sketchley

[lecture mode] Uhm, excuse me Zinjo, but uhm if it's like not specifically stated, than it is nothing. Yes, that doesn't rule out the possibility that extrapolations could be true, but where your extrapolation leads to an entire fleet of piloted AFOS, I see a one-of-a-kind biomechanical autonomus AI that relies on a spiritia power source. Yes, I know I'm not 100% correct in part or whole, but that's not the point. The point is that we must stick to what is specifically stated, and leave ourselves open to further revisions at a later date that clarify if there are, or are not things in the Macross Universe. (In this specific case a fleet of Birdmen... or not.) Zinjo, I humbly recommend investing some of the plethora of energy, that you appear to have due to your tangents and extrapolations, into learning Japanese. No, I don't mean becoming fluent, but I mean getting to the point where you can understand the topic when none is specifically said (par for the course with Japanese.) I think it will improve both the arguements you present herein, as well as refine your tangents and extrapolations along lines more consistent with what has been specifically stated in Macross. It should also tone down the rudeness that you display towards non-Japanese who learn the language and by their grace, make the effort to translate it into English for the rest of us. Capiche? [/lecture mode] I feel like I'm at work dealing with a fractious student >.<

As I said: there were most likely wars or fights or fueds being fought by proxy with the Zentraedi between rival groups in the Stellar Republic, but there is nothing that specifically states that the Evil Series was created to beat the Zentraedi per se. Where is this stated? I'm not saying your wrong, but that this is the first time I've heard this; thus where?

From the Macross Compendium: Yes, there were most likely wars or fights or fueds being fought by proxy with the Zentraedi between rival groups in the Stellar Republic, but there is nothing that specifically states that the Evil Series was created to beat the Zentraedi per se. I think it's better to consider the Birdman to be a semi-AI controlled biological machine along similar lines to traditional Zentraedi weapons; especially the more biomechanical versions seen in DYRL. I don't think it's stated anywhere that the Birdman can destroy a whole planet - maybe vaporize everything on the surface over the span of a week or so. I can't remember exactly, but the impression I have is that Gavil was more like a combined entity, and not so much one taking control of the other. I copuld be wrong of course. I agree that there will most probably be big space monsters in Macross Frontier, too. On the one hand, it's the direction that the series has been taking ever since the DYRL revisions to the SDF:M designs. On the other hand, it's a lot easier and more visceral for the uninitiated audience to understand the threat. A space monster is definitely a lot more threatening than a battlepod. (What? I thought it was a good-guy mecha!)

If you watch the series the way it was meant to be seen, that is one episode per week; at most one per day, then it will grow on you. The story, as in plot, does improve considerably as the series progresses. However, it is probably best to consider it a story about a rock band first, and a mecha show secondly, than anything else. It also helps to have a fair grounding in Japanese culture, as there are some concepts in there that will seem strange or unexplained to the uninitiated. (This is of course true of all anime, but moreso in a character story like Macross 7. Less so in mecha focused series like Macross Plus.)

Make's sense, and it was an interesting read, too. Sadly, we need more of it, as so much in these forums is drivel...

Could be that he was explaining it for everyone else, and not the person that he was specifically replying to and/or the only example he could come up with was one that required a long explanation?

Macross, specifically SDF:M and Macross 7. I firmly recommend reading the Studio Nue canon timeline on the Macross Compendium.

In this day and age, that's not really saying very much. Two minutes isn't that long, and I think I've made longer home made animations than that. The animatics for movies like Star Wars III attest to quick turn arounds of quality animation. Remember - it's been described as a pilot film. Pilot films sometimes are radically different from the final production. The pilot film for Nadia of the Mysterious Seas comes to mind. Character design, mecha, and fashions all changed. Anyhow, starting from scratch is an intriguing idea, but I still firmly believe that the people behind it are busy. Hey, doesn't Shoki Kawamori have a movie coming out this month? I remember seeing a review in a how-anime/manga art is created, and his story boards for it (pretty neat seeing how they transformed it into CGA.

Agreed, though let's not neglect the canon and semi canon video games. Studio Nue timeline: + VF-X & VF-X2 Parallel Universe (Macross II): SDFM 2036 (you know, the Neld Fleet Invasion game and has the VF-1AR, 1JR, 1SR that provides the link between DYRL VFs and Macross II VFs.) Of course there are more (not to mention audio CDs, manga and so on.) It may actually serve this topic well for people to do research into those games as they *may* have stuff on the Inspection Army... er, Supervision Army. (Though not VF-X, VF-X2, M+ Game Edition or DYRL, beyond what is already present in the various anime.)

Uh... BV has released, and is in the process of releasing more than Honneamise and Jin-Roh: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=1371.0 (near the bottom of the first post; a list of titles currently being advertised on the back of Newtype.) To be honest, extras don't appear to be the norm with DVD releases; it's pretty much hit and miss with them. The same appears to be holding true of the BD releases so far. This all goes back to the market, and the demand for such things. My guess is that there really isn't that much, which equates to few (if any!) extras, and overall high costs per unit. Japan is an expensive country to live in, after all.

