Zinjo

Egging? Last I checked I've been out of high school for some time. Pointing out a reocurrance of historical behaviour is what I've done. Wasn't looking for Waldo, just pointing out that he "could" exist. And point of fact, YOU didn't prove he didn't exist. Mainly because you couldn't and hiding behind a notion that in a circular argument that you were somehow exempt from "proving" your assertion becasue you "said so" is a cop out based on a falacy and the implied personal understanding that you could not prove your case anyway, with the absence of relevant official documentation. The Megaroad 01 fleet is not relevant to discussions about what a Megaroad 02 fleet could consist of. That requires an "assumption" and you are smart enough to know that. This is you.... This is me....

Ah, but there is where the reasonable doubt becomes most apparent. There is no canonical proof either way. Canon documentation ends with the launch of the Megaroad 01. As in the number of colony ships in that fleet and the support vessels included (via published image). After Megaroad 01, the constitution of the fleets are simply not known or recorded. All information is about the Macross's relationship with Spacy and Earth Defence. The "canonical proof" is simply not there to support either opinion, which is why I wouldn't attempt to prove either because the needed information is conspicuously "missing" for both camps. You can comment on my mental state all you like, it doesn't change that reasonable doubt exists. Each are entitled to their position and are free to debate until the answer is finally revealed on Thursday morning, despite the religious rantings of some...

If you are referring to the Purple/Burgundy (whichever) one fighting with Alto, then yes it is known to be the VF-27. A fighter built in the Galaxy fleet and apparently unknown to the Frontier fleet until recently. However, this question would be better suited to the dedicated Episode 12 thread instead of here. Regards

OK, I think you may be confusing my premise here. I am suggesting the possibility that SDF class warships were attached to the Megaroad colony fleets, not replacing the Megaroad colony vessels themselves. To clarify, an SD cannon's energy demands are supplied by a Super Dimension, the same area the ship travels through during a fold and the home environment of the PD entities that possessed the EVIL series bio-weapons created by the PC in PC 2871, many millenia before. It does not get its power to fire from conventional means and the later SD cannons use the same kind of powering systems discovered aboard the ASS / Macross. Your "lack of resource" argument really doesn't stand up to physical facts that the Sol Solar system has ample supply of raw materials to construct many fleets for a substantial number of years (even a substantial number of decades) before any need is required to procure resources from other colonized systems. To assert that the only reason SDF ships could not be built is because of a lack of resources is really not well supported by the physical reality of our solar system.

Ah yes Keith the ever present, "run away" when you are beaten. I remember it well... I have proven there is reasonable doubt which is all that can be proven given the available official information for either position on the question and in that I succeeded well. Anything else are circular arguments based on a "logical fallacy", that either position can be proven or disproven without specific information that directly involves the questions presented. You may try to dismiss the doubt and throw back handed comments about all you like, but the results of my point still remain... What Thursday will bring will be fun to watch, either way the pendulum swings, I too look forward to seeing what Kawamori has in store for us.

It's a valid debate and fun to boot... Naturally the question will be answered Thursday, but until then everyone can freely weigh in on the matter with their speculations...

Too late JBO beat ya to it...

