VFTF1

This is something Bigbadtoystore does well - if you read their faq, they say that they will give you store credit if you buy something at a higher price just before a sale so that you don't feel angry. Of course the real problem is that there comes a point where if nobody is buying things at a higher price, ain't no point in sellin' 'em anyways Pete

Yeah - he kinda is - but since I go off topic and break my own guidelines every now and then too... I guess the point is to try to at least bring it back to the episode in question and not go too far off the deep end. Which is why I'm not going to respond to Dex right away - to keep it from turning into a debate that's too dissattached from the episode. My proposal: Dex raises some good questions about futurism - let's see how the issues he brings up play out in eisode 7 and keep them in mind as we discuss the next episodes. As for the movies - doesn't one of them happen sometime DURING the series? Namely when Bassara later goes off on his artsy fartsy quest for self-knowledge? Pete

I hate having to admit that some people are hopeless. Pete

I don't I live in a town where electricity started coursing in 1968. I remember that - up until about 2005 there would be a black out in my town if a gust of wind came through - seriously. If the wind blew, or there was a thunder storm - a mild, normal thunderstorm - it would take them like a week to turn the electricity back on for the entire town. When I walk into a house in Poland, I don't expect it to even have central heating, more likely there is a coal oven. Internet? Forget it. In the bigger cities - yes. Out in the boonies - no. Except for nutballs like me But when you take into account that the vast majority of people live in the boonies - that is sure a lot of folks who are late to the "oh cool! We have electricity" party. Mass warfare tends to regress civilization. Before WWII, there were telephones and electricity. When the Nazis were here, there were telephones and electricity. When the Soviets came - they took all the telephone poles down, and the electricity was cut. It came back in 1968. I guess my travels to crazy parts of the universe called Earth have taught me not to take anything - not even electricity - for granted. The point of my little history lesson is to demonstrate that I think it is impossible to talk about technological progress without talking about the human condition - if people are busy fighting wars or hunting for ethnic minorities and blowing up buildings, bridges, roads and eachother - science regresses. And contrary to how easy and accessable it seems to us - it can dissapear in a flash and take decades to regain. I'm not sure going any color is important in a closed habitat like a space craft, since everything in the craft is artificial. There are no "natural resources" on a Macross colony ship - there is only what the human mind decides to put there and cultivate. But you are right that the problem of scarcity would be more direct. However, the valkyrie are a good point of reference. They run on nuclear engines. I would imagine that fission power and nuclear energy - barring the development of something more efficient and safer - would be in wide use on the colony ships. Above all though - it seems that in the Macross universe there are really a variety of diverse ideas about energy and resources and how to deal with scarcity. Just look at the differences between Galaxy and Frontier. I know the show painted this picture where Galaxy was full of Dr. Frankensteins while Frontier was full of normal people - but that is kind of a stereotype that was necessary to tell a story. In reality, Galaxy is home to human beings, just like Frontier. And just like there were corrupt and evil people on Galaxy, let's not forget that Frontier had its' fair share too. And just like Galaxy's extremist reliance on human science came at certain human costs - Frontier was not perfect either. Ranka was commiting a crime by keeping AIkun and not reporting him - breaking the Environmental Act - just like the President with his cigars. But people and laws are imperfect. Anyways - back to the exact science of Macross 7 --- I get the feeling that the biggest novelty here is just the very concept of a Domed colony. Kawamori seems to get into the more technical aspects of how it would function in Frontier - but here it's just the idea of humanity living on these huge clamb like domes that is the big scientific advance. Oh - and the radios... I know this was last episode, where we saw the radio...although...wasn't Mylene listening to one? ... Anyways -- if we're talking about "going Green" - I figured out a great way to explain the 90s looking radios: Wind Up Radios I read about some enviro-dude who invented wind up radios that don't even need to be plugged into a socket. You just wind it up and it goes.... For how long? I dunno...but it does Ok...now I'm rambling One last note: Personally - I LIKE the fact that Macross blends futurism with contemporary, "normal" life things. That is to say - look at fashion - I really like how they have all this advanced technology but girls still wear dresses and you see guys in suits. And young people still have different styles. And they still wear ties to school... There's a lot of constants. It's like - just take a snap shot of street life in a contemporary urban setting today in a developed country - and put it in space. I like how Macross doesn't have to revolutionize everything we are familiar with in the name of "making it look like a unique future." And I like the blending of advanced technology with more old fashioned stuff. For me - this is very close to life - because I live in a country which is a constant tapestry of radical contrasts. You can drive out on the streets here and still see farmers riding horse/carriage buggy contraptions from the 19th century on the same street as you can see the newest BMWs or Lexus or whatever luxury car you can think of. And it has less to do with some kind of "rich/poor" divide and more - I think - to do with people's life styles and habits. Just like in Amsterdam lots of people who can afford cars prefer to ride bikes and hot girls date men who put them on the back of a bycicle and don't look down on them for not putting them into a nice car - so too in Poland there is still a lively country side where people ride horses, or where you can catch people driving horse/buggy combos. Everything is mixed. It all coexists. And that's the case in Macross too - which is one of the things I really like. I hate sci-fi which homogenizes the human experience in the name of one view of what a rationalistic scientific future will look like. This bugs me about say -Star Trek. And Isaac Assimov tends to do this as well with his Foundation Series. Pete stops his rambling...

