GuardianGrey

Greetings all, it has been a while. On the tech, some of it makes sense on how it's looking, though I still have questions. Beam Weapons On this, there has been no doubt on improvements. The flash-boil of a body to exploding via a focused particle beam (plasmatic) discharge was covered in a YouTube video on Doom's BFG1, if you are interested in the actual mathematics of. For unadulterated damage from an unfocused plasmatic discharge in real life, look at the aftermath of almost any lightening strike (Tree go BOOM due to flash-boil). My only main point of concern is that were are they getting the mass of particles for the beam/discharge from? For I haven't seen a tank with hydrogen in any diagrams near the units. Are they possibly using solidified Protons (light particles) for discharge, or 'borrowing' the mass for from super-dimensional space (kind of like 'Argent Plasma' for the Plasma Rifles & BFG in Doom)? Then, this has usually been wrote off for lower-powered beam/particle weapons, though with the level of juice being pumped out, Recoil in Space (non-atmospheric usage). If one thinks a focused beam of visible energy doesn't have the potential to incite Recoil concerns in Space, remember that unfocused Photonic energies from a star is enough to push a solar sailed craft away from the system center (given the right set factors for). Projectile Weapons To ditch ballistic ammo for railgun rounds seems to make real world sense, though the addition logistics (especially for an air-/space-craft) still makes it questionable to me. On the positive side for the Railgun; there is no space/weight taken up by the charge &/or casing for the ammo, leaving the penetrator itself (a plus in said crafts, were every cc/mg counts). This also doubles for the charge not 'cooking-off'/exploding (if solid-slug rounds, might not be the case for any HE slugs) if the ammunition is hit. Making of the ammunition is also streamlined to only making the penetrator itself, and not the added facilities & quality control for the charge (& its potential casing, if needed). The negative side on railguns; the weapon itself has to be very durable to handle the magnetic forces to launch the penetrator, with the added maintenance & weight of the coils to launch it (weight savings compared to a ballistic weapon might have been nullified). Then, the coils need a constant electrical supply to charge the capacitors in order to make the fields for launching the round, taking (assumed somehow) from the output of engines/reactors (already a balancing act with other systems). Even with Overtechnology can help with the durability, & if the foil quartz can amplify the reactors' output to mitigate that effect, it's a situation that the designers/engineers of had to look at. In the canonical Marcoss-verse though, only prior rail-guns I recall prior to this was with the SDF-1/SDFN-series & proposed SDF-2 (referred to as "rail-cannons" of 178 cm bore). We never seen these cannons in action/animation, and it seems the technology was dropped from inclusion in other capital ship designs. The other is in the Macross II Timeline, with the VF-2SS SAP (come with a "Medium" Railgun, option for a "Heavy") Frame & Other Systems Again, improvements and actually questions on stuff from a layman. Frames & Armor With the different types of energy conversion armor plating, it is clear that there has been development in this field, but what about internal structures? I was going through the Macross Mecha Manual, and noticed that the structure entry of the VF units (other than VF-0, -1 & -4) was only types of energy conversion armor. This leads into either two thoughts; 1) that space metal alloy frames are used & not reported, or 2) to save logistics on material acquisitions, the whole structure is made of. I'm of the opinion that it falls under the first, though other than the text difference between the VF-0 & VF-1, it seems that there has been no recorded improvements in the material for the internal frame structure. This might be due to something in the real world as well, as majority of a air-plane's structural integrity is in the outer shell of the craft itself. Flight Control & Electronics On this, I can not really think on adding to, the last innovations was the General Galaxy's BDS & the EX-Gear from Shinsei Industries/L.A.I. Corporation that I really know of, other than improvements of the flight control (like AERIAL II/III flight support AI) systems. Fold-Quartz Recalling that this crystal is needed for the ISC, it (the TO21 variants) seem to be in full use of newer craft, though it seems the other systems needing it are not widely used (namely the Fold Wave system, Fold Wave projector system, Fold Quartz amplifier & Fold Dimensional Resonance System; or are some of these the same systems under different names?) Multipurpose Container System This is an innovation that I Originally thought was a dumb Idea, though it is showing promise. Shout-Out Seems with the Sv-154 Svärd, JBO got their wish for a F-104 Starfighter inspired VF, which is not unlike the LV-7 Valorious Rapier "Excalibur" from the Air Cavalry Chronicles of the 1990s. Back to Topic (Evolved) Some Old designs could be revisited with the new tech. Heck, the original VF-1 has now EX designation; though, other than a cockpit change, I don't think those J-series fighters are any more than glorified Plus (VF-1X) Units. VF-0/VF-1 series Besides as total frame rework (like the difference between the McDonald Douglas F/A-18 A/B Hornet & the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, & that is with only a 17 years difference between first flights of; or the Northrop F-5A to the HESA Saeqeh, which has 45 years between firsts); the VF-0kai Zeke showed that it could be done (basically, it ended up mechanically being a cut-down YF-25 in the form of a VF-0), though it does not mean the idea would be really practical. VF-11 Thunderbolt This one, I am going to let die. Even if the MAXL main fuselage upgrades were made into the VF-11C's Frame, the level of new Tech would not be able to be incorporated into, I feel. VF-19 Variants Another one I will pass on trying to promote newer gear on, because they did so in canonical for most of it already. VF-22 Variants This one I think I could see the ISC installed (had originally a primitive version in the YF-21 & VF-22HG), EX Cockpit upgrade (like VF-171EX) & the space between the back engine nacelles could be placed a multipurpose container system (if not needed for structure/other reason). VF-3000 Crusader & VF/VA-14 Vampire Like the VF-0/VF-1 series, a full internal frame work-over most likely would be needed. Though, the size would allow components to be integrated more easily. The small Flip-up of the rear fuselage of the VF-3000 might be able to be made into a minor multipurpose container system. VF-XS/VF-2SS Valkyrie II series (from Macross II) I know they are not Canonical, but please here me out (using the Images from the Macross Mecha Manual as reference). With the current understanding of Technologies; the design allows for the back unit (in Red/orange & that flip-up like the original VF-0/VF-1 series) to be a version of the multipurpose container system, and the needed thrusters from move to the minor nacelle pods (in Yellow) on the back. The Cockpit would be simplified (I feel) by making it an EX-gear compatible (considering the follow frame of controls in are similar). Most of the rest to make it on par with a VF-25 series, or VF-31 A/B would be need debated. ____________________________________________ 1 = YouTube "The SCIENCE! - WTF is wrong with the BFG in DOOM?"

With all this talk that I seemed to turned-up on power; I did go looking for a real world formula to find out an answer for Seto Kaiba for the power generated from the EGF-127 conventional turbofan jet engines. I know that 1 Hp = 0.746 kW, supposedly... With simple equation1; I figured that the turbine were making about 9.280 kg (91.08 kN), 15180 kg (148.9 kN) w/ afterburner of thrust per... though after that point I got lost... I found this atricle explaining the mathematics, though I do not underatnd the calulations to find the answer... frustates me to no-end considering I liked Algebra... With the Shp (Shaft horsepower), it is easier to calculate the power from the reator turbines of the Destroids (assuing there is no gearbox between the turbine & magneto). Although, that means the original series Four Destroids were barely producing more than 2 MW of power, with the MBR-07 generating nearly 2.4 MW & while the HWR-00 was cranking over a whopping 8.5 MW. Even with the reactor upgrade, the ADR-04-Mk.XV is only producing roughly 2.6 MW of power. Comparing that to the reactor core of the FF-2001 (w/ 650 MW) seems vastly different, if my math is right... That would also seem to imply that the auxillary generators are only strong enough to get the units off the battlefront in the event the main reactor goes down. 1. kg / kN = 101.93497621517221645981615937623 EDIT= corrected mW to MW, Thank you JBO

Although the SHP (?) ratting for the reactors is up only 25%, the kW output for the auxiliary generator of the one used by the ADR-04-Mk.XV is upped over 86% over the Mk.X Though, we are not given the kW for the VF-turbines after the VF-1 to make a comparision for electrical potental, or the reactors output. Though considering that no one seems to really want to improve them (let us face it, the VF are cooler and how many UN ads show off the 'droids?). There also has not been a need to upgrade the reactor as much as the VFs due to them not having as many energy draining systems added to them. A scary thought; a MBR-07 upgraded with more modern (2040+) everything (armor plating, ordance & verniers) with a FF-2550 series reactor powering a PPBS. That most likely is true. though in theory it is easier to update a Destroid compared to a VF, due to the philosophy of their modular design. Need better armor platng? Just make sure it is molded like the old one... More fire-power required? Change out what is in the weapons mount... (as did with the Super Defender) The RX-78-2 line got my brain on the tangent of what if... What if a mecha-otaku in the Macross universe wanted to build a unit based of an older (any prior to 2009) anime series. The "Pimp My Valkyrie" is a partial example of, another would be someone trying to turn a Destroid Work into a VOTOM or Heavy Gear unit... That, or what the EW (Electronic Warfare) package is suppose to do... considering said unit (assumed) has a 3rd gen active stealth system... I know we have talked heavily on stealth; though has there ever been a unit in Macross that was made to look either bigger than it was, or more numberous (by manipulating sensor retuned for false positives)? I can not seem to find my refernce material for the real world tests using drones that had exaggerated radar returns do to their fuselage design (said unit radar return supposedly as big as the B-52 that launched it). On this, I could imagine the panic if a Ghost fighter with similar 'false positive' design showed up, though read on sensors like a VB-6 or bigger to the com-operator. Though I do have doubts (on what I know at the moment) that the YF-29 & YF-30 (or derivatives from) will make main-line VF status for the NUNS. because of the (supposed) rarity of the fold quartz in quantity for.mass production (considering that the YF-29 development was haulted in 2057, becuase of the lack of).