You asked for reasonable doubt and got it. We've done this before Keith and I never forget what I post, so you asked for reasonable doubt and you got it. Trying to change what you asked for isn't going to work. What?! I don't recall saying anything about a secret? My point if you can stay with me here, is that no transforming aircraft in the UN Wars existed prior to Mac Zero in the official chronology. That didn't happen until after Kawamori revealed it in Mac Zero. "Deal with it", isn't that what you said? The crazy notion is to use an active military headquarters as a flying movie set! Hell why we're at it lets just open up the Pentagon because hey Hollywood wants to shoot scenes in the situation room of the building... Wow, that makes so much more sense... Yeah, considering I have friends in the film industry, I do see a difference, that with CG and in the Macross Universe holgrams, you can make a garbage barge look like the macross for a fraction of the cost and bother of launching a 1.2 km tall space fortress into space on a publicity stunt... Give ME a break! Again, trying to change what I asked for. I asked for a picture of the Megaroad 13. Is that the Megaroad 13? I own the Animation Materials for Mac 7 and no line art or pictures exist for that craft. Therefore you still haven't provided me with any pictures or lineart of that ship. You posted the Megaroad 01, wrong ship. I'm still waiting... No, there is reasonable doubt that there could have been more. Just like the VF-0 once was prior to 2002, nothing has been definitively stated either way. There was an American aircraft carrier called the Constellation? Not that I'm aware of... As for the "Macross" name: Why wouldn't they call an SDF ship the Macross? It is the symbol of SW1 and they'd all look the same to the untrained eye, just as all variable fighters are Valkyries in the universe eventhough only one bore the actual name. Then you take into account that all NMCs are named "Macross" with a numerical designation and now there is the Macross Quarter the latest transforming capital ship. If every transforming capital ship is given the name Macross, exactly what should they have called it? It wasn't built it was restored. The Megalord was built from scratch. I never intended to prove anything as I've stated all along, I have successfully brought reasonable doubt that it may not have been the only one. You can try as hard as you like to disprove the doubt... Good luck! By all your attempts at changing arguments away from reasonable doubt, you have not yet argued it is definitively impossible, since you can not. You can point to the compendium as much as you want, and I will too. Those empty pages do not prove one way or the other, and you will have to deal with that. This is why I only assert reasonable doubt, otherwise this becomes a circular argument of logical fallacy. At no point would I be so foolish to assert my opinion as fact, since the pendulum could swing either way by next Friday and the question will be answered definitively...

It is very helpful on these forums to add references to any assertions of fact (thank you Keith for that lesson). There is no reference material to base your "fact" on. Such information is not or perhaps has not yet been revealed. As I've already stated, that the PD didn't exist either until Mac 7, does that mean they never existed before in the universe? According to Kawamori they did. Exactly where do you get that information from? There was a moon base and a moon full of unmined materials, stations at several lagrange points in the system, a Mars base (well what was left of one after it was destroyed) with a planet as of yet full of untouched materials as well as asteroids. How then is it "logical" to say there wasn't enough resources?? We are dealing with the remnants of humanity which initiall numbered about a couple of million at best. They had to clone people to rebuild the population base. Now a responsible government tasked with sending out fleets of civilians to populate the unknown reaches of the galaxy would not see a need for more SDFs when the first one they had was so effective? Particularly when its very first mission went missing 4 years out? I am not seeing any logic in that assertion at all! "With the official information so far" that is the key to your statement and thus any assertion that no more could have existed cannot be supported as definitive fact. The possibility exists, whether it becomes fact, we'll have to wait and see...

ROFL! Why didn't I think of that....

In reality there really IS only one SDF1 Macross because no other ASS ships were known to be salvaged and then rebuilt, likely at Britai's urging. In that sense the Macross is still one of a kind. All the rest could only be mere copies of the original, not the one and only. Even the line art for the Megalord is distinctly different from the Macross. The Bridge tower is taller, there are two radomes instead of just one and the ship itself is 400m longer. Thus the Macross would continue to be a one of a kind original. That is an arguable point, except the Megalord was considered a Macross Class at the same time as the SDF-1 was being restored. So it could just as fairly be argued that it was considered the "bigger" sister ship to the Macross despite its completely human construction. LOL, that's why this thread was created, to keep from hijacking the episode thread, with a single aspect of the episode.

That's fine, I naturally respect your opinion. I for one used the modern CVNs as my example deliberately, to distance myself from any Trek dismissives. All evidence does not conclusively point to only 1 Macross Class vessel ever built (to be precise the Macross was more restored with human design elements as opposed to built from scratch). A second was on the way and was refitted as a colony ship. No mentions are made of the construction or lack of construction of further SDF battleships. Which is my entire point. The lack of definitive record leaves the possibility open and thus cannot be ignored or dismissed. Since SK won't be painted into a corner by his own chronology, I believe he keeps many areas of the history and universe open to future stories and interpretation (any good writer would, Ron Moore has mentioned this several times for his series). Is it the actual Macross? Possibly. Could it be another Macross class battleship? Equally possible. The preview leads one to believe that something has yet to be revealed and is left purposefully ambiguous to get a fanbase buzzing about the next episode and hopefully boost ratings at the start of summer break (granted in Japan that is pretty short before summer school begins). As for the Megaroad / Megalord comment, please clarify. http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...ross/index.html Megalord is clearly mentioned as the name of the second SDF (not finished as a battleship, but started as one nonetheless). http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...s/Megaroad.html Please note the "programmes" section where the name change is described after the order to refit. I will concede the Megalord battleship never launched as such, however that is not enough proof to conclude other similar ships were never produced either. Ultimately, if the ship found is indeed the Macross herself, I won't be crying in my beer. I will be keenly curious as to how she ultimately got so far from home...

