Keith

Sure, it looks similar to the VF-1, but has awesome new Protoculture enhancements, and has comparable speeds with the SDF-6 (also shown)

The true new Shadow Fighter. The VF-6Y

I've just come across some top secret new animation pic's from Robotech Shadow Force. I snuck in the HG offices today claiming to be a fan, and walked away with these awesome new images. The new Shadow Force threat seems to have taken a cue from Babyon 5.

No, I'm saying that at the time of the war, the Zentradi had the top of the Protoculture technology. But as things went on, the Protoculture continued to develope their own technology further, while leaving the Zentradi static. If anything, the EVIL series were their attempt to implement AFOS level technology into the Zentradi. Not magic, but energy. Spiritia, Protodevelin, etc, are all forms of naturally occuring "energy" in Macross. The Protoculture in search of new forms of high energy production tapped into a sub-universe to draw a new high powered source, and channel it into the Super Dimension Organ. This energy turned out to be a sentient form of life, and due to its newly found lack of sustenance, went for the only thing it/they could, i.e. life energy (Macross again working off of the basis that all living things give off energy). These beings also had the ability to possess other living things as well, and went straight for the most powerful bodies they could, which was easy since those same bodies were the intended purpose of their energy, i.e. the EVIL seires, which became the Protodevelin. Reaction weapons. The Zentradi lost their last reaction weapon making facilities many years before, and here is a huge oddity triple threat to them. Miclones, a rebuilt ship, & reaction weapons. They had hoped to steal the ability to make reaction weapons from them, but Bodolza later decided they were too much of a threat to risk it. The Macross contained no AFOS level technology. The scientists in Zero were amazed though that the mechanical technology found in the ASS-1 was so similar to the bio-tech found in the AFOS (agian proving that the Protoculture were able to replicate their earlier technological efforts with newer more "natural" biological means). When it comes down to it, the only things that the Protodevelin brought to the EVIL were the ability to possess, & to steal spiritia. All the rest of their abilities (fold, space flight, barrier shields, energy weapons) were built in by the Protoculture.

You're assuming that all Protoculture technology was created equal. They obviously didn't equip the Zentradi with such fancy equipment to the level of the AFOS, and hell, they didn't need it. When you look at the timespan of the Protoculture's existence, you can also assume there was a certain rate of technological growth. When the Zentradi were created, the technology shown for them was their current high level. But just because they used them as their soldiers, does not mean that the Protoculture didn't continue to technologically grow. Hell, the EVIL series shows that everything they were able to achieve mechanically, they found a way to replicate bio-mechanically (fold, reaction weapons, barirer shields, etc). The AFOS is a representation of that more sophisticated bio-technology. As for the Macross itself, it was a Supervision Army ship. Which means that it was a refitted Zentradi (most likely female) ship, later refitted Earth ship. Being originally for Zentradi use, it used straight mechanical technology.

Damnit, that helmet thing has been bugging me for months, I just couldn't put it together! Love those references As for Macross Vs its contemporaries, I think it stood up above Gundam (0079 at least). Macross had a more personal story, as well as a much more focussed one. In regards to Noyhauser's views on Zero, I fully agree. BOMBA!

Honestly thats your interpretation of what Macross is, sorry to say you aren't Kawamori. I would say that the reason why macross plus is so different is that it wasn't ever intended to be a macross story at all, it was supposed to be of advanced air cavalry chronicles (or whatever he wanted to call it) to be made made after DYRL. The series would have nothing to do with macross. This is a direct quote of Kawamori found here: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm Thats exactly what SDF macross was, a synthesis of music characters ect, NOT just the valkyries. He later decided to use the Macross universe to tell the Advance Valkyrie story, however macross plus does not fit the pattern of the rest of the stories. Remove it, and you see a definate pattern between SDF, Macross 7, and Macross zero, going back to my original post months ago about japanese pacifism and the need for alternatives to war. I'm sorry that you don't get that, you might have a view on what Macross is about, but its wrong, and likely does not follow Kawamori's view. If you don't like it, tough, stop watching and groaning about it. This forum is littered with the detritus of countless Macross 7 threads that have explained it again and again. And still people persist in saying, Oh well its nothing like SDF macross. Hello, maybe thats because what you think SDF macross is, isnt what it was intended to be by Kawamori. I can think of countless famous pieces of literature that have been misintrepreted by scholars to mean one thing, when the author really meant something else, that get illuminated by later pieces of work. Macross Zero only cemented the themes that Kawamori wanted to present. I think it is quite clear what Kawamori is getting at now after these three series have been put out there. edited for clarity and typos Hey, that's not my username!