I would like to ask Dex one more question - about those pads.... and by the by - I think it's awesome that our discussion of Macross 7 has stopped focusing for a minute on peace, love, songs, galactic romance etc and actually focused a bit on science fiction and physics - this is a welcome avenue of discussion. Anyways - back to the pads. You mentioned they might be recyclable - I was also thinking about the issue of their disposability. I mean, it would be pretty expensive to have a complex machine like that and then...what?...patrons just toss it in the trash after the show? Or leave it, like a popcorn box, under their seat for the cleaning ladies to worry about later? And then...I realized that...why not? Maybe it is a disposal super computer pad. Maybe technology in Macross 7 has advanced to the point where it is really cheap to produce such things - as cheap as or MORE cheap than paper even. I mean - if you stop to think about it - making paper is technically not something anybody can do either. But the production of paper has been perfected to such a point that we can now literally whipe or butts with it and throw it away Or - we can pass out free pieces of paper as brochures with information- knowing full well that people will throw them away. So... why can't technology make a similar leap and maybe one day - computer pads will be so cheap to produce that they will be used like paper - disposable. We shouldn't assume that technology advances but productivity remains flat. That would actually not be possible. If Macross 7 is a world where people have customized variable mecha, then it can also be a world where computerized brochures are disposable and don't need to be recycled, and don't need to cost as much as we would pay for them in our world/time. Pete

All I want is to be able to afford to take my girlfriend to celebrate New Years at the Sea side. Sounds crazy to go to the Seaside when it's Winter and the particular Sea is the Baltic sea, which is always freezing anyways. But there you have it - dear Santa - let me afford gas, a nice romantic place, food, booze and taking a walk on the beech and taking a swim with my one true love for New Years That's all! Pete

Taks makes a good point here. I will try t clarify this point: What does it say when a Mod bans somebody from Website X and then comes to website Y to argue with the person that he banned from Website X? It does indeed look silly when these guys ban Seto and a few others and then...finding there is nobody to talk to...come here to continue a discussion they were having on another website which abruptly came to an end when they banned the people they were talking too In the words of Galvatron: "This is bad comedy!" That said - I do think that there is no point in giving them an easy out. And I think that banning Doug Bendo from MW - especially when he hasn't commited any grevious infractions - and IMO he hasn't (yet?) - would be giving him and his ilk an easy way out. The ONE THING that these guys cannot do in the long run is debate. They run out of arguments really fast. When they have the power to ban people, they ban them at the moment when they can't think of anything else to say - so they switch gears from "counter argument" to "finding a technical reason to get rid of you." But put them in MW forum - in this thread - where they don't have the power to ban and only have the equal rights of all members to write their opinions - and what do we find? We find that they are quickly "out of ammunition." And either they will chill out and agree to disagree and go home or stick around to check out the other threads, or think up new arguments and continue the debate OR they will snap. Either way - banning them now would be a bad idea and even discussing it is IMO - a bad idea. It's a bad idea because we've just started to debate them here. Get rid of them now when they haven't done anything horribly against the rules and you just give them ammunition to say "see - MW members have no right to complain about us banning them. They banned us." Of course you can find places where they broke some rules - technically. But hey - you can find places where I technically broke some rules too. You can do it to everybody. I'm NOT trying to get around the fact that ultimately the mods have final say. But what I am saying is that I think you gotta be careful because to slam the banhammer down when all that is going on is a heated but civil debate in the appropriate thread would leave a lot of bad taste in people's mouths I think. Pete

Agreed. That said, I personally don't think it's turning into a flame war, or has come anywhere close to it. All that's happened is that the people who run some Robotech sites and have banned several people who are now MW members came here to continue their argument. So far, I think the argument has by and large proceeded in a way that focuses on the issues. Sure - it's a heated argument and some people get emotional over it. But nobody has been swearing at other people or demeaning them, and when someone does let a tad bit of personal language get in the way - it's usually done in a larger context. That is, I have indeed seen words like "twit" or "stupid" and a couple of other choice terms flying around - but always in a broader context. I hardly think anyone on the recieving end will get offended by these words if they are coming along with multiple arguments in the context of a heated debate. They're just a bit of melodramatical flare - and they constitute, by my rough estimate, 0.0000009% of the totality of posts. Second of all - on a personal level, with all due respect, but I find the practice of anonymous "reporting" of posts questionable. Whenever I see something I consider a violation of the rules on this forum, I say it OUT LOUD to the people who I think are violating the rules. I don't even PM them - I just write in a post "be careful guys - this could break the rules." I do this mainly because I don't want to see friends get into trouble. I have also noticed that other people also point this out - even to me - when I am violating the rules. In the majority of cases, the membership on this forum self-moderates. You guys usually don't have to come into a thread because the people in the thread look out for eachother and make sure nobody crosses any lines. I think this is preferable to anonymous reports that create a tense situation and compel mods to read the thread. But - ok. So now you guys are reading it. For me - this thread is kind of like a twilight zone. I am not a Robotech fan, and I have never been a member of any Robotech website, nor do I plan on it. This is not because I "hate" Robotech - rather, it's for the same reason I have never been nor do I plan on being a member of a My Little Pony website or a Brady Bunch website or a Camp Batman from the 60s website - because I'm not that interested. Sure, I can read and write about those subjects if they come up in individual threads - but I'm not that into them to go and join their websites. Robotech fans, however, end up coming here to debate with us, and there is of course no way to ignore the fact that Robotech has SOMETHING to do with the history of Macross and that a vast number of people are still confused about it. This thread serves to iron out the confusion and set people clear. To make sure that if a Robotech fan wants to be a Robotech fan and reject Macross, then he or she at least KNOWS what is being rejected. I've been trying to balance between two things: A) Supporting Macross over Robotech and showing why Macross is better (my opinion) B) Being fair to people with the opposite view and making sure they are not flamed by the majority who happen to all love Macross more So far - I haven't seen anything in the thread that can qualify as a flame war. There might have been tense moments that looked like they were going to be infractions against the rules. But nothing more IMO. All of us in this thread (except Memo, and Doug Bendo who just got here) post in multiple other threads on Macross World. I think all of us are very aware of the rules here and respect them. Pete

I'm with RDClip here. I spent 2 million 100 thousand Yen on toys this year, so what is that...19 thousand USD? the majority of them upper crust toys. Sadly - I didn't actually KEEP all of them If we're just going to count the toys I kept - then we're not looking at much. Probably two thousand dollars worth of stuff in my collection...but some of that is from last year....so I dunno....a thousand bucks? Average. Pete