Yeah, well I dropped the ball on that one...

Let's... Why didn't the PD use the Macross 5 Carrier, oh wait, wasn't it destoryed? I guess it's far too much of a stretch to expect a battle fortress to defend the civilians against would would most likely appear to be a revolt from within the ranks. Another possible scenario, is that it was destroyed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. Again the details as to how the population of the Megaroad 13 were captured by the PD has been left essentially blank. We only know they found Varauta, colonized it and then released the PD, that's pretty much it. **Had to add this here since I had too many quotes...Doh!

On the contrary, if the TV version of the SDF-1 is canon, then the designers of the SDF-2 made several changes to the original restoration designs, which became incorporated into the refit. The pictures don't lie... Exactly how do you know they "don't exist"? Was there a close up of those icons I missed? How can we be definitively sure that the SDF battleships were not incorporated into the Megaroad colony ships similarly to how the NMC is integrated into the City ship? How do we know definitively the ultimate size the Megaroad colony ships became? The Frontier is 3x the size of City 7, yet the overall shape and design is essentially the same and the Megaroad 01 was built on top of an existing chassis that was 1600m long and thus largely limited to that size at the time. You can prove that as effectively as I can prove my hypothesis. In two words, "you can't"... Prior to Mac 7, the Protodevlin did not exist, yet they do now, because that gap in the chronology has been filled, by the events of Macross 7. There is no basis to believe such things didn't happen either. There is a blank page were that information could exist, just like there was with the PD. This Macross book is still being written by SK and to imply that such a thing isn't allowed because it hasn't been written yet is pretty pompous for any fan. Sure I'll supply my pic when you supply a picture of the Megaroad 13 without one. Until such time, it could have happened! I don't recall saying they were going out uprotected, I said (it's all in the post black and white, try reading it), that they'd be additional protection. Yes, well the Terran solar system is has such sparse resources. Wish we had moons, asteroids and other planets to mine, oh wait! WE DO and crikey they are so much closer than systems several light years away... I think someone needs to get over themselves more than I need to get over the somewhat rediculous idea that a government sending out the last remnants of humanity would put off something like an NMC for twenty years to mine a few distant worlds when there are plenty of resources in their own back yard to do the same job... Macross Zero - SDFM has no mention of transforming aircraft engaged in combat prior to the VF-1, before the series came out. Such historical references did not exist prior to that show's production. Your point is invalid... A BIT?! This is a weak argument to support a weak premise. If Bodolza's ship was done with holography, it is more reasonable to conclude the Macross was too, not the other way around... In the most critical of terms, how the Macross ended up on film is simply not stated, therefore to assume it was used in the movie is all speculation, nothing less. The reasonable doubt is simply this: 1. The SDF-2 Megalord design took heavily from the SDF-1 Macross and from a distance would look the same. 2. It is not stated in any official documentation that only 2 Macross class vessels were built and no more. What is stated is that the SDF-1 Macross restoration was completed and the SDF-2 Megalord was half complete before it was refitted as a colony vessel. No where is it stated that these two were the last of that battleship class. 3. The witnesses identified a ship that "looked" like the Macross, yet we have no proof they saw any identifying markings on the hull such as the registry number SDF-1 or the name "Macross". With that ship being so iconic in the culture of the universe, what else would they have called it? 4. All counter arguments are based up the assumption that only one Macross class battleship was ever produced and that is simply not supported by official records, as they are definitive on the matter of how many more if any were built. Whether the Megalord battleship ceased to exist when it was converted is irrelevant. The construction was underway using the plans to build a battleship for 6 years. What ultimately happened to the chassis doesn't discount that plans existed to construct a Macross class battleship of completely human origin and were used in it's construction. Much like the NMCs are.

