Seto Kaiba

No, I think that, despite everything, Donovan is well aware that it's a lot safer here than it will ever be on Robotech.com or RobotechX. Well, Doug Bendo opened the debate again because he finds something objectionable about using printed sources for the official stats. In HIS opinion, they should be based solely on observation of the footage, and what the fans think, not what the show's creators intended.

Glad I could help.

Really? I'd always assumed I was more of a villain than a "bad cop"... but whatever floats your boat. Y'know, the funny thing is that despite the three or four websites where various Robotech die-hards published my e-mail address and implored people to send me hate-mail, I don't think I've ever actually received any hate-mail as the direct result of their efforts. Bingo! Give the man a prize! You're absolutely correct! It's easy enough to shift aside the opinions of someone who isn't familiar with the subject as so much ignorant bleating (like, for example, Donovan). It's a hell of a lot harder to write off the criticisms of someone who has intimate knowledge of the subject matter... and that means that more often than not, they have no choice but to acknowledge and try to refute what I have to say. Of course, that's an uphill battle most of the time, because most of them don't have a goddamn clue. Just look at Pizza the Hutt. Originally, he was on my case for saying Macross had been a far more successful and prolific than Robotech because he didn't know about any Macross shows other than the original series, DYRL, and Flashback 2012. Eh, it wouldn't work very well these days... not with MEMO1DOMINION and Maverick_LSC banning anyone who dares to express an opinion different from their own. That reminds me... gotta work on raising my girlfriend's evil quotient. The last one was evil enough, but my current one is so innocent that it's kind of scary. It's not my fault, it followed me home! Which is what I've been saying since the beginning... he CLAIMS he came here to talk mecha, but so far all he's shown is that he's suffering from some bizarre compulsion to try to defend Robotech from perfectly legitimate criticism. Well, to be 100% accurate, MEMO and Maverick have the power to arbitrarily remove the posting permissions and chat access of anyone who looks at them funny, provided they refer those people to the admins. Of course, since Steve has mysteriously gone silent, that really means that Maverick and MEMO can ban whoever they please with no retribution. A permanent ban is usually the deletion of a user's account, which only the admins can do. Nah, Pizza the Hutt is your typical, modern Robotech die-hard... he's got his head lodged so far up his ass that he can see the back of his own teeth. He's got it into his head that if he kisses the asses of the moderators and persecutes enough Macross fans for Harmony Gold, they'll give him authority over his fellow fans by making him a moderator. He's the perfect little goose-stepping minion for MEMO1DOMINION and Kevin McKeever, on a mission to cleanse the web of Macross fans to make way for the glorious Robotech master race. You kidding? MEMO's probably the one who put him up to it. MEMO's another one of the goose-stepping Robotech fascists who can't stand to hear anyone say anything that isn't praise for Robotech. If you DARE to step into his domain and say you like Macross, you can bet he'll be looking for a way to get rid of you.

Ah, I see... if you'll excuse me, I'm off to go tie a young lady to the railroad tracks.

Kickass... gotta get me one of those. Eh... it ceased to be a horse (or mule) a good time ago... at this point it's more like beating the shattered, sun-bleached bones that were left after the horse cadaver was beaten into giblets and left out in the desert. The way some Robotech fans describe me, you'd think I was one of those over-the-top villains from the old black and white sci-fi serials. The sort of guy who talks in an overly dramatic manner, busts out in maniacal laughter over the least little thing, wears a big black cloak, and lives in a doom fortress with a legion of witless minions. As much as I'd like the doom fortress, I don't think I could afford the upkeep on the legion of witless minions with my salary. I'm pretty sure it couldn't have been anything I said over on Robotech.com... after all, it's been over a month since I was banned over there. Most folks don't really bother questioning the 1,200m length of the ship. Yeah, the habitat blocks would have to have a population density approaching or possibly even exceeding that of downtown Tokyo, but most of us just accept that as artistic license. Odds are they didn't salvage the ENTIRE island, just the buildings, some soil, and some other debris. It's also odds-on that the soldiers were living on the Daedalus, Prometheus, and in barracks elsewhere in the ship, which can let you fit rather a lot of people into not a lot of space. It's also likely that some of the citizenry were offered similar accommodations. The DYRL version definitely downplayed the "wasted space" aspect by having the city sections taking up a sizable amount of the ship's interior, including almost all of the interior space in both of the ship's engine blocks. According to Macross Chronicle, the first purpose-built colony ship (which was about 1.5x the size of the SDF-1 at 1,770m) was only carrying 25,000 people.

