Seto Kaiba

There'll be more where that came from, I found a few more fun tidbits while I was looking up the citations for you. I really do need to sit down and spend a weekend itemizing everything in all these books... seems like I spend more time looking for the right book than finding what I need in said book. I wanna know how much power the VF-0 was getting out of those conventional turbines... that'd be the real measure of how energy-intensive some of the basic OTM used in VFs really is.

It's not on M3 yet, I don't have much time to edit the Compendium, and IIRC Macross II isn't really within what sketchley normally covers... in Yoshino's absence, I'm pretty much the only one digging deep into the old Macross II publications. That's not exactly true, man... I know we've discussed this before. They don't cite an exact figure for the VF-2SS, but they do say it has three times the generator output of a VF-1 Valkyrie. It's even one of the few technical tidbits from the OVA that reached the west in English courtesy of Mikimoto's Macross II promo interview in Animerica. (That's 3,900MW if you take the base VF-1 spec from the 90's on, or 10,200MW if you take the Sky Angels view that the 650MW of output on the VF-1 was nominal output and peak output was 1,700MW per engine1. The number should theoretically apply to the VF-XX, and possibly the Metal Siren as well, but not the VF-2JA due to the circumstances of its production.) Considering how the engines function in space, there is actually some logical basis for assuming something like a linear trajectory in power-vs-performance... but as nothing is said about MHD efficiency on later craft, it's impossible to work backwards to a minimum-necessary generator output without assumptions2. (This is one area where Chiba really shines... the VF-1's generator outputs actually are in the right range to produce the amount of thrust necessary to meet the design spec for engine output in space via the MHD. Instead of pulling a random number out of their butts, someone actually sat down and did the math to figure out what the generator requirements would be to plausibly create the amount of thrust in the stats. The efficiency is higher than the real world equivalent, but not unreasonably so, and the math still works.) 1. Macross Journal Extra: VF-1 Valkyrie Special Edition pg.41, FF-2001 engine diagram on lower half. 2. Just ballparking it, you'd need about 4,300MW per engine to produce the thrust the FF-3001 puts out in a "best case" condition... less if the efficiency has improved from the VF-1. The worst case is more like 32,400MW, so you see why we need to know the efficiency to get anywhere near a valid output.

It sounds impressive up to the point where you realize that 86% is 440KW, which is peanuts by Macross's standards. That's 0.067% the output of a first-generation thermonuclear reaction turbine engine. Yes, but we can say with reasonable confidence that they're at least as good as the VF-1's engines. How much better they are depends on if generator output scales linearly with engine thrust the way it does in the Macross II mecha stats. To be frank, there's not really a lot of tactical advantage to destroids after the First Space War. They're cheaper than a VF, sure, but they don't really have any practical offensive application in space combat because they're not flight-capable... and, for most ships, what they offer in terms of defensive ability can be achieved a lot cheaper via beam CIWS and AA missile launcher systems. They've got a bit of a potential niche in supplementing the air defenses of the largest emigrant ships, but otherwise they don't really have much to offer. Now that one is easier to guess at... presumably, the EW ordinance container would contain incorporate a fold-wave radar and the other sensors common to most AEW, ELINT, and reconnaissance VFs of the period (UHF and VHF antennae, LIDAR and various other sensors). Some of the older VF's have been known to carry FOTD systems for missile evasion... but other than that, nothing is really coming to mind. The scarcity of fold quartz is a matter that's going to affect all 5th Generation VF's (YF-24 and all derivatives thereof) because they use fold quartz in the ISC and other systems... but then again, humanity has at least one or two planets in its possession which are relatively rich in the stuff, and it's only a problem until humanity figures out how to artificially recreate the process the Vajra queens use to refine fold quartz.

