Seto Kaiba
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By sheer bloody coincidence, you picked the two Macross shows where FAST packs have the least screen time... the FAST packs were a mid-war introduction during the original series, and in Plus the VF-11 is low-key and most of the OVA is non-combat. Well, after Ep27 of the original series, FAST packs were pretty much the rule for space operations with the VF-1... and DYRL maintained that. Macross II almost never showed the VF-2SS without its FAST packs (pretty much just the eyecatch and one scene). Macross Plus doesn't have a single actual combat scene that didn't involve FAST packs, even for the Ghost. Macross 7 made FAST packs the rule for the VF-11, and prominently featured packs for the VF-17 and VF-19 in Operation Stargazer. Macross Zero made quite a meal out of the ersatz FAST packs on the VF-0 in its final episodes. FAST packs were standard hardware for the VF-25 in the Macross Frontier TV series, and the movies upped the game by including some for the VF-27 and YF-29. It's actually less common for a VF to NOT have at least one known model of FAST pack displayed prominently at one point or other... There's no drag in space, my friend... using FAST packs in atmosphere is a bit problematic (which is why the ones in Macross 7 are as streamlined as they could be made to be, and why the ones in Plus are minimalist), but in space there is absolutely no impediment to covering your plane in huge armored boosters with eleventy billion missile launchers, verniers, and massive fuel tanks. Most of the time, the extra armament, verniers, and fuel of the FAST packs are actually an asset to space combat... the only case I know of where it's said that using FAST packs actually degrades performance is the VF-25, and that's just because its thrust-to-weight ratio (and therefore acceleration) without them is so completely redonkulous. (Even then, they compensate for it by covering more of the airframe and adding armor to key areas.)
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's not so much "seem to support" as "make a meal out of explicitly showing". Boosters are just one aspect of FAST packs though... the YF-19 and YF-21 packs don't contain booster systems, but they're still adding fuel and weapons. The VF-19 FAST pack actually went right back to having boosters. The VF-2SS Valkyrie II's Super Armed Pack also counts, since it adds weapons, fuel, and a bunch of verniers, but contains no additional boosters or engines. That's definitely at odds with what's in the show and print materials... the FAST pack boosters are there to get you to (and from) the combat zone and extend the sortie range in space. They're shown to be perfectly capable of maneuvering with the boosters on the FAST packs running, though getting the most out of it seems to take a lot of skill (e.g. Alto's remarks about Ozma flinging around an Armored VF-25 in a fashion that gave even Alto pause). Different rules of engagement... high mobility is the name of the game, much more so than the real world (where stealth and long-range weapons are king). When every missile is fire-and-forget with multiple guidance systems and uncanny agility, and tracking a target for lock-on is as simple as looking at it, you can have your cake and eat it too when it comes to lining up a good shot AND moving quickly.
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's probably not a sound assumption to make... pretty much every Macross show has shown that FAST packs are no impediment to the frankly insane mobility most VFs enjoy. The connection points might not look all that weighty and robust, but it's worth remembering that they're made out of the same Tonka-tough material that the VFs themselves are, and they're DESIGNED to be taken into dogfights. Take the VF-1's FAST packs as an example. Those connection points look awful insubstantial, but they're designed to hold on a pair of rocket motors fully 19 times as powerful as the VF-1's engines. Those things aren't going ANYWHERE without being deliberately detached.
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It sounds a little silly, but Macross Plus did show it can work... Isamu's YF-19 No.2 is shown lifting the leg pack with its micro-missiles to expose the door for the internal bay in the leg and its CHM-2 interception missiles.
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That might not necessarily apply to the UN Forces in Macross though... VFs seem to be pretty low-maintenance as aircraft go, and fuel is dirt cheap. They also have distressingly good simulators (seen in Macross 2036, Macross 7, and Macross Frontier) that are able to replicate pretty realistic flight conditions including actual combat. I'm not so sure... the VF-4 has a rather unusual profile and several capabilities that aren't present on many of the later VFs that you listed. What we see of pilot training in Macross 2036, Macross 7 PLUS, and Macross Frontier, combined with what's mentioned in profiles from Macross VF-X2 would suggest that the VF pilot training program is normally 36 months from entry to assignment, and that the overall trajectory of training is: Basic & Fitness -> Simulator training (flight and combat) -> Practical flight training -> Active duty Gamlin made it through that program in 2 years, and problem child Aegis Focker took 4. The basic training they go through looks like a pretty typical stamina and fitness program with some fundamental marksmanship training worked in (pistols and rifles). Then it's simulator training, apparently on the model of craft that's the standard in the role they'll be filling (for Gamlin it was a VF-11), and then after that onto guided training with an instructor... either flying solo under an instructor or in a tandem craft... before going on to their assignment.