Emilia didn't come close to keeping up with Basara in anything except for piloting. And no, Max isn't descended from Mayans, he's descended from Newtypes I never claimed it to be anything more than speculated, it is however speculation that I find interesting. As for DYRL, since Kawamori has semi-officially delegated it to being a movie within the series, and has said that the TV series still stands as the official original set of events (and this overrides earlier statements that looking at the story one way appears to play one way, and another way plays a different way), there's no reason to not believe that Zero takes place before the TV version of events. Minmay in turn wasn't anything special (as someone already said), and herself didn't learn to fully put herself into her songs until after the series. What she did do however was put enough of herself into singing to wake interest in culture for the Zentradi. And that was what caused them to explore & accept human culture, making the large difference in the war. As for other singers, the Zentradi didn't come across them, and as far as has been shown, didn't bother checking out human broadcasts until they started investigating the Macross. I disagree. I see many links formed in Zero that connect to just about every Macross series, TV, Plus, 7, etc. Myth or not, does anyone disagree that the Protoculture had the technology to make it happen? Your own jaded opinions aside, many of us did like Macross 7, and Kawamori hasn't even remotely denounced it in any way shape or form. Basara didn't play guitar while piloting, the Guitar was used as an alternate control scheme that worked the same as any other control setup (just in the shape of a guitar). How can I compare Basara with Max? I don't have to. Though I will compare him directly with Milia. More directly, Milia's lullaby Ah, and before I forget, music did play a large role in Zero. Sara's song awakening her power to move objects, help plants grow, etc from episodes 2 onwards.

BTW, I do like your take on the AFOS's purpose as a mecha, and perhaps that the pilot did mate with the first official mayan "human." Considering mating patterns, all Mayan islanders would have to have some of that blood though. Though considering the Protoculture's knack for turning any life they choose into a human form, I have no reason to doubt the Mayan people are directly evolved from fish as opposed to simians. Considering that the Zentradi being derived from an entirely different form of life than humans were still "compatable, there's no reason to think that the same wouldn't be true for humans derived from fish & simians. The only Protoculture life so far that would have a compatability problem would seem to be the Zolans. I am surprised that no one has mentioned the similarity between Mayan & Zolan art though.

What you're forgetting is that the Protoculture "were" the only sentient life out there. That's the reason why they started colonizing planets in the first place. Whether there was or wan't officially a stellar republic is moot, as life across the universe was Protoculture or Protoculture influenced only. You're taking the very broad statement of "expanding their sphere of influene" to mean a very specific thing which isn't even implied. Never is it said that the Protoculture beat down other life forms, nor have any of their known actions implied that intent. And before you ask, in the same quoted episode I mentioned earlier (Mystery Of The Ruins?) the Protoculture explain their purpose of colonization being because they hadn't found any other sentient life forms in the universe. PC 2500s The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence. Note that it's not stated that any one side or faction of Protoculture only had access to the Zentradi, and they may have from the get go have been the decided upon method for "all" war period. Meaning whomever they fought against had to have had Zentradi to fight with too. Combine this with the knowledge that the Zentradi later revolved once the limitations against fighting Protoculture citizens had been removed, then it can safely be assumed that the directive had always been in place prior. PC 2700s Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation). Second space colonization, i.e. life had originally been spread out during the first. PC 2800s Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture. Just because it hadn't previously been unified doesn't mean that all colony worlds weren't comprised of life spread out by the Protoculture. PC 2860 Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two. Of course meaning that despite their attempts to unify themselves, the Protoculture couldn't resolve their conflicts, and the stellar republic fell apart. The Protoculture as described earlier, always had 2 distinct sides/nations seperating the whole. They came together for a while, but it just didn't work. There is no evidence that the Zentradi were ever used to fight anything but other Zentradi prior to the Protodevilin/Supervision Army wars.

