am confident, that even though most people here at MW are critical towards Robotech, the level of criticism is interesting enough to be able to proclaim that Macross World has one of the most vibrant Robotech discussion boards on the internet today. Scary huh? Pete

Oh yeah - that's for sure. I wrote this is my review of the episode too, and totally agree. Even if she is motivated by jealousy - and it is a very interesting question Jasonc brings up - I still think the way she did what she did was cool and mature. She basically just showed Bassara - as you say - that she cared, and was assertive - but didn't go so far as Rex...but also showed Basara she was going to be by him through and through. Really nice touch. Pete

If you're talking about the MW rewatches M7 together thread that I opened - you are invited to do more than just read. Please watch with us and post your thoughts. Pete

Well - I am not going to comment because I am an ocean away, won't be at the con unless zillions of dollars rain down from the sky making getting an airplane ticket to California in 2010 feasable and realistic, not to mention hotel, food, renting a car, lodgings etc etc - which is so unrealistic that there's no point in even dreaming it... That said - Is this the thread I opened? If so - MEMO YOU ARE INVITED TO NOT JUST READ THE EPISODE RECAP THREAD BUT TO WATCH THE EPISODES AND POST YOUR THOUGHTS. I know I made fun of you in this thread - but it would be against my Bassara-religion to be an ass an not want to have you feel the power of his awesome music or at least share you views and experience of it. I'm not going to comment on anything else because what's done is done re: Seto's being banned etc. Thankfully we have Macrossworld where there is true freedom of speech - even for Robotech fans, with the only requirement being that Robotech is kept to this thread). All hail the mods/admins for that. Beyond that - since people are likely to comment about this - I will say this: There is a moderator at MW who often makes a great point - Roy Focker - he likes to say "Yeah, this is the internet, and that means that what we say here is extremely important!!" - which of course is his way of sarcastically pointing out that we're just casually sitting in relaxing chairs and bitching at eachother. Not to belittle the reasons for the bitching but if a dude steps up and takes interest in Macross 7 - I'm all for burrying a lot of hatchets. If it helps Memo - I apologize if my making fun of you offended you - I was doing it as a joke - but if you did take offense - gomene. Come join us in the Macross 7 thread. Pete

I think you've hit the spot. My (ex?) girlfriend's daughter was/is constantly jealous of her mom for having a boyfriend (me, I hope). It's certainly a female thing. Women are possesive. In fact, I just finished a 2 hour conversation with my (ex?) girlfriend during which, amongst other things, she went off about how duplicious guys are, and how they lie and cheat etc etc. I asked her if I was a space alien, or whether I fit into the category she defined as "guys" to which she said that I was in "a different category" namely the "I don't care, take me as I am or leave me alone" category and insisted I get a hair cut and do my laundry this Saturday when we're supposed to go out together.... Like I wasn't gonna do my laundry! Jeez! I could frickin' jump into a washing machine and she'd still say I wasn't clean. My (ex?) girlfriend is like the chick from that movie...Phobia?...about the girl who wore a mask, and feared that even the smallest little itty-bitty piece of dust was the beginning of the bubonic plague. But...as for whether Mylene is exhibiting the possesive "I hate when other girls get stuff that I don't get" jealousy, or whether she really is jealous of Basara...ooo...tough call. From the standpoint of episodes 1-5, it's too early to tell. Certainly she is close to Basara because they are in a band. Their discussion in episode 4, in the sewers (romantic place, eh?), where Mylene opened up to him about her reasons for running away and wanting to rely on herself kind of show that she's lonely and - despite her words about self-reliance...the fact that she had to TELL him about it means that she does need someone, and he's a good candidate. She clearly trusts him. But I think she doesn't trust her own feelings yet at this point - and seeing Rex make that snap decision of kissing Bassara in return for rescuing her - Mylene sees in Rex a woman who isn't afraid to go with her feelings. I think this is what sets her off. Because she does have feelings - but she's still at the age of "what should I do!??!!?" Rex is the type of woman who doesn't really ask these kind of questions - because she's pretty well settled in terms of knowing who she is, what she wants.. So... I think it's a bit of both. Possibly the inherently womanly tendency to be possessive-jealous of other women prompted her or encouraged her - gave Mylene the little inner-push she needed to take positive action with a view to her budding feelings for Basara. Pete