No, an "adaptation" is a composition that's been translated into a new form... like making a movie from a book, or a video game from a TV series. Robotech is not an adaptation in the strictest sense... all it is a fairly shoddy dub made for the express purpose of making Macross long enough to syndicate. It was never a "multi-generational epic", it was a fly-by-night attempt to make a good show longer by tacking two mediocre shows onto the end and pretending they were related. Again you betray your ignorance... it's one thing to build on the work of a previous title, it's quite another to baldfacedly take previously created material (in this case, from the Sentinels TV series, comics, and novels) and present it as though it were new, never-before-seen material. The vast majority of the material in the Prelude comic was nothing more than redrawn material from the old Sentinels comics... panel for panel, page for page... the same events, scenes, the same dialogue even... the only thing that changed was the artist. Shadow Chronicles was no different. The next time you think I'm saying something offensive... do two things before you get your panties in a bunch and start telling me I'm being a big meanie... 1.) Stop and think 2.) Do your research Wow, really? I had no idea I was so popular.

If you don't like that analogy, I'm sure I can work a holocaust joke in there somehow. You ran your heavily biased side of things by a friend on IM... and what he offered in return was a response that reflected only the biased information you offered him. Wait, so you can smoke it now too? Damn... it's a power source, chemical catalyst, explosive, medium for high-level genetic engineering, you can get high and mutate from eating it or inhaling its spores, and now you can smoke it too? Is there anything that stuff CAN'T do? I wonder if I can clean my oven with it.

You say one thing, then you reverse yourself by painting any opinion you don't like as "rude and condescending". How many times have you told us now that we should limit our criticisms only to Harmony Gold's business ethics, and not criticize their "creative" staff, Robotech itself, and the fans? It's gotta be at least half a dozen. You wouldn't have any factual grounds to do so... I, on the other hand, have a strong factual basis for saying that there is precious little originality in the "original 85", and can easily point out where and how elements of Sentinels were shamelessly pilfered for reuse in Shadow Chronicles. What you're interpreting as spite and bile is in fact my opinion based on a solid footing of hard evidence. Probably not the best fit coming here then, have you tried MechaTalk? That might be a little more your speed. What did you expect? This isn't a Robotech fansite. Why would you come to a site devoted to a show that has be seen in fansubs because Harmony Gold can't stand the thought of actual competition expecting to find Robotech being held in high regard? Are you familiar with an old robot saying... "Does not compute"? Thank you. Really, I don't think you're ever going to find takers... I've extended this same challenge to many fans over the last six years, and I've never once had someone produce an answer that didn't boil down to either nostalgia or ignorance of what else was out there in the anime industry. I can honestly say that I used to love Robotech. I have all three Robotech Art books, the Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles book, most of the old comics, all of the McKinney novels, and every animated feature except the Robotech 3000 trailer. It was great so long as I was ignorant of what else was out there in the industry. Once I took a long, hard look at what Robotech really was... all the magic went out of it. It was a case of the editor taking credit for the author's hard work... a hasty collection of rewrites and recycled ideas passed off as something new... the anime industry's equivalent of a blacksploitation film. Lately, the increasingly asinine behavior of the people I once called my fellow Robotech fans, and the determined censorship and lackluster offerings of Harmony Gold has gone a not-inconsiderable distance towards eroding what little affection I still have for Robotech. I respect the show for the role it played in introducing anime to the west, and for introducing me to Macross, but I have no love left for Robotech and its "creators".

On what grounds are you claiming that the criticism is undeserved? As I have said many times before, there's plenty of things objectionable about Harmony Gold's business practices and the way they treat the fans of their products. We really can't hold the fans blameless, because they're WILLINGLY supporting their abusers by continuing to buy their products. There's more than a few things to criticize about the products (including the animation), both from a quality standpoint and an artistic standpoint. Can we really hold up Robotech as being an artistically sound work when it's nothing more than a hastily-assembled, completely unoriginal product made by combining three unrelated shows using a highly unfaithful dub? Can we honestly say Shadow Chronicles is an original work when it's nothing more than a low-budget fan-wank made from set pieces pilfered from a previous, failed project? Should a woman who's in love with her boyfriend stay with him even if he hits her, lies to her, and makes promises he can't keep?

