kalvasflam

I'm still rooting for the chairman. From his view, some evil little bitch has stolen a ZAFT shuttle, and her accomplice did attacked a ZAFT base creating casaulties (to be included later). ZAFT must therefore hunt down the imposter Lacus (after all, if he can create an imposter, why can't anyone else, in fact, since he hasn't heard from the real Lacus for so long, how does he know she is still alive even? In fact, the one on that Orb beach house was rumored to be a fake in the first place, hence the order to assassinate.) Heh heh, ok, enough twisted logic

Azrael, That image on the bottom of your last post just seem so... not sure if it's right or wrong.... I didn't know GSD had turned Hentai....

You forgot the best line of the night. Jack: "oh, here is something for the pain." BAM, right in the noggin.

Graham, can you let us know about what it's like on the inside? I'm all for new Macross art.

It you guys notice the Pages that made up the Play Book were Laminated it wouldnt have gone up in smoke all that easily maybe the Control board would have been smashed but thats neither here nor there. You know, I have to wonder if the football would contain a anti-tamper self destruct. It would seem logical given its utter importance. Punch in the code wrong twice, and big KABOOM. That would've been hilarious. Jack would've told camper to try the code again and again, and KABOOM. They die, no codes, and Imhotep goes home mad. But then, that would be too obvious, and Imhotep would've had to move onto plan 7 or 8 of the day. As for Behrooz... who was that again? I see him taking on the role of Marie in season 2, all but forgotten probably until the very last episode.

Oh man, how the heck do I get a copy of this. I wonder if I can order it on Japan Amazon.com.

Sazabi will have Athrun as pilot... that's obvious. The good and bad thing about Seed is that they seem to stop doing their own unique MS at all. It's now all a rehash of UC series, but fortunately for them, they have a long list of MS they can rip off without ever coming up with another MS of their own. Probably saves Bandai money as they can just use their older modeling molds. heh heh

ewwww, don't say naked Starbucks, it's just wrong to want to see Dirk Benedict naked. Scary.... although if it was Sixes, just let me know how many times and how many ways humanity need to be betrayed.

yeah, but how hard would it be to digitally add in Jar Jar to the fight scene between Yoda and the Emperor. Both of them would pick up Jar Jar and throw him and the other guy... or, Jar Jar is sitting in one of those senate booth thingies as he is mercilessly thrown at the emperior by Yoda. Yoda thinks: "you dumbass prick alien, this is for getting Palpatine the frigging clone army in the first place... you froggy a-hole."

I wish Lucas could do a little fan service by putting in Jar Jar and then having either Vader or the Emperor choke him until stuff comes gushing out of his eyeballs. I bet you'd get a massive cheer if that were put on screens. Mes can't breathe, mes can't breath.... POP.

Did they change the name? I know it used to be called Joe's Shanghai a couple years back, and that's what my Zagat calls it. However, it has been a couple years.... it's only a name... it was in the right place, and the food was good. That's all I cared about. I didn't have a quality map of NYC, so stumbled around China town for 20 minutes looking for it. But the good food more than made up for the time I spent looking. Definitely recommend the place.

whoever suggested Joe's Shanghai place got the name wrong, it's joe's ginger, but he was dead on about the quality of the food. the dumplings are the best that I've tasted in the U.S. Definitely the place to go for quality Chinese food.

I think "Phoenix" was maybe just a call sign, since the aircraft was properly identified as an F-117 this episode. Stealing an F/A-22 from Edwards would have been more believable, but they probably didn't have the right stock footage to use. I know the call sign part... but it's just so sad, the Raptor would've been a better choice. Nighthawks were made for dropping bombs.... Heck, I would've settled for an F-15 used to escort the president. heh heh

as much as I like to say that anything is possible. This is a bit too much... F-117 could've done better dropping bombs on the playboy mansion. At least that would've pissed off every ordinary American. Now, had Phoenix been a test version of the F-22, or even the YF-23, then I'd have believed it, and gave this episode props for being original.

Oooh, very nice, it's obvious she isn't a natural... ha ha.

Transformable MS almost never reach mass production due to the costs of the extra mechanisms required for the transformation. Both manufacturing it, and supplying maintenance to it. Orb, however, has a mass-produced transforming mobilesuit in addition to its Astray units. This suggests that they have superior manufacturing facilities that allow for the manufacture of transforming MS without excessive rises in costs per unit. Faita, thanks for putting things in such a nice form. You are looking at it from a point of view of practical usage versus functionality. Kind of like having an expensive multirole aircraft capable of bombing and dogfights vs cheaper airplanes designed either specifically for dogfights or for bombing. Phoenix, in addition to that concept, the issue is also a matter of economics. Superior manufacturing and maintanence capability might in turn mean significantly more expensive and hence not easily mass produced. The problem is you have no idea the expense involved in producing a Murasame vs a Windam. As already pointed out, in terms of capabilities, a Windam is not too far different from a Murasame, slightly different roles, but similar capabilities. But if a Windam costs half as much to maintain and to service, then Orb's manufacturing ability is suddenly awfully pathetic. At best, you can say you don't know that Orb has superior manufacturing and you don't know the industrial capabilties of EA/PLANT. But you can't jump to the conclusion Orb has superior tech based on the fact they've mass produced Murasame. Keep in mind, they probably don't have the same number of Murasame as EA has Windams or ZAFT has Zakus.