I would like to comment a few things... <=== Engine, Turbines & Powerplants ===> While I see were my misconception of the FF-2450 series having a flaw in its base design, my personal opinion is that it is still the majority of the issues for the VF-22 & VF-9. For both the FF-2450B & FF-2500E had issues with cooling while outside an atmosphere, because they utilized the air as a cooliant (not just the cooling system of the craft itself) as well as propellent. With the two models of the FF-2450 series, and I have not hear of any changes with the turbines to allow for the higher internal tempatures that risked melting down the core while operated at full in space. Though, an odd curiosity. The VF-19F uses the FF-2500F, which has a higher output (711.23 kn) than the E-model (662.18 kn) of the series, though no mention of any heat issues (considering the 19F is a space optimized varient). On powerplants, it seems the newer reactor cores are also utilized in the ADR-04-Mk.XV Super Defender & Cheyenne II. <=== Destroids ===> While it seems they have not had allot of screen time, it seems the ground pounders are not going away either. I also appologize for this divergence for the moment. Following the point of the prior entry, it seems the Destroids are not a 'dead' line of mechs... Heck, it seems by the last line of the description for the ADR-04-Mk.XV Super Defender, there may be an equal number (if not greater) of Destroids than VF in some fleet/planet garrisons. That, coupled with the Frontier's use of the Cheyenne II, it would not be hard to percive an Advanced Destroid & Drone defensive plan/responce. For mobility, that is a tough one to speak on. With the trusters & turbines that they have, any VF may get to a location faster than a Destroid, though the Destroid is ment to be in the area already for defensive responce. On ground speed & maneuvering, we lack information... If the original (tv) series data is applied, the MBR-04-Mk VI Destroid Tomahawk & lighter ADR-04-Mk X Destroid Defender (which both use the same leg assembly) would be able to run-down a grounded VF-1 in battroid mode. We do not know either how fast either of the series three models (ADR-03-Mk III Destroid Cheyenne & Cheyenne II) are on their rollers. Which leads to the spceulation... Even though not really armored in any fasion, could a Destroid Work unit use a gunpod in a last ditch defensive situation? (thinking back to the origins of the "Sea Bees") <=== YF-30 ===> I believe I read that this unit's pod is suppost to be interchangable, and one of was as an auxiliary propulsion unit. I maybe reading into this too deeply; with the FDR of the Chronos, the pod might be able to hold a Multi-use fold system powered by Super-dimensional energy?

Okay the first production series (and even mokey models) to me look like the rumble seat could bee added, and the tandem I can see too.... Though a six seater that can only do Fighter/GERWALK modes? LOL I do not know why I could see isamu taking a bunch of rookies out in said and the ones that don't puke during the flight he would have as his wingmen!

I am trying to get away from the turbines for a moment and thought of something. Both the VF-19 & VF-22 series lack a second seat that would be needed for quick/surprise 'rescue' operation that was supposedly a goal for Project Supernova (other than first strtike an 'enemy' operations area that is). Sure, the YF-19 has the option for accomodating a passenger in a rear rumble ejection seat, though this is not mentioned for any other of the 19 series. And I would like to know were s second person (other than lap) can fit in a VF-22. Seems like that oversight was finally corrected in the AVF with the VF-25, VF-27 & YF-29 (YF-30 is back to being for single operator only).

Well, considering this logically (sometimes counter-productive with fictional settings); The FF-2450B of the YF-21/VF-22/22S had turbine limitations in space due to not having the cooling while in atmophere (& potential of melting the reactor core). The VF-22HG has limitations on its FF-2450C while in space (could be assumed that the same issue as the B model) Excessive heat in a thermonuclear reactors is usually not a good thing (causing melt-down or explosions) The VF-9 seems to have less potential in its frame for the coolant loops to service, hence higher temptures are reached faster (& more chance of Boom!). So, yeah, I think it is a default internally of the (FF-2450) turbine series. Considering that other than the YF-19, no other of that series uses the FF-2200B turbine or had reported cooliant issues. The A & P variants use the lower output FF-2200, with none of the issues that the YF-19 had with the B model.

Hm... that maybe true & I used the wrong terminology. Though be it an atomic (fission) or hydrogen (fusion) bomb, the result is that both go 'big badah BOOM!' Same could be said of reactors going into uncontrolled chain reactions due to excessive heat build-up.

Perhaps if Macross were military conspiracy-theorist wank material like Metal Gear Solid... but surprisingly you don't find that kind of paranoia in US or Russian allies who are frankly glad to be able to purchase (or even customize) export variants, even if they're for previous-generation fighters. It's often a lot cheaper than trying to develop new aircraft on their own. In part, yes, though not 100% correct. Potitical ties between the US & Allies were strained by the trade restriction on military equipment during the 1960's-70's. While they were 'happy' to get craft like the proposed F-5G/F-20, although they really wanted the F-16 (cutting edge at the time). This was resolved in the 80's by a loosening of those restricions. This was most recently (early 2000's) revisited with the US Defense Department choice (originally) to not give the UK RAF access to the programming codes for the F-35 that they needed for maintance/fine-tuning of their units. On the costs of trying to produce a countries own craft, your point is vaild in more ways than one. Though that is another full topic by itself. What makes you assume that emigrant fleets have ever used (or felt entitled to) "the best gear"? Look to the early years of the emigration program and you see that they don't use the latest and greatest equipment. What they're used to is using equipment that lets them get the job done the most efficient and cost-effective way possible. That's the reason for the existence of the VF-5, VF-7, VF-9, VF-5000, and so on. Comparatively inexpensive to produce, easy to maintain using limited resources, and effective enough to do its job well. The story behind the VF-171 is practically identical... what it brought to the table wasn't the latest uber-high performance, but rather all the same bells and whistles that went into Shinsei and General Galaxy's unstable superstars at a fraction of the price, and with a level of performance that surpassed their previous fighters without becoming unmanageable. That made it the "Goldilocks" fighter that became the next main fighter alongside the AIF-7/QF-4000 Ghost. Fleets can build more potent aircraft if they really want to, but most of them don't seem to really see the need to have Earth's latest bleeding-edge toys. The 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (Macross-7) didn't bother with AVFs at all until five years or so after it was decided that the VF-19 would tentatively become the next main fighter... and even then they only built a handful on a trial that ended up assigned to the Special Forces. I was more focusing on the fronier planets on my original statment than fleets, though as the fleets were deployed the most advanced common craft were used. Once settled though, they would as for the plans to upgrade to 'the best' for defense. Though with Macross R, it seems most perfer the more cost effective garisson option of D&D (Destriods & Drones). After I wrote the prior, I see your point, Seto Kaiba. I got wrapped-up in my tanget & lost focus. Still, any intellectual would question the double standard of the Unity Goverment limiting the technologies to others while allowing themselves unfrittered access in the name of being the peace-keepers/-makers. To many times in history, the sole protectors of a regime eventually become the subjectators there of. ___________________ On JBO's script, yeah I 'heard' it to in my head on the second read-through. On the VF-9E; I think it was a great idea, although the flight control of (it seems) any swept forward wing design is extreme (or more would be flying). Add the fact that it seems the FF-2450 series turbines have an overheating issue, that seems to be agravated to the point of exploding (uncontrolled & rapid critical mass seeming to be achieved) In theory, would switching out to another turbine that does not have an overheating issue, like the FF-3600J (630 kn) &/or detune it to tolerance levels of the frame solve the issue of explosions? On the flight control; the VF-9E is to the VF-19 series like a Gee Bee is to that of a Red Bull. just as powerful though more of a b!+(# to handle.

