Seto Kaiba

Or you could examine the bigger picture and take note that your argument about the evils of science is centered around an obviously faulty assertion... that the lack of modern science and technology was ever a serious obstacle to good old fashioned murder and genocide at any point in humanity's history. We, as a species, were gleefully butchering the living hell out of our fellow man, often on religious grounds, long before modern science rolled around and made it somewhat more convenient. A lack of poison gas, nuclear bombs, and machine guns didn't stop people from having a go at each other armed and wiping whole cities off the map with nothing fancier than torches, pointy sticks, and chunks of sharpened metal or stone. The only thing science did was distance man from the act itself so he (usually) doesn't get viscera all over his shoes. As I illustrated above, it's reaching pretty damn far to point the finger at science as the cause of the Protoculture's collapse. Science facilitated things, but the ultimate cause was a good old fashioned failure to communicate and take stock of what the other party is thinking/feeling. If you want to dumb it down rather a lot, one of the core themes of Macross has ALWAYS been "See! We didn't NEED to shoot the crap out of each other! We could've talked it out!". The Protoculture failed to talk it out and so (depending on the universe) they either turned their existing weapons on each other or had a new trial weapon run amok and wipe them out. In short, their fall was facilitated by their use of advanced science and technology, but the ultimate cause was a simple failure to communicate. Now if you play this from the altogether more slapdash Robotech angle on "protoculture", the whole thing is just a fuel source that everyone is too lazy to try to find an alternative for, so they shoot the everloving hell out of each other for a bit, then humanity wins by a narrow margin and enslaves the survivors of their enemies (and any newly liberated allies) to fuel their war machine to defend against the next attempt to take their magic flowers away. That's nothing with a moral, that's just a weak excuse to justify several large wars (which is suppose is somewhat more realistic XD) and the sort of obnoxious "humanity is inherently morally and spiritually superior to aliens" malarkey that was so often the butt of jokes in the original Star Trek series.

Possible... but very unlikely IMO. I think the best potential candidate for such a thing would've been the Daedalus II-class space carrier/ramship from the Macross II prequel games, but nobody ever attempts to dock any to one of the Macross-class ships that were around at the time (that we know of). The Daedalus II-class is the only ship I'm aware of in Macross that was actually purpose-built to execute the Daedalus Attack without the support of a larger ship, so that would make it the best possible candidate. Not to dig a colossal hole in this particular argument, but what's practical and logical on the modern-day battlefield doesn't necessarily hold true for science fiction... especially not where giant fighting robots or other unconventional things abound... after all, one of our biggest American sci-fi franchises is centered around a bunch of space monks who fight with laser swords, and possibly the most iconic robot show of all frequently features giant robots fighting with swords of both the physical and laser persuasion. Would a long-range Daedalus Attack really be less practical or believable than, say, dogfighting with giant knives like we saw in Macross Frontier?

Eh, what makes you think they haven't already done so? This is MEMO we're talking about... there's a very real possibility they already snubbed his project and he was either too busy sucking up to Tommy to notice or too dense to realize that he got shot down. Either way, the odds of his "Robotech Codex" ever actually getting published are virtually nil, since he just doesn't know enough about Robotech to participate in any meaningful way in the franchise's official forums, let alone write a book. Even with help he's up poo creek without a paddle... his one avowed helper is none Doug Bendo(ver), who, if anything, knows even less about Robotech than MEMO does and just wants to impose his own views on the show and have them mistaken for canon. It really is a shame... if this project wasn't completely doomed from the get-go and was left in the hands of someone halfway capable, it could probably easily eclipse Art of the Shadow Chronicles, which is why it'll probably never see daylight. With a reputation like his it's amazing he has anything to do at all.

But who among us is actually surprised by this particular piece of news? Nobody. What a sad yet painfully predictable turn of events... Harmony Gold launches its big 25th anniversary convention tour with nothing to show for 25 years of mismanagement, ineptitude, failure, and a punishing lack of originality but a single direct-to-DVD movie that most of the anime industry ignored and the vague promise that there might be a live-action movie and another direct-to-DVD animated movie at some undefined point in the future. Their big plan for the 25th anniversary tour seems to be to trot out the same old guests they've been using since time immemorial, accompanied by a clip show everybody's seen before. Oh I don't doubt that CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK and the rest of his band of merry morons will be all over this like flies on poo (a very apt analogy, don't you think?) as soon as they notice it... probably by reading it here. I'm sure they'll read a lot into it that isn't there... how soon d'you reckon we'll all be hearing all about how Tobey Maguire dropped out on the last Spider-Man movie to work on Robotech? Or that the cancellation of Spider-Man 4 is proof positive that Tobey's putting a higher priority on Robotech? I, for one, expect no end of horseshit claims from them based on this.