Well that's good to know. I mean - if the poor girl were to SEE the movie where she was shown naked...her mind would be perverted and she'd jump to her death from a second story window. Oops... I think that was another sarcastic quip. But I'll just also add the most obvious movie to this batch - not n Oscar winner - but a legal movie: Lolita. I don't know about the original, but the one with Jeremy Irons has a 15 year old girl in sex scenes with him. R-Rated sex scenes, to be sure. THEN AGAIN... REMEMBER SCARFACE with Al Pacion was RATED X originally. Yet it has NO sex scenes whastoever except for the fairly innocent one in Many's appartment with two giggling naked blonds. Yet still it was rated X like a zillion times - for the swearing. Because they kept using swear words. So - there has been a lot of back and forth on the issue - but even ratings on movies are not legal rulings. They're just there to avoid problems and inform people what kind of content to expect. As for child porn in public high schools - well...movies are one thing...but in my high school, boys and girls were known to ...date! Pete

What I don't understand is the fixation with just that one issue of Ranka's nudity. Like - go read OUR Macross Frontier episode-by-episode discussion. Lots of criticism in those threads - lots. And later, lots of Macross fans have had critical things to say - heck - go read the Itano thread. But this dude just zeros in on this one thing and blows it out of proportion. I don't really get that. Am I to understand that he enjoyed the entire series - and then, at the very end - Ranka appeared naked which shocked him and made him hate it all of a sudden? And I mean... what about episode 8 - Sheryl's panties?? Pete

Whadn't that the year when gay hippies came from space on their space whales and forced everybody to get stoned and make love? That doesn't count Pete

Thanks for that info. I never saw Macross II, so I didn't know where that music was form. It's pretty good music. As for the acoustic of My Soul For You - I heard it on Yotube.... I think.... Thank you for continuing to post scientific analysis Dex. This is very very interesting and welcome. I have a question about one thing in your analysis: Would the huge Mass of the Macross 7 and its' anjoining different "cities" (the industrial ship, the entertainment ship, the farming ship etc) create enough of a gravity pull that an escape pod - even though it would be out in the void of space - would still (absent the force of its' own thrust) be within the sphere of the ship's gravity? And therefore - wouldn't missile shards in space - in such closs proximity to something of such huge mass -also be under the sphere of its' gravity and concievably - being pulled towards the giant ship by its' gravity, threatend the escape pod which, under the force of thrust, is pulled in the opposite direction? That is to say - the escape pods thrust has a large enough force to escape the gravity of the giant ship. But the missiles shards and shrapnel would head towards the oncoming Escape pod with a speed of a) the force of the explosion which propels the missiles + b) the pull of the gravity of the ship. And this would put them on a collision course? And of course this depends on the mass of the ship and whether its' gravity field was sufficiently strong? Or is this all wrong - since I am not a physcisist and am going off of imaginative science fiction Pete

In the words of Tony Montana (Al Pacino/Scarface movie): "You can send me here, there, anywhere. There is nothing you can do, that Castro has not done" Seriously though - I'll accept whatever verdict comes my way. I have tried to write withint the framework of the rules - gotten no warnings yet. I would hope someobody would warn me BEFORE they decide to ban me and give me some guidelines if I'm overstepping the boundaries that you guys have set up. But - ultimately - it's your call. Re:Graham's "if you don't want to listen to him, just don't talk to him" etc - that is of course an option. But since lots of ex-Robotech.com people landed in this thread after being banned over there, and have come to realize that even though this is a Macross dedicated sight populated with Macross fans, then they can STILL talk about Robotech in this thread and we Macross fans won't flame them or ban them - then that means this forum is cool. I just hoped to afford to Doug and Memo the same courteousy that they denied to Seto and other people - namely the courtesy of an open and rigorous debate instead of using moderating powers to just ban them - like they did towards other people. There's my brief Apologia. Pete

