Seto Kaiba

That's a very important point, because HG has really been taking advantage of this and people generally don't care about the differences. Yeah, that's an ongoing problem with Robotech... and it's a misconception that Harmony Gold has put a fair amount of time and effort into cultivating, partly because it gets them kudos they don't deserve and partly because it discourages the people who're unaware of the truth from exploring real Macross. It just goes to show that ignorance is about the only thing that kept Robotech limping along since 1987 or so...

Kind of... that's how it was back in the 90's, back before there was anything like official information on Robotech. Lots of fans (mistakenly) treated the Robotech RPG as a sort of encyclopedia and technical manual for the series, mainly because back in those days it was pretty much the only publication providing any level of detail about the Robotech setting, characters, mecha, etc. It wasn't until the Robotech fandom went online that they started to get alternatives... the uRRG and, later, the Infopedia. Nowadays, the "mainstream" fandom doesn't see the Palladium RPG as a valid source of information at all... even though the new books have supposedly been vetted for accuracy by Tommy. Most fans adhere to the popular position that the only stuff that counts in the rebooted Robotech continuity are the "original" series, the Shadow Chronicles movie (and related material), and the Wildstorm comics. They've cottoned onto the uRRG's stance that the RPG is nice, but completely unreliable when it comes to what's what because of all the liberties taken with the material in the name of game balance... if not because of the contradictions that crop up between even the new, vetted version and the official materials published around the same time.

But they already have Palladium Books. Ugh... no, the problem with Palladium Books isn't as simple or straightforward as being a creatively and/or ethically bankrupt outfit trying to keep a decades-old bad idea limping along on life support in an industry they don't understand. Based on my experiences with them, Palladium Books isn't a bad company by any means. IMO, their main problem is a mixture of laziness, overestimating their capabilities, and phenomenally bad luck. QFT. Odd coincidence, I was actually having a discussion about exactly this with Talos just the other day. I've never been a fan of Battletech and/or Mechwarrior, mostly because the fecking awful mechanical designs put me off the prospect. The designs I remember were uniformly awful. Like the kind of thing a middle school kid with a surfeit of graph paper might draw if he were really bored and short of artistic merit.

Hm... I think you've got the right idea, but rather the wrong culprit. As miles316 pointed out, the old man was a geneticist who studied the people of Mayan. The defector with all the VF know-how was Roy's mentor, D.D. Ivanov. Totally... esp. since Macross Chronicle teased us a little by throwing several of the Advanced Valkyrie designs into the Variable Fighter "genealogy" chart, incl. the VF-X-7. I'd prefer it to be in a canon source, but I'll cheerfully take something like Master File if they do it first.

IIRC, it only talks about the specific development, capabilities, and service history of the SV-51 itself... Which is all well and good, but doesn't address the actual point of contention... namely, the circumstances under which the UN acquired the variable system. Nora isn't saying that they developed a working VF before the UN did. She's saying that the UN "obtained" the technology that makes the transformation possible and/or the design concept from some company or group with ties to the AUN. Nothing you've quoted there renders that assertion impossible.

Eh... I don't think we can definitively say that Nora was lying or twisting the truth here. Granted, OTEC was the agency responsible for researching the alien technology from the Macross... they just weren't the only ones developing practical applications of their discoveries. It's entirely possible that she's telling the truth, and that the variable system was developed by a company either in her homeland or one of the companies involved in the development of the AUN's mecha, and was legitimately appropriated by the UN for its weapons development programme. As a national separatist, Nora'd definitely be inclined to see it as theft because she's opposed to the UN and thus any technology-sharing initiatives it may have initiated.

Well, duh... drop a bombshell like that in a place like this, and it's pretty much inevitable someone'll call you a madman. Still, in all seriousness, the plot outline for Shadow Rising and the eventual conclusion of what we'll call "the Shadow saga" isn't a particularly enlightening read. A lot of what's in it is just facepalm-worthy, in all the worst ways. (I particularly love how the freshly reincarnated Zor's solution to the whole plot is "I'll build a big damn gun!".)

Blew your mind, did I? D.D. and Nora say otherwise in Macross Zero... in one of their conversations in the OVA, they say something to the effect that the UN didn't develop the variable system on its own, but rather acquired it from its original creators. I'd have to dig out my M0 Blu-Rays to be sure of the exact line, but that's probably what Kurisama is talking about. No problem.