Space, able to afford it, and the kicker - free time to enjoy it. Most people don't have two of those, many don't have all three. Renato, I bet you get ugly looks from your neighbours, 'cause you're too noisy. うるさい外国人やな。　

Try Mandarake. In the Namba and Umeda stores, over the past 4 years, I have seen all of the main Macross books, except for THE Gold Book (I may have seen it once... can't remember with certainty) and most of the minor books. By main and minor, I mean by whatever must-have rankings English fans put on them. Also, I do not recommend making it public that you violated copyright and pirated a publication. It means a paper trail back to you. (IP code, ISP has your address, etc..)

I agree with the poor layout, less than commentable artwork, and a chronic problem with meeting publication deadlines. However all rules, no matter the system, have limitations and clunkiness. The lack of world information and errors is something that we can say in hindsight, given our unprecedented access to the original material and translations of it. At the time the books were written and published, there was literally nothing. Therefore, give them a break on it, and blame HG for whatever information or disinformation they got. I quite enjoy the Robotech RPG game, and ignore the clunky part of the rules. The end results were always fun. I agree with CoryHolmes's points too. Return of the Masters was a great addition to the series! Along with fleshing out of the in between periods with the comics Malcontent Uprisings and Invid War, those three created what the animation should've looked and felt like (a true mix of all three anime.) I don't currently play Robotech (I play Macross :!: ), but I have a soft spot for the game, despite it's hunched back, scars and warts. Perhaps that's because I don't play the rules literaly, and as is the case with ALL RPGs, it's the people you play with that make a game great, or not.

Guys, some important things that everyone is forgetting: 1) TV scheduling. What if instead of a crap time slot in the immediate future, they opted for a good time slot in the medium future. 2) production company scheduling. The company working on Engage Planet Kissdom is supposed to do Macross F, right, so when is Kissdom going to be finished? In addition, and I am just speculating here, Macross 7 was a rather lengthy TV series, right. Macross F is just as likely to be equally lengthy, if not more so. Therefore, extra time is needed to figure out the various plots, as Macross is definitely not written on an episodic maintain the status que formula.

Tachikoma? No, no, no! The Fuchikoma is where it's at! Not even the Uchikoma can compete!

Agreed. In participating in this debate, I have come to a greater understanding of the Zentraedi employing the tactics of stealth (thereby they could have FTL sensors with a range greater than 10 light years, but they choose not to use them for tactical reasons) with support from the anime. However, as a) it's off topic and b) most likely going to be picked apart and argued, I'm opting not to discuss it further.

What part of passive sensors are you not understanding?

FYI, active sensors, if obeying the laws of physics, have a limited range of effectiveness. Passive sensors (which light detection is), are "range-less", pending nothing else gets in the way or drowns out whatever is being detected. You'll also note the caveat that I put into the sentence. All the examples given of instantaneous detection outside of the half-light second range are still well within 10 light years, are they not? The only exception that comes to mind is when Diamond Force used the fold boosters to get to City 7. The fold boosters being maxed out at 20 light years, and the animation pretty strongly implying that they made a 20 light year fold. Which means that the City 7 was detected at about 20 light years distance. However, apples and oranges. We're not talking about UN Spacy technology after 35+ years of R&D here (and we all know that UN Spacy technology, in some aspects, has advanced much farther than Zentraedi technology.) We're talking about Zentraedi technology prior to contact with Earth. In addition, claiming that the Zentraedi have FTL detection capabilities with unlimited range is quite destabilizing, as it guarantees that they have god-like powers, being able to see all activity, everywhere. And given what we've seen, even with the more advanced UN Spacy technology in Macross 7, no one has had that ability in Macross. Within a finite range, yes. Therefore to clarify my point: yes, Zentraedi ships have FTL detection technology, but that FTL detection technology has an active range of less than 10 light years.

So far, you're the only one who's said that the Zentraedi fleet took 10 years to travel to Earth. Again, refer to the Compendium quote: It means that the fleet relies on sensors that detect phenomenon that travels at light speed and that they came right away by the means shown in SDF:M. (10 years later + 10 light years away = 0 years of travel) Yes, they were doing something else: an "enemy search operation for Supervision Army survivors." It's ok to be the Devil's Advocate. Though, for some, possibly many of us, some of the things mentioned are a given and we are aware of them. I think we all avoid them because it brings too much of the "all for nothing" aspect to the discussion/debate, and it makes reaching a concensus (partial, or otherwise), impossible.