We agree that it may be an asset, as in it doesn't hurt to have another ally. But, it's a different track you take depending on whether you get them through diplomacy (getting their assets without losing your own) or getting them through warfare. The objectives are different: If you want to have the asset by force, you plan the battle in a way to preserve the asset. It incurs losses on your assault force because you have to physically take and hold an objective. If you want to take it out, you can stand off bombard without encroachment and having to fight through all the defenses. i.e. reduce losses. If you want to put it in context. They could use nukes. That will wipe out Orb without any losses at all on the part of their conventional military. It's fundamentally contradictory objectives due to the potential losses in troops. What this means is you have to carefully quantify and analyze the risk vs reward options for launching a full scale invasion. The middle ground doesn't exist. You can't say, well, we'll try to take it by force, but if it doesn't work, then we'll blow it up. Because at that point, you would've already lost troops trying to take it. What you propose would be militarily wasteful and insane especially when you have the option of blowing it up without losing any conventional forces in the first place. And the kicker here is, you have no idea how much troops EA would lose in an assault during the GSD time frame. At this point, you would consider EA and ZAFT to be equal. If it turns out you lose an unacceptable amount of conventional forces, then you suddenly put yourself vs your main enemy.

The Playboy Mansion? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo How dare the Mummy strike at the true source of America's greatness... the monthly playmates.

This just made my day! So? Does anyone thick that this Stealth Fighter (or is it a Bomber) will be able to go up against AF-1? I wonder what the HUGE TWIST is gonna be. Another mole? Wait a minute, if we keep with military realism here. It means a ramming mission for the F-117. F-117 don't carry air to air ordanance. They call it a stealth fighter but it's actually a tactical bomber. Although you almost think an F-15 with guns and missiles would do better against AF1. But if you'd ram anyway, it doesn't matter. But may be that's just a big decoy. May be the F-117 is carrying bombs, and they're going to bomb some place... Quick, what's vital in the LA region that a pair of 2000 lb bombs can wreck?

So, what you just said is you have no clue what advantage Orb has because of the ability to produce transformable MS. i.e. it can transform, therefore Orb must hold some advantage or it must mean something. But you have no idea what it means. But it must be an advantage because ZAFT and EA don't mass produce transformable MS. Or are you saying it's not an advantage at all to be able to mass produce transformable MS? Since you are ruling out that Murasames are superior. We can close down that one avenue then. Or did you not mean that? Again. Clarify... superior or not compared to Zakus and Windams? Economically feasible? What does that mean? Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS? In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Are you talking the first war or the second war? Either way both occations the Alliance had no knowledge that Archangel or Freedom were even at Orb. Hence it never factored into the Alliance's plans. I'm trying to look at this situation the way the Alliance's high command would look at it. How does the argument that if Orb goes scorched earth neither the Alliance or ZAFT gets them as an ally, not make sence? Let look at it, Orb destorys it's own R&D facilites, it's gone now, not in the hands of the Alliance or ZAFT. Neither sides can collaborate with Orb to fight the other side. "like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action." So are you saying it would take ALL of the Alliance's resources to occupy Orb? As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once. If you don't think numbers can't be a big factor just go look at WW2. The Earth Alliance is made up of five big superstates, it would take a fraction of their resources to take Orb. Talking purely about GSD. Only as purely a military takeover without the second side getting involved. I'm not saying it takes all of the EA to take Orb, I'm saying EA have enough problems they can't afford to just casually throw around resources and make new enemies without a solid guaranteed gain in the venture. It take non trivial material factors to take over Orb. If EA is truly all that big, and Orb is that trivial, why waste time pulling it in in the first place. It's trivial. Even if you take away Freedom and AA. It's a fight that requires resources with high probability of no gain. Risk vs Reward is the point I'm making. The amount of force to take over Orb either trivial because Orb is trivial, or non-trivial because Orb is non-trivial, you can't have it both ways. The rewards are not obvious in this case. So, do you take a risk? Let's take a different analogy from the last. - There is a box with something in it. (read as unknown rewards for taking Orb) - In order to retrieve that something, you have to stick your hand in the box. (read as military action) - It is a sure thing that your hand will get hurt to some degree when you stick it into the box, but you're not sure exactly how much. (read Orb will fight back and inflict losses). - There is a probability that the act of sticking the hand into the box will destroy whatever is of value. (read self destruct of valuable assets) So, then the question is, do you stick your hand in that box? The answer is yes if and only if you meet the following conditions: - the reward is well defined - the reward is great enough to offset losses incurred - good probability of obtaining reward based on past history The speculation on what Orb has is just not good enough. The impasse we're at seem to be just what the Orb really has to offer. Since we will never get agreement, I think we'll end up debating in circles. Finally, in terms of objectives you had, is the objective to obtain the resources of Orb or simply deny it to the other side? You can't have it both ways. These are conflicting objectives to start with. The former implies you need the resources at Orb, the later imply you don't care what happens to it as long as the other side doesn't get it. It factors significantly into what resources EA high command would spend in accomplishing the said objectives.