It's not JUST that we have a lot of talented people here... there's a lot more solidarity to be found here than I've ever encountered on a Robotech website. I don't say that lightly either... I was an extremely active contributor over on Robotech.com for six years before I got banned for daring to disagree with a moderator's crackpot theory, and I'm still somewhat active on RobotechX. On most Robotech sites, if you DARE to express the feeling that Robotech is anything less than the best show ever made, and Harmony Gold is staffed by wonderful people who set the gold standard for creativity, they'll run you out of town as a "Macross purist troll", even if you've never even SEEN Macross before. Heaven forbid you should actually MENTION that you like Macross or prefer it to Robotech... then they REALLY go to town on you. Look at the two biggest Robotech websites... Robotech.com and RobotechX. One is the official corporate site, where you can be banned for asking the wrong question or even saying you didn't like Shadow Chronicles, and the fans are constantly reporting each other over the tiniest infractions in hopes of currying favor with the powers that be in hopes of gaining moderator powers. The other is more of same, just run by one of the kiss-asses instead of the soulless corporate goons (who at least have an excuse for being jerks), where lies are news and the truth is obsolete. Anyone who's even halfway decent gets hounded off the site for not thinking Shadow Chronicles deserves an academy award, or not believing MEMO's provably-wrong crackpot theories about the Macross legal situation. You come over to a Macross site like this one, and the difference is like night and day. Over here, there's a lot more respect for people's opinions. We joke around a lot. Intellectual debate and criticism are not just welcomed, they're heartily encouraged. If you don't agree with what someone is saying, it's usually no big deal. But the most important thing of all is that Macross fans support each other. If you're looking for information, ask and it will almost certainly be provided. If you're trying to find something, you can bet that there'll be at least a few helpful souls who'll point you in the right direction or even help you look. If you want tips on translation or help with a model kit, there's always a helpful soul around. Even if you hate one or more of the Macross shows, odds are you'll have at least one show you like in common with anyone you're disagreeing with. Honestly, I think part of the reason there's a strong spirit of unity in the Macross fanbase is because so much of what we have is literally "by the fans, for the fans" as a matter of necessity. Our fanbase is sustained by the work of people who do what they do to share their love of Macross with other anime fans, and that's created a fan culture that puts a lot of importance on helping others. Look who the most respected members of the fan community are... it's not the people who've gained positions of authority by kissing ass like it is in the Robotech fanbase, it's the people who've done the most for their fellow fans. And you know what, that's the way it SHOULD be. EDIT: In hindsight, this is very likely the sappiest thing I've ever written... just pretend you never read it and we'll all go about our business.

Yeah, unfortunately there's nothing official like that out there... at least, as far as I know. The only thing I'm aware of that fits the bill is that RPG supplement by Palladium and Dream Pod 9, but that's not really official or even remotely accurate. (It was, after all, written by the people who insisted the Macross Cannons were only 488m long... actual size is 6km) Considering they've been out of print since the mid-90's, they're actually easy to find. Most any online bookseller or auction site will have at least one copy for sale. Amazon's got 2 new and 6 used starting from $15, which isn't bad. I got mine from Alibris. Hell, they're up on Macrosshare and probably the iMacross servers too if you want to go that route (filed under Misc.). I'm two books away from having every major Macross II resource ever printed... and those two books should be in reach very soon.

So, while you profess to respect the opinions of others, the truth here is that you only respect the opinions of people who agree with you. I'd be disappointed, but lately this is the sort of behavior I've come to expect from Robotech fans... and that's really disappointing on several levels. Is it really that hard to accept that the people criticizing Robotech MIGHT have valid opinions too? I don't know why you're arrogant enough to assert that Robotech is somehow above criticism. I assure you, it most definitely is not. If anything, it deserves criticism more than most shows, since there is precious little about it that can honestly be called original... it is, after all, a hastily assembled amalgam of three existing shows created for the sole purpose of making one show long enough to syndicate. I also find it frankly offensive that you're coming here knowing next to nothing of the legal situation or the history of the interaction between Harmony Gold and Macross's creators and trying to tell us what we can and cannot criticize. Yes, it's true that there's no shortage of reasons to criticize Harmony Gold... their extremely questionable business ethics, the underhanded tactics they use to keep Macross out of the hands of western audiences, the way their company representatives talk down to their fans like naughty children, and the fact that just asking a question about their ability to use Macross materials can get you banned to name only a few. Give me a good reason why we SHOULDN'T criticize the people who not only endure this abuse in silence, but THANK their abusers by continuing to support them financially, or, for that matter, attack those who dare to criticize or even object to this system of abuse? For that matter, why should the sub-par products being sold to prop up this abusive system be exempt from criticism? The heart of their franchise has less artistic merit than a Korean-made knockoff like Space Gandam V... it's little more than a bootleg. Hell, their newest offering was a fan-film composed almost entirely of material scavenged from the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series. Good idea, you go make that site and let us know how it turns out. Since it didn't seem to sink in the first few times, let me remind you again. This is not a Robotech fansite. If you want to talk about Robotech, go to a Robotech fansite. This is MacrossWorld, it is a Macross fansite, not a Robotech fansite. This site was created to be a place to talk about Macross, and the site's owners have expressed the sentiment that they would prefer Robotech remained as far removed from the proceedings as possible. If you cannot respect that, nobody's forcing you to come here.