REPLY TO DOUG BENDO PART II Doug Bendo is Quoted in the Quote Tages Yes - we can "go back to Ranka" - sure. But I would really love it if you responded to Save's one sentence rejoinder to your entire argument, featuring a scene from an episode of Robotech with someone's butt during a shower. But - ok - let's talk about Ranka. First - I am willing to admit that my opinion of why she is shown naked is wrong. It's just an interpretation. Interpretations actually don't even have to be "wrong or right." Look at a sun set - to a man driving home from a long day at work, it's meaningless. To two lovers sitting outside hugging and enjoying it - it's romantic. So - which is it? Is the sunset meaningless or romantic? It's both - depending on the person looking at it. You say: "If it was artistic then the concept of the art would have changed in a way that would have let the viewier (sic) know this has a symbolic meaning." Really?? So - in Doug Bendo Land - when you go to the Opera, a great big NEON SIGN needs to flash above the stage that says "SYMBOLIC MEANING!! WARNING!! SYMBOLIC MEANING!!" and when we watch something on TV, there need to be subtitles (or a voice over) that screams out "SYMBOLIC MEANING IN 20 SECONDS! BRACE YOURSELVES!" I don't think so. Art is not science - it doesn't "work" that way. In fact - just as it is impossible to precisely define "pornography" for the purpose of law, it is impossible to define "art." What IS possible is to define "freedom of speech" for the purpose of law - and part of the reason freedom of speech is protected is because intelligent people acknowledge that it is impossible to come to definitive conclussions about controversial things, and that it is better for there to be tolerance and open debate instead of giving the State the power to put people in jail for their private tastes and opinions. One would think that this concept would be vaguely familiar to someone living in the United States. Secondd of all - what "Lisa Hayes in Orguss" ??? There is no Lisa Hayes in Orguss. That picture is a reference to the Macross character MISA HAYESE. You do understand that, don't you? You do understand that the creators of Orguss were not sitting there thinking "And now - let's give a shout out to that babe from the Harmony Gold cartoon Robotech" ?? That was a reference to Macross and to Misa. You do understand the difference between the two, don't you? First of all - who ever said that "we supposed to like macross for the mecha" -- Doug Beno? Yes. But anybody else? No. And even if someone else said it - why is this true? What does this mean? We are supposed to like Macross for the mecha? Huh? Sure - there's some great Mecha in Macross, but there's also a great story, and great characters, and great music - there's a ton of stuff to like - not just Mecha. Second of all - yes, because it is not a "real child" it is ok - legally. But fine - let's also discuss it as an issue of taste, culture, morality and propriety. Is it tasteful? Yes - clearly Ranka is not "a child" insofar as her character is concerned. Ranka can sing, Ranka can captivate the attention of an audience, Ranka is IN LOVE with Alto, Ranka can stand up in the cockpit of a fighter plane, flying into a battle zone and sing. I think given all of this - Ranka can also have sex and kiss people if she wants to. In a fictional world where we accept that the character of Ranka has all of the traits that she has - then of course she can also be a woman. And of course guys can also wish they had a girlfriend like her. Is it moral and proper to present such a character? I say yes - first of all - plenty of teenagers are smart, mature and courageous. And they also fall in love. (Here I'll note that you failed to tell me if my memories of my high school sweetheart constitute "child pornography" and "pedophilia" since I happen to remember he as a beautiful under-age girl that I was sexually active with when I was also under 18. Is it not clear to you that now, being 30 - I still remember her in my mind as a 17 year old girl? And therefore as a 30 year old, I apparently have memories of a "child pornographic nature" in my head - if you're rigid world view is correct. But I of course don't believe that. I think that we need to be careful applying rigid stereotypes. Anyways - so - for you - it's ok for a little boy like Luca to fly a murder machine (mecha) and kill other beings and be exposed to war where people are dying bloody deaths all around him. But - for Ranka to be smart, an excellent singer, an ambitious character and a young woman with budding emotions who is in love and curious about sex...that's child pornography? It makes no sense. Why do you assume that the age group of Macross Frontier watchers, if it falls below 18, is not sexually active? I'm sure there are 15 and 16 year old boys and girls out there who are in love with eachother and who also enjoyed watching Macross Frontier and who see themselves in the young characters like Ranka - who are falling in love for the first time, who idolize beautiful and glamorous women, who are shy and unsure about whether they fit the societal norms of physical beauty, who have dreams and ambitions. You are of course right - there IS a ton of ways to show that Ranka acquired self-confidence without showing her naked. But - this is different from saying that showing her naked is ONE of those ways. Isn't it? Can't it be? Doug - your description fits ROBOTECH. A child sits down expecting to see cool mecha in action, but in the midst of this excitement gets this crazy love triangle and some girl's naked butt in a shower scene. Why is it that when a kid sees this in Robotech - it's good, but when a kid sees this in Macross Frontier - you say it's bad? I haven't watched Family Guy - so I don't understand the comparisson. But I generally get what you're saying. Seriously though - if you think that being a pedophile means having a serious talk with a young child about sex, then fine. Don't talk to your children about sex. Let the media, people in school, movie stars, rock bands, peer pressure, and strangers educate them about sex. That's your right. Me - personally - if I had a kid (and I sort of do insofar as my girlfriend's daughte is my step-daughter) - then you bet I'd try to educate her - not just about sex, but about men and women and relationships and love and emotions. Young teenage girls require adult guidance. If a a young teenage girl sees that an adult reacts to the subject of sex by not discussing it and by insisting that it is taboo and not to be talked about - then they will either seek out information elsewhere (for better or for worse), or they will grow up to be stinted in their ability to live full, normal, healthy and happy lives. I'm not even talking about basic stuff like sexually transmitted diseases. I'm mainly talking about knowing your own emotions. If a father is going to teach a boy how to be a man - a father has to teach a boy to know when his dick is talking and when his head is talking. Otherwise the boy's dick is going to get him into a helluvalota trouble. Meanwhile, it would help if the boys' mother was a good example to the boy of how a good woman should be towards a man. If a father wants to teach a girl how to be a woman - a father has to teach her about boys, about immature boys, about self respect. And a mother needs to teach a girl about how to chose the right guy, about how to deal with men, and about all the stuff I personally don't understand about women and leave to women to talk about amongst themselves. What's the alternative? The alternative is kids without families and without guidance. Is that what you want? And this brings us back to Macross Frontier: the whole story is - amongst other things - about Ranka maturing into a young woman, falling in love, having to compete for her new love with an older woman, having guilt about her boobs not being big enough as what the "norms" demand - a whole ton of stuff that is very important to young girls. Your reaction to Macross Frontier is immature because you keep harping on this naked scene at the end as if it was the be all and end all that defined the series, and as if young kids would never get anything else out of it except "ooh!! naked girl!!" Maybe that's the lesson that they learn at the Bendo Household, where Doug Bendo ignores all of the other interesting stuff and focuses in on the nudity and says "look - that's child pornography! You wanna stay away from that." Again - ok - you are the king of your castle dude. But don't say that the law of your house and your personal ethics should be the law of the land and obligate everybody else. I agree with you Doug. 100% - seriously. It is true. I as a Macross fan think that the beauty of the human female body and the beauty of songs are more powerful than bullets and nuclear bombs and can change the hearts of enemies who might look different and act different and have different beliefs but who, if given the chance, can live peacefully with their opponents. I think combat mecha should have their missiles taken out and speaker pods installed and that they should sing to their enemies. I think that, during World War I, when German and British troops stopped killing eachother on Christmas and instead came together to eat, share cigarrettes and sing Christmas songs - this was better than killing eachother. But then a Robotech fan in the form of a Commanding Officer came to them and ordered that they get back to the killing - and they stopped singing Christmas Songs praising the Prince of Peace, picked up their guns and smashed their brains. Now their great grandchildren like to visit eachother's countries and enjoy eachothers food, music and culture. Real shame, eh? Pete