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Certainly containable... you might find it interesting/enlightening/helpful to read about the VF-11 Thunderbolt Interceptor over on the Macross Compendium wiki. The internal weapons bays are a thing on two VF-11 models (the MAXL and -C type, the latter being a screwup in the animation that got canonized post-facto), and so too is sticking more powerful engines into the VF-11 (the FF-2099A engines used by the VF-16 seem to be particularly popular for this purpose, and offer 45% greater output than the VF-11's standard FF-2025G's). That's about the only part I don't think is really workable... the in-universe evidence for the viability of up-scaling a VF suggests that it's unwise, and prone to introduce mechanical problems (such as on the VF-3000, an upscaled VF-1, which suffered issues with its joints slipping). The VF-14 Vampire is big, yes... but a larger airframe is advantageous for a space fighter. It offers more room for fuel, for a larger and more powerful engine (roughly 85% greater output than the VF-11's), for internal weapons storage, and for upgrades or other optional equipment. It might've lost the Project Nova competition to the VF-11, but it enjoyed a fair bit of popularity... the 13th Long Distance Emigrant Fleet used them as their main variable fighter, and it's also said to have been extremely popular with the survey and emigrant fleets throughout the 2030s and 2040s. Size-wise, the VF-11 is actually quite small for a variable fighter... the VF-14's size is more typical, of postwar VFs in general and AVFs in particular. Considering the Protodeviln wanted to take prisoners... yeah, it IS exactly who you want to own a 240 gigaton bomb, because you know they'll never USE it.
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Yep... if it helps, it's said that the miniaturized GIC used in reaction engines and weapons is using the physics of super dimension space (specifically the super-dense matter therein) to provide the effect. The principles involved aren't that different from how a super dimension energy cannon works. The missile it's attached to... is a 24 warhead anti-fleet reaction missile used on the command battle-carrier that was constructed to protect the Varauta system (and subsequently ended up in the Protodeviln's hands). Eh... Kawamori said that about the shows. The Master File books themselves, on which Kawamori consulted, actually outright state they're not part of/reflective of the official Macross setting on their credits/acknowledgements page at the back of each volume. The books have had some details incorporated into unambiguously official setting material like Macross Chronicle though, but it's kinda hit-and-miss.
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Live Long and prosper Mr. Spock RIP
Seto Kaiba replied to 505thAirborne's topic in Anime or Science Fiction
We had a moment of silence for Mr. Nimoy here at the lab... sci-fi has lost a great man today. -
Pretty much... instead of burning refined hydrocarbons to provide the "bang", they're flash-heating the air by exposing it to heat from a tiny sustained thermonuclear reaction. Overtechnology materials are some pretty tough stuff... though Master File takes rhapsodizing about it to the ludicrous extreme of even talking about how it influenced threaded fastener design. (Yes, overtechnology SCREWS... I had a hard time taking that one seriously.) The old Sky Angels book asserts that the VF-1's skin/armor was equivalent to 100x its thickness in RHA, and that stuff handily stood up to reentry temperatures even while damaged. Per Master File, they're using a miniature gravity inertia control system to catalyze and control the thermonuclear reaction inside the engine's reactor... crushing the reactant past the fusion point with extradimensional forces. Terrifying would be a better word for it... as Macross Chronicle describes it, thermonuclear reaction warheads work on pretty much the exact same set of principles. They're hydrogen bombs where the fission trigger has been replaced by the miniaturized GIC, so they no longer contain radioactive material and thus don't produce any long-term radioactive effects in the target area. (Never mind that it also seems to have made it easier to scale the warheads... the highest-yield one mentioned in Chronicle was a whopping 10 gigatons.)
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Ironic, then, that its original name (and in-universe nickname) is "Siren"...
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That'd be kind of wasteful and needlessly complex, wouldn't it? You'd need separate tanks for reactant and propellant, and in space you'd need to expend energy from the power system to convert the propellant into a plasma for the MHD plasma ion engine system to accelerate. In atmospheric flight, you wouldn't be able to generate much thrust using a purely electrically-driven turbine without any heating of intake air... it'd just be an elaborate and inefficient propeller. The approach diagrammed and discussed in the technical manuals like Sky Angels and Master File is a fairly efficient way to go about it. You only need tanks to carry reactant (slush hydrogen), because the reaction provides power to run the MHD engine AND an on-demand plasma stream for the MHD engine to use for propellant. Having the reactor right there inside the engine also makes transferring heat from the reaction to intake air a convenient way to cool the reactor and provide functionality like a conventional jet engine without having to worry about combustion efficiency and with minimal fuel consumption. (That's how VFs pull off the "nearly unlimited" flight ranges in atmospheric service.)