That'd be an opinion unsupported by fact, but in the absence of any further explanation from Macross's creators it's as valid as any other unsubstantiated theory. All thermonuclear reaction turbine engines use intake air as a coolant and propellant while operating in atmosphere... that's literally how they produce thrust. Instead of burning hydrocarbons to heat intake air, they dissipate heat from the reaction into intake air in the space behind the high-pressure compressor stage. The VF-19 engine designations are somewhat messy and convoluted at present due to a typographical error in Macross Chronicle that was copied by Master File. When they started messing around with engine model numbers, they accidentally messed up their engine thrust numbers for the VF-19F/S type and produced a logical impossibility (as noted on M3). As a result, there's a fair bit of confusion and contradiction as to which models of VF-19 use which engine, in which I generally recommend citing the more recent set of model numbers but retaining the original thrust values for the F and S variants, which neatly solves the problem. Once the more egregious conflicts are tidied away, it appears that the FF-2500 series engines were only used on the prototype... with the 1st mass-production type going back to the less overkill FF-2200 and the 2nd mass-production type going to more stable FF-2550 series engines. The overheating problem may simply have been resolved by material improvements or design changes in later models of engine, and/or changes to the airframe itself. About a 25% improvement in output, which is pretty small compared to some of the jumps the VFs have seen in output. They're not exactly staging a comeback... I apologize in advance for the problems caused by clumsy phraseology over there on the Compendium. In practice, the destroids might not be completely extinct... but they're clinging to existence by the fingertips most of them don't have. You'll have no doubt noted these are not "new" destroid models, but rather refurbished versions of decades-old models used locally by one fleet or other... and that they're the only (sarcastic fingerquotes "new") models to appear after the First Space War. They're not all that common either, if Macross Chronicle is any indication. The Mechanic Sheet discussing the Vanquish-related vehicles of 2058 doesn't mention any other users for the Super Defender besides its developer, Macross Galaxy. The Cheyenne II's mechanic sheet seems to be leaning the same way, discussing only that the Macross Frontier fleet has them principally because they wanted something that could operate inside the domes easily (without messing up the pavement), and that they often aren't even manned. Very likely, yes... there is precedent for civilian-level destroid-type vehicles being able to operate military-grade weaponry, such as the City-7 police mecha in Macross 7 being equipped with spare VF-11 gun pods, and the ground-based counterparts using heavy bazookas that look oddly like the RX-78-2's. They don't explain what "auxiliary propulsion units" means. I'd guess that it means a booster rocket or possibly fuel tank. They have fold boosters for fold travel, and the models available in the 2050's are already reusable.

Man, there's no pleasing some people... I guess the Konig Monster with the gatling cannons is more like a Guntank run amok.

Debatable... it was relevant, and served to clear up various misconceptions some folks had about the (over)technology under discussion. More or less, yeah... the YF-19's trial gun pack from early in Macross Plus had some shades of that too, with the big honking beam gun on its forearm. You could argue the Konig Monster variant that showed up in the teaser for Macross Frontier's second movie is the final realization of the idea, what with it having a pair of massive rotary cannons for arms in addition to everything else it already had.

The energy sustaining the fusion reaction inside a thermonuclear reaction turbine isn't the heat and pressure of the reaction itself... it's the gravitational pressure of the heavy quantum manipulated by the engine's gravity inertia control (GIC) system. In space, the VFs are using the plasma stream from the reaction as propellant, supported by a MHD plasma ion thruster in the rear of the turbine body. (In principle, it's not dissimilar from a Star Trek impulse engine.)

Aaaaaaactually... there's an explanation for that in the Macross 30 novelization. You see, one of the ways the New UN Government regulates the development of military potential among its member "states" is that the various local governments are required to disclose the specifications of new mobile weapons and other military technologies that they develop for production to the "federal" government and military. Some proprietary information can be withheld at times, like the YF-24 spec that was shared with the emigrant fleets, but developing a new fighter or other weapon completely in secret is a violation of interstellar law. Classifying the newly-developed Chronos as a pre-production prototype effectively allowed S.M.S.'s Uroboros branch office to put off having to make full disclosure of the new fighter's specs and technological advances to the government and military for a while. The Macross Galaxy fleet pulled off a more complicated version of the same "cheat" by not only failing to disclose that a completed VF-27 had entered production, but also by trotting out a couple under-strength prototypes like the YF-27-5 for the public to gawp at for the purpose of spreading misinformation about the VF-27's level of capability. (Though it would appear that, after the Galaxy fleet's role in the Vajra conflict became known, General Galaxy may have been forced to cough up the VF-27 spec... since at least one production model VF-27 is known to be operated outside the Macross Galaxy fleet by the Uroboros Hunter's Guild.) Perhaps one day, but not now.

Yep, and I'm one. Thanks to M3's insatiable appetite for art books, I've got three copies of the game... two limited editions, and one regular. Still can't get the bleeping YF-21 FAST packs tho. I suck at the Vanquish races. While I do understand the aversion to "wild mass hypothesizing" (esp. after the whole Shaloom thing), the whole thread is about a "what if" scenario, so a certain amount of conjecture is probably OK, s'long as it fits with the documented facts. ... ... ... Part of me wants to dispute this, but the "padded trash can" is a documented piece of VF equipment from the original series. Max and Milia were such responsible parents... Strictly speaking, it's "with enough heat and pressure" anything will fuse. Mass is not necessarily a part of the equation, though it IS on OTM thermonuclear reaction power systems because the reaction there is catalyzed/moderated by trapped heavy quanta* in the engine's gravity controller. * A form of exotic matter from super dimension space (fold space) which has almost inconceivable mass... so much so that, in sufficient quantities, it will auto-ignite in a fusion reaction when pulled into our universe. Heavy quantum is most commonly used for gravity manipulation, including stand-alone gravity control systems and the GIC systems that moderate and control thermonuclear reaction systems. It's also used as the detonation trigger in thermonuclear reaction warheads, the warhead material itself in dimension eaters, and in dimension energy weapons, which direct beams or bolts of heavy quantum fusion plasma (or possibly heavy quantum itself, in more recent cases). You could make a cogent argument that, even though being a technology demonstrator was not the YF-30's primary purpose, it did serve as one in a secondary capacity for the ordinance container system that Aisha was so proud of. She sure as hell seems to be of the opinion that it's the future of modularized VF weaponry.