From the Macross Compendium: http://macross.anime.net//story/chronology/2009/index.html Survivors implies the losers, and I read it as the surviving Supervision ships, after one or many a grand, spectacular final battle. I agree that my original post may be reading too much into their tactics (repair may be beyond their capabilities at the time,) but given that they are survivors on the run, and that we've seen the Bodolza Fleet, and at least one more grand Zentraedi Fleet in the area of Earth, my assertations are logically sound. Macross Compendium: http://macross.anime.net/story/encyclopedi...love/index.html Couple that with the use of the "Meltraendi" LST Carrier as a transport ship in the included-in-the-cannon-continuity VF-X2, and a bunch of questions get raised. Are the Meltraendi ships really UN Spacy ships? Are only some of them UN Spacy ships, and other ones non-Bodolza Fleet Zentraedi ships? Things would be a lot clearer if the Fleet of Strongest Women episode doesn't exist to muddy the waters... The only thing that is clear, is that different Zentraedi Fleet have different motifs and equipment.

Yes (what he said), and, rewatch the first few episodes of SDF:M. At the beginning of SDF:M, the Supervision Army is retreating from the part of the galaxy that the Earth is in. The Macross is a Supervision Gunboat deliberately abandoned and left on Earth as a booby-trap. It takes the Zentraedi 10 years to track the defold*, come to Earth, and spring the trap. By that time, humans have claimed the ship for their own, and reconstructed it; in the process, distracting and then destroying the entire Bodolzer Fleet in the area (100s, 1,000s, 10,000s, 100,000s??? light year area) and allowing the Supervision Army's booby trap to completely work. As the Supervision Army knows that the area that Earth is in is full of a Zentraedi fleet larger than whatever remnants they have left, and that they strategically retreated from the area, we, the viewer, know that unless if the Supervision Army are completely stupid, they won't be showing up in the area of Earth again. I've always interpreted what little we know on them, as the Supervision Fleet being composed of mostly Zentraedi ships and mecha. Therefore, they are evenly, or possibly slightly more well armed** than the standard Zentraedi fleet. The Zentraedi fleets have numerical advantage, with thousands, millions, possibly billions more ships, men and equipment. I see the war as that of attrition - whomever survives longer, wins. It also justifies the Supervision Army tactics that we've seen; retreat to a safe place to repair and if possible, expand. * No telling where the rest of the (small? large? entire???) Supervision battle fleet defolded, as it's stated that the Zentraedi didn't detect a fold away from Earth. The rest of the Supervision fleet must've gone a lot further than the 10 light year booby trap, from their last engagement with the Zentraedi that were chasing them, and came to Earth. ** I figure that the brainwash Protoculture both fix, and are actively trying to upgrade the equipment. Thus looking at only the state of repair, Supervision Army equipment is better than the same of the Zentraedi. Upgrades? Well, some questions need to be answered first: do they have something like a factory satellite or 3 Star at their disposal? If yes...

Got the latest issue of Newtype. My summary of the two Macross related articles in it can be seen here: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=1366

Glad to see Canada well represented in this thread. It looks like you hit the main points (and I'll repost them to clarify mostly for myself): - cost - immediate to really fast delivery of a large quantity - upgradeable - mission suited - politically acceptable supplier - source country willing and ready to sell all aspects of the military technology, and not withholding any of it (the list isn't in any particular order.) That pretty much sums it up. Sure, as a Canadian, I envy some of the strengths and capabilities of the other MBT out there, but when the reality check came, the best tank got itself purchased.

I saw this show in Discovery a couple of years ago. The hands down best MBT is the Soviet T-34; and it's not on the list! What's with that? More than 84,000 were built. Swarm! Swarm!

Agreed (that it's semi-off topic.) As I've "picked up" both languages, I probably may be biased in my opinion that despite both having difficult aspects, neither are more or less difficult than the other. Learning exclusively from anime is unadvisable. As Eugimon stated, the politeness level is generally quite low (either between peers, or deliberately insulting*). However, as a study aid to practice what's learned in a class** (listening training mostly), especially in a non-Japanese environment that many of you live in, it is worthwhile. Yes, watching TV is a good way to study, believe it or not. However, it means covering up the subtitles and relying on your ears and brain to figure out what is being said; not turning off your ears and reading English .) If you understand the story from previous viewings, it's also an excellent way to figure out the meaning of phrases, language use, and possibly even words and word (noun, adjective, etc.) endings. * Something that is lost in translation, perhaps moreso in dubs; because at least with subs, the texture of sounds in the language is still apparent. Two examples that come to mind are Ghost in the Shell (the movie), and Macross Plus. In GitS, the Japanese voice actor has a direct, all-business, coldness in her manner of speaking. The English voice actor has a laid back valley-girl manner of speaking. The English dub puts an entirely different characterization on the character. In Macross Plus (yes, this is despite the English dub being really good, with good voice actors), Isamu Dyson's English voice actor went for emotion and theatrics; whereas the original voice actor is cold and distant, and, especially in the opening sequence of the OVA, has a heavy "I'm beyond bored" feel to the way he speaks. The original Japanese actor is very, very subtle, but if one picks up on it, it adds a startling dimension to the character; opposing the English actors "I say I'm bored, but look at all the exciting fireworks!" ** class here could mean anything with a structured approach to language acquisition and functionality, such as private tutoring or books. Picking things up at random is not advised if you want to be anything more than joke! PS Darn it! I had wanted to make this post as small as possible... but it kept growing!