REPLY TO DOUG BENDO PART 1 Sorry I was away for a while. I was busy taking the "ex" out of "ex-girlfriend." Now, back to Doug Bendo - who is quoted below. ALL TEXT IN QUOTE BOXES IS FROM DOUG BENDO This Response is split into parts because the Forum informed me it was too long for one post. First, I do appreciate that at least you're writing longer posts rather than just a one paragraph response. As such, I'll respond in kind, albeit I still think it would be better to just reference specific quotes, the way I'm doing it. Anyways - here goes: You have every right to debate however you want. But don't you think it makes things easier for all of us to quote the specific argument you're reffering to - otherwise it's easy to misunderstand eachother. Of course, I personally have nothing against labeling your debate style "robotech style" - it is Robotech debate style: sloppy. But - ok. Your choice. That's a cop out - but even worse: it's illogical. Doug - if you have 10 pages worth of amazing legal and philosophical analysis that will shut me up, prove I'm wrong and end the debate - then wouldn't it be more productive for you to spend some time writing 10 pages worth of perfect proofs that would be absolutely irrefutable - and then you would never have to debate this subject again. If you don't write 10 pages worth of corrections to my views - then in the long run you will waste more of your time, because you will keep having to write these mini-rebutles that you're coming up with - which don't satisfactorally deal with the issue. Therefore, if you're worried about economizing your time - might I suggest that you give a coherent 10 page argument that is so emminently logical that it will be impossible to refute, and save yourself the future wasted time taken on responses which are not exact, detailed and logical? But of course - we know that this won't happen. Why? Because the fact is - you couldn't come up with two pages worth of coherent arguments, let alone 10. Thus, the "I won't waste my time" line is just a cop out, sadly, and not a misunderstanding of the economization of time. I am a liberal insofar as "liberal" means "believer in Freedom." I am a conservative insofar as we are conserving a culture of freedom. I am a progressive insofar as I think it's good to improve things. I am a reactionary insofar as I think it's not good to favor the new over the old simply because it's new I am... Do you see where this is going? Let's just deal with the arguments and not the labels. Labels are used by political parties to get people to think in simple stereotypes and mindlessly hate the other side. That's what my experience has taught me, and that's why I stay away from labels. I agree. Your snappy reply proved that all my efforts to build a logical, reasonable argument - and all my hopes to engage you in a reasonable debate with such arguments (note I say that I hoped to engage you in a reasonable debate - NOT that I hoped to convince you to accept my opinions) - all of those efforts I made were met with a response from you which can be summarized as "well you're a liberal!" So yes - my plan of trying to have a reasonable debate didn't work. I agree. Split hairs you say? Let's be clear about something: Unless I a misinformed, your position is that the scene in question from Macross Frontier consists child pornography, and therefore by definition is illegal. By definition - it is also punishable by 20 years or more in prison depending on the state and statute we're talking about. So forgive me for "splitting hairs" when the issue is whether Macross fans should all be thrown in jail. If we're just talking about tastes - then there's no reason to have this debate. If you just say "I Doug Bendo think Macross Frontier is over-sexualized trash" - then ok. Fine. I disagree, and everybody has an opinion and we can discuss it in the sense of just learning other people's impressions. However - if you're going to argue that the content is illegal - then you're basically saying that all of us should be thrown in jail. You're also publically admiting to watching something which, in your opinion, is illegal child pornography, which puts you in a bit of a bind - but let's let that slide. The point is - what you call 'splitting hairs' is exactly what people do when they try to demonstrate that something should not be illegal. You Robotech people have a very strange way of doing things. Most fans from other anime or other cartoons, movies etc just have opinions. They might even disagree very vehemently, but they don't want the other fandom labeled illegal. They don't think it's a good idea to try to shut down people who disagree with them by trumpeting that the other guys are "illegal." However, with Robotech fans there is a strange pattern: On the websites you control - if anybody disagrees with you effectively - BAN! On general issues of differences of opinion and interpretation - your opponents are ILLEGAL! This is kind of like Harmony Gold who, whenever they see that another company is building a superior toy to the stuff Toynami puts out, and people are buying and selling it - tries to make it a legal issue. Point: I think you need to either learn the difference between tastes and matters of law, or - if you are serious in wishing to pursue the argument that there is illegal content in a world renowned television series from Japan that a lot of us happen to like very much then accept the fact that people will in fact "split hairs" about a great many things trying to convince you that you are wrong. You know what Pornography is? You have perfect knowledge of the "norm" and the "climate of the context that everything is being put in" ? Congratulations - you're wiser than the majority of judges that sit on the Supreme Court. Why - you are so wise, that I think you can apply for a job with the Taliban. They also know what pornography is, have perfect knowledge of the "norm" and the "climate of the context that everything is being put in." That is why they have done such a great job keeping women in potato sacks and making sure that every pretty girl with quickly be equalized with their grandmother's looks via a vile of acid. Come on - let's be serious here Doug. Pornography is a catch all that means nothing. Child Pornography is ONLY illegal because there is a presumption that a child is not fully aware of what he or she is doing and that adults exploiting the child for sexual purposes are violating the child's freedom to choose. You DO understand that teenagers having sex is not illegal? Yes? You do understand that the "illegal" part of Child Pornography is the part where children are presumed to be forced against their better judgment (which the law presumes a child to lack) to take part in sex acts without their concent (since it is assumed that a minor is not mature enough to understand what he or she is concenting to). You do realize that the basis of all sexual criminal offenses is a VIOLITION OF THE WILL OF A ANY HUMAN BEING. It is NOT the act of sex? You argue from a perspective which seems to suggest that you know what Pornography is (which is actually not easy to define at all in contradistinction to erotic art or sexualized art), AND that the REASON Child pornography is illegal is the "pornography part." Actually no. It's the "child" part that's illegal. Kind of like: Child drinking, Child gambling, Child labor, Child.... see the pattern here Doug? Drinking, Gambling, labor and all other things that adults are allowed to do are things that free people can do and take responsibility for and do because they choose to do it - And nobody has the right to tell them not to. Children, the assumption goes, are not mature enough to understand what is happening and therefore cannot do these things until they grow up. Now - there is a legitamite debate about the extent to which the "legal age" for various things should be lowered. For example - in the United States, an 18 year old can legally kill foriegners in a war and fly nuclear bombers. But he can't have a beer. He can vote on which person should be trusted to be in charge of a nuclear arsenal, but he can't go to a club and get smashed on vodka and dance to club music. There is actually also debate about whether or not Children have rights via their parents - there have been cases of children suing their parents. These are all debatable issues because there is no scientific basis for stating that maturity and conscious volition start at the age of 18 or 21 or 14. There IS a common sense regocnition that little kids can't think for themselves and therefore have special protection. Ironing out the details - "splitting hairs" as you call it - is exactly what free democratic people do. But I guess if you live in Harmony Gold/Robotech world - then all you need to do is ban people who disagree and harrass and mob people with threatening letters telling them to stop selling toys which happen to be better than the ones' you're peddling. Got it. Pete (Continued Below)

