Seto Kaiba

But that's an apples and oranges comparison... you're comparing a "naked" VF-4 with no super parts or externally-mounted ordinance to a fully-loaded VF-1 Super Valkyrie. The basic armament of the VF-4 is essentially comparable to the standard combat load of an old VF-1 without super parts, though it presumably enjoys added range and endurance as the result of having built-in rocket boosters to supplement its reaction engines. Even without super parts of its own, with properly loaded hardpoints it can still rival the VF-1 Super Valkyrie in terms of ordinance. Not necessarily the case... if memory serves, all colony fleets receive routine resource replenishment from the U.N., so it wouldn't be at all out of the question for them to be receiving modest numbers of new craft along the way too. I do think that the number made (8,245) is far too small to represent the fighter's status as a main VF during the first wave of space colonization. Even if it was still being leavened out by surplus VF-1s and VF-5000s, more recent information suggests that the scale of the fleets and their use in later years should mean there are a hell of a lot more than just 8,245. Eh... while I feel the ARMD-like structures on the side of the Megaroad certainly look a good deal like ARMDs, what little up-close footage we have of them would seem to suggest that the similarity is cosmetic in nature. It's certainly possible that they used design elements from the ARMD in constructing the Megaroad's hangar though. There is, in the same source(s) referenced above, at least some evidence to support the idea that the Megaroad colony ships carried a mix of different fighters. At one point in Macross M3, a Megaroad is depicted as carrying a mix of VF-4s and VF-5000s, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that earlier ones launched before the VF-5000 was introduced may have supplemented their complement of VF-4s with VF-1s, QF-3000s, or something else. Given what's seen in Macross: Eternal Love Song, it's likely that the ones that were launched in the parallel world continuity of Macross II probably carried a mixture of VF-4 Sirens and VF-1 Valkyries. Later ships probably used the VF-1*R Attack Valkyrie to fill out their fighter complement.

No dice... and uninstalling and reinstalling Firefox 3.6.8 didn't sort it out either. The files aren't ending up in the quarantine folder or anything like that, so I'm inclined to suspect Firefox 3.6.x as the culprit rather than my antivirus software. We weren't having problems until they introduced the plug-in container, at which point the stability of the browser promptly went to hell in a handbasket. Given that the problem doesn't happen when I'm using Internet Explorer 8 or Google Chrome, my guess would be it's a problem with the way Firefox is calling the antivirus program to scan the file(s). Ah well, I guess I can file a bug report with Mozilla and run it with scanWhenDone turned off until they either fix it or roll out Firefox 4 this fall. On a note related to the originally-unrelated tangent (now that's a mouthful), I'm biting the bullet and upgrading my main machine to Windows 7 Ultimate. It previously had an OEM edition of Windows Vista Ultimate, which wasn't exactly a bad deal, but post-Service Pack 2 the Windows Search 4.0 shenanigans drove performance into the toilet by starting up at random intervals and monopolizing the hard disks for an hour or so at a stretch, even if the search indexing option was turned off.

Granted... but not a workaround I'm particularly happy with. I prefer to take a somewhat paranoid outlook on system security, since my immediate family are about as non-computer savvy as it gets, and I want to keep them from making more work for me. (To say nothing of focusing on network security technologies when I was working on my master's degree) Ah, that article somehow eluded me whilst I was searching for some rather more specific terms in the Firefox support section. Thanks for digging that out for me. It wasn't the right solution, but definitely something to hang onto for future reference at least. Have you tried pausing Norton, to see if FF downloads work? Yes, it produces the same results as disabling scanWhenDone, though I still suspect the process Firefox uses to invoke the scan or the Norton IPS plugin as the prime culprit, which lays a little blame on both sides Can you download files with IE? Yeah, though I'd never use that as my primary browser for obvious reasons Does your FF use the default downloads folder? If yes, then try setting it to prompt for a download path. Tried that, same results... Maybe reset the downloads folder: reset anything under browser.download.xxx that has the status "user set" Tried that too, just for giggles... didn't work Have you tried uninstalling and then re-installing FF? Not yet... I wanted to fix the software in place since getting my plugins back on and configured the way I like 'em would take a while.