Eh... really, calling that leaked document a "script" for Shadow Rising is obscenely generous. It's actually nothing but an outline of the story for "Shadow Chronicles Part II" that covers and conveys the salient bits of the story. The leaked document also had some brainstormed plot points for the conclusion of the OVA (Part III and/or IV), which gives the impression that they were trying damn hard to imitate Macross. The whole affair is only like five and a quarter pages long. Buddy, that alone makes you certifiable.

Yes, both Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song take place only in the Macross II "parallel world" continuity. Yes. Yeah, there's a fair amount of activity in the periods between the various titles of Macross II's universe. It's mostly outlined in a series of articles that were run in Newtype, Animage, and B-Club to promote the series. The Zentradi and Meltrandi remain the big threat on the horizon, with a lot of minor skirmishes in the aftermath of Space War 1 and a fair few large-scale attacks which occurred in 2036, 2037, 2054, and 2082. The war in 2054 was a real big mess, which pulverized a lot of the UN Spacy's forces during a massive sustained engagement at Pluto's orbit, but the aftermath of the war led to major advancements in technology that eventually manifested in all of the new ships and mecha seen in Macross II. The 2082 invasion, which Sylvie alludes to in the OVA, was an overwhelming victory for the UN Spacy thanks to their new toys and a refined Minmay Defense... and also is kind of a thinly-veiled reference to Macross II being the 10th Anniversary show. Among the other points of interest are having dedicated civilian Valkyries appear in 2051, the use of both Macross- and Megaroad-class ships for space colonization, etc. EDIT: Typo'd the date of civilian VF introduction, the first model came out in 2051.

You missed one... the advancements in overtechnology that made the VF-2SS, etc. possible in Macross II: Lovers Again came from reverse engineering (copying) the overtechnology from captured Zentradi factory satellites.

No, why would there be? Harmony Gold's Robotech "creative team" is more or less just a collection of ethically and intellectually bankrupt fanboys who, like their idol Carl Macek, haven't a clue that the industry has moved on in the past 25+ years and looks back at shows like Robotech as examples of bad, obsolete business practices. As >EXO< noted, if the people in charge of the Robotech franchise acknowledged how dire things are, it'd be tantamount to telling their bosses that there's no reason to keep any of them on payroll anymore. Really, who would? I mean, why would any sane investor want to sink his or her money into a project run by people who have going on thirty years of nothing but abject failure to their names? Robotech has virtually zero name recognition and a frankly lousy reputation, so making a surprise comeback isn't exactly a likely prospect. Just on that basis, it's already not exactly the most tempting prospect for a prospective investor... and the mother of all red flags goes up once you've noted that even the Robotech franchise's owners are unwilling put more than the bare minimum amount of money behind it. Who would want it? It'd be a nice change of pace, but that's assuming he actually cares. He's kept a non-performing asset like Robotech around for decades now... I'd call that a pretty serious case of "couldn't be arsed". Robotech's owners seem to be content with the current status quo and the feeble trickle of revenue that Robotech generates by preying on the nostalgia-blinded. Agrama is probably rather more interested in his properties that actually make decent bank, which pretty well means that Robotech isn't even on the fiscal radar. Very likely... either him or Maverick_LSC. Near as I can tell, Steve doesn't actually give a damn about the day-to-day running of Robotech.com. He only gets involved when someone (usually a mod) forcibly redirects his attention to the ever-increasingly dismal activities on the boards. MEMO and Maverick are both keen to suck up to their respective heroes (Tommy and Kevin respectively) in the hopes of getting insider status, so they're the most likely candidates... seeking favor by eliminating fans in the community who have misgivings about the way things are run. I think every sane Robotech fan reaches that point eventually... being a fan just isn't worth the frustration, since the Harmony Gold company line dictates everything and admits no realistic viewpoints, and the absence of actual releases means that the fanbase has nothing to do but bicker and turn on itself. Lies! We all know that you learned everything you ever needed to know about sex in the 80's was taught to you by the Waltrip Sentinels series and the Swimsuit Spectacular!

Unlikely... the management at Harmony Gold is unwilling to invest more than a pittance in a title that has guaranteed sales to the gullible fanboys, and by their own admission outside investors in Robotech are hard to come by. Rebooting the series sounds like a good idea right up to the point where you realize that they'd end up doing it on an even smaller budget than what they're already working with, there being essentially no reason to expect a return on investment from people who can and frequently do screw up what ought to be a sure thing.