Point 1. Congratulations, you have a few personnel, and your infrastructure is trash. It takes time to build up infrastructure regardless. So, your potential is reduced by however long it takes to rebuild your military manufacturing infrastructure, you can't have that at the snap of a finger. Point 2. You're not looking at the scenario, the premise is that Orb says no thanks to diplomatic efforts. EA would have no choice but to go military. Then EA is risking no gain and losses in taking over Orb. You were fond of using the special mobile suit exception earlier, so, now AA and Freedom comes into play in defense of Orb, suddenly, your losses start to shoot up in addition to no gain. At which point it's costing even more to do a military takeover that gets nothing tangible in return. I'll agree if you're limiting the option to diplomatic efforts and threat of military. But the second you go military option, then the equation doesn't add up any more. Your argument: neither EA or ZAFT gets Orb if Orb goes down makes no sense. Because it will take material effort to put down Orb, material effort that might not get anything especially in context of recent past. Think of it like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action.

That's iffy. Why? Because PLANT didn't implement beam technology in their first generation suits. EA and ORB did. The term first generation is a misnomer if you're not taking into consideration the time frame. How long did PLANT have MS prior to the emergence of the first EA/Orb mobile suit? Were the first generation suits of EA/Orb more advanced than the first generation of ZAFT suits? Sure. But the time frame for the release of the first generation EA suits were almost equal to the time frame of release for the second generation of ZAFT suits. Now, if you're talking GSD, for general MS, they're on par. You could make the argument that PLANT was ahead during the start of GS in a general sense if you didn't take into account special MS. If you take the sepcial MS into account and look at it in the context of five months time frame, by then PLANT could still be argued as ahead because their second gen suits included NJCs. Or on par if you considered general production MS. It's all a matter of time frames. You say potential... that's nice, but until you can quantify the potential (I'm assuming you're still talking about weapons technology), it doesn't mean anything. Here are the facts: 1. military R&D infrastructure on Orb destroyed during GS. 2. immigration of many coordinators (ep 1 GSD) who according to Shinn in ep 20 GSD were making the largest contribution to Orb technology. All the facts would point to a reduction of potential. But there is no way to quantify what that remaining potential is. So, at best we're left speculating on what potential they have. Based on just the facts, MS technology indicates that they have no more potential than EA or ZAFT. I don't buy the argument that Murasame is more advanced, if it's just the ability to transform, wonderful... what exactly does that buy you? There is no proof at all that Murasames are superior to Zakus or Windams in performance. So at best, it's just speculation.

Point 1. Orb has the potential to develop weapons you say, but so does everyone else. In fact, if you look on the technology curve, EA and ZAFT are not behind the curve due to past events. At best, they're even. In terms of development in GSD. You can go by what's in the anime. I'm saying that there is no evidence they have anything more advanced than Murasame. Has the anime shown anything more advanced than that? The answer is no. You can't infer ability based on what's not there. Orb itself had to be rebuilt after GS events. Point 2. The reason you have to decouple GS events from GSD events is exactly because Uzumi had a different set of circumstances from Cagalli. His infrastructure wasn't wiped out. If anything you can infer that their technological development suffered a large set back because their R&D capabilities (military wise) was destroyed during GS, and it takes time to rebuild infrastructure. You can have the most brilliant engineer in the world, but if he doesn't have the infrastructure to support him, he isn't going to be putting together a state of the art MS in his garage. Point 3. I disagree on the takeover. You say that there is a derived benefit from the bringing them into the fold. But you are also saying: "never said there would be a guaranteed big payoff." So then the question is why bother at all. Here is the scenario, had Orb declined the invitation, and made the statement that if forced, they'll join the other side. And if as you say, there is no guarantee of a big payoff. What's the point of even trying to bringing them in by force? By diplomacy I can understand, no wasted effort there really. But by force makes no sense. Even if there is no threat of joining the other side, but Orb resisted again, EA or ZAFT would waste resources on trying to take over things? Especially since they went scorched earth last time, there is a good chance they'll do it again. So, it's a waste of resources to just take over a barren rock if everything is wiped out. EA may want to secure the potential, but if Orb showed backbone at all, then it becomes time wasted trying to secure a