Doug Bendo: 1. [A personal history - not meant to be debatable - just meant to set the record straight - don't debate it because it is against the rules to debate!] Disclosure to Doug Bendo: I'm a conservative Republican. I voted for George W. Bush ...TWICE! I voted for Ron Paul in the last primaries and grudgingly voted for McCain in the last election because I like Sarah Palin. I also worked for Pat Buchanan back when he ran on the Reform Party ticket. I never voted for a liberal in my life, although I did think the impeachment of Clinton was wrong on constitutional grounds and I respected Howard Dean's candidacy way back when, because he was a Democrat who stood for principles (even if I disagreed with them). 2. [Clarifying opinions] Just because I believe in the US Constitution and freedom of speech doesn't make me a liberal, and arguing for individual artistic freedoms doesn't make me a "liberal" either. And arguing that people who create erotic art or art with sexual content are also defended under the Constitution and have the same freedom as your local Pastor doesn't make me a liberal either - unless, you meant to call me a classical liberal - but I doubt YOU are even cognizent of the distinction - so we'll let that slide. In fact, I now have personally come to believe that labels like "liberal" and "conservative" mean NOTHING. You are either a decent, honest person who believes in human dignity and freedom and who tries to argue the merits of a case and acknowledges that sometimes people of intelligence and good will disagree on reasonable grounds - or you are something else. Please don't try to label my opinions as "liberal" or any other kind because - especially in this day and age - that's just confusing. That's meaningless. Let's just look at the merits of the issue. 3. [The point] You aren't replying to the merits of the issue. Notice how I QUOTE you whenever I reply to you. Please go back, read my posts, and quote the portions you want to reply to. Don't think that writing a snappy one paragraph response to the several pages worth of arguments I have made will do anything except demonstrate that you either willfully ignore arguments brought up against you, or that you don't understand them. When you quote my arguments that everyone can read on the previous pages - and when you make specific counter points to those arguments - I will be more than happy to continue debating you. Until you reply specifically to those arguments - I'm just going to let them stand. I'm not going to reply to silly points about my "liberal spin." Pete Off to work

I understand you have a difficult time understanding - because you're new here and probably never read any of my posts in which, from time to time, I give my basic number 1 reason why I dislike Robotech. I will repeat it for you here: My biggest problem with Robotech has nothing to do with the show, or the movies, or the fans. It has to do with Cease and Decist letters that HG sent out to small retailers like Kevin from valkyrieexchange.com and to big retailers like Bigbadtoystore, which at one point announced to people that they wouldn't be able to sell Yamato valkyrie any more (they have since obviously sensibly come to the conclusion that they legally can sell Yamato valkyries). That's it. That's my only true grudge with them. It's a grudge because I think that HG are using bully tactics to threaten people who just want to enjoy their human rights to chose which products they want to buy and what franchises they want to give their money to. I have never written definitively that Robotech sucks - I would never make a definitive argument to that extent because to do so with any credibility - you are right - I'd have to watch all of it. I have also on numerous occasions praised the Palladium Role Playing games and talked about how I played them as a kid. I never saw Robotech as a kid because it wasn't syndicated in the part of the USA I lived and by the time I got into Macross, Robotech was this vague thing that "also" was out there. Finally - I have read three of the novels (Zendradi Rebellion, Planet Killers (?) and Masters Gambit). I wouldn't ne so hostile towards the Robotech franchise if HG didn't flex its' muscles towards retailers the way it has - but since they have, I hold an especially negative view of them because I think people should compete based on the merits of their product and not based on bullying tactics and legal threats. I wouldn't have anything against watching it as such - and I probably would have watched all of it and most likely been more enthusiastic about it if not for what HG has recently done. That's my view in a nutshell. It's a good analogy, and I understand it on a personal level since I feel that way about Transformers and other shows from the 80s that I grew up on. Robotech wasn't one of them, so I never had this "problem" of "learning the truth" Some other members on this baord had childhoods similarly untainted by Robotech - Gubaba for example has written about how he knew full well that Macross was a different entity when he was a little kid too. Anyways - I hope I've cleared up any misconceptions. I do admit that I made a lot of fun of Robotech and say a lot of critical things about it - but look...have you ever seen the Chinese Bootleg version of Star Wars? Ever read the crazy subtitles to the Chinese dubs? Now - as a Star Wars fan who has watched the original - are you going to tell me that I need to watch the bootleg subs/dubs of Chinese Pirate Star Wars - ALL TWO HOURS OF IT - to criticize it? I don't think so. Robotech is, ultimately, a bootleg of Macross. As I have written before - I do appreciate the original intention that Macek had of bringing anime to the USA and I am aware of the requirements syndication wrought on the effort and what was behind the choice to merge three seperate anime. Fine. Nevertheless - from my point of view - I watched Macross. I like Macross. Robotech has nothing to do with Macross, except that it is an American bootleg of Macross. A Macross fan in Japan does not need to watch Robotech and formulate an opinion on it in order to be able to say "I like Macross better" just like a Star Wars fan doesn't need to watch the Chinese Pirated Bootleg Star Wars in order to say "I like George Lucas' version better." This isn't an equal competition between two different stories or two version of a story. This is the original Macross which is a totally seperate entity vs the American bootleg of which the best thing that can be said was that it was a good idea (bring anime to America) for its' time (pre-internet 80s) that went horribly wrong for reason that are not entirely Macek's fault. Pete