Last time I try relivent political commentary..... Anyway, since the topic turned that way, yes the story of MGS 2 went on the freaky side, but especially with events as they've turned, I can see why he went to such bizzarre leaps & bounds. I suppose he could have gone with the more common free mason twist, but ghosts aren't that much more out there when you think about it. And hell, why not, I WANT A(nother) SNATCHER REMAKE!!!

Or are there indeed 200 year old patriot ghosts running the government.....

If they didn't want people to think it was a Macross sequel, then they wouldn't have included various scenes of stock footage (stock footage not being against terms of copyright, & directly falling under their distribution). They didn't include any original designs in the new animation because they weren't allowed to.

Uh, and how is Mylene able to do the song energy stuff then? Or is it supposed to be her Zentradi/Maltrandi blood? And her sister could do it too... I kind of got the impression that ANYONE could use singing that way if they had high spiritia or whatever. Mylene was never able to keep up with Basara in power. Besides, all life is able to create spiritia (including anima spiritia), it just so happened that Basara was considerably stronger than everyone else.\ Macross was never just about that. It was more directly about the emotions of one person being able to reach out & touch others to change the tide of war, which it remains to be today.

The quick & dirty. -Big West owns the designs, concepts, copyrights, etc of Macross & all its sequel properties. -Tatsunoko owns the distribution rights of the animation & merchandising for the original TV series (and possably DYRL as well, that ones a mystery). What this means is that HG can release the TV series as much as they want, but they can't make their own sequels including the character, mecha, or blatant story concepts of the Macross franchise (meaning they can do their watered down robotech version, but they can't come up with their own equivilent of say Macross Plus or 7 in relation to SDF Macross). My origianl piont being, "Hey look, they used the U.N. Spacy insignia when they weren't supposed to." The best example of HG acknowledging all of these rules would be in Robotech II, the Sentinels. Where none of the returning Macross characters looked even remotely the same.

Considering we know life on Zola is comprised of marsupials (prooven even further by the Zolio & Zoliette radio play), there's no reason to doubt that the Mayan's are descended from fish. I still say there's a good chance that Ray is descended from them. But all things considered, with over 90% of the Earth's populated whiped out, Kawamori could have included hobbits & ogers as well & been quite safe As for the power itself, we do see it resurface.

The Protoculture thought themselves civilized creating the Zentradi to fight their wars for them. Both sides would have to agree to the terms (i.e. the Zentradi wasn't created by one side to whipe out the other). And as such, instead of Protoculture killing Protoculture, it turned to Zentradi killing Zentradi. That was the nature of the vast intergalactic Protoculture civil war. We can also determine that the sides were likely seperated by sex (Zentradi, not Protoculture) but the war with the Protodevelin caused many fleet's to combine (such as Bodolza's) & integrate due to heavy losses.

Ah, you'll have to excuse me, only translation i've seen are the bad HK subs.

Looks that way, though I can't believe they're trying it. What else will they do???

The episode telling about the PC factions was 30 something of Macross 7, "Mystery of the ruins?" It's what Exedor read off of the Protoculture glyphs while entering the temple/trap. And are pearl divers able to breath air into others while deep underwater??? Perhaps so, but I know I'd freak out if I ever saw someone swim that well, and for so long, with no aid whatsoever. As for the Nome family, considering the size of the island, they would have had to have mated with others on the island & interbred over the thousands of years they were there, it's just nature. Perhaps Sara & Mao were the most "pure" or "direct," but I highly doubt there weren't other descendants on that island. Maybe due to the blood connection with the AFOS, only 1 or so can be "activated" at a time. As for Shin, while he may have thought Sara lost, there's no reason for him to believe she was dead. Especailly since for all intents, she came back for him & brought him with her. Maybe the remnants of the Protoculture have evolved since they dissapeared....

Hmm, this is pretty bold of HG. What a sly way to work in the U.N. Spacy logo that they aren't allowed to use in new animation. All they have to do is claim that it's part of a larger tri-logo. Interesting.