Let's examine this closely... the VF-4 has a potentially unlimited number of combinations of ordinance it can take using its six wing/body hardpoints, whereas the VF-11 can take a set of protect armor loaded with short-range ordinance and trade its transformation and a good deal of maneuverability for armament, or it can take the standard set of super parts and carry a single long-range reaction missile in each leg bay. Of course, if we were to take the external modules out of the equation altogether since the VF-4 doesn't NEED them, we're left with an even more significant disparity in the VF-4's favor. NB: Some of the art (dated 1987) shows the VF-4 with a maximum of eight hardpoints, two inboard and two outboard of each engine nacelle. Just looking at it, that's an arbitrary maximum of four times the VF-11's anti-ship reaction ordinance, or a mixture of other missile types that may meet or exceed the capabilities of the VF-11's standard armament. I think this rather supports my hypothesis that the VF-4 wasn't a bad fighter, but rather a fighter designed to fill a need that ceased to exist with the introduction of larger colony ships. EDIT: At the prompting of Talos, it's also relevant to note that the VF-4 can trade its beam guns in for a set of 30mm gatling guns similar to those used by the VF-11, as per a Great Mechanics DX (I think) article that was translated by sketchley a while back. I believe that same article also said it could take a gunpod if need be.

Eh... you'd think if there had been a major change in tactical doctrine like the US's odd insistence that "we don't dogfight anymore", it would've been mentioned at some point. It seems a trifle odd that, if the VF-4 was as unsatisfactory as is being implied, that they would take the pains necessary to keep it in service into and beyond 2047. I'd guess that the VF-4 was the right fighter at the right time... a space-optimized VF that had all the capabilities of a VF-1 Super Valkyrie in a single compact package, for colony ships where space and resources were at a premium. As I see it, the VF-4 is ideally suited to something like a Megaroad colony mission. In an operational environment where space is at a premium, having components that would've otherwise been built into super packs built into the airframe instead and a set of main guns that don't require the production and storage of physical ammunition would both be significant virtues. Note that the VF-11 was conveniently introduced at the roughly the same time that a new model of colony ship with significantly greater space, much looser resource restrictions, and greater manufacturing capacity was pressed into service. The established colonies and majority of the local fleets wouldn't suffer from the resource and space limitations that would make the VF-4 advantageous, so they could afford to go back to using simpler (and presumably less maintenance-intensive) gatling cannons and separate super pack systems when they picked up the VF-11. IMO, it's probably more to do with appropriateness for their operating environment than than any issue of the VF-4 not being up to snuff. Doubtful, given what little visual evidence we've seen... It figured reasonably prominently in Macross M3 and Macross 7 Trash in the main timeline, and Macross: Eternal Love Song in the parallel world continuity. A reasonably prominent and important fighter in the latter case, and still in service about twenty years after being replaced by the VF-11 in the former case. On the first note, we agree... on the second, not so much... one could assert that the VF-4's six hardpoints and conformal munitions give it greater flexibility than the VF-11 with its apparent lack of hardpoints and need to be permanently wedded to a set of super parts to have weapons in space.

Hmmm... the pose is a little awkward looking, but that's one damn fine CG modeling job you did there.

Eh... there are few things in this world quite as obnoxious as someone who offers obvious advice that they've already been told point-blank doesn't work. Of course, none of this has anything to do with the question I actually asked about an odd behavior observed in Firefox 3.6.8, so what the hell guys? By way of an expanded explanation for what I've already told you, taking this system over to the NVIDIA website and using their fancy little "find the right drivers for my machine automatically" tool generates a message politely asking you to f*ck right off back to the manufacturer's website and download the version they've modified and vetted. Selecting it manually using the dropdown menus lets you get as far as running the executable, at which point it promptly informs you the card isn't supported by the current driver release, and exits. Issues of sanity aside, HP has clearly done SOMETHING to the system to ensure that even after a clean install of the OS, the only version of the drivers that'll install and work properly is the one they provide. Stupid? Absolutely. Sadistic? Very probably. A big pain in my ass? You bet. Tempting... but what I said about the system self-destructing when the hacked drivers are used for any length of time was no exaggeration. In any event, I don't really care to buy the Windows 7 update at $200+ for a machine that only gets used when my girlfriend or one of my siblings breaks their good computer. It's just not worth the money. The question I asked... and am still waiting on an answer for... is whether anyone else has experienced the aforementioned anomalous behavior from Firefox 3.6.x (any downloaded files vanish into the ether when the browser is closed when post-download virus scanning is enabled) and if anyone knows what the root cause is so I can either put together some kind of workaround and/or file a bug report with the party responsible.