Ok - so episode 6: Not the fan service episode I was expecting; but a good, serious episode nonetheless. I'm going to review this on a character by character basis: Gamlin: This episode does a very good job of showing us how Macross 7 avoids any easy, one dimmensional definitions of characters. At the beginning, Gamlin comes off like a stalker or something. There are hues of Guld from Macross Plus in this scene, as Gamlin sits in the dark in his army fatigues, his face twisted in anger, trying to find out basic facts about Bassara and his valkyrie. But, just when we think we've got him pegged as an angry stalker, Gamlin shows his highly professional and intelligent nature as a soldier - he spots a civilian craft that looks suspicious, runs a computer craft, pursues with stealth, and decides to forget his day off in favor of his duty. And just when we have him pegged as a professional and dedicated soldier, he is again shown in a bad light - namely - he's a completely a-social prude who doesn't know a thing about music. Although, when he talks to Bassara in the dark, and Bassara notes that he doesn't seem to know anything about Rock'n'Roll, Gamlin - speaking for Macross 7 Haters everywhere, trembles and says "On the contrary. I have listened to a great deal of it. In fact, I was forced to!!" This is a great scene. And then, in the end, Gamlin shows his courage and willingness to sacrifice himself - or at least keep fighting. And lastly - Gamlin also shows he does have a sense of honor because he admits "Looks like I owe him" with regard to Bassara. So - very very diverse showing of Gamlin. All the stuff I hate about him + all the stuff that is undoubtably good abou the character.... Bassara: Now this episode is great because unless you're blind - you realize what's going through Bassara's head: "What am I supposed to do? If I didn't fire the missiles, innocent people would have died. If I don't fire the missiles, Mylene and this Gamlin dude are going to die. But how am I supposed to prove that war is pointless and get these enemies to listen to my love song if I keep firing missiles? What do I do? What do I do?" Bassara misses his cue - he's upset, he looks pensive and mad. The episode ends with him once again firing his missiles - this time fully aware of it - to save Gamlin and Mylene, and then - he's strumming his acustic guitar at the feet of his valkyrie wondering what to do. This is GREAT character development guys. It shows Bassara is a dynamic character and that not only is his problem 'finding a sound to reach their hearts' - but he needs to make a choice: a HARD CHOICE. He needs to decide - what is he going to do with those missiles he constantly uses because the situation constantly seems to demand it? And you all know the choice he makes - he removes the Missiles. But let's be clear - this episode proves that Bassar doesn't make the choice lightly. What else? Well - we have Fanservice Macross 7 style - in other words a shot of Mylene's upper head, a shot of Mylene's hair, a shot of the shower. But sadly - no sexy Mylene shower scene for you!! Happily - we do get this nice sentimental scene - and I'm like Kyon from Haruhi Suzumiya - I like girls with long thick vivid hair who then go and put it up like this - so Mylene: you look beautiful: (Wonder what picture Shiroth will focus on?) So - anyways - that's basically it. I guess we can also note that Gigil thinks he's acting independently, but he's just a pawn again - a decoy to divert the attention of the UN forces while the Vampires make their get away with the Saxophonist's spiritia... Oh - speaking of which: I really like the variety of music here. Fire Bomber and then that K'on rock type stuff, and then this Jazz dude. And I also like how Gamlin suddenly lightens up when the Sax starts playing and says "this sounds nice" - it underscores that he actually DOES have musical taste - and good music taste. He's just not broad minded. Want an example of broad minded? RAY - Ray really enjoys the sax, but he can also rock with the best of them. And finally - last thing: This episode teaches us that it is NEVER safe to follow the government's seat belt laws. That poor guy in the escape pod was clamped down by his seat belt and therefore couldn't dodge spiritia sucking vampire beams which got him. So remember hids: Wear your seat belt if you want to - but don't let other people make safety decisions for you because your seat belt might just end up immobilizing you and making you a victim of Vampires from space! Pete

Huh. I didn't know thatl, since I never really watched Robotech - just watched the opening and snippets of two episodes (one where Lisa is saved by Rick from the hands of a dead Zendradi and says something like "Oh Rick! I've always loved you! Hee hee hee!" which is so much worse than "Leave me Hikaru! I have lost the camera and failed my mission" speech, which is followed by Hikaru saying "I won't leave a girl behind!" and Misa smiling because Hikaru looked at her as a woman first, and an officer second - such a touching moment.... the other one being when Alaska base was nuked and Hikaru again came to save Misa - and again I found the Robotech version corny).... But - yeah. I didn't know that about Robotech Minmey. I just assumed based on Doug Bendo's extremist position that naked female characters in a cartoon who are under 18 are pornographic would kind of make it necessary for him to insist that Minmeny in that shot is over 18. But...that would be expecting logic out of his position I guess Pete

D'oh! I spent the whole day arguing with Memo and Doug Bendo and forgot about my duties in this thread!! Gomene!! Last Friday it was Shinji that made me late, this Friday it was Robotech ! But - I'm going to bed now with my laptop and will watch episode 6 there! And, Big Power in the Sky willing, my mobile internet won't decide that it can't recieve a signal where I sleep (it does that sometimes - insisting that I go sit at the desk which is like two frickin' feet away)... Anyways - ending a hectic day with episode 6 of M7 ain't bad! I just hope this is the riviera ep and we get to see that hot Bridge Bunny!! Hopefully be right back with a review. Pete

Wanzerfan: In Robotech -yes. In Macross - no. But if Doug gets out of Save's question by saying "she's 18 in Robotech! So that's not kiddie porn!" then that's really lame. It's lame because the footage is the same thing - her naked ass. And in Japan, she was also at the age of concent. So if you can say "In Robotech - that scene isn't kiddie porn because she's 18 but in Macross, the exact same picture IS kiddie porn because she's 15" then... that means, to quote Bill Paxton: "Hey - I think this guy's a couple can's short of a six pack!" Pete

EXO: Well, having taught english as a second language to people, I am accustomed to people having really poor language skills. I understand Doug is from Ohio apparently and Memo is from CA, so I shouldn't be tolerating their lax writing skills as much as I am - but...I dunno...I guess I've just conditioned myself to be tolerant of poor english since I'm surrounded by it on a daily basis. I also teach mentally handicapped people - so again, I am used to sitting down with a person who sounds seven times worse than that Corky guy from that TV show (forgot what it was called). Yet I still have to figure out what these folks are trying to tell me and find some way to teach them something. So I guess when I see Memo and Doug's posts - my experience working with handicapped people kicks in and I'm able to basically figure out what it is they're saying. It's just too bad they don't try to expand their knowledge like my students do. That's actually the real problem - not their bad english. Pete