There are a lot of... unusual... variants in the VF-19 Master File. The "VIP-calibur" is actually one of the less insane ones. For most purposes, a VF is perfectly adept at doing that... as seen in Macross Frontier, Macross 7, etc.. By the 2040's, the destroids were largely antiques and the only thing similar belonged to the civilian authorities. In their defense, very few of us on this site have a working grasp of Japanese or the patience to wade through something as appallingly unintelligible as the engrish spat out by Babelfish or Google Translate. (It probably doesn't help that Macross Chronicle's YF-30 mechanic sheet doesn't actually talk about the reason for the YF-30 being made... only about its design.)

There are tandem cockpit variants of the VF-19, and Master File also has a transport version of the VF-19 with no battroid mode that seats like six people. It should also be possible to fit a jump seat to the VF-19 1st mass production type. Based on the line art and VF-22 Master File, it doesn't appear that there's enough room to fit a duffel bag behind the pilot's seat... let alone a human. The YF-30's cockpit is pretty much identical to that of the other 5th Generation VFs, so it's a pretty safe bet that it has the same covered jump seat arrangement that the VF-25 had.

Panapp, Pocky, and did the third one have a name?

A stage musical.

Well... mobility is king on the battlefields of Macross... that's why the destroids tend to get mulched by anything with the mobility of a VF. That, plus the cheaper alternative of building stationary gun emplacements on a ship's hull, are why destroids kind of saw their tactical relevance wane after the first space war. A little from Otona Anime #9, a little from Macross Chronicle, Macross VF-X2, etc. Mariafokina Barnrose was the one behind the watchdog agency, having been the orchestrating authority behind opposition to Latence prior to 2051. The Barnrose Authority gets a nod in the Macross Frontier novelization too. There are other potential explanations... like cooking off the fuel tanks, etc.

Haven't seen the show, but she certainly is cute if nothing else...

That's a character from Macross the Musiculture, right? Roli's granddaughter?

There's no mention of any kind of performance limitation on the VF-22HG's engines... virtually all VF's from Macross Plus onward have had their engine thrust cited as "maximum instantaneous thrust in space". My point is that there's no mention of the cooling limitations the FF-2450B had in the craft that use the FF-2450C... you jumped to a conclusion based on a false premise.

The difference here being that the emigrant fleets and planets are perfectly at liberty to build a VF-19 or VF-22... but with limiters on the performance of various components. That's not actually true through. When the emigrant fleets were launched, they were equipped with the fighters that were available in large numbers, and suited to their intended purpose. They didn't necessarily get the latest and greatest, or even the same fighter the UN Forces were using as their main fighter. Look to the descriptions of the fighters developed by Stonewell/Bellcom (later Shinsei) and General Galaxy with the emerging emigrant planet market in mind, and what do we see? They're pushing cost performance, not flight performance. In all the fighters produced specifically for the emigrant market, we see the recurring theme of low cost. They went in for fighters that could be bought or built cheaply, and maintained in fighting condition with the limited support infrastructure an early emigrant fleet's ships (or a recently settled planet) could provide. Shinsei and General Galaxy's first big sellers as rivals were both low-cost, lightly armed fighters for planetary defense... the VF-5000 and VF-9, respectively. They might've had some of the high performance main fighters of the era, but most leavened that with more cost-effective fighters like the VF-1, VF-5, or VF-5000. Later on, some opted for more specialized craft whose performance wasn't necessarily better in all respects, over the military's main fighter. The Varauta system, for instance, opted for the VF-14 Vampire instead of the VF-11. After the 2040's, some fleets did away with VF's altogether and used Ghosts exclusively. Others stuck with later, economized designs like the VF-171 over more expensive, less accessible designs like the VF-19 or VF-22. The only planet that seems to have gone consistently for "the best" instead of "the most cost-effective" is Earth. All told, the usage of destroids is somewhat unusual... most destroids were retired and sold off as construction equipment, or found their way to less dignified positions as target practice. Drones and cost-leader VF's like the Nightmare Plus were the rule. Frontier used the AIF-7S/QF-4000 and VF-171 jointly as their main fighters. Considering the debacle the VF-19 and VF-22 turned into, most of the emigrant worlds and fleets were probably chucking a little at the folly of the core forces, splurging on Shinsei and General Galaxy's unstable superstars before bowing to the inevitable with the Nightmare Plus. As far as the UN Forces' potentially running away with itself, that's why after Latence's attempted coup, the government instituted a new watchdog agency to prevent exactly that... and then reorganized the military anyway to put it on a shorter leash. It's not said that it's an overheating issue... or that, if it is, it's internal to the engine rather than the fighter-side coolant loop servicing the engine.