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Nothing like a technological jumpstart of a few thousand years, eh? Mind you, that's not to say that VFs were entirely reliable in their formative years, or even now. Macross's creators like to throw those little touches of realism in here and there with various issues in design and operation... like how the VF-19 got pulled from widespread deployment because of loss-of-control issues, the initial burst turbine designs in the YF/VF-19 and -21/22 having serious overheating problems in atmospheric flight, the joint slippage issues that occurred on the VF-3000 when they tried to scale up the VF-1 design, or, my favorite, the dedicated space fighter VF-X3 from their early non-canon games that turned out to be an uncontrollable mess because its kitbashed avionics package wasn't up to the job... The cutaways in various books like Master File always show them as being something not too dissimilar from a normal axial-flow turbofan engine... albeit one with a rather small compressor stage, because of the separate superconducting compressor on the other side of the ducted knee joint. The thermonuclear reaction power system is presented as a largely self-contained module situated around the turbine shaft, and either directly behind or partly inside the compressor stage, where it can transfer heat (and/or plasma) to the high-pressure air in what would normally be a turbine's combustion chamber.
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VF-2SS Valkyrie II... ... ... ... ... which surprises nobody.
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I'm not... mainly because the default location for the engines, to facilitate transformation, has always been the legs. The VF-22 did something different, but the design got a fair bit more complicated as a result. I'd imagine redundancy in the power system is also a factor. On a single-engine VF, if the engine is damaged and the reaction power system has to shut down, you're strapped to the inside of a statue. On a twin engine VF, you've got a second engine to maintain operating power so you can limp away (literally or figuratively). In the air, losing the engine on a single-engine fighter doesn't prevent you from at least having a good ol' college try at making a getaway... but on the ground, in a robot, the sudden loss of motive power means you're a sitting duck. Technically we've also seen a six-engine VF... if we count the VF-4's rocket boosters. It had a pair of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, a pair of ramjet engines in the wings, and then the two rocket boosters in the engine nacelles. We don't know exactly what method they're using, but they're using a heat-exchange process to divert heat from the reaction to the interior of the engine. For space flight, the way the engines operate is described almost exactly like Star Trek's impulse engines... using plasma siphoned off the reaction as propellant in an ion engine powered by that same reaction. Slush hydrogen is described as being the VF fuel of choice in the Master File books... though the canon definition of thermonuclear reaction suggests that VF engines are actually multifuel-capable and can run on fuels that would not normally be considered fuel to run an ersatz-fusion reactor. (Which might also account for differences in exhaust color throughout Macross... different fuels being used in the engines produces different-colored exhaust because of the elements in the plasma.)
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We actually know what occupies most of those slots from various descriptions scattered in art books and so on... it's about a 50-50 split between prototypes and low-profile or economized production models. There are a few numbers that aren't assigned, but most of the "gaps" are filled by: VF-X-2, which was a rival prototype to the VF-1 that adopted more overtechnology, but was passed over for production. VF-X-3, rival prototype to the VF-X-4 which was lost in the Zentradi's orbital bombardment, with nothing remaining except a picture and one part that had been contracted out to a plant in space. VF-5, a production model light VF for space warfare built from 2015 to 2023 and used on some of the Megaroad emigrant missions, notably has sea landing capability. VF-6, a production model light VF for planetary defense designed to be inexpensive to produce. VF-7, same general profile as VF-6. VF-X-10, a prototype for what became the VF-9 Cutlass. Originally from Kawamori's Advanced Valkyrie design series, adopted into the Macross 'verse in Macross Chronicle. VF-15, a production(?) model VF which was the first design to incorporate a biological anti-g boost system. VF-16, a production(?) model VF, the engines of which were appropriated for the VF-11MAXL and Thunderbolt Interceptor. YF-26, a Project Triangler prototype (VFMF) developed by Macross Olympia, and subsequently rejected in favor of the VF-25. That leaves only 8, 10, 12, 13, 18, 20, 23, and 28 as "empty" numbers in the fighter sequence... and I'd wager 8, 12, and 13 were assigned to prototypes from around the Project Nova period, when it seems like Shinsei and General Galaxy were releasing a new fighter every few years. 18 was probably reserved for a rival design to the VF-17 (or perhaps the complimentary fighter that the SW-XA1 non-canon-ly was). 20 was probably reserved for a further refinement of the YF-19 if development required it. 28 was probably another fleet's YF-24 derivative. That just leaves 23 hanging out there without an explanation or a probable explanation... stuck between the first and second generations of AVFs. Yeah, he does seem to be modeling things on the 1962 tri-service designation system...