Eh... I suppose it's more a matter of the hardware itself being compatible with Windows 7, but the stupid manufacturer-specific drivers for the video card aren't. The system uses a GeForce Go 7600, but the driver installer supplied by NVIDIA won't recognize the card and their site insists that it's advisable to use the driver supplied by the manufacturer. Of course, those don't work very well on Vista, let alone Windows 7. Using hacked installers to load the most recent drivers onto the system is inadvisable at best, since it breaks a fair few elements of functionality, renders the driver unstable and crash-prone, and adds an amusing overheating problem that destroyed a motherboard before we identified it. Basically, it's not that the hardware isn't theoretically compatible with Windows 7, it's that we have ample evidence to suggest that it'll literally self-destruct if we update it to the new OS.

Hey all, don't routinely post in this thread but I've been having a rather unusual issue with Firefox 3.6.x on my system and figured I would try appealing to my fellow tech-savvy Macross fans for insight and/or a solution... Let me say in advance, I know Vista sucks. This is a cheap work computer I bought for, oh, about $400 to give to whatever family member breaks their good computer... an event that happens with all the regularity of the f***ing tides. Upgrading it to Win7 isn't a viable option since the hardware won't support it, downgrading to XP isn't an option as the install disks are impossible to find, and the various flavors of Linux won't do for my technologically-inept family. Okay, so I've got a cheap little work laptop system here that's running Firefox 3.6.8 w/ Norton 2009 on Windows Vista 32bit, and ever since about Firefox 3.6.6 I've noticed that Firefox exhibits some weird behaviors when downloading files. Ever since they introduced that godawful unstable mess called the plugin container, Firefox takes bloody forever to scan files when downloading. Now, what I've noticed is that on Firefox 3.6.8 the files I download will disappear from the downloads folder when the browser window is closed. The files just flat out vanish, even if you have the folder window open and just refresh the view... they just disappear. If you use the search tool to look for them, they do appear briefly, but show as being 0kb and promptly disappear from that view too. After checking for malware and ensuring that the file system hadn't started to fall apart on me, I dug into the Firefox configuration, and found that manually setting the value of the key for browser.download.manager.scanWhenDone to "false" seems to eliminate the problem. Any idea which party is the guilty one? Firefox or Norton? (I'm inclined to go with FF, since nothing's showing up in the quarantine)

Yes and no... the 'Siren' was the first name given to the VF-4 and its first set of battroid and GERWALK modes, prior to Kawamori's return to the franchise and subsequent completion of the VF-4 design as the Lightning III you're familiar with. Its first appearance was in the PC Engine game Macross: Eternal Love Song, one of two games created as canon prequels to the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA. It was erroneously listed as VF-X-4 Siren in the game manual (an goof that was subsequently duplicated in the Macross Compendium), though was referred to as the VF-4 Siren in-game, with the base variant being the VF-4S, and the two types of super parts adding a letter to make the VF-4SP and VF-4ST. The original variant of the VF-4 Siren (implied to be VF-4A) entered service in 2014 as the fighter complement of the Megaroad-01 (not a typo, LONG STORY). By 2037, the variant in service was the VF-4S, which sported the slight modification in the form of a S-style head turret similar to the one on the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie, adding four forward-facing AA laser guns to its preexisting armament of 2 beam guns and ~12 conformal missiles. The VF-4SP Siren had super packs that boosted its missile capacity (as one might expect) and the VF-4ST Siren had super packs that provided it with extra missiles, a set of funnels (yes, like in Gundam) and a heavy beam rifle almost as long as the plane itself. Its most notable combat action was spearheading the final offensive on the Zentradi Army Burado main fleet's mobile fortress and the attack on its commander at the conclusion of the 2037 Zentradi invasion. See the attached images for some art of the VF-4S's battroid mode and forward view of its fighter mode (sans super parts). The ship in the background is the Prometheus, a Daedalus II-class ARMD/ramship. EDIT: As far as being related to the VA-1SS Metal Siren, which I forgot to cover, the VF-4S Siren isn't a direct relative of it. It is, however, a design ancestor of the VF-2SS Valkyrie II. Don't you know... noises like that are louder in space because there's no air to get in the way!