Wait, has it been determined officially if the AFOS was the tool initiated to manipulate life on Earth? I still haven't seen anything that points to it being more than a sentry. This isn't necessarily true at all. We know for a fact that by this time the Macross was near complete with its refit (and regardless of whether the fold engines were tested or not, Earth did still have the technology). In addition, there are the ARMD carriers, Mars base, & the various other cruisers that had been completed. It may have been enough for Sara to know that man walked on the moon in the 60's to warrent a "yes" answer. Again, the question isn't specificaly whether man has developed fold engines, nor is the scope of the question defined. Breaking out of Earth's orbit may well be enough to warrent a "yes." Oh i agree. Likely the AFOS is kicking back, waiting for a definative answer, perhaps a new test at the center of the galaxy. There's no reason to doubt the myth's that were presented. The Nome family (and likely all of the Mayan islanders) were descended from those fish people/bird people highbrids. A watchguard to keep an eye on the rest of humanity descended from simians. Sara was only doing what she was taught to do from childhood. If you're trained from the beginning of life to whipeout humanity if it faulters, then naturally that's what you're going to do Actually, it didn't seem to flinch when getting hit by those reaction weapons. More likely it just ignored them, and awaited its role as a future test. I still dissagree. Take a look at Mao's swimming abilities, even more specifically Sara & Mao's similar to human, but different, bloodtype (and again, likely with traits shared by all Mayan Islanders), and tell me you think the fish people story is pure myth. I think especially due to their isolatedness, that Mayan island was developed seperately from the rest of humanity. Perhaps Zola itself was another test for humanity, how they would be treated. Or perhaps the Ginga Kujira were their test (which humanity walked in & helped with). Actually, much of this is covered by Macross 7, as well as clues given by Exedor in episodes such as Satan's dolls. The war with the Protodevelin caused the Protoculture to lift the restraints against the Zentradi in not attacking Protoculture citizens (as the Supervision Army was comprised of them). After the war, when the Protodevelin were successfully sealed away, the Protoculture tried to reclaim the Zentradi into their society (i.e. "culture" them). The Zentradi saw this as a threat, and also turned their guns on surviving Protoculture worlds (colony & otherwise). This is also comfirmed by various dialogue from Bodolza during the TV series (as being the reason why he directly saw Earth as a threat, since the Zentradi had come across similar threats before). So in the end, it was the Zentradi which caused the near extinction of the Protoculture, as their enemy wasn't just the supervision army. As for the ship that was seen, I believe it was supposed to be the same modal SA ship that the ASS-1 was, no signs of life were detected, and it mysteriously dissapeared from the area it was found. While there may well be Protoculture left (since there can be one set of Protoclutre ruins, there can easily be more), they've never played any more active role than they did in 7, i.e. dispensing info & trying to capture Gabil. They may be at the center of the galaxy with the AFOS, they may not be. But it would make a great series/movie if they popped up to whipe out life they created because they believed them to be too "warlike" Even then, the fact remains that they had the technology & know-how to properly reverse engineer it. It's not like a band of cavemen hit a button & found themselves in space. The fact that they can understand & control the technology is all that matters. That's the question isn't it? That's likely why the AFOS retreated back to watch for a more definative answer. While humanity isn't spreading out through the galaxy to dominate it, and are indeed trying to maintain life by perpetuating it as far as they can, they are still using weapons & fighting among themselves. The fact that things aren't so cut & dry may be why any Protoculture out there are remaining so quiet. Though I'm sure helping the Protodevelin to evolve into a non-agressive state won some points, something the Protoculture weren't even able to do. Where did you hear that? PC 2500s The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s] PC 2700s Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation). PC 2800s Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture. PC 2860 Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two. Combine that with further info given in 7 that two distinct bodies alwasys existed within the Protoculture, and you can determine that the Zentradi were always used in some way or shape to fight between those two factions, it just blew up when they officially went to war. Never is it said the Zentradi were created to beat down some colonizing planet that wouldn't bend. Nor is it said that the Protoculture were ever that warlike. Not so much, as a a suprisingly large amount of it was covered in 7, as well as the latter half of the original series.

Factoring in the size of the speciman, that it was kept on the ship & never shown again, and the fact that the gunbuster was such a huge technological leap over earlier buster machines. Just a theory...

Actually, his concert outfit doubled as his flight suit. Watch for episodes where he zips it up & uses a helmet.

Speaking of the body of the dead alien. Was that supposed to be what they made the Gunbuster out of?