Granted, it's not exactly easy to listen to all the tales of the outrageous injustices Harmony Gold is happily perpetrating against the Robotech fanbase (most of whom are guilty of nothing more than being ignorant or a bit too nostalgic) and, to a lesser extent, the Macross fanbase. At the very least, it's pretty much guaranteed to evoke a mixture of pity and disgust in the listener, if not outright dislike of the offending company. An admirably succinct summary of the situation, yes... even after being essentially forced to own up to the fact that their grand epic and its great creative vision was in truth a hastily slapped-together rewrite done on the fly using shows which just happened to be lying around unused in Harmony Gold's catalog of licensed works, they still desperately want to say that their show is better, so they trot Carl Macek out to talk about how he "improved" Macross, and try to write the originals off as essentially a second-class story whose only real value is that it became part of Robotech. Yes, the people running Harmony Gold are habitual liars and, yes, easily classified as thieves... but we all knew that already. Don't say that until you've actually had the displeasure of working with (or for) them... we don't call them the "Evil Empire" for nothing. That add-on to make the Windows Search Bar support Firefox was, if memory serves, the result of a court order stemming from the various monopoly proceedings against them in the EU. I don't think it was voluntary. They spun it as such, that's for sure...

Oh yes... I solemnly detest their casual practice of simply publishing their assumptions and speculation as though it were fact instead of doing any research. It set the trend for the decades to come, with crazy, ignorant Robotech fans who don't want to be arsed to actually watch the show (or any show) simply asserting "this is how it is, and it's no use telling me otherwise".

I can't imagine whoever told you it was a collection of "short stories and vignettes" had ever actually seen a copy of the Fate/hollow ataraxia visual novel... because that's not what it is. It's a nominal sequel to Fate/stay night, that involves a magically-induced stable time loop created by Avenger (Angra Mainyu) after the 5th Holy Grail War. It's a bit messy, story-wise, but it is supposed to be canon.

Not entirely accurate... they establish in Fate/stay night and Fate/hollow ataraxia they establish that the reason the Holy Grail isn't "as advertised" in the 4th and 5th Holy Grail Wars (depicted in Fate/zero and Fate/stay night respectively) is because it was tainted during the 3rd Holy Grail War when the Einzbern family accidentally summoned the only known instance of an "Avenger" servant, Angra Mainyu. Having the embodiment of all worldly evils and seething hate dumped unceremoniously into the holy grail at the war's conclusion is what screwed it up in the first place... both allowing magi to summon servants with an evil alignment and turning the grail from an impartial wish-granting engine into a fairly malevolent object that interprets all wishes in the context of destruction.

You'll probably find the magic in Fate/stay night tends to be relatively unobtrusive on the whole, with most of the magic being simple low-key stuff like Shiro's habit of using the only kind of magic he doesn't suck at to fix things, and Rin's occasional ineffectual projectiles. The only showy magic is the magical macguffin they're fighting over (called the holy grail, but is for all practical purposes just a magical wish-granting machine) and the battle magic employed by the "servants", who are themselves magical constructs created in the image of and bearing the souls of well-known ancient heroes and the like, created to do battle to both fuel the holy grail and determine who gets to actually use it for a wish. Odds are if the sort of shonen manga stuff you saw in Bleach didn't mortally offend you, the battle magic used in Fate/stay night won't either. Well, you won't have any issues with Fate/stay night on that front, as the whole thing is set in modern-day Japan. Agreed, though the "knight outfit" is for... well... combat purposes. Eh... personality like Asuka from Evangelion... and tsundere as the day is long. Probably because it's licensed in the west... I forget who holds the license, but it's out on slimpack DVD for like thirty bucks. I think there're torrents of the high-def version on BxT too.

Actually yeah... he claims he just doesn't like reading and that he prefers "visual media" instead. (Basically, he's an illiterate couch potato) All the same... funny stuff. Poor bastard's living in a fantasy world. He's REALLY butthurt about a number of things where I'm concerned, and is making all kinds of wild accusations.

Oh god... I got e-mails from a lurker on Bendo's show telling me to take a listen to his latest offering, which is apparently a two-hour attempt to get under my skin because I dared to offer to devote some space on my server to a RT site for the good people who've been displaced from RT.com and RTX by MEMO and Maverick's serial idiocy. Amusing enough he's accusing me of being in it only for personal gain (he literally accuses me of trying to reshape Robotech in its entirety) while he does what he does for impartial, honest motives (if your bullshit meter isn't pegged by now, it should be). He also accuses us all of being "dumbass liberal white people" elitists who think all Robotech fans are retarded and need to be educated... All that and I'm not even twenty minutes in... to paraphrase Megatron/Galvatron: "Podcast, Bendo? This is bad comedy." EDIT: Oh, and he categorically denies that he is Orguss_Prime, even though it's obvious to everyone and their dog that he is.