In what little animated combat footage we have for the VF-4, its large-bore beam guns are quite effective and powerful. The opening cinematic for canon videogame Macross M3 depicts Max using his VF-4's beam guns to destroy a booster-equipped Glaug in a single direct hit. If I had to guess, I would be inclined to suspect that the reason beam weapons of various types lost the battroid mode main weapon position was probably that gatling guns are mechanically simpler and cheaper to produce, and possibly that their ammo is specifically designed to penetrate energy converting armor (as per something sketchley translated, if memory serves). Of course, the VF-4 as it appears in the alternate universe stories is another case altogether. True, the U.N. Spacy in that universe eventually went back to projectile weapons (railguns, to be precise) but the VF-4(-/S/SP/ST) Siren was wildly successful... and both its integrated gun systems and gunpod were beam weapons. It had the same large-bore beam cannons as the one in the main timeline, plus the -S variants had four forward-facing laser cannons on the head, and the beam rifle strongly reminiscent of the Zeta Gundam's hyper mega launcher in both appearance and firepower (said to be a particle beam cannon). They were so brutally effective that the VF-4ST was used as an assault fighter for attacking Zentradi/Meltrandi mobile fortresses.

Isn't that pretty much the reason for half of the attendance at any given Robotech panel?

Granted... but it can't be denied that the use of super parts as standard hardware on variable fighters operating in space was apparently on the decline, given what we've seen of the models rolled out after the VF-11 Thunderbolt. One can only assume that the increase in airframe size in most cases included not only space for internal armaments, but increased fuel tankage. It'd certainly explain why the space-optimized VFs (VF-4, VF-14, VF-17, VF-19F/S) either don't have super parts or, in the case of the -17 and -19, why their super parts are only equipped on the rare occasion when extremely heavy combat is expected. With the notable exceptions of the VF-11 and VF-25, it looks like the generations following the VF-1 were largely designed not to need the added fuel and firepower of super parts under normal operating conditions. There's still a niche for them, but prior to Macross Frontier (and the VF-25 in particular) it looked like they were rapidly becoming hardware intended for use in exceptional circumstances only. Definitely befuddling... if it doesn't need them for routine operations in space, why is it they're constantly equipped with them? All things considered, with almost all of its weapons tied up in super parts, it feels like a step backwards compared to its predecessor (VF-4A) and its successor(s) (the VF-19 and VF-171). Still, my one gripe with the whole affair is its lack of a forward-facing beam gun, forcing it to depend exclusively on its gun pod (and its rather limited ammo supply) for dogfighting, whereas many other VFs have more than one forward-facing gun system. Still, I suppose the reduced complexity probably helped keep costs down, which along with its all-regime performance no doubt helped it win out over the heavier but better-armed VF/VA-14. Indeed... which is why I'm still wondering if there's anything to tell us if those VF-5000G and VF-5000T-G Star Mirages used by the Zola Patrol were new variants produced specifically for the Zola Patrol (or colony market) or if they're upgrades made to VF-5000Bs that were surplussed by the U.N. Spacy and sold to the Zola Patrol. If they're independently produced, that could speak to the VF-5000's low cost having made it an attractive option for colonies with tight budgets, which was a strong selling point in the VF-9's favor. Or, at the very least, a space-optimized variable fighter maximizing its versatility by having the option to carry a wide array of ordinance. To me, the VF-4 certainly feels like a fighter developed to be a jack of all trades for colony operations where space is at a premium. It has everything it needs for space and atmospheric operations built right into the airframe, with a set of main engines and a set of supplementary engines for each regime and most of its weapons mounted internally or at least conformally. Once space and resources weren't at a premium anymore, they could afford to take fighters that had optional external equipment to improve their capabilities again.

Eh, was it ever in any doubt? Most of this noise about the convention panel being a spectacular event and the site of the next big reveal was coming from Maverick_LSC and MEMO1DOMINION, a duo known for being habitual liars and shameless Harmony Gold apologists. After all, Maverick is an emasculated husband who ardently desires to be a "big name fan" to compensate for the fact that his wife treats his hobby as something shameful to be concealed from their friends, and MEMO is probably still operating under the assumption that if he sucks up to Tommy enough and continues to purge his critics from the fanbase, Tommy'll offer him a job at Harmony Gold. They tell lies like that in a desperate attempt to make it look like they're insiders, and as part of a rather unsuccessful bid to keep what's left of the online fanbase from realizing that the franchise is going nowhere and has been for a long time. So, in short, Harmony Gold continues to live down to our expectations by accomplishing nothing and telling the fans bugger all, then attempting to disguise their lack of progress and talent by endlessly hyping the same repackaged goods from five years ago. It's nice to know that even after 25 years of ineptitude and failure, Harmony Gold hasn't changed a bit.

It was meant to be... after all, the only reason the "Space" channel exists is because the CRTC wanted to stop Canadian cable and satellite providers from importing the SciFi Channel, done in the name of maximizing the amount of "Canadian content" on the air. Rather a pointless gesture, since a lot of what they're running is shows purchased from the SciFi/SyFy channel and run in a delayed airing.