I prefer true honestly over Internet bravado; with your comment you would act no different, VaIkyrie Driver, I feel respected at least. Seto Kaiba, the simple act of thinking outside the normal paradigm of a setting/situation & expressing that as an opinion can be consider political. I was making the 'gun control' of the comment based on what I heard hear of the politically going on in the Macross-universe and comparing it to the UN Arms Trade Treaty. A simple comparison of theologies & actions taken, no more or less, There are also a number of other (potentially more political) parallels in reality that can be looked to, if one does not have all the cannon information to immerse themselves in. On the monkey models that is permitted by the arms/trade restrictions compared to the full versions that the Unity Government allows their military to have access to, that subject by itself can cause strife and paranoia. For a group (frontier planet/emigration fleet) that has shown no strife or discontent and is use to the entitlement (to their view) of having access to the best gear, getting second best (the monkey model) with the knowledge the core military gets the full version may rub the wrong way. The facts of why the restrictions are in place may not placate the group in question, if anything it might enrage & make them paranoid. This is because it may seem to them that they are consider 'potential threat' to the main collective of the Unity Government, which can lead to one of three primary outcomes; They seem to placate themselves and put their collective faith/trust in the Unity Government's decision on this and potential future maters. They do their best to distance themselves form the core government, attempting to do so without strife or severing ties with. They attempt to breakaway & be Independent from the Unity Government, which may or not be classed as a dispute in need of military intervention. This is not based on a political views, but that of human nature & cultural conditioning. "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt Two saying that come to mind; "See through the glass darkly." "The brighter the picture, the darker the negative." On the "See through the glass darkly," is to refer to you man think you know/see everything on a situation, though there maybe something at play you do not have knowledge of at that time (or ever). "The brighter the picture, the darker the negative," actually dates back to the old glass-plate days of photography, though the pop-culture reference from the Batman; The Animated Series holds the similar philosophical view of "If it is too good to be true, it probably is." I was thinking about this afterwords, and you are right that their seems to be "some pretty dark commentary" in Macross, Valkyrie Driver, if one looks & thinks on that which is not clearly spoken of. So. let us look over some, shall we? This is not meant to distract from the AVF Upgrade Candidates topic, but a free thinking exercise on Macross & what you perceive from the franchise. No response to the following is required, If you feel you wish to flame/rant to me about it, you may contact me by the Forum's personal messenger. Macross Zero (OAV) The OTEC may have helped develop the VF-X-1 before the SV-51 took flight, though why in reality would the Anti-UN forces feel they would need such a complex machine? To stave off what they felt is a possible UN offensive with dissimilar (VF-0/1) or Destriods? An equal proliferation of Arms, for what end? I am under the assumption that the Anti-UN Alliance was on the loosing side of the Unification Wars at this point. Was the ASS-1 & South Ataria Island a closed site that originally only the OTEC & UN forces had access to? Was there not access for an independent/secondary agency/group allowed on site to investigate? Nora Polyansky's blame/hatred placed against the UN & its allies/forces seem to be rooted in her loss & scarring, which could very well been an 'accident' that happens in war. Or could it be more a personal issue, even more horrific than the flashback Shin has of what he seen while hiding under the bed? Operation Iconoclast clearly shows that if the (early Macross-universe) UN could not have access to, or control of, an area/object; it would not be adverse to destroyed it order for the potential threat it might pose to the organization is neutralized (at any cost, it seems) Was this the only time the UN Forces took such actions? With deployment of the "Daisy Cutter" (and said horrific air-fuel weapons are in stockpiles), it seems the Anti-UN has no qualms about. Is this due to similar deployments have been done by both side? Macross (TV Series) Why was there a need for the Unification Wars? Was it because the UN in no-spoken terms seem to declare that because they had the ASS-1, that if those did not follow their dictates would not get the technology to protect themselves? Due to the hardships of the population during both the Unification Wars & after Space War I, many felt that the UN brought on the problems everyone had to deal with. People would most likely be labeled as trouble-makers that willingly let their views be honestly known. Why did the UN insist that reclamation zones (that they outlined) were the only safe places that the survivors could resettle? If one wished to go salvage the destroyed landscape and try to live independently form, would they have been forbidden to do so? Macross (Movie) Why was the origin of the ASS-1 changed? Was it to be some form of disinformation to the masses? Where did the idea for the Altira come from? Was it suppose to be an acknowledgment of the Mayan Islands? Was this a 'plant' of information to have people accept the New Macross colony ships (that would have been in concept planning at that point)? Macross M3 (Game) (2022AD-MC) The Dancing Skull special forces team destroy an abandoned UN Forces biological weapons research base at the site of Protoculture ruins on the planet New Asia, after the base is deemed a biohazard. Like those of in Mayan, are there any other known Protoculture ruins site? Are they being investigated/preserved? What is the UN Forces doing with Biological Weapons research in the past & at this time? (April 2030AD-MC) The YF-11-2 with equipped fold booster rescued Chairperson Lawrence Yun Kemal. This shows that an AVF-grade is not needed for said missions, though it would make it easier. Would the VF-11MAXL or VF-17 do better if needed to do so in the future (since both can get back into orbit)? Macross Plus (OAV/Movie/Game) Mostly covered in last posted comment I had forgotten about the Neo Glaug of the Game. Thank you, Seto Kaiba, for pointing out that it was a drone. I would have classed it as an EVA & not a VF, do not think it was given the same AI bio-chip set as the X-9. There is also a Neo Glaug (VBP-1/VA-110) in the Macross R series that is a manned AVF-grade version of the Variable Glaug. Macross 7, Frontier & other materials I have not seen/read (fully or in part) so I can not comment.

It was mostly retorical, though I was also thinjing the LCF (Look Cool Factor) of an "Alpha strike," "Hail Marry" or "Death Blossom" attack (firing ALL weapons at once, not just the Itanto Circus with missles). Although there is a 'flaw' with the NP-FAD-23 Srike booster, that being that it cannot indepent pivot. in Battroid mode the pods will be pointed vertically because of the wing mounting. Unlees they have 'Beam Bending' technology applied, they would be next to usless unless they were in Fighter/GERWALK mode. _____________________ This "arms restricitions" within "trade policies" sounds too much like "gun control" agenda/practices that are affecting the world today. First is the limitation to everyone access to 'equipment' because of a few 'hostiles' can/have taken action (some may have happened as a 'false flag' to push an agenda). The logic is that if one limits the avalability of the 'equipment,' the less likely the 'hostile actors' can get ahold of. Reality is that those that wish to do harm still will get ahold of what they need, and those locally may not be able to defend themeslves from (without the NUNS or an approved PMC contractor) because they are disarmed due to the restrictions/policies. The next is that logical with the 'hostile actors' limited access to 'equipment,' that the powers that be (UN, NUNS or permited PMC) will have the technological/tactical advatage. Nice in theory, though cases in reality show that this is horridly inacurate. The 'hostile actors' either have gotten ahold of simular equipment (SV-51 vs. VF-0) or use lower tech to take out higher (the downing of the F/B-117 before they were retired). Then, the reasoning on the (limiteted) equipment given to local garrisons is more than enough to either deal with the threat themselves, or hold out until assistance can be rendered. Probability more often than the "terrorist activities," the outer-most frontier worlds &/or emigration fleets come under attack by some force that the local garrison can not handle the initale wave & have to calll (if they can) for assistance (which is still a time/distance away). With said, lives most likely have been lost because they were not allowed access to 'the best.' _____________________ ReVisiting Macross Information - Debate Version Continuing Zentradi Theat In the Macross continuum, many seem to believe that rogue/transient Zentradi fleets are only equiped with the same weapons and tatics that were involved in Space War I. This seems to hold true for the appearence in Macros 7: Encore, Episode 1 of the so-called "Fleet Of The Strongest Women." The sheer numbers would have many doubt that survival, let alone victory over, would not happen. If not for the events within the episode, it most likely would not have been favorable & the UN responce would be too late/little to make a difference for those undre fire & lost thier lives. Within the sphere of UN-controlled space; Zentradi seem to be able to improve, innovate and invent equipment for use. This is not to say that they can those outside 'human' infulance can not, nor that the equipment can not be altered by others. With the lack of intelligence on these possible units, to plan & deploy a effective defence stratigy is not likely. AVF Development Thte briefing of First Lieutenant Isamu Dyson at New Edwards Test Flight Center is rater telling; "This project, called 'Supernova.' is to test and develope candidates for the next main transforming fighter to replace the VF Thunderbolt currently being used. "In order to solve colonial planet disputes and in case of an emergancy dur to an alien attack, this new transforming fighter will make it possible to preform the hyperspace fold on its own. "Not using a reactive weapon, which might cause a political problem, the new fighter will break through the enemy line and destroy only thier military headquarters or rescue hostages." - Colonel Millard Johnson, Chief Planner for Project Supernova Macross Plus OAV (English Dubbed version) This statement, with how things later developed with policies/polotics, is disturbing. The next mainline fighter in the Media (GNN) would be the new vanguard for humanity's protection able to get to the frontlines faster than any prior unit, Reality is that it was being develpped to keep breakaway factions (self-soverent groups) in-line while allowing the military industrial complex more use/control of its actions within the goverment to be used as a first responce to. For whom would colonial planets most likely have a dispute with? The Unity Goverment & the policies there of. How best to dampen a govermental movement than to eliminate the miliatry forces that may oppose keeping the status quo &/or the local goverment that allows/supports said change? The performance of the two final candidates to insert themselves into 'hostile territory' behid the defencive kines and take out a military objective & rescue hostages was deemed possible. Though, the UN Military did not like that the Earth's defence grid was used as an impromt trial for, siting that if they wished for those units to do so to others that it could be done back to them. The old saying of those that live by the blade, and the potental of this double edged sword actions were akready partially unsheathed (with VF-17 craft already delived/deployed). So to try to curb the potential 'harm.' the trade restrictions (like many gun control policies) ban aspects of the whole to try to dissuade desire for and limit the capabilities there of. AIs & Ghost Fighters No matter how much one may dislike the dehumanization of combat. drones are a part of the modern (& future) battlefield & tactics. Now in the case of the X-9 project, I feel that ite was an overreaction to remove the AI from, as I commented in the Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircrafts thread. In theory to hack a drone's controls (since no one known has been able), one needs to intercept/overpower the command signal to. Even with the X-9, there would have been an encoded frequency to give it orders through, and Yang Neumann from his impromt workstation in the YF-19 did find the signal. Noticing that it's code was Sharon Apple's 'emotional code-line', he figured that he could not wrestle the control from the Virtual-Idol (though it seems he left the connection open, which allowed the AI to attempt to infulance all in the YF-19). With the fact that Sharon Apple reversed hacked into the YF-19's virual displays & audio, but did not go after the flight control systems shows a limitation. That either the systems were totally insular of each other (for displays showing the readouts, this is unlikely), or the AI did not understand the coding to alter it (without the risk of cause 'harm' to its 'plan' for Isamu). This 'lack of knowlegde' of flight controls, though vast information of securing wireless communications (to control all the systems needed for the concerts) would have the hack of the X-9's systems improbable, though the corruption & securing of the command frequency for said would be within the higher possiblilities, especially with the high likelihood that the codes for were in the UN headquarter's mainframe. For the control of the SDF-1; the DECU6000 unit was wired directly into it, so pulling up the command prompts from within the system would be an easy feat. On the X-9's end, if the frequency was the secured bandwith & last encoding, the AI within would have no issue with following the commands given. Also, assuming for security reasons, that the encoding could be changed to prevent prior known codes to hack-controls & Sharon did so with her 'emotional code-line'. Otherwise, the combat & flight control performance was well within the parameters of the unit, which seemed to scare the heck out of the UN Military high-brass that it could take on the best fighters they have and have a chance of winning. The SMS version of the AIV-7S (QF-4000) in the Macross Frontier fleet (& assuming the AIV-9V of the Macross Galaxy fleet) seem to have fullt fuctioning AIs within them without the issues. This could be used to argue that the X-9's AI systems were more stable that thought, though can not fully be disclosed due to the extrme legal limitations on the technologies. It also has me wonder why someone may not have attempted to place an AI into a VF frame (unless they are afraid the would create a Starscream) IVCS & ISC The only real counter to the inhuman performance curves that a Ghost firghter can produce is through the physics warping technologies. though still 'primitive' in development stages (zero generation in the YF-24). With later generations, the potenial of either handling larger g-loads or able to compensate for a longer period of time show promise in. though there is also risks with (as already deminstrated).