Well they had to get around the Fate scenario's obligatory hanky-panky somehow... and that way seems as good as any other. It did lend itself to some truly bizarre/funny comics once the fansubs started hitting the net.

No... no they don't. The topmost picture in post #51 of the thread in question is Nora Polyansky's SV-51γ from Macross Zero. It looks nothing like the red fighter from that Astro Plan promo... the color's wrong, the wings are wrong... I could go on...

Eh, it's because it's really a simplified version of the Fate scenario from the game... in the trimming-down it lost a fair bit of backstory and setting to get the show down to a manageable size. No... not even close I'm afraid. Even the original h-game's doesn't fit that particular mold. It's a reasonably well-executed visual novel with a largely shonen manga-style action/romance plot, and a surprisingly well thought-out "classical fantasy elements in the modern day"-type setting. In truth, there's precious little "h" material in the h-game, usually consisting of one brief sex scene hastily jammed in about two-thirds of the way through each story track with a weak rationalization. If not for those obligatory one or two brief hentai scenes, the game would've been an exemplary shonen fantasy story, and the developers did actually see the potential of the story to stand on its own, and released an all-ages version of the game as well. Likewise, the Fate/stay night anime series sells itself pretty much entirely on the basis of the story. To put it bluntly, everybody's clothes stay firmly on, and don't disintegrate in mid-combat like in Ikkitousen. In fact, I'd say it's far lighter on the fanservice than even Macross Frontier.

It's really funny how deep in denial Robotech fans are about it too... I was accused of lying when some twerp asked "how popular is Robotech these days?" on Robotech.com and I gave an honest answer. Spot on... Robotech might've "introduced" the few people who watched it to anime back in '85, but by no means did it set the world on fire. It'd pretty much been forgotten by '87, since it spent pretty much its entire televised run being neatly eclipsed by the "Generation 1" Transformers series. Far from being the groundbreaking release Harmony Gold wants to make it out to have been, it was pretty much just a flash in the pan show that exposed its viewers to anime as a serious storytelling medium instead of just a venue for stuff relatively silly stuff like Voltron. If any one title could reasonably be credited with the achievements Harmony Gold is trying to credit to Robotech, building awareness of anime and giving the genre wider appeal in America, it would probably have to be Dragonball Z.

It wasn't Kawamori who mentioned it... it was the interviewer who asked if the reorganization of the government was no longer the result of a coup, and Kawamori said that it no longer fit within the present reality of the universe. Lemme dig up the link. Here you go... the interview in question was printed in issue 9 of Otona Anime and the English translation gleaned from Akiba Station by Zinjo. The relevant text is near the bottom of the first post, just search in-text for "coup" and it'll come right up: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...amori+interview

Actually, didn't Kawamori touch on that in one of the interviews that was posted here a while back? I don't remember all of the particulars, but I distinctly recall Kawamori acknowledging that Macross VF-X2's coup had been the original reason for the U.N. Gov't and U.N. Spacy being reorganized into the New U.N. Gov't and New U.N. Spacy, and that he'd replaced it with a gradual, natural decentralization of the government that necessitated its reorganization and the reorganization of its military because the old explanation "no longer fit with the present reality" or words to that effect. I'd be inclined to say Kawamori's new rationale for it doesn't entirely rule out the events of VF-X2... and that rather than being the sole cause for the reorganization, the coup was just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. The interview was posted here on MW, someone just has to dig out the link... I summarized my recollection of it above. Prior to Macross Frontier, the general impression given by what we see of long-range colony operations is that the U.N. Government is a strong supranational governing body and that its territories and colonization fleets are subordinate to that central government. After the reorganization, it's explicitly provided that the New U.N. Government is more in line with our modern United Nations, and that it's a weak supranational governing body of which all its territories and colony fleets are members (the colony fleets being literal city-states until such time as they set up shop on a planet). Each colony is responsible for the maintenance of its own defense force, but can call on reinforcements from Earth (and presumably other member states).