No problem... I didn't like Macross 7 Trash very much either, but I've got a good memory for details, and it just sort of jumped out at me when I read it, along with the classic ARMD in the 37th Colony Fleet and Mahara's partner's converted QF-3000E. Inferences nothing, we have hard facts about the weapons... and the ability to carry a diverse assortment of munitions for a wide variety of operations was one of the major selling points of the main VF that replaced the VF-11 too... the VF-171 Nightmare Plus. Now you're injecting an unsupported inference onto what the sources actually say. Yes, the VF-4 was found to be lacking in atmospheric performance, but as Chronicle said it was a fighter that was geared towards space combat anyway... so I guess you could call it deficient by design. The VF-4 and VF-5000 were, as Chronicle said, replaced not because they were bad or inadequate, but because the U.N. Spacy wanted to have an all-regime fighter again. It's just that simple. One could argue that the move toward internal munitions bays and micro-missile launchers was in all likelihood a move intended to eliminate, or at least reduce the need for, super parts. They do go so far as to point out that (conventional) super parts were considered undesirable on the VF-19 prior to improvements in the active stealth system that relaxed the restrictions a bit. Indeed... that's the VF-4{S/SP/ST} Siren from Macross: Eternal Love Song, one of the two NEC PC Engine games created to fill in part of the gap between the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie and Macross II: Lovers Again OVA. It did, as you've said, have a set of optional FAST packs where it kept (among other things) its funnels. (Yes, you read that right, the VF-4 Siren's super parts had Gundam-style funnels, though computer-controlled like the GN Fangs from Gundam 00 instead of by psycommu like normal funnels in the Universal Century) No, the VF-4 Siren never had dual gunpods... it did, however, have a VERY large beam rifle oddly reminiscent of the Zeta Gundam's hyper mega launcher... (possibly brought about by the fact that the OVA's mechanical designers had worked on Zeta Gundam, Gundam ZZ, and Char's Counterattack before working on Macross II and its prequel games)

Well, I'm glad you appreciate my candour... though make no mistake, I prefer to tell it like it is whenever possible, so I'll probably say something that'll piss you off sooner or later. Perhaps "object to" is insufficiently strong for what I'd intended. There aren't many people in the Macross fandom who actively dislike Robotech as a whole. There are plenty of people, even in the Robotech fandom, who dislike part of Robotech. The Shadow Chronicles movie is only the most recent example of this principle. It doesn't necessarily mean those people hate and/or look down on the whole thing. If I might draw on an example, the podcaster Zen72/JT strongly objects to Shadow Chronicles, and we've spent many an hour bagging on it together... yet that doesn't mean he dislikes the rest of Robotech. There will also be people who object to rewrites like Robotech, but on the whole there aren't many people who actively dislike the entire thing and choose to make a fuss about it instead of just ignoring it. This makes a sharp contrast to Robotech fans, who are being actively encouraged to take umbrage over anything to do with Macross... to such an extent that they all too often go so far as to label anyone who disagrees with them and happens to like Macross as a "Macross purist troll". If we take McKeever at his word... yes, it is too hard. The official line on the matter is that they can't (or won't) make a new TV series unless they can first get an episode commitment from a network. Since Robotech is obscure and fairly unpopular in anime circles, no network wants anything to do with it. Even Canada's SyFy channel knockoff dropped Robotech pretty quickly after only allowing it to run in the nosebleed timeslot of 7:00am Saturday morning. And it is awesome! It's a nice suggestion in theory... but unfortunately due to copious sucking-up and being in the right place at the right time, the guys who've sold their souls for what they fondly imagine is insider status are the ones who have largely been entrusted with maintaining the fan community, so the passionate-yet-sane fans are a dwindling band who are increasingly being labeled outcasts and heretics in their own fandom... it's quite sad.