My opinion, the HESA unit witn the same name, a unit produced inspite of trade restrictions. The real unit is believed to be engineered off the Northop F-5, look & perform like a varient of the YF-17, and have the weapon capabilities comparable to the F/A-18F Super Hornet. The frontier wolrds & emmigartion fleets that wanted a relaxation of Unity Goverment involvement may very well be the ones that the trade restrictions on arms are enforced fully on. With so many Shensei Industry engineered options/varients for the 11-series, it is improbable to immagine that some group NOT trying to reverse-engineer & produce their own AVF-grade varient(s). ---------------------------------- Project Nocturnum (ca 2045+MC, citing Seto Kaiba) Originally, I pasted on the idea of the Vampire-series getting an AVF upgrade, mostly due to me not knowing much about them and assuming that there were technical limitiaons. Then after reading the entry for the Fz-109A Elgerzorene, I realize even though it is an EVA (Enemy Variable Aircraft) unit, it had the same basic pseudo-AVF qualities the VF-17 Nightmare-series has, and the original craft (VF-14) did not. Other than the lacking of a PPB &/or an Advanced Active Stealth systems (which may require a different turbine set for sufficient output for). Although, on the current bent of addidtional systems (Super/FAST pack & parts), I can not say I see were one could bolt on anything without interfering with transformation somewhere with this design. ---------------------------------- Project Epiales (ca 2055+MC, citing number of comments) The Nightmare-series is good, though I feel the original VF-171 (Block II) series got "Nerf:ed. The airframe of the two are simular; though the comaposion of the two is on par with the compariong of the Have Blue & F/B-117 or the Northtop YF-17 to the Boeing F/A-18E. To the point, they are not the same aircraft other than mecanical operations and passing simularities. The elongated canapy, wideer wings, addition of the PPBS & third-gen active stealth were improvements for the better. Even with the argument for the reduced thrust output for more electrical power, there were other turbines that could have done so without sacraficing the speed perfomance (citing the later use of the detuned FF-2550F engines in the VF-117 Block III/IIIF & VF-117EX). The removal of the fixed medium-bore laser beam guns I feel was also a weaking of the crafts standard confiugation combat performance though can see with the AAS-171 EX Armored pack in fighter mode the port area for forward firing would be blocked. With watching the YouTube TransGuide for the VF-17 & VF-171, and can not see were the arm beam cannons would have interfered with the transformation mechanics (in fact the poster placed the VF-17 into GERWALK mode with hands out like the VF-171).. On the point of Armored/FAST/Super parts; though giving additional armored protection & thrusters, the AAS-171 EX is useless. The Super parts for the VF-17 do that and bring more ordance. ____________________ Project Sword (ca 2050+MC) Going from unnecessary "Nerf"ing to somthing that needed some refinement, the VF-19 seems to run the gambit of modifications for that. The first was the Engines that did not overheat, and swapping out the FF-2500E for any other engine used in the series seems to have solved that issue. Then there were frame and flight control modifications. Some of these mokey models were ment to address the issues of control, others with changes to the FCS were ment to be within the trade limited that were imposed. Even my own write-up for the VF-19FX series had tried to adress this issue, including the EX-Gear addition used in the EF model & its varients. I will have to agree, that other than conformal parts anything else looks dorky on the 19-series. ---------------------------------- Project Karyu (ca 2036+MC) Now, onto the unit that has the first major thermonuclear turbine cooling issue. I honestly do not believe that either the YF-21/VF-22 series, or the E varient of the 9 series, coolent issues lay with the design of the VF crafts themselves. Much like the Schwalbe/Sturmvogel that the 22 series is named after, it is in the engines design/consturction that the fault most likely can be laid at. If it was not, why would the B & C models of the FF-2450 series have the same basic issue in two different airframe designs? The Junkers Jumo 004 produced durring WW2 had a heat disapation issue (due to inferior alloys used in construction) that hammered the ME 262's performance and did not aid in the development of the Horten H.IX. Simular overheat/straining of the turbines were reported with the Tumansky R-15B-300 that was used in the MiG-25 (two of the crafts speed records resulted in slagging the engine). Other than the Speaker booster pods I seen somwere, there is not really that much posted on the VF-22 Super parts. Other than the fact that I believe the Schwalbe Zwei/Sturmvogel II that aer the only VF design that can fully transform and keep their fold booster attached. ---------------------------------- Project Hagewashi (ca 2010+MC) Yes, the SV-52y Oryol is only in the Unlimited-class of the Vanquish races, though serval things could be improved on if it was going to be made a proudtion model. And these would have to deal with the errors in the description. On the FF-2010 originally used for the VF-17D, that is plausable. They trailed both the FF-2010 & FF-2100X to be an upgrade from the FF-2009E used in the 17A, then decided to used the 2100X turbine. Which is a puzzle; for the FF-2009E & FF-2100X have almost the same performance. while the FF-2010 has slightly more power. Another uknown is the mass of the SV-52y. If we use the mass of the SV-51 (17.8 metric tons) & the reported maximum thrust output of the FF-2010 (588 KN x2), the thrust-to-weight ratio is only 6.7 (Mach 8+ at 30,000+). With the VF-14/Fz-109A, it seems that the magic t/w ratio in Macross seems to be 8.4 (Mach 12.6+) to be the minimuim to orbit, and for the reported Mach 21+ should require a rating of about 10.75. To acheve that, the frame & systems would have been modified & lost over 35% of its weight (no small feat). Was this weight saving achieved by the stripping out of the targeting radar, FCS, weapon systems & active stealth? Those systems would need to be reintroduced for a active-combat version. With only a dozen combat-rated SV-52 units (converted from the SV-51) to get data from, and the engineering to bring the stress tolerances up to AVF standards might be a pain, it might not be worth it. Although it would be a signature craft if it was produced that would be talked about, if known. On Addtional Equipment, the original boosters make me wonder if the boosters could be thermonuclear turbines to power additional systems? For a SV-52 with said boosters & a Howard/LAI HPB-01A Heavy Quantum Beam gun pod -OR- GU-XS-06 Long-Range High-Piercing-Round Gun Pod would be an intimidating sight. ---------------------------------- Project Nova Consilia There are alot of non-cannon fan art out there, both upgrades and new designs. On the latter, I found a site that had what the Artist would call the VF-32 & VF-36 (site does not like direct linking to images)

I agree with you, Valkyrie Driver, on the multi-role 'trap' of fighter design. Heck, I think the VA-3M is a great design (ugly as sin on looks, but that doesn't change operational performance). Only shortfall I see is that it can not get orbital under its own power, though the 4th & 5th generation variable crafts seems to be addressing that. No sense in doing an operation and not be able to extract with equipment from, and easier logistics if you can do it with less personnel. Some of those examples, through a different interpretation gives me a different conclusion, though I do also see your point. I agree that their was no official UN plan, though the ground work may have been laid by Shinsei Industry. That, along with my speculative belief in the relation of the VF-11MAXL to the VF-16 is on par with the F-5G to the F-20. Though if you would like to debate/discuss more on VF-11 series, we can continue in Private Message, considering it would be no longer an Upgrade topic. Agreed on trying to improve the avionics/stability of the VF-19 series. Heck, on my write-up on for the VF-19FX Fragarach flight control was a priority. That was why I based the fuselage off the M7 VF-19F model (most stable frame of the 19 series at the time) and then worked on having it be trans-atmospheric instead of space optimized. Although, that was for my MZ+/Macross RPG, and nothing (I could see) was out of line for it. I only attempted to dialed it to 9.5 (of the 11) that is found in extreme cannon craft. Also, not all fleets/planets may (or may ever) have encounter with the Vajra. So, the developments pioneered by the YF-24 still might be incorporated into their variation of the 19 series.

Since the conversation has moved on, I shall as well. On the idea of the VF-11 Thunderbolt-series getting an AVF upgrade; I see evidence in cannon that production of said has happened (possibility of at least a thousand), though dispersed throughout all the fleets that would be low numbers. The VF-19 may have had continued developments &/or customizations in separate fleets (like the VF-19EF/A for Isamu, or my earlier posting of VF-19FX). On the YF-30, in the same thread as the VF-11MAXL & VF-17, I feel it was designed as a a multi-use SOG (Special Operations Group) craft utilizing the best/latest technologies. Now reading Seto Kaiba's posting on mostly confirms that view in my opinion.