Just goes to show... virtually none of the information provided by Harmony Gold is in any way reliable and should always be treated as extremely suspect until validated by other, more trustworthy sources. It's actually kind of funny that you should mention Robotech being a nonentity in the UK, when a year or two ago they were making a HUGE deal out of the show being briefly mentioned in some allegedly prominent British sci-fi magazine. I guess it comes as no surprise that once again Harmony Gold (and MEMO in particular) blew something minor completely out of proportion to produce the illusion that RT isn't a completely forgotten clusterfart of poor decisions. Actually, it's kind of a messy situation on that front. While Tommy did effectively make all the old comics, novels, and whathaveyou non-canon when he rebooted the continuity in 2001, he used some weasel words to get around actually saying that he'd declared fifteen years of Robotech a dead loss. I guess the best analogy to describe it would be "Schrodinger's narrative". All the stuff apart from the "original 85" and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles are the "Secondary Continuity" sources, which can fit into the story so long as they don't contradict anything. Of course, this's just a roundabout way of saying everything but the new comics is non-canon, but the awkward wording leaves it open to all kinds of abuses... like the frequent attempts to force material from the McKinney novels onto the continuity. In practice, they really can't make the licensed merchandise from the late 80s and 90s its own continuity because it's so unorganized and so internally contradictory that there's no way to form it into a single, coherent whole. The license just changed hands too often and the licensees took too many drastically different directions with it for it to ever become one universe. About the only licensed products internally consistent enough to constitute their own timeline are the novels, the rest is pretty much a dead loss and would have to be split into at least half a dozen different universes just to keep things consistent (bear in mind that's a lower bound estimate).

Yeah, it does... 's one of the few new titles I'm looking forward to. I'm hoping they'll follow this up with a movie version of the realta nua version of the Heaven's Feel scenario next... the original version'd be a bit too graphic for them to get away with it.

For his sake, I really hope MEMO's one of those people who has trouble distinguishing between "laughing with" and "laughing at". Since it's a fan project with involvement from MEMO, we can safely assume that Blake and Dartallion'll be doing all the actual work, and MEMO'll be taking all the credit in hopes that he'll finally land a job at Harmony Gold... just like he's done with everything else. It's also a safe bet that what little they do produce before giving up is going to be a bad joke. At times like this I'm reminded of an old H.L. Mencken quote: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Oh, people are learning all right... but at the core of the Robotech fanbase is a collection of people who're simply too stupid or too blinded by ignorance and nostalgia to realize that Harmony Gold's been playing them for suckers for twenty five years and counting.

Honestly, I really don't think it matters one way or the other where Australia's concerned. It's such a small market, even compared to the anime industry in America, that in terms of the potential profits involved, it really isn't worth it for Australian distributors to license, translate, and dub shows directly from Japan. It's considerably cheaper and easier for distributors in Australia to obtain the regional distribution rights to the American distributor's finished product. It's why the Australian anime industry releases lag up to several years behind the American industry, and why there's such a preponderance of imported American TV on Australian networks... it's cheaper that way. So really, even if Harmony Gold doesn't have the legal wherewithal to trademark the name "Macross" in Australia, it really doesn't matter because almost all of your anime is coming secondhand from American distributors and is just being filtered by your regional distributors. EDIT: As the above concerns the entertainment industry in Oz, we wish to remind you that it in no way reflects the opinions, views, or beliefs of the Lollipop Guild. (I know, I know, reaching for the low-hanging fruit)

To say nothing of the fact that you're even newer to Macross than you are to web forums... Saraphys hit the nail on the head... there's so much drama and rampant stupidity coming from fans of the Robotech franchise and, to a lesser extent, Harmony Gold itself, that this thread will probably never find itself short of topics for discussion or targets for a well-deserved verbal thrashing.

About three minutes of silence... why? Well, compared to many of the seemingly nonsensical decisions made by Harmony Gold's creative staff in the past few years, the decision to shed the confused mess of licensed merchandise that accumulated while they weren't paying attention to what their licensees were doing with a continuity reboot is a fairly logical decision. It might not have gone over well with the fans who'd spent a fair bit of money collecting those comics, but it was done for sound reasons... issues of low quality aside, the vast majority of those comics contradict each other and the core continuity of the series. It'd be one thing if they could fit those stories into a coherent whole, but with few exceptions they're independent one-off stories, none of which jive with each other. Most of them are just cheap, low-quality comics churned out to squeeze a bit more cash from a dying property.

There are five songs: "Stage Fright", "The Man in My Life", "To Be in Love", "We Will Win", and "It's You". There's also a partial song that crops up in episode 28 called "The Right Move".

Nah, the gold standard for overdue is definitely Five Star Stories... we've been waiting for Book XIII for how long? Five years? More? Still, as interesting as Macross: the First is, I can definitely see why people're impatient for more of it... I'm eagerly awaiting translations beyond the first chapter.