I totally agree with your memories of Michigan in 1999. I was finishing College and we probably lived an hour away from eachother back then. "Relaxed, successful" and "carefree" are all words that I would use to discribe life in Michigan back then. It was AWESOME. I agree with the comparisson. While I have sentimental fond memories of 1999 like Ghost Train up there - in general, I agree that the 80s were better. GT - I was born in 1979 - but I remember the 80s perfectly. First, I remember the contrast of bread lines when I was a really little kid with living in America when my family immigrated and therefore having food on the table. And then there were all these sweet cartoons on TV and all the great toys in the stores and life was good. There were heroes on TV. Not just the cartoons - but I remember watching things like the Incredible Hulk with Bill Bixby in it - that show was so awesome. I even remember when Lou Feringo was on Mr. Rogers. The 1990s sucked as a decade in terms of culture. They were all about rejecting the 80s - rejecting tv shows and movies with heroes for tv shows with environmentaly friendly multicultural characters. Case in point: GI Joe. Does anybody remember Eco-Warriors or what ever that was called? I'm not even gonna mention Captain Planet, which had to be the stupidest garbage in the universe - but GI Joe is a good measure of what started happening back then. Lots of TV shows tried realy hard to show how conscious, hip and trendy they were and they stoped being interesting because they got too political. But then again .... I was actually lucky. I spent most of the 1990s outside of the USA, living in Poland and in Switzerland. In Poland, especially, the 1990s were like America in the 1980s. All of the stuff that was popular in America in the 1980s came to Poland in the 1990s - but it was all fresh and new. Also, since the whole government system (not just comunism - but the state in general) pretty much collapsed in the 90s - there was sooo much awesome freedom. The center of Warsaw looked wonderful - there were thousands of outdoor street markets and street merchants selling stuff from every where in the World. Then Poland became "European" and "respectable" and now the center of Warsaw sports some hotels, a big shopping mall, and traffic jams. I miss the street vendors - they were cleared out to make room for "orderly" society And of course - you can't buy jack in the stores now - I have to import everything because stuff here is taxed to death.... grumble... But back in the 1990s - it was awesome. There were no taxes really - not like today - and you could buy ANYTHING. I mean - ANYTHING. And there was revolution and rebellion and a sense of adventure in the air. So - I had it good - the 80s in the USA rocked. The 90s in Poland rocked. the Decade That Dare Not Speak Its Name, however... namely 2000-2010... well..... I spent some of this decade living in the USA - and it's like I was on a different planet than the one I remember - like I was in Honduras or something.... Just felt wierd - everything seemed unfamiliar I also spent a good chunk of this decade living here in Poland...and actually - that was awesome again because I spent 5 good years with a girl, forgeting about the outside world and just being in love.... But in general - I will say that I agree with Time Magazine naming this "The Decade From Hell" - so much bad stuff across the board happened. I want it to be over - and I want to have a good decade again! Pete

I dunno I'm so underwhelmed It's like Cpt. Donovan all over again. To me - Robotech fans are the most incomprehensible fandom out there. I mean - even the lousiest cartoons have fandoms that make sense, because usually if a cartoon is camp or something, people can appreciate its' campiness. I have never ever encountered a fandom that I didn't understand - in the sense of understanding why the like what they like and what might ake them very enthusiastic about it. But in the case of Robotech -it's like something inexplicable. I watch something like Shadow Chronicles and it's like - you know, technically it's not horrible - but it certainly isn't unique, it's not a masterpiece either in animation, story telling - nothing. Beyond that - what does Robotech have? The original 85 hack job - which to me is totally uninteresting because I just prefer the original Japanese anime. The novels? If I'm bored and I want somehing light then fine. I can read those. Not hard on the brain - although even then I find myself mildly more interested in "Macross saga" novels then in the other ones... But....these guys are Robotech fans - supposedly like really big time. And they keep dissapointing. Wierd obsessions like the stupid lenght of the SDF-1 - which is just the most retarded thing to argue about. More retarded then even the "MF=porn?" question because I can VAGUELY see how it is possible to steer the MF=Porn? issue into something ressembling a reasonable discussion - namely we can discuss fanservice and sexualization in anime - something which CAN be discussed intelligently without calling people pedophiles as we've proven in other threads (like the Itano thread). I guess it's like Seto's feeling when he debates Memo about the court case. Memo keeps ignoring Seto's argument - that there's no Court Order regarding the main issue, but just a denial of some technical motion. Memo acts like the fact that there was a settlement rather than explicit Court Order in favor of HG is the equivalent of an explicit Court Order. The two keep talking past eachother. Except that Seto actually ACKNOWLEDGES the words Memo writes. Memo just pretends Seto never writes his conclusions. Now Doug Bendo comes along. And it's just Cpt. Donovan all over again. And all of these guys have ONE Modus Operandus: They ALL have ONE POINT consisting of UP TO THREE LAME ARGUMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE POINT. And they just repeat those lame arguments ad infinitum. Hell - it's sad that most of the criticism of my posts comes from people who farting agree with me. Anime28K (Mike) posted comments pointing out where my "child porn must concern living children not cartoons" argument had potential flaws. But you think Doug Bendo knew about the stuff Mike was talking about? No. Robowell28 pointed out my mistake when I babbled on about naked Ranka from the opening, when the issue was naked Ranka from the ending of the series. And this is basically what MW looks like. We all discuss and throw out ideas, and while it's true that some of us have pretty recognizable views (Pete loves Bassara, Gubaba and Keith have pretty clear disagreements over EVA etc etc etc) - often times we end up correcting eachother and pointing stuff out to eachother. I don't get the feeling there's any circular boring repetition going on amongst us. You say potato, I say tomato and that's it. But now we've had three Robotech fans come through here who explicitly came in to challenge our perceptions. And....well...? What? Nothing Seeing that a couple of half assed posts brought nothing but a tidal wave of questions from all of us - these guys....don't answer That sucks I'm dissapointed. If this goes on any longer - I'm going to become a Robotech fan out of pity. Seriously. I'm going to open my own Robotech website and TRY to find SOMETHING redeemable in that show - just to PROVE that it can be done. Pete