Wait a tic... you've just completely invalidated one of your previous complaints. This one, to be specific: If they set out to make a movie "by the fans, for the fans", then yes, they DID hire Robotech fanboys to work on the movie. That's exactly what "by the fans" means... that fans were involved in its creation. Make up your mind please. I disagree. If the only reason he's come here is because someone told him this was a great place to find Robotech discussions, then he got some seriously bad advice from someone, and he's in the wrong place. This is MacrossWorld, not "RobotechWorld". Don't we get fairly regular complaints from Azrael and co. that the purpose for this site is not to be a hangout for Robotech fans who've been banned from/left Robotech.com? A problem that could easily have been remedied if we'd copied Bri's summary into the first post of this thread... I still don't understand why we didn't, and why it hasn't been updated with the additional sources we've found since then.

Clearly your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired... go back and read my post again. At no point did I claim or infer that this thread was not critical of Robotech and its "creators" at Harmony Gold. What I DID say was that this thread is, for the most part, not disrespectful to Robotech fans in general. There are some specific fans who, through their asinine behavior, forfeit the right to be treated with respect, but most of us do not bash the fanbase as a whole. Like Einherjar said, you shouldn't believe everything you hear from them... if you want to see the lies and manipulation, go to one of their panel discussions sometime. If they're going to publish a feature like that on the official DVD, of course they're going to make sure it makes them look good. They'd have to be insane NOT to. I'm going to take a second and point out a glaringly obvious fact that you have somehow overlooked. This is not a Robotech website. While doesn't surprise me at all that anyone with half a working brain is dissatisfied with the poor substitutes for real discussion to be had on Robotech.com and RobotechX, this is not a site for Robotech... this is MacrossWorld. If you're coming here looking for stimulating Robotech discussion (if such a thing even exists) then you're in the wrong place. If you're not a Macross fan, or at the very least actively interested in pursuing Macross, you probably won't last very long here. You would do well to consult Section III of the MW Forum Rules & Guidelines. If a Robotech fan stumbles across this thread by accident and is so incapable of accepting the simple truth that not everybody likes the same things, and that other people might capable of *gasp* making observations and forming their own legitimate opinions about Robotech, then they have far more pressing problems than finding what we have to say offensive. I get the feeling I'm going to have to remind you of this rather often... this is not a Robotech fansite. I don't mean to tell you your business, but if you want to talk about Robotech (beyond the commentary that occurs here), you'd be better served to go to a Robotech site.

I actually already have one... he's just too far away for me to use it effectively. What I posted on RobotechX was for the sake of damage control... we all know what MEMO is like. When he doesn't know the answer to something, and nobody browbeats him with the facts right away, he starts to form insane theories that have no bearing on reality, and then holds those insane theories up as the absolute gospel truth. Truly, MEMO is Robotech's answer to Shaloom. (another big check mark on the "we have one of those too" list) This thread (mainly) isn't disrespectful to Robotech fans in general... though most of us are somewhat perplexed by their blind devotion to a mostly-dead franchise run by a company that routinely abuses and mistreats them. Very few Robotech fans ever get singled out for "disrespect" here, and they're pretty much without exception the ones whose borderline-obsessive love of Robotech leads them to act like twits to such an extent that they not only publicly shame themselves, but also their fellow Robotech fans, and further blacken the already dismal reputation of Robotech. The production staff at Harmony Gold isn't much better, since most of them are the ones who are actively engaged in abusing the fanbase, and telling half-truths and spinning tall tales to exaggerate their own importance... like Carl Macek's occasional claims that Macross's creators considered Robotech a huge improvement on the original, or that Studio Nue was working for Harmony Gold "on the Robotech project" when they made Macross, or Kevin McKeever's attempts to make any kind of criticism of Robotech products out to be nothing more than the work of belligerent malcontents who have nothing better to do than complain. The legal debate in this thread ended ages ago... now it's just a vehicle for industry commentary. We're just making observations about the current state of affairs between Macross and Robotech. It's rather like a happy couple (Macross and Macross fans) watching an abusive relationship (Robotech and Robotech fans) from a distance and wondering vaguely if they should call the cops.