I have access to the newer Battletech books (not novels) due to Catalyst Game Labs being a customer of my employer (an independent book bindery). Above is the redesigned AirMech mode of the Phoenix Hawk LAM that appears in the Techbook 3085. I knew a many war-gamers that liked the Warhammer/Tomahawk design/layout. Always made me wonder why Destriods (which are supposedly cheaper) are not seen more often as sentries in the Macross continuum. Quite true, and agreed... <<<=========>>> True, though delayed/timed bleed-off of heat has its own issues, and potentials. Even with the lower temperatures of "cold fusion" (if applicable, or normal nuclear reactions) and the difference of that in orbital atmosphere (or higher) could (theoretically) allow some electricity to be generated via a thermocouple system. Though, to my understanding, this is not discussed as an auxiliary power source for any system utilization. I do not mean to cite a criticism; your referencing to the Macross Chronicle (though it is the main cannon of information) is aggravating when others (like myself) for whatever reason either do not have access to the publication &/or cannot read Japanese. Now, I shall move on. Yes, the VF-171 is an economically redesign (I prefer this terminology over 'detuned') version of the VF-17. The nose/cockpit (according to cannon & earlier posts) was altered/elongated to have better visibility for the pilot & sensors. This we can see in the art, although the statistical length in fighter-mode is less than an inch longer, and the EX series is shorter than the original Nightmares. So, with this said, there is conflicting/inconsistent data that can affect the ability to judge the size of AVF sensor arrays. The engine/leg units, arms & wings were also redesigned; which is cannon, although to me it's like saying the 1967 & 2007 Shelby Mustangs are the same (of course, they are not). With the wings and vernier motors alterations, I can see for increasing maneuvering, of which I have no conflict. The redesign of the arms I see as a necessity with the decision to remove the co-axial beam guns. While I would disagree with the removal, the subsequent elimination of the space for does make sense if the systems are not going to be there. On the modifications to the engine/leg units, this is were I did have conflict/issues with. The reactor of the FF-2110A thermonuclear turbine may have the same output as the FF-2100X, though less of that potential is dedicated to thrust. Though this is were the economical redesign can get "ugly" in order to save money with materials (since the area should be under less stress due to the engines producing lower physical thrust), a less stressed design may have been used redesign of. Though, due to the following & the fact I feel that the Plus-series was suppose to have the FF-2100X originally, I will disengage from this part of the debate. This then leads to the VF-171's mass gain over the original Nightmare-series. We don't know how much weight savings we have with the removal of the arm guns, or the addition with the active stealth, fighter-scale PPB, flight-control & AVF sensor systems. A few good debate points, Seto Kaiba, although their could have been as many issues with the economic redesign of the Nightmare-series as there would be to upgrade the Thunderbolt-lseries, after the MAXL-unit development. Though on the "bigger, thirstier engines," comments, I am conflicted. Yes, the Burst/Stage II thermonuclear turbines may have nearly double the reactor potential, while being more efficient (in mass/space & economy). They were used in the VF-16, VF-17, AVF, 5th generation & newer VF designs. Which leads the FF-2099A (originally trailed in the VF-16) having about 45% additional thrust output over the FF-2025G (needing structural redesign/reinforcements for the VF-11MAXL), though it is unclear/unknown how efficient with fuel consumption the Burst/Stage II turbines are. With the mass of a VF-25 being comparable to a VF-11, and the FF-3001 engines producing over twice the physical thrust of the 2099A series, with there seeming to be no concerns over fuel usage. I understand that I am comparing (in Macross) roughly two to three decades of technical advancements; though the point is that if the Burst/Stage II turbines are so great, then why couldn't a VF-11C/D with the MAXL refinements be able to operate with normal fuel capacity? Though, in the cannon of Macross, these engineering complications are not usually noted. The exceptions to this is with newer technologies; the YF/VF-19 being difficult to operate, the BDI feedback due to emotional spikes & the near fatal failure of the ISC system. While the modified FF-2550F used in the VF-171 EX has a moderate (>20%) improvement of thrust than the FF-2100A, which if the Plus-units may have been designed to facilitate (though budget did not allow them to) would be compatible to the difference between the FF-2025G/S turbines for the Thunderbolt-series. That is true; with the production of MAXL for reserve units, it shows that they have identified the weakness and addressed it from the original design for manufacturing, even if it is in limited fashion. The question though is something that has (to the best of my knowledge) no answer in cannon. If they did all the research to produce the VF-11MAXL with the better performance, why was it not adopted for wider production & deployment? On the FF-2550F turbines, I will agree is "detuned," for the thrust limiters on the Nightmare Plus EX for this reason, with it only produce roughly 75% of the numbers for the thrust used in the VF-19(F)-Kai. Which I strongly believe... On this, I have my doubts. Even with two Burst/Stage II reactors higher output potential, in reality they would not make much of a difference unless the VF is not highly active. In fighter-mode, without the pack-systems, they can't by themselves have full ECA or any PPBS protection. Even with additional equipment (topping off the capacitors would mean drawing from the main unit), the output of the main engines do not change, which could/would tax the already very limited surplus of. Ever if one considers the capacitor system as surplus energy for the VF-25; once the fur-ball starts, you're on borrowed time. The pilot will/would be pushing the craft to the limits, and even if the PPBS is not active, the energy draining ECA would most likely be. Most of the combat is in fighter-mode, so the surplus possible from the unit in battriod is mostly negated. In battriod-mode without the additional equipment, the PPBS is limited in its applicational areas (hands/knife/shield) when active, so it is logical that a secondary system of is used with the Armored system for the whole unit coverage (if the main system is powered down during said time is not clear) though seems to use more power than the main. For the Armored system we also have the power drain/draw due to the use of the beam weapons. In short (though thankfully not in the series) in theory as it seems, it should be plausible to deplete the capacitor system fully while in combat (reference the Gundam Destiny). Which could be classified as a fatal error. Though, it brings up a conflict of information. The VF-16 supposedly used Burst thermonuclear turbines, which are believed to have have higher reactor potential over other engines. Both the FF-2099A & FF-3600J were supposedly used in the VF-16 (& later in the VF-11MAXL), and therefore are Burst/Stage II turbines. The 2099A reportedly produced roughly 40% more physical thrust than the 3600J, yet it seems the latter has also less electrical potential with the battery needed for the PPBS in the VF-11C-Kai Thunderbolt Interceptor.

Somehow double posted

It is the S-PW-1LAM Pwwkt, a Word of Blake LAM based off their Spectre-series of aerospace-fighters. In the Jihad era (3065-81), this was the new light (30 ton) LAM. The battlemech mode reminds me of the classic VF layout. This is the Waneta (S-WN-2LAM), a 55 ton unit with twin LRM-15 launchers.Other than the possible use of VDNI (Vehicular Direct Neural Interface) system & Clan-tech weapons, the WoB LAMs are only marginal better than the Star-League versions. For comparison of realities, the Word of Blake was attempting to achieve 4th/5th gen Heavy Battriod VF performance while limited to second generation equipment/materials/technology.

It's one of the acknowledged advantages of the delta wing configuration used on the VF-0C/D, VF-11MAXL, etc... you have more internal capacity for fuel and, if what's said about cooling on other models holds true, room for a larger coolant loop to dissipate heat from engine components that isn't being used to produce power. The coolant loop, that sounds like Battletech's dissipation rules for LAMs heat sinks in the wings, which makes sense. Conformal tanks on their own would probably be cheaper, yes... though the simplest way to go about it would be just enlarge the airframe for better internal tank capacity (e.g. the VF-11MAXL). That seems true enough, though without a single set of specifications and regaled to reserve units did not aid in much. With the data from Project M Special Technologies Group, Project: Thunderbird's YF-11E/MAXL configuration seems to fit all the minimum requirements for an AVF craft. While using the turbines from the VF-16 & the P&W HMM-7Y verniers give it superior speed and maneuvering over the Thunderbolt, though not at a intensity that a good pilot cannot handle. That's because the improvements in armor strength are due to upgrades in the energy conversion armor system, not reinforcement of the airframe itself. Which the ANIME point I was trying to make is missed. The VF-11 needed frame reinforcements in the MAXL when equipping the FF-2099A, which had about 45% more thrust than the FF-2025G. The VF-171 EX's FF-2550F turbines (used in the VF-19F-Kai) produces roughly 50% more thrust than the FF-2110A engines.Even if the redesign for the Nightmare Plus didn't weaken the legs/engine area of the original frame design of the VF-17, the turbines still generate over 20% thrust more than the original FF-2100X, with no reference about structure reinforcements needed. As the dethroned "next main fighter", the VF-19 tends to be the go-to source for AVF upgrade parts... though we know little about what the configuration of the VF-17's radar system is. The AVF-tier radars and other composite sensor systems we know about in official or semi-official sources suggest they probably wouldn't fit inside a smaller airframe without compromises elsewhere (like an elongated nose, e.g. the VF-171, which adversely affected stealth). I can see the points of reference you have made with the VF-171 & VF-25, Seto Kaiba. With the other changes to the Nightmare Plus, it would affect the passive stealth resulting in the need for the active system. Although, the nose-cone is not the only place in which sensors can be installed. The wings have also been used, and we do see that in reality with the EA-18G Growler & in cannon with the VEFR-1(VF-1G).With the larger wings of the MAXL configuration, this should be easy to accomplish with space for fuel and active stealth emitter arrangements. Yes, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus uses a detuned version of the VF-17's burst turbine engines in its "stock" configuration for cost reduction, but as discussed earlier, that doesn't necessarily translate into reduced generator output. The engine may simply be design-limited to reserve more of its reactor output for onboard systems instead of thrust production. Either way, it's still using the more efficient thermonuclear reaction burst turbine technology... so it's at least in the same category, power-wise, as the VF-19 or VF-22's engines. (Also remember that, with its coolant limitations on thrust production, the FF-2450 used on the VF-22 had comparable output to a FF-2110 but more than enough power for active stealth and a pinpoint barrier as well.) I think I am starting to see your point... T + E = R T = Percentage of Thrust Output E = Quantity of Electrical Production R = Reactor Capacity Since JBO (and other sources) mentioned that the reactor's electrical production increases with the decrease in thrust output in battriod mode, hence the ability for capacitor charging to be used at a later time (PPBS or the "Mighty Wing mode"). The logic with this would be limit the maximum thrust potential from the reactor to allow greater electrical production. This makes sense, with the above equation, to make a turbine with more electrical output than thrust. ____________________ With the Project: Thunderbird (YF-11E & YF-11E/MAXL) craft upgrades, I was trying to outline how the 3rd generation VF-11 Thunderbolt-line could be improved with AVF-style technology, though not directly compete with the AVF (effectively a 3.5 generation like the VF-17). The evolution of the F-5E/F Tiger to the F-20 Tigershark is mirrored in cannon with the VF-17/VF-171 Nightmare-line (a 3.5 generation VF made easier to fly/maintain/manufacture). The F-15's evolution from the McDonnall-Douglas to the Boeing design is also mimicked, when the VF-171 Nightmare Plus series integrated systems from Shinsei Industry and higher output turbines than the original VF-17 (in effect, making it a 4th generation VF).