Further to my last, I checked... this is in fact the case. As far as Robotech's swiss cheese-canon is concerned, "Lunk" is only his nickname. His real name is listed as "Jim Austin" on his Infopedia page.

Huh... score one for me, I predicted they'd eventually do something like this way back in '07. Over the years since Shadow Chronicles, it's been getting progressively more obvious that "the powers that be" at Harmony Gold are determined to avoid anything that might provide Macross's owners with even a flimsy reason to take them to court. It almost feels like they're afraid Big West is keeping an eye on them and just waiting for them to slip-up, though it's a safe bet they're worried that a legal battle over Macross could destroy the Robotech franchise... either by costing so much that the higher-ups pull the plug on Robotech, or by further limiting their rights to the most only profitable segment of Robotech. Their avoidance of anything which might invite unwanted attention from Macross's owners has been pretty blatant ever since Prelude, when Tommy took every Macross holdover who wasn't critical to the plot and either killed them or put them on a bus.

Dunno... IIRC, the official position is that "Lunk" is just an unflattering nickname for him, and his real name is Jim.

Yeah, my take on him is similarly mixed. Really, I think most of what he does probably isn't intended to be trollish. I don't know if he still does it, but back before I got the boot for "causing pain and suffering" his main problem was that he was annoying the piss out of people with his wanna-be mod routine. The thing about him that always annoyed me was the way he often tried (unsuccessfully) to pass himself off an expert through a mixture of rephrasing the posts of knowledgeable fans (invariably introducing errors along the way) and making sh*t up. IIRC, he was the one who started the rumor that Sayonara no Tsubasa was going to be the last Macross show ever. Bah, Pizza the Hutt wasn't my fault either... I didn't invite him here, all I did was expose him to some proper Macross to see if eroding his ignorance would make him less of a belligerent tit. To a certain extent, it actually worked. What got him kicked on these forums wasn't being a crazy Robotech zealot, it was an incredibly offensive joke he'd told to bash the very same zealots he'd been supporting a month or so before. The only crazy Robotech zealots who ever followed me here to make trouble are perennial idiots MEMO1DOMINION, Maverick_LSC, and dougbendo.

Oh, that mook... yeah, I remember him. I think my first run-in with him was when a friend of mine who was still crazy enough to be reading the Robotech.com forums tried to sic me on him over some crazy comparison he was making between the "new" destroid models in Robotech II: the Sentinels and the destroids in Macross II: Lovers Again based on, IIRC, the wildly-inaccurate stats the Palladium RPG gave for both. Just an exercise in giving me a headache, really... since last time I tried to count the errors in the Palladium Macross II RPG, I gave up out of boredom with three books remaining after the count exceeded 200. Other than that, I think the only times I've seen his posts and/or heard his name come up in conversation was when he started freaking out and screaming at people after someone in a debate pointed out that, in WH40K setting, the Emperor is thought to have been many of the famous historical religious figures (e.g. Jesus) before he ended up as a permanent fixture on his huge bling-y toilet back on Earth. He went completely apesh*t over that and started blathering on about how it was blasphemy. After that, I can't say it surprises me in the least that he's a multiply-banned mega-troll even on Robotech.com. I wonder what made him come here? Is he just missing a healthy sense of self-preservation, or what? Heh... if renegadeleader1 is right, and that's really RiverJack, I suspect "banning" will be his ultimate fate in fairly short order. You have no idea... If you want to hear a funny story, dig this: About a week and a half ago, I got an e-mail from Rhade over at Robotech.com informing me of his intention to appeal my ban and get me reinstated on the forums there.. It seems that things have gotten so bad over there that they're hoping that getting me to come back will bring people back to the forums and revive the place a little. I told him to go ahead, mostly because I was completely unable to tell if he was serious or just taking the piss... but I later found out that he actually meant it. No luck on that front so far (not that any of us would seriously expect there to be)...

"How" they can be so ignorant in this day in age is probably the wrong question to ask here... being ignorant isn't just something endemic to Robotech fandom in general, their ignorance is something that Harmony Gold has been carefully cultivating for years now. Keeping the fanbase as ignorant as possible when it comes to Robotech's origins and actual standing in the industry is the second biggest factor keeping the franchise limping along, right behind the nostalgia of their aging fans. Without the fanbase's willful ignorance, the Robotech fandom would've dried up and died long ago. Apt! It's a good comparison... one that works well with their ignorance and their general belligerence towards anyone who isn't singing from the same psalter they are.