Bloody hell, I just realized I never actually responded to the thread topic post... better late than never, right? (and I promise I won't multipost like this again... having kind of an airhead afternoon) Now, I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion that the VF-11 Thunderbolt is almost certainly the most widely produced VF out there. It did, after all, have the good fortune to enter service right around the time Earth started launching the large-scale long distance colony missions. If we take the 37th to be typical of those fleets, most of the ones launched before the VF-171 was put into production probably had upwards of 1,500 VF-11's... and that's not even close to their theoretical maximum capacity. (Given the carrying capacity numbers in Chronicle and elsewhere, it would appear that they're operating at about a fifth of their maximum capacity) Likewise, I agree that the second most successful VF is probably the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, but I'm hesitant to estimate the numbers that high since it was introduced in that era where colony fleets were allowed to determine their own defenses. Some fleets nominally went for an all-Ghost approach, and presumably others opted to continue producing the fighters they were already in the process of introducing (like the VF-19). I'd agree with the VF/VA-14 wholeheartedly, since that supposedly enjoyed a great vogue with the colony market as a space fighter, and was used on survey missions and whatnot as well. Not my favorite VF, but undeniably effective given that it lost out in Project Nova and STILL managed to do extremely well for itself... even after being captured and jammed full of alien hardware. The one area where I'd probably differ is in the VF-5000... it was a lost-cost atmospheric counterpart to the VF-4, which means that since they seem to favor repulsing the Zentradi in space, stocking up on 'em probably wasn't a high priority. It makes me wonder if the VF-5000G and T-G used by the Zola Patrol are upgraded military units that were surplussed out, or new models made for the colony market.

Well, clearly that's going to have to be updated/corrected with the new information, now isn't it? Makes me wish I was a faster translator, but you can't have everything in life... Refer to my previous post... I was talking about the mind system from Macross 7 Trash, which is either a spirita weapon or at least extremely close to one in principle, being that it's a system for collecting and weaponizing negative emotional energy. It's from Macross 7 Trash, one of the canon manga titles from the main continuity. Nothing at all... except, y'know... the Macross Compendium, Macross Chronicle, Macross 7 Trash... quite a list when you think about it. It wasn't the MAIN variable fighter, but there's no denying that it was still in service as late as 2047. You might want to check your facts before posting so we don't have to wade through a big list of corrections each time. Does it say "exceeds in every category" or "completely surpasses"? No. It doesn't. In fact, it's quite vague about how the VF-11 supposedly surpasses the VF-4 and VF-5000, though the previous paragraph seems to imply it surpasses them in flight performance, not necessarily other fields like armament. As such, most of my points still stand. Also, it doesn't help to throw something sketchley pointed you to earlier today at me and act as though you'd known it all along. Isn't it? It makes the fighter a bigger target, impairs stealthiness (of course that kind of goes out the window anyway when you're talking giant robots), and without them the VF-11C is armed only with a gunpod and rear-facing laser. Compare that to the fighters that don't need super packs to carry a normal combat load, like the VF-4, VF-5000, VF-14, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22, etc. Ooookay... so your assertion here is that a fighter that doesn't have/use wing hardpoints and relies exclusively on micro-missiles stored in its super packs is less versatile than a fighter that has semi-conformal missiles recessed into the airframe AND multiple hardpoints for carrying a wide variety of munitions? To quote an old robot phrase... "Does not compute". Anyway, the idea that the VF-4's guns are insufficient falls flat on two fronts. One, there is another, rather successful fighter that also relied on beam armaments... the VF-27. Also, there are VF-4 variants that can (and do) use 30mm gatling guns instead of beam cannons. Though I'm not sure how credible it is (and would suggest treating it as unfounded speculation until such time as we source it), I've also heard some noise about some sources saying the VF-4 can also take a gunpod. Maybe sketchley can shed some light on that last note, since he's done a few of the Great Mechanics articles. As a side note, the Zentradi Army might also want a word with you for your "beam guns alone won't cut it" position... Not to rain on your parade, but your self-congratulations here seem somewhat premature. Just because the VF-11 eventually replaced the VF-4 as the main variable fighter doesn't necessarily mean it was better in every way... just that it was an improvement in the fields the U.N. Spacy felt needed improving or focusing on. (Which, of course, the kind people at Chronicle have helpfully pointed out for us)

Okay, on review of the material I may be slightly mistaken. It's somewhat unclear whether or not the so-called "mind system" in Macross 7 Trash is a spirita weapon or if the technology's just similar. Either way, it's basically a beam weapon that runs on emotional energy. The system was apparently installed on a flight of VF-4's for testing, where it resulted in the destruction of one of the aircraft and the death of its pilot. The manga's kind of vague as to dates, but as it was what prompted 1st Lt Mahara Fabrio to retire at the start of the manga, it was presumably in either early 2046 or late 2045. Either way, they didn't exactly have as shortage of VF-4's if the test flight was anything to go by. There were a good two or three dozen of 'em out at once. (Not quite as bizarre as seeing the classic ARMD design mingling with other ships in the 37th Colony fleet, or a QF-3000E converted into a two-seat leisure spacecraft... but it's close)