I think it's more the mentality of "it doesn't exist until it is part of the official setting (aka canon universe)" mentality. The Macross RPG playing community has used AVF technology upgraded VF-11's in their games since before 2000 (real world time). Most of those stats have disappeared, but you may have better luck than I did by searching for the VF-11E, VF-11F, and VF-11G variants. I know of the units you speak of sketchley, though most were seemingly wrote up for use of Fuzion system(1) The Macross 2050 Technical Book (pdf) I believe still has said units statistics for the Mekton Z+ RPG system(2). Though, some of those units were more "outrageous" in their upgrades than what I propose here. I can understand that sentiment, Seto Kaiba, and that makes you at times the best "Devil's Advocate" in these sort of discussions. I was also looking at it like Boeing did with the F-15 and F/A-18 designs, or General Galaxy Guld Works reaction to being given a copy of the VF-19 schematics. Either group wouldn't want to put a product out that was less than on par with the original (if anything, striving to make one better). If there was a cannon start point for an AVF upgrade of the VF-11, I feel it would be the D-Kai Jamming Bird unit. What I would call Project: Thunderbird (YF-11E), would start of with the Project M Special Technologies Group's VF-11D-Kai schematics, since this sub-variant had the longest consecutive run of any dissimilar modifications. Starting with the removal of all sound energy equipment, returning of the head style of the B/C series and the cockpit area to that of a single operator. With all other alterations remaining, including the FF-2025S turbines, the proposed craft could have a projected thrust/weight ratio of up to 7.04. With the addition of Aerospace Super parts, it should be able to easily obtain orbital status. <<<=========>>> It's not just a matter of raw thrust... but a matter of fuel efficiency. The thing that pushed the VF-17 Nightmare to the level of being able to launch into satellite orbit unassisted was the adoption of a new version of thermonuclear reaction engine technology. It got the FF-2100 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine, which had greatly improved output and, more importantly, fuel efficiency. One of the key design features of the VF-11MAXL was its delta wing, which offered more room for fuel storage... that probably was as much a factor in its orbital capabilities as the new engines. One also has to wonder if the stock VF-11 could meet the cooling requirements of a more potent engine... because even AVFs are struggling with that on their own. On fuel economy, I will admit I had not given though to that due to the usual range and capabilities associated with the VF craft in general. This is also the first time turbine temperatures has really been brought up in a discussion. I don't know if there is any hard data in the trivia about this matter, though I have noticed almost all thermonuclear engines are manufactured by Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice, and majority of vernier motors produced via P&W. I had assumed that unless there was a direct and specific mention of an issue dealing with said (like a reinforcement of the frame needed for the FF-2099A), the matter was of a moot/trivial concern level for that piece of equipment in other dissimilar craft. Also, other than any obvious fuselage changes for (apparent externally, or noted about the structure), all equipment listed in variants can somehow get "shoehorned" into (within a set level of logic/reason). In reality; yes, temperature of equipment and fuel economy play as much a part of a aircrafts performance as does raw thrust. While I don't know what the operating temperatures are of the General Electric J79-GE-17A (used in the USAF F-4E) and the Rolls-Royce Spey202/204 (RAF F-4M), the data has the Rolls-Royce engines having more thrust and better fuel efficiency than that of the General Electric turbines. I had not read anything of the VF-11MAXL's delta-wing assisting with fuel supply, though it is referenced in strengthening the fuselage. Also, delta-wing designs usually acquire a lifting-body effect on aerodynamics that usually assets in fuel efficiency of the craft. --------------- Now, if the Project: Thunderbird craft's structure was strong enough to handle the FF-2099A turbines, the potential thrust/weight ratio could climb to 9.22. This would also allow it to reach Mach 15+ at 30,000+ m. If fuel consumption is a issue, then the Super part's conformal propellant tanks could be used (in a similar fashion to those used by Roy Fokker on the VF-0S). It could also be argued (for operational costs) that using the FF-2099A with drop tanks would be cheaper than (the cost of fuel & manufacturing for) using boosters to achieve orbital status. <<<=========>>> They're vague on that subject in general... another instance of it being mentioned but not described in any detail would be on the VF-19EF Caliburn, which had to be reinforced to use the GU-17. Which is why I often reference the tale of Mr. Douglas & his company's product, the DC-3. The story goes that Mr. Douglas did not believe in the hype that the newest aluminum alloy was as strong as the technical sheets were saying without additional weight. So, he had his designers/engineers make the specifications/tolerances for the DC-3 with a grade lower aluminum. Though for the manufacturing, Mr. Douglas had the new alloy used in the construction of the DC-3. Performance of the structure was greater than anticipated, and not a single DC-3 has had an accident/crash associated with main fuselage fatigue/failure, even with stronger engines used in the nearly 80 years of service. Many designers/engineers have tried to facilitate this level of over-engineering, though management usually does not approve and has the items made with lesser materials (sometimes with fatal results). I have assumed that their are different/stronger space-metal alloys in Macross, and the easiest way I feel to reinforcement/strengthened a structure is to use a better grade of that suits the needs. We know that the VF-11MAXL needed reinforcements of the structure to facilitate for the FF-2099A turbines. We also know the VF-171 EX utilizes engines that produce nearly fifty percent more thrust, though only 20% improvement in armor strength is mentioned. <<<=========>>> Minor upgrades are... you don't usually drop a next-generation avionics package into the fighter and call it a block upgrade. That takes a lot of adaptation. Whether next-generation sensor systems would even fit is a whole other kettle of fish... the VF-19 radar, for instance, is QUITE large and the VF-25's is actually dependent on the shape and composition of the nosecone. That is true, Seto Kaiba, although you overshot the point. Though, the fan-based units sketchley referenced do just that. If I recall correctly; the VF-11G was to utilizes a FCS, PPBS & virtual-screen cockpit-style equipment of the VF-19, while also using the FF-2100 turbines of the VF-17. Even back then, I considered that "outrageous." Though back to subject, not all AVF-grade equipment comes from the VF-19 (though said craft set the bar high). In size comparison, it does seem that the arrangement of sensor equipment in the VF-19 is larger than the nose-cone of the VF-11. Although, who said that the exact same arrangement was going to be used? The VF-17 Nightmare equipments a dissimilar array in a smaller area, as an example. The avionics systems are more for the flight controls, which would need a newer processor/software upgrade due to the change in turbines &/or vernier motors anyways. On the FCS, other than needing the structure to handle the recoil from the gun-pod(3), it is needed to fire the latest missile ordnance, hence at least a software update. That is the conventional thinking, though not necessarily correct. Ionizing the atmospheric molecules around the airframe can cause interference of radar waves before & after reflection from the craft, effectively negating a returning signal (several DARPA projects & patents on this technology). Though this would not work well (at all) in thinner atmosphere or in space. Another developing active cancelation technology uses broadcast waves in an opposing oscillation to weaken/cancel the signal. This method does not need long-distance transmission capacity, or need to fully cancel the signal (overly weak radar waves are filtered out as 'noise' by the receiving a system). DARPA also is developing a system that coordinates several smaller systems for a wider range of ECM coverage for a unit. <<<=========>>> Electrical output... it's not at all clear what the exact relationship between a reaction engine's generator output and thrust output is. It's not helping that we only have generator outputs for two VF's... the VF-1 Valkyrie and VF-2SS Valkyrie II. For those, the output power to engine thrust relationship seems to be a linear progression, and if we knew the efficiency of the MHD systems in the engines it'd be possible to backtrack from maximum instantaneous output in space to a ballpark figure for generator output for the others if it's still linear for VF's in the main timeline. We're still talking enormous amounts of power here... gigawatts, easily. That's true, we don't know, so we are left with what we have. I had also noted the linear output ratio, though left it as thrust for lower numbers to crunch. Of the Nightmare-line; I noticed that the VF-171's FF-2110A turbines have roughly 20% less output than the VF-17's FF-2100X, though they added both Active Stealth & PPBS to the Plus series & didn't mention any need for an energy storage system. ____________________________1. http://unspacy.com/m2051_old/mecha/ 2. http://macrosshare.blogspot.com/2013/03/games-rpg-macross-2050.html?m=1 3. I don't know the recoil stress difference between a 56mm (GU-17) & a 55mm (GU-11). If they are close enough, would that mean a VF-1 or VF-3000 with a FCS upgrade could use the GU-17?