A distinct possibility to be sure, but how he managed to go from a commercial about a pachinko game to speculation that they'd dusted off Macross: Final Outpost: Earth boggles my mind in a way it probably should not be boggled. Then again, this is the man who, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, is claiming that Harmony Gold owns Macross lock, stock, and barrel.

I'm not aware of any official publication that actually gives the deck plans and interior layouts for the SDF-1 Macross in its pre- or post-refit form. Macross: Perfect Memory and Macross Chronicle have given interior layouts for a few areas of the ship, but the only notable bits are a bridge layout and a largely unlabeled top-down view of part of the city. I think This is Animation #11: DYRL and/or the Gold Book have an image showing how part of the city is oriented inside one of the engine blocks, but that's about it. Palladium Books and Dream Pod 9 concocted an interior layout for the Macross II-era SDF-1 Macross as part of one the supplementary materials books for Palladium's Macross II role-playing game. Naturally it's completely unofficial, but if you want to give it a look it's in Macross II: Deck Plans Volume 3.

More arch speculation from MEMO... the king of unsubstantiated claims.

What, we're not going to invite TOMMY out for pie? He'd probably be worried he'd end up WEARING it.

He told me that in the middle of a public discussion thread... one of the earlier legal threads, actually. It doesn't actually appear in the Terms of Use, but it seems to be one of those unwritten rules that is nevertheless publicly enforced. Given MEMO's recent behavior, I would say the answer to your question is yes, though I would rather see MEMO banned for his ridiculous abuses of power.

Beats me... all I know is that MEMO told me, on no uncertain terms, that we're not allowed to post links to MacrossWorld over on the Robotech.com message boards. He didn't attach any qualifying statements, he just said it was verboten and went right back to spewing nonsense.

Actually, according to MEMO1DOMINION, links to MacrossWorld are forbidden on Robotech.com... so presumably you already could get banned just for linking here.

Wow... just wow... I have found a whole new reason to like and respect Ichiro Itano. I liked Macross Frontier rather a lot, but I have to admit he makes some VERY good points about it... Two things... 1.) You mean to tell us Macross Frontier's love triangle doesn't fit that description perfectly? 2.) In my experience, love tends to make even the most rational people act like complete idiots, so it's probably not that far from being reasonable.

Nah... having wandered amongst the Robotech fans for as long as I have, I feel fairly confident in saying that most would just say "to hell with it" and give up on trying to interact with their fellow fans. Some would jump ship to other sites, and a few would try to start their own, but most just can't be arsed. How did I get lumped in with that? My project has nothing at all to do with Robotech. I will agree, you have a point that getting booted from Robotech.com hasn't exactly hindered anybody's efforts towards their particular fan projects. All banning us really accomplished was further depriving Robotech.com of intelligent and knowledgeable contributors. Considering that said contributors were already in short supply, that does kind of highlight the shortsighted stupidity of those in charge. To my mixed amusement and exasperation, it hasn't stopped the denizens of Robotech.com from asking me questions either... it's just changed the way they ask me. That might change soon too, since most of the people who refer people to me have gotten banned for reasons that make no sense. 'kay buddy, I think you might need to take a breather from the translations and your day job, you're startin' to talk crazy now. Lately, the only love for Robotech I've seen has been coming from JT/Zen72 and Whamhammer. I think it's reaching a bit to classify what dougbendo does as "showing love for Robotech", and the rest has all been commentary on the various asinine behaviors of Harmony Gold and those associated with it. Even JT's podcast had a fair bit of hate for the suckup crowd mixed in with the "love".

Y'know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were true... though I'm more inclined to suspect MEMO has left the thread open so that he can continue to present his misguided views as though they were fact, in hopes that now that those of us who know the facts are banned, he can drum up some people who actually believe him. It's an unfortunate thing for the entire Robotech fanbase. I wonder how long it'll be before it becomes a case of "if you question me at all, I'll ban you" from those two.