Yeah, they never really bothered to go into detail as to why the VF-9E developed the irksome habit of spontaneous detonation... but one can hardly fault General Galaxy for backing away from it as swiftly as its test pilots probably did after the first one blew up. The description in Macross the Ride indicates that controlling it during flight was a monumental challenge, and that their tendency to explode mid-flight was repeatable in practice rather than theoretical. (The VF-9E's issues are apparently what ended General Galaxy's upgrade plans for the VF-9, as Ride notes it's the final variant.) The only schmuck brave or suicidal enough to own/fly one that we've been introduced to is a cyborg from Eden with a fiber optic-enhanced nervous system that boosts his response speed... 'course, the YF-19 wasn't much better, considering it put two of its test pilots in the ground and two more in the ICU before Shinsei found someone capable of handling it.

Actually, didn't we touch on this one earlier in this thread? That's a thing that someone actually tried, in-series. General Galaxy toyed with the idea of improving the VF-9 Cutlass with a modestly detuned variant of the same engine used in the VF-22 (the FF-2450C, rated at 620kN, vs. the 640kN B variant). The resulting airframe, designated VF-9E, is noted as having had a disquieting tendency to explode in midair, which led to the project's cancellation. The VF-9E first appeared in Macross the Ride, as the personal craft of Vanquish racer Nicolas Berthier.

... is it bad that I not only found this scenario completely plausible, but that I read it in their voices?

Well, to be fair, said homeless rock star got it because the UN Forces wanted/needed a mook to handle field testing of Project M hardware, and he fit the bill for being both a dedicated musician who really believed in the Minmay Attack and being too thick or too self-obsessed to realize he was the guinea pig for a military black project. It would've been a neat idea, tho that didn't stop the military from carrying out its own evaluation of the VF-19F/S before they moved to adopt them for Emerald Force. When the military and civilian leaders exhibit a level of ass-kicking commensurate to their authority, why the hell not?

Not a complete list by any means... but the female pilots are definitely out there. I figured she kinda went without saying...

Dunno... though I'm sure there's probably some cultural context lurking there, but they seem to show up a lot more in Macross's side stories... and in a few cases as main characters. I suppose it might be a little hard to write romance from the male perspective when one or more of the women involved is perfectly capable of kicking the male lead's ass, though that didn't stop Macross II's creators from giving us an entire platoon of elite female pilots. Mikimoto seems to be on board with the idea of women in the cockpit tho... he gave us Sylvie and Faerie platoon in II, Komilia in 2036, Misty Klaus and Letlade Elendil in Eternal Love Song, Mahara Fabrio in Macross 7 Trash, and that SV-51 pilot in Macross the First. Mikimoto's work aside, there was Nora Polyansky in Macross Zero, Mylene in Macross 7, Canaria and briefly Klan Klan in Macross Frontier, that Captain Ariela in one of the Macross Frontier manga, Chelsea Scarlett, Angers 672, and Maris Stella in Macross the Ride, Mariafokina Barnrose and Suzie Newlet in Macross VF-X2, and Macross 30 had three... Aisha Blanchett, Mina Forte, and Mei Riron. (It's about 50-50 between those who are part-Meltran and those who are full human in the ones I listed, and I'm sure I missed a few.) EDIT: The Variable Fighter Master File books and Episode Archive also make reference to a number of female test pilots.

My dad's more of a Dr. Gadget M. Chiba... so... The first time I watched Macross 7, it was like ten or eleven years ago. I had only the most rudimentary grasp of Japanese, and I was watching the fansub with those dreadful initial [Central Anime] subs on it. You know, the ones that mistranslated "Planet Dance" as "Parry Stands" for about the first fifteen episodes. Its emphasis on Basara, who I read as basically being Kaifun + Minmay - any redeeming traits either of them might've had put me off the show entirely. Years later, armed with a much better grasp of Japanese, I revisited Macross 7 without the need for fansubs and found it to be a much more engaging show... though Basara's severely autistic behavior was still off-putting. Since there was no official resolution to that love triangle, I unapologetically 'ship Mylene-Gamlin, because damn if the poor guy didn't freaking EARN his happy ending. He's probably the character I feel the worst for... he spends all that time and effort trying to get Mylene to like him, and she's hung up on a pillock who has a hard time differentiating his bandmates from the furnature.