In an effort to move this debate to a thread outside the episode thread, let's move the discussion here.

Actually, Keith let's move this to the dedicated thread, my response will be there ... WTF-1 Thread

Ahhh, Keith, it's been a while since we last cross swords... The SDF-1 was a "restoration" of the ASS-1. The Megalord was an SDF built from scratch. You will note that the refit of the SDF-1 took many design elements incorporated into the SDF-2. I find it amusing that so many would support the idea that the "actual" Macross would be moved light years away from Earth for some fantastic reason as opposed to the far more logical idea that a predecessor class of SDF battleships would predate the NMCs. If the SDFs were "attached" to future Megaroad colony ships similarly to the NMCs, then that would make the New Macross Class colony ships less of a new idea (in universe) than we the fans have come to believe since Mac 7. I assert again, that it makes little sense for the UNG to figure out they need Macross Carriers to accompany colony fleets 20 years after the emigration program began. Kawamori may delve into the fantasic at times, but he's always been a logical story writer. I realize that such an idea is knocking over some people's altars, but SK has done that before and I expect will do so again in future. It is fan assumptions that the actual SDF-1 was used in DYRL movie (in universe) as Mac F established that it could have been a post production CG image overlaying a regular carrier in the fleet. In the chronology no mention is made of it actually being used in the film (any documented support of its actual use would be welcomed). I suggest the only real denial here is those who refuse to accept the possiblity that the ship found is NOT the SDF-1 Macross... Making conclusive statements, doesn't close the window of doubt, that only shows certain individuals have closed their minds to the possibility (which is fine, for them). The SDF-1 is certainly a one of a kind, since the SDF-2 was initially designed to be a larger version of the Macross design and it is entirely possible, that if my theory is correct, that any subsequent SDF battleships would be based on the SDF-2 Megalord designs anyway, not the SDF-1. Now on to the waiting...

Well it retained it's designation as an SDF, but you are right in that it was not a battle fortress anymore when it launched. I am of the opinion that the Ep 13 title is in reference to Global's final decision as Supreme Commander of Spacy to re-initiate the SDF program as additional defence for the Megaroad colonization fleets. Hence making them the pre-cursors to the NMCs. However, we'll have to wait until thursday to find out one way or another.

LOL. Kawamori will alway leave doors open, he likes leaving more mysteries than the answers he gives.

Yes, however the Megalord was considered a Macross Class ship, in the same entry as the SDF-1. The primary differences were the bridge and it's overall length which was 400m longer than the SDF-1. The SDF-2 was completed, just not as a Battles Fortress. It was converted into a colonization ship, under Global's orders. As for the fate of Global, he was installed as the UN Rep for the Eden system in 2014. He went into politics after Spacy.

Clearly the wording is meant to cause a "buzz" in the fan community. BSG did it all the time with ambiguous previews that were meant to bring viewers back with their friends. Brilliant marketing. Then again, a "song of the week" is also brilliant marketing-too bad Mac 7 didn't try that ! And this is the same universe that refers to all variable fighters as "Valkyries" when there was only one fighter called Valkyrie, the VF-1... It looks like the original Macross, so they called it that. I could look at the Nimitz from a distance and call it the Enterprise, yet the ship is still the Nimitz, am I right to insist it is actually the "Enterprise" because it shares a similar sillouette? That is why the discussion...

Point of fact is that the SDF-2 was under construction, not planned. However there is no mention of it being completed before SW1. Therefore it was 6 years into production before the Zentreadi first arrived. If one were to base construction of an SDF on the how long it took to rebuild the Macross at that time, it was approximately 60% complete by generous calculation - probably less, as they had to construct the chassis from scratch. The naming difference was decided in the Compendium by those with better translation skills and with access to better resources than I, so I go by their informed decision.

Megalord The "Megalord" was the battleship, the "Megaroad" was the colony ship built on the Megalord's chassis. Any other questions?

Really? Have any screenies, I totally missed that!