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Not as fuel, per se... a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses intake air as propellant (and coolant) in atmospheric flight. Instead of burning hydrocarbons, the reaction turbine engines use heat from the thermonuclear reaction power system to heat intake air and provide thrust. In space flight, the engines bleed off plasma from the reaction and use it as propellant in an ion engine system (which will seem awfully familiar if you're a Star Trek fan). Thus far, I believe all we've seen of the VF-16 is the usage of its engines in VF-11 variants... the VF-11MAXL, MAXL Custom, and Thunderbolt Interceptor supposedly all use VF-16 engines.
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The fighters with thermonuclear reaction burst-turbines and stage II thermonuclear reaction turbines on AVFs, VF-16, and VF-17D and later all seem to have no difficulty reaching orbit swiftly and efficiently. The dangling question is whether the VF-14's engines, which are normal thermonuclear reaction turbines almost as powerful as the VF-17D's FF-2100X burst turbines, are can achieve the same feat without eating their entire fuel supply. (Whether it's a raw thrust thing or an efficiency thing.) (If the Variable Fighter Master File series is any indication, fuel weight on a VF is actually close to negligible... the books assert reaction engines use hydrogen slush for fuel, which weighs roughly 85 grams per liter. Volume 2 of the VF-1 book asserts a VF-1 fuel volume of 1,410 liters, which comes out to a hair under 120kg, or about 264.5 pounds. Even with the massively expanded Super Pack tanks, the VF-1's still only carrying 455kg/1000lb or so of fuel.)
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Got a couple copies of that one kicking around, but I've never focused on whole-page scans... just selected art pieces. You won't find it there, friend... the few pages from that issue on that page are all concerned with the model kits. There's nothing there from the key article.
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We don't really know what the first VF to be capable of reaching satellite orbit unassisted was. The original VF-17[A,B,C] probably couldn't, since its engines are a LOT weaker than the FF-2100X engines that the VF-17D and later variants got... but there are other, earlier designs that also had AVF-level engine power. The VF-14 was only 750kg heavier than the VF-17D, and the VF-17D's engine thrust was greater by only about 5%, so it's not inconceivable that a VF-14 could've done it. We don't know what the VF-16 weighed, but it had engines with an output of over 400kN (at least 50% greater than a VF-11's), which were orbit-capable when installed in a specially-reinforced VF-11MAXL (Mylene's).
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Yes, the VF-19 and VF-22 were the first production AVFs. The VF-14 is a contemporary of the VF-11... it was the competing design that lost out to the VF-11 in the selection of the next main fighter. That didn't stop it from getting a fair bit of use, though. There's something that looks like a VF-14 visible in the background at New Edwards in Plus, and the Varauta system's UN Forces used the VF-14 as well... until the Protodeviln took over and it became the basis for the enemy fighters in Macross 7. It was HUGE compared to the VF-11, and it had engines that were on par with the AVF-level engines in the VF-17D. (IIRC, Max also flew one in Macross M3).
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Yeah, I honestly don't recall seeing any VF-1S's besides the Skull 001. Mostly -A's, a couple brownie -D's and -J's here and there... but none of the -S.
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Yeah, but for the period (in Macross history) it's appropriate enough... the Project Super Nova designs, the genesis of the Advanced Variable Fighter, were both trying to internalize their armaments as much as possible in the interests of stealth. Later advances in active stealth technology loosened the impact of external ordinance, but that didn't stop most of 'em from stacking on the internalized armaments. My concern, relative to airframe size, was more about getting the additional systems that are part of the AVF technological "tier" into the airframe and the more limited fuel capacity. Since most of the emigrant fleets would be principally concerned with space combat, operational endurance for patrols and combat would definitely be a high priority. Depends what fighter you're talking about there... without resorting to Super Packs, several of the larger AVFs can equal or exceed the carrying capacity of the VF-11 and similar small VFs when it comes to ordinance just using their internal bays. The VF-14 and VF-22 are both on that list... partly due to their relatively large size leaving room for significant amounts of ordinance to be jammed in there.