I do not understand what seems to be the aversion of a VF-11 being upgraded to/with AVF technology. As with Valkyrie Driver's original comparison of the Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle & F/A-18 Super Hornet (which was to ingratiate 5th generation ATF technologies into a 4th generation design) as a cost effective alternative to fill in the rank & file.F-22 Raptor => $150 million F-35A/B/C Lighting II => $102* million (*= average cost of the different models) F-15SE Silent Eagle => $100 million F-18E/F Super Hornet => $66.9 million <<<=====>>> So, I am looking at this as an armchair engineer, and crunchy the numbers as best I can... The first shortcoming of the VF-11 Thunderbolt series in the 2030-40's was that it could not reach orbital operation ceiling without a booster. The VF-17 Nightmare could do this, though it was regarded as a special operations craft & the AVF craft are years before there are enough to displace the VF-11 as the UN Spacy's mainline fighter. (this is before the surge of antigovernment sentiment) The easiest answer is to increase the turbine output; FF-2025G; 28,500 kg x2 (279.59 kN x2) FF-2025S; 31,700 kg x2 (310.98 kN x2) FF-2099A; 41,500 kg x2 (407.12 kN x2) FF-3600J; 32,100 kg x2 (315,00 kN x2) As we already know, the Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2025 series of turbines are not up to the task. The FF-3600J model does have 30% more output over the FF-2025S, though has less than a two percent increase in thrust/weight ratio, and that ratio would be only 13% greater over the 2025G. The clear winner would be the FF-2099A, with 45% more thrust and a thrust/weight ratio on par with the VF-17. <<<=====>>> Which leads to the airframe discussion. While reading up on what I could on the VF-11MAXL, I noticed something. It is vague on how the overall frame was strengthened to tolerate the FF-2099A thermonuclear turbines. My belief on the easiest way to strengthen an airframe is how Mr. Douglas ended up doing so with the DC-3, just use the next tensile strength better grade material to make it out of. Sure, it will not save weight (at best, deal-breaker would be additional), and would mean a minimum change to the machining of the parts (in theory, at least). <<<=====>>> On the VF-11's armor, other than an anti-laser coating that also increases its passive-stealth, I would not change it. <<<=====>>> With regards to the FCS, navigation & sensor equipment, those usually are apart of Block updates for any series. With a proposed sturdier airframe, the use of AVF weapon systems should also be easy to facilitate, if needed. On electrical based systems, the Advanced Activate Stealth (since electronic-countermeasures is the closest equivalent we have in reality for understanding) updating/upgrading should be as simple as the Block modifications of the arrays. <<<=====>>> On the fighter-scale PPBS, now that I have crunched the figures and think I understand. In an earlier post on this thread, I believe Seto Kaiba stated that the PPBS used in the YF-19 consumes 60% of the two FF-2200B thermonuclear turbines output; FF-2200B; 64,700 kg x2 (662.18 kN x2) Now, I don't know how to convert thrust into electrical energy, but the apparent output of the FF-2025S & FF-3600J engines of their respective units don't have the power for it by themselves. The FF-2099A turbines seem able to do so, although it seems that the usage would be over 90% of the twin reactors' capacity. So, I do agree that either not including a PPBS... Or the installation of a power reserve system for... Are the only options to for the system in a VF-11 airframe. With the only time the thermonuclear turbines able to recharge the "battery" is in battriod mode, the pilot's best option is to leave it off unless absolutely necessary.

A part of a debate about what the color of unfinished ECA looks like that was in the Do you prefer TV or DYRL paint scheme? I believe that it needed to also be posted here due to the ECA content. Based on Master File and the scenes of the YF-21's paint burning off in Plus, to be a sort of medium grey color... either a warm grey (6% yellow) or a cool grey (6% blue), that seems to vary scene-to-scene and image-to-image. It's highly probable that there is no one uniform color or shade in which energy conversion armor is found in its unpainted form, since that would vary based on the composite materials used in the armor's construction.

That is why I was trying to keep with Valkyrie Driver's examples of the Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle & F/A-18 Super Hornet when discussing the concept for the VF-11-X Thunderbolt Plus. The only major difference in structure between the VF-11B/C seems to be the leg/ventral with internal missile capability(1). This innovation in the VF-11C/D is also present in the Thunderbolt Interceptor (C-Kai) & Jamming Bird (D-Kai) without external variation in that portion of the aircraft, despite having a different set of turbines (assuming similar for the MAXL). Other than that the MAXL series (& assumed C-Kai/D-Kai) needing reinforcements to handle the higher output engines, there seems to be no more difficulty in maintaining those units compared with regular VF-11B/C/D variable craft(2). With this said, a proposed VF-11-X should be able to achieve orbit over an earth-class planet without additional boosters & meet the first AVF requirement. Another design aspect is the vernier motors and actuators. The VF-11D-Kai used the P&W HMM-7 verniers to aid in maneuvering (may have needed due to increased weight). The Nothung II (VF-11B-Kai) had improved/linear actuators replace the original parts for faster transformation times (on par with the VF-19). Either of these design features could be incorporated into a stopgap unit with a strengthened frame, though debatable whether they would increase performance notably. I'm not aware of what the difference is between the Fire Control &/or the Active Stealth Systems of the Thunderbolt & VF-19, other than performance. If the difference is in a few components that need to be swapped out for to facilitate, then that should be a simple (though potentially expensive) Block upgrade for any VF-11. The YF-11-2 test craft utilized a fold-booster, as did the VF-11MAXL-Kai. This then is another AVF requirement is met that the VF be able to use said system. On the fighter-scale Pin-Point Barrier System, that is harder to say. The C-Kai, D-Kai & MAXL-Kai are the only VF-11 units with. The M7 VF seemed to be able to use their PPBS without any noticeable issues, while the Thunderbolt Interceptor needed a separate energy storage system to power the PPBS it had for limited time & knocked the long range sensors off-line. This could mean that the PPBS is a difficult to maintain system, or that it would have been better if it was installed by mechanics at a factory. Even without a PPBS or Advanced Active Stealth System, a proposed VF-11-X (upgrade for either C/D series) could still be a viable AVF stopgap unit. My point is that there really isn't a way to achieve that result without effectively destroying the colony... which takes the "long term" portion out of the equation. This isn't a single-point-of-failure system. An emigrant fleet is one or more emigrant ships and a military escort detail with anywhere from dozens to hundreds of fold-capable warships. Each and every one of those fold-capable ships has at least one fold communications system. So your typical planet on the frontier could have anywhere from 70 to 500 ships chilling out in orbit... assuming they don't also have a factory satellite or two kicking around the Lagrange points the way several are known to. To lose contact with the greater galaxy, you'd need all of those fold communications systems to fail simultaneously... dozens, or hundreds, at once. Even if there's a fold fault or something that's interfering, you just send a ship back to drop relay satellites like we see in Frontier... or just send a ship or two out as messengers requesting assistance the way Macross Galaxy did. Okay, my misunderstanding due to reading too much BattleTech. In said, they have (similar) fold technologies, though not every ship/station/planet has fold-wave (hyperspace-pulse) communications system (took up to much power/space for practical transportation in that series). Though they did have a plot device that could, in weak theoretical logic, be applied into the Macross continuum. Since all fold-wave technology (& assuming OS as well) is based off of Protoculture Civilization development, some genius/wacko could figure out how to encode a virus that cripples (including the possibility of damaging) the system & attaches itself to any/all transmissions from said transmitter before activating via the ancient coding. This would be highly dangerous because there would be no defense against because it (because it has never been done), it would also mean the originator of the viral would also lack communications & how much damage it could/would cause (both in hardware & social ramifications). With using the oldest coding to do so, even Zentradi systems would be affected. Anti-government groups haven't exactly gone away in the aftermath of the government reorganizing (in which many of them got exactly what they were after), but in the 2050s they seem to be less of an issue... and as many of them seem to be content with using existing hardware. On this, you may have a point, Seto Kaiba, for its easier to use what is available. Although, why some antigovernment groups may have fought was for independence from the Unity Government, and were either fully (American Colonies becoming the U.S.A.) or partly (the split up of the Republic of Ireland & Northern Ireland) successful. After that, the idea of a modified/new VF for themselves may take root, but not be distributed to other fleets/worlds (have to take care of themselves first, for the NUNS are not going to be coming to be the heavenly saviors). Difficult to say, but my suspicion would be "probably not"... at least, not for more than a couple minutes. FAST packs aren't really meant for continuous burn... they've only got enough fuel to yield maximum thrust for a couple minutes. I believe the VF-11's are rated for 5 minutes at full power. The capacitors that drive the VF-25's Armored and Paladin pack equipment might work short-term. We don't know anything about their endurance, but if they're anything like the ones in the VF-11's Armored Pack, then their endurance without being recharged in flight by the fighter's engines would probably be pretty short. Starting with the VF-0 Angel package... ... from the early to the third generation VF units, and their FAST/Super parts... ... gave additional speed/thrust and firepower was added, though not any generated power for the systems used. This seems to change with the developments made by U.N. Spacy Project M Special Unit. Sound Force Units 1, 2 & 3 were independently powered craft, though only Unit 2 seems to have been usable in both fighter & battriod modes. Due to the power requirements of for broadcasting with the sound energy technology, I had perceived that the engines for the VF-11D-Kai's aerospace boosters were actually separate thermonuclear turbines in which to provide the necessary energy output for... ... but with the 5 minutes of maximum thrust seems to discredit that line of thought.Even with Overtechnology, the facts remain... Rocket boosters mostly produce thrust & speed, though almost nothing else... Thermonuclear turbines in the series provide power & thrust... Battery arrays allow power storage, though charging/depleting them too quickly can cause problems (ie; explosions)... Capacitors also allow energy storage & can be charged slow or fast, though releasing that power from usually is an all at once process (very hard/impossible to just bleed off energy), which makes them good for systems that have a momentary need of power... Now the VF-25 APS-25A/MF25 has supposedly only enough fuel for 2 minutes of maximum thrust use (approximately 15-20 minutes of combat maneuvers). It also has two Hachishuu Heavy Industries C-207 high-capacity capacitors to power beam guns, energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier. If they're just two single capacitor units (one per booster), with normal physics, that is not possible/practical to power the systems with a steady supply. So, I am assuming that the C-207 is a system of banked capacitors for a more controlled release. Which brings us to the question, how are they charged? We have knowledge that beam guns, ECA & PPBS have heavy energy consumption rates, to the point where the VF-27 & YF-29 need all four of their turbines to actively power them all. Even with capacitors fully charged, that rate of usage does not change, and said systems should be depleted quickly. Considering that the FF-3001A turbines of the VF-25 are already near maximum output without trying to recharge the capacitors of the APS-25A/MF25, the only easy logical way to recharge them is already in the boosters themselves. For while in fighter mode, the VF-25's FF-3001A turbines are usually diverting power for thrust. The YF-25's SPS-25P/MF25 Paladin Pack does have an energy capacitor built into chest armor allowing it to obtain the same defensive capability as a heavy Battroid. While using immense electrical power, the energy converting armor is laminated into the area where the energy condenser is built-in, making it possible to, literally, dogfight with a Vajra. Though, where is the capacitor getting the power from before energizing the ECA, since the FF-3001A turbines can't do the feat without the Super Parts? Only logical thing I can think of is power from the four Gobishi Heavy industries SLE-7A main booster engines. Though these engines (possible thermonuclear turbines?) are designed more for thruster, than energy, output. I don't know exactly how they are supposed to work, other than assumptions. In closing, why could FAST/Super parts not be designed/utilized like the VF-27/YF-29 additional engines, not just for additional speed but also for more power to internal systems (power PPBS & ECA in all modes)? Even if it is for a short while (most modern aerial combat lasts less than 3 minutes, and the APS-25A can last at least five times as long) it would still be an advantage. ____________________ 1. A feature difference between the McDonnall-Douglas and Boeing F-15 designs. 2. Dissimilar to the differences between the McD-D & Boeing made F-15 & F/A-18 craft, that have not affected maintenance of either version.