Oh ho... So, when Harmony Gold was faced with a choice between two really bad ideas - redubbing Love Live Alive or slapping together another "original" piece of Shadow Chronicles-grade suck - they decided to up the ante by doing both, thus making twice their usual number of phenomenally bad decisions! I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disgusted.

You left out the part where the "DVD extra" in question is a heavily revisionist and biased version of a story that most of them already own a more honest version of. Essentially, the Robotech fans attending this "premiere" are dressing up and heading over to Harmony Gold to watch the addition of a few more colorful distortions the heavily rose-tinted "company line" on Carl's contribution to one of the most embarrassing chapters in anime history. Oh, it's inevitable... in their desperate attempts to have their show and their company taken seriously, Harmony Gold managed to alienate not only the greater portion of the Robotech fandom, but also significant portions of Macross and Battletech's fan bases as well. In a very real way, they're running out of people they haven't pissed off yet.

Yep... and to reboot Robotech without having Macross in it would be sacrificing the show's single biggest point of appeal for the overwhelming majority of its fans. In short, it's suicide. It does a bit, doesn't it? All the same, isn't that exactly what Robotech is? A really convoluted and stupid Macross fanfic? (If not the series itself, then at the very least Tommy's rebooted Robotech universe is definitely an unnecessarily convoluted and obnoxious piece of fan-fiction.)

Eh... put simply, Claude Leon really got it in the shorts during the adaptation process. At some point in the process of adapting Southern Cross into Robotech, Claude Leon went from being merely inflexible as a leader to being a complete and total arse. Editing and rewriting changed his characterization and made him into an arrogant, caustic, and excessively confrontational commander with a mildly racist/xenophobic attitude. The fan base's antipathy for Commander Leonard definitely contributed to the Masters Saga's position as the least popular Robotech saga by a MASSIVE margin, and it lives on as a part of Tommy Yune's rebooted Robotech universe. Under the new creative director, Leonard upped the ante from just being a jerk and went full-blown villain when the limited comic series Robotech: From the Stars established that he was actually a spy working for Robotech's equivalent of the Anti-UN Alliance and trying to destroy the United Earth Government from within. Among other stuff, Leonard worked to sabotage development of the VF-1, staged attacks on aircraft carrying civilians, and orchestrated an attempted coup that involved hijacking an ARMD and using its reflex warheads to wipe out the three major UEG military bases on Earth (and succeeded in nuking one off the map, and possibly a grand cannon as well). I dunno about the bit where the three mounds are supposed to contain the remains of the SDF-1, SDF-2, and Khyron's ship... they only say it contains the SDF-1, but the new comics show Khyron's ship in another one of the domes, so it's all gravy there. There's no mention of radiation of any kind in the Shadow Chronicles art book tho... What part of that comes as a surprise? Please do... spontaneous cranial explosion sounds like a real pain to clean up after... Heh... he didn't seem to have much trouble in the old Sentinels comics, and they were both pretty much that way even back then.

HE CAN BE TAUGHT! Admittedly, a trenchant remark or two wouldn't do you any good in this situation anyway... you don't just resemble that remark, you're fairly well known as one of the foremost practitioners of that particular "tactic". I didn't even need to say it, someone already beat me to the punch: Hm... well, both are actually the case. When you get right down to it, the former case is most often the truth when it comes to those Robotech stories created on Tommy Yune's watch, while the latter case is almost invariably the case with the Robotech properties released under Carl Macek. The work done under Carl Macek was done quickly and inexpertly, and thus was shot through with so many screw-ups that there were more plot holes than plot points. Tommy came along years later and made his valiant (doomed) effort to spackle over some of the more egregious plot holes by blaming a fair amount of it on inept or outright treasonous leaders (particularly Leonard), or simple naivete on the part of certain characters. When you get right down to it, it's the difference between simply being a lousy writer (of fan-fiction) and being generally inept. Now that's exceedingly generous... what makes you assume there was ever a "quality idea factory" there to begin with? I doubt it's coincidental that the quality of new Robotech material took a nosedive from "poor" to "criminally bad" right around the time that Carl Macek and company started trying to write their own original material. He broke the code! He broke the code! We can only hope.

Bah! As easy as it was to talk you into watching an appalling mess like Robotech, they could get you to watch anything.