But that, in and of itself, raises another question... why would the U.N. Spacy return to using a jack-of-all-regimes fighter like the VF-11 when they know the vast majority of the combat the fighters would see would be in space? One can only wonder why they went with an all-regime unit like the VF-11 and then went right back to regime-optimizing variants in the next generation of main VFs. Perhaps the VF-11 was every bit as underwhelming in other space conflicts as the ones attached to the 37th Colony Fleet were against the Varauta Army's VF/VA-14-derived mecha, designs based on a fighter that excelled in space performance. As far as I know, the whole business about the VF-4 having an unacceptably high cost-performance ratio is a Robotech-ism... their explanation for why the VF-X-4 (which they call YF-4) is conspicuously absent after the "Macross Saga". On reflection, I think he probably got that idea from the VF-5000 entry on the Compendium Wiki. It doesn't look like the article's been updated to account for the fact that the VF-5000 shared the main fighter designation with the VF-4 due to their being regime-optimized. Right now, it's still using the statement that the VF-5000 ousted the VF-4 as main VF due to its lower costs. (For me, it's kind of strange seeing all this stuff that's come to light in Chronicle about the VF-4 and VF-5000 being a space-and-atmosphere tag team like the VF-2SS and VF-2JA, since I don't recall seeing anything explicit to that effect prior to Chronicle... of course, it could just be that the focus of my research was on the parallel world continuity exclusively until recently.) I definitely agree that the VF-11 and VF-171 are probably the most prolific VFs out there in the main continuity, though I wouldn't be so hasty to discount the VF-14, since it supposedly enjoyed a great vogue with colony planets, emigration fleets, and survey fleets after its introduction.

It is a bit ugly, isn't it? I'm not too fond of the VFs that transform such that the shoulders don't look like they have a full range of motion... the Pheyos is another one that's on my list for that. Still, the current VF-4 battroid mode isn't the original one... it used to look a lot more like a VF-1 battroid, with a head turret similar to that of the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie. Isn't that a Robotech-ism? It might just be that I'm exhausted after a long day at work, but I don't remember any Macross publication that calls the VF-4 too expensive as a main VF or not capable enough to cover a variety of mission roles. Just going by what we see of them in the canon depictions, the U.N. Spacy seems to like them just fine all the way up through the 2040s. Hell, they were even used as a test platform for newly developed spirita weapons during the war with the Varauta Army. The U.N. clearly still thought they were useful, since they did keep upgrading them to keep them in service as late as 2047. (This is, of course, to say nothing of the parallel world continuity of Macross II... in which the VF-4 Siren was enormously successful. It remained in frontline service for over fifty years with evolutionary upgrades, and it made several technological "firsts"... including being the first VF in all of Macross to canonically mount a beam rifle, and the second to have its own complement of pilot-controlled drone craft, the first being the VF-2SS Valkyrie II from the same continuity) EDIT: To clarify the above, I'm talking production order in terms of shows... chronologically the VF-4ST Strike Siren was first out with pilot-controlled drones Clearly superior in all areas? That's going to be a hard sell to make... after all, the VF-11 only carried missiles in its super parts, while the VF-4 didn't need super parts at all. Plus the VF-4 also had, by all accounts, six hardpoints for under-wing munitions, of which we never really see the VF-11 with any. Of course, there's the issue of the VF-11 having somewhat more main engine power, but the VF-4 also has two other sets of engines for which thrust ratings aren't known at the present time (a set of ramjets and a set of rocket boosters). The VF-4 has integrated forward-facing guns, while the only beam gun on the VF-11 faces rearward and it has to use its gunpod for any close-range engagements in all modes. There ya go... I've poked a couple pretty sizable holes in the VF-11's alleged superiority in all areas, and I'm not even trying yet.

Yeah, you and me both. My only real beef with Robotech is that in 25 years the people who "created" it never really managed to do anything original with it, and just keep milking the same three TV shows for a quick buck instead, which is really more a beef with Harmony Gold than it is with Robotech itself. Lots of folks in mecha circles object to Harmony Gold, even the ones who aren't Macross fans, because they act like apefaces. There are very few folks in the Macross fandom who genuinely object to Robotech itself, though it might not be their cup of tea. So, we just need to trick them into looking up when it's raining, right?