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Er... yes and no. We actually see both sides of the coin in Macross Plus. On Eden, the UN Forces at the New Edwards test flight center are shown testing the YF-21 against a dedicated, purpose-built target drone. Macross Chronicle literally identifies it ONLY as "target drone". Earth, on the other hand, is shown testing the Ghost X-9 against unmanned VF-11's (I vaguely recall reading somewhere that all those drones were the initial VF-11A type that had been produced in very limited numbers). I'd imagine the dedicated target drones are probably a lot cheaper, and therefore a lot easier to find, than drone-converted VFs (which are surprisingly rare in the setting). That its size is similar to the classic VF-1 is probably an argument against it being an entirely viable AVF upgrade candidate. It's said (in connection with the MAXL variant) that the VF-11 needed to have the airframe strengthened to take the additional thrust of new engines about 2/3 as powerful as what's on most AVFs, and being so darn small would make its armament rather lighter than what most AVFs carry. It wouldn't have nearly as much staying power or carrying capacity as your average AVF (and, IIRC, something about pinpoint barriers is said to screw with the VF-11's sensors on the Thunderbolt Interceptor). If one thing can usually be said for AVFs, it's that they're quite a bit bigger than the designs of the first space war and its aftermath. I'd think the logical choice would actually be the VF-14 Vampire. The airframe's stressed for about twice the engine power that the VF-11's was (in the same ballpark as the VF-17D), and it's said to have a LOT of free space inside the airframe that can be used for upgraded or optional hardware.
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Unless, of course, they've got a decent amount of foresight... one reason the VF-25 was built as an all-regime fight rather than space optimized like the VF-19F. Eh... that depends on what kind of orbit you're talking about. Even the VF-1 Valkyrie was able to at least the edge of space over an Earth-type world without resorting to cheats like an escape booster. Boosters are all about getting the fighters up into space quickly and efficiently without having to ferry them up on a ship. The VF-11 is the last fighter stated to need booster assistance to get into a satellite orbit, but exactly which fighter was first to be capable of doing it unassisted is a great big unanswered question. Most fighters seem to have the capability from thermonuclear reaction burst-turbine engines like those of the AVFs, VF-16, and VF-17 variants starting with the VF-17D. The VF-14 may have possessed the capability as well, considering its engines are almost as powerful as the VF-17D's and their thrust-to-weight ratios aren't that far off. Pretty much every VF in the Macross Frontier-era seems to be orbit-capable, and the VF-171's initial type DOES have a similar engine to the VF-17.
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When distances of a few hundred light years are apparently no more troubling than an international flight is today, odds are that the economy isn't THAT unfamiliar. From what Kawamori has said in interviews, many of the emigrant fleets and worlds are producing their own currency and are more or less self-sufficient economies, internally. "Cultural" exports like music and other media happen over the Galaxy Network (a fold communications analogue to the modern internet), and goods are shipped to and fro by interstellar shipping concerns like Tachyon Express and Birla Transport Co. Ltd. After all, we're told point-blank that Strategic Military Services (SMS) was started by Richard Birla to protect his interstellar shipping business... and Luca rather bluntly tells Leon Mishima that he thinks the reason Birla is fascinated by the Vajra is because he plans to use fold quartz in his shipping business, and gain a virtual monopoly on interstellar shipping with a fleet of ships which can travel through fold faults. That wasn't actually his ulterior motive, but his interstellar shipping business was what gave him the riches that let him bankroll his private army (SMS) and the Frontier fleet. Each emigrant ship is supposedly a unique city-state in space... with its own layout, architecture, and so on. They're built off of the same basic design, but many of the ones we've seen have had their own distinctive touches added to the design, both in terms of architecture and technology. Macross-5 had Zentradi aesthetics and tech everywhere, for instance, while Macross-11 seemed to have a lot more highrise buildings and those massive heat fins on the side of the main dome. As far as the types of emigrant fleet... there's not really a "medium" there. We know, from Kawamori's interviews and some print sources, that there were 100 or so short-range emigrant fleets that used Zentradi and other ships to locate and settle worlds that were discovered within a couple hundred light years of Earth. The long-distance emigrant fleets were on a much larger scale, for exploration thousands of light years from Earth... those are the fleets we actually see, built around Megaroad and New Macross-class ships with millions of civilians. Whether the fleets know where they're going... that's something for the advance scouts to sort out, which is what the SDFN-type mass-production Macross-class ships were originally for, though later fleets used frigates and other ships. They don't know the destination they'll one day reach, but they at least know what's ahead of them so they aren't sailing blind.