True, though a limited fashion makes sometimes a better stopgap unit than an entire new airframe design, and is more cost effective. Also, is not the only major difference between the C & D series VF-11 units the number of seats? Personally, I don't think that scenario is at all likely... even fold faults can't completely obstruct communications between fleets, and with the galaxy network playing a significant part in inter-fleet and inter-world commerce (cultural exports and so on), the complete loss of communication is likely to raise some eyebrows sooner rather than later and prompt an investigation. Every ship with a fold system has fold communications capability... so losing ALL long-range communication would generally mean you've misplaced the entire fleet (and therefore they're probably dead) or some malicious third party is interfering (which is likely to end with either losing the fleet or the enemy losing theirs, which likewise isn't likely to last all that long). Hence, why I worded that a fleet that has the loss of fold-wave transmission capacity.I know Fold-waves can be used as apart of a FTL telecommunications network. Though, (I believe) like modern-day radio/satellite systems, if one cannot produce a signal, all they can do is listen. If the Megaroad-01 had lost the ability to transmit a signal; they may still be operating normally though can't say what is going on with them. A frontier-world that had lost its fold-wave transmitter because it was destroyed due to a bandit raid might be able to receive the GNN programs still. With the UN Spacy broadcasting the specifications of the YF-24; either of the former scenarios could (theoretically) produce a 5th generation VF, though be unable to report any feedback. Developing a new fighter takes a significant input of capital and an awful lot of time... there are a few cases where anti-government groups or criminals have obtained AVF-level craft, but they don't seem to go in for modification. Obtaining the UN Forces' fighters through illegitimate channels seems to be easier by far (e.g. the poachers in Macross Dynamite 7, who were able to obtain VF-17 Nightmares and reaction weaponry through intermediaries). On the rare occasion where they've had original mecha, they've had help from crooked defense contractors... but developing all-new craft seems to be easier. Originally (pre 2050's), I would strongly agree with you, Seto Kaiba, though with antigovernment sentiments creeping up on frontier-worlds & fleets, the likelihood that said group(s) might be able to do as the original Anti-UN forces did increases (production of their own VF units). As for crooked contractors/politicians giving the "bad guys" the equipment they need, which usually serves the crooks' ends; we see that in reality. -------------- Something I remember from reading specs/synopsis of the VF-11D Thunder Focus, that while recording the Unlimited-class races, it utilizes a special booster system to keep up with. With the Super FAST packs provided for the VF-25 seeming to also be power-stations for the unit (the YF-25's Paladin pack allowed ECA/PPBS active in all modes), can that technology be used in reverse to upgrade the Super parts and bring 3rd generation VF fully to unassisted AVF (or possibly of the barest minimum of 5th gen) specifications?

Yeah, one lot of 20 craft... a special run for the Jamming Birds unit the Macross 7 fleet garrison established. That's because they didn't change a hell of a lot about them... most of the alterations, barring the engine change, had little or no effect on performance.So, in theory for the concept of a VF-11 with AVF technology that is factory installed does have some merit. That's... not really ambiguous. That's explicitly confirmed by the very first sentence of Macross Chronicle's description of the YF-29.I don't have access to the Macross Chronicle, so my comment was based on the opinions formed with limited resources I have. Possibly... though that only really seems to have become a factor in the 2050s and on, after the core (New) Unified Forces stopped sharing the latest toys in an unaltered form. It's probably more likely to occur in fleets or emigrant planets that are more distant from Earth... like Frontier and Galaxy, which were basically a galactic radius away from home.On timeline of Macross, I do see your point. Though, two situations would most likely promote independent/inspired development/evolution of VF design(s).The first would be long term communications issues. For if there was a loss of long-rang transmission capability, or complete loss of equipment for, new/replacement units would be needed at some point in time. I'm not sure how directed/secure UN Spacy transmissions are, though if they operate like standard radio waves, those that lost the ability to transmit would still be able to receive information/specifications for the newer units. This could continue until the limiting of data (that starts in the 2040's, sighting that the Macross 7 fleet had to get an experimental license to build the VF-22S) and equipment (noting in Macross R that LAI had permission to build/modify the VF-19E with the monkey model plans they were given, because Earth was highly reluctant to give fleets/frontier-worlds AVF units). Even though there was Project: Triangle (in which, we haven't yet seen what the Olympia's YF-26 looks like), the YF-24 Evolution's data was supposed sent feet wide (which means any receiving group could have gotten it). In the case of total communications loss, who knows what might be thought up over time.The second scenario is with well financed/organized antigovernment groups. For those organizations, a new/modified unit for their militant fighters isn't just a combat craft, but a symbol of their cause. So, if such thing is the case, an AVF redesign/version of the VF-3000 Crusader (like the design of the VF-2JA) would not only be a weapon, it would be their rallying cry.

Well, politics and military/police actions that may seem suppressive to some will cause blow-back. If a emigrate group felt that way and had access to AVF equipment... Well, enough said... As far as we know, yeah... though the modifications were almost entirely spiritia warfare-related. In other respects, the Jamming Birds were using mostly stock VF-11D's. Those, like the other Sound Force birds, were limited production aircraft too... practically one-offs built for special duty. Yes, the VF-11D-Kai was a limited production aircraft (I believe only 20 built). Other than the secondary pilot area set for a spiritia operator & the booster-pods for; the internal missile launchers, modified turbines & PPBS still have the units being well rounded craft. Some might argue that the VF-27 & YF-29 are also specialized designs for Varja combat. "... that were (almost) entirely developed in the emigrant fleets... " Now on that, theoretical (& for those that also role-play) emigration fleets could "evolve" into other VF designs (via Kawamori or not). Like a fleet that left with VF-3000... And then develop it into a new design like the VF-2JS with AVF specifications/technology... Or the flotilla/frontier-world would like a different frame from the YF-24, and decide that either the VF-4 or VF-5000 would be a better start... Which leads to a design dissimilar to the VF-2SS... Now, with the SAP system (with some modifications), that design could theoretically pull par for mission duties with the VF-25 Super & (possibly) Armored systems... Which reminds me when I watched Macross II, that the UN Spacy had also changed the emblem/kite from that of the TV/movie and also was using the NUNS abbreviation. What is quantifiable as a large/small fleet, I have no clue. Though, internalizing the factory facilities within the main vessel makes sense. I might be wrong, though the SDF-1 did not have a factory vessel with it, so I am assuming that the other engine compartment was said manufacturing area for. Also, assumed that all SDFN for research or short emigration fleets would be similar equipment, since they are based off the Macross.