Oh, I'd say that happened right around the time Maverick and MEMO finished banning or otherwise driving fans away from the major online hubs of Robotech fan activity, leaving only those fans who agree with their views or are too scared or apathetic to voice a dissenting opinion and get properly banned like everyone else who genuinely gives a flip about Robotech. Indeed, that is strange... but let's not forget that many of those behaviors stem from the lies and exaggerations that Carl Macek and Harmony Gold were spoon-feeding the fans for something on the order of fifteen years. I think the reason these hostile behaviors are far more visible and even condoned and encouraged in the Robotech fandom is because these are people who have spent years or decades being told flat-out that the original shows are vastly inferior and that they have no value or merit outside of their inclusion in Robotech. In recent years, the lies coming from Macek and HG have expanded to the point where they've gone so far as to claim that Macross's creators think Robotech is better and sought to imitate it in the later Macross sequels. In the end, they're part of the "outlandish claim" set, but the outlandish claims they're basing their hostility on aren't their own... they're Harmony Gold's. Others adopt the practice of hating on the show's origins as a way to validate their own faith in the show in an industry that considers Robotech an example of practices that are now obsolete and unacceptable. They really don't NEED to do it, but I suppose they must feel a bit threatened when Macross fans bang on about all of its various sequels while the boys at Harmony Gold are still struggling to wrap up the overlong intro cut scene called Shadow Chronicles. Well, we'll find out sooner or later... from the tone of his coverage of the comics, I get the distinct impression it's more the "I feel obligated to do something special for the 25th" than genuine enthusiasm... but who knows, maybe this is like a bad movie marathon for him and he's enjoying the suffering? Y'see, the problem is that this sort of hostility is actually being encouraged by Harmony Gold and its volunteer staffers. So you've got the one side (Macross fans) that doesn't care much what the other says or days, and the other side (Robotech fans) that takes umbrage over every little thing that could be taken as a slight against their favorite show or those responsible for editing it together. For the most part, it's a one-sided vendetta. About the only thing we can really muster when they get going is a mixture of exasperation and a vague feeling of disgust.

For at least as long as I've been involved, directly and peripherally, in the goings-on of the Robotech fanbase, the fans have always been slaves to trends. This recent trend of fans putting out blogs and podcasts is just the latest in a long line of things they've done to try and convince themselves they aren't flogging the bleached skeleton of a long-dead horse. Back when I first found Robotech.com, it was the forum-based RPGs that were really trendy. Everyone wanted to run their own, and it eventually turned into a fight. After that, it was the social "bar" threads, which predictably turned into a fight after choking the life out of the site's off-topic section. These days, it's blogs and podcasts. Ever since JT came onto the scene and garnered the favorable attention of voice actors and the like, every wanna-be big name fan in Robotech's fanbase is starting their own blog or podcast in the hopes they too will get recognized for it. Predictably, that also devolved into a protracted flame war between the guy who earned his kudos and the wanna-be bigshots. Like all other trends in the Robotech fanbase, this one proved to be short-lived. Just one or two credible folks hopped on the bandwagon before the idiot brigade rolled in with the drama and tried to ruin it for the sake of their own self-advancement. At least the sane ones freely admit that there's just not enough to talk about to keep going for long, and will stop once they run out of material. Part of the reason is, I think, that he's coming back to resume his blogging after having made all that noise about how he was going to quit because there was nothing going on worth talking about anymore. Now that he's come back, it's got people wondering why. Some of the fans that I talked to about it were speculating that he's worried JT is usurping his niche as the one sane voice among the vocal fans. On the other hand, the majority said that it feels like he's doing what he's doing because he feels obligated to do SOMETHING for the anniversary rather than out of any genuine renewal of interest in the franchise. In any case, slogging through the old comics that most of the fanbase hates and would like to forget has already been done to death by a dozen other defunct blogs and podcasts already. Ask Harmony Gold and their volunteer moderators... they're the ones responsible for stirring up most of the hostility. Unless they instill the remaining Robotech fans with a borderline militant devotion to the franchise, almost all of them would move on to other, far better shows in short order. It's that militant desire to defend Robotech from any and all criticism (legitimate or otherwise) and their bizarre conviction in Robotech's alleged superiority that ends up as the underlying reason for most of the conflict out there. Yes, you CAN love both... though good luck convincing the loyal Robotech fans of that. These days, they consider even the most innocent, well-intentioned statement of "Well I like something about Macross better" to be flame-bait and trolling of the worst order. In the eyes of the Robotech hardliners, yes. Despite knowing rather a lot about RT and cherishing a sort of bizarre nostalgia for the series, I'm persona non grata on virtually all surviving Robotech fansites because of my preference for Macross. Of course, a handful of Macross hardliners would say the same thing going the other way, but they're rarer and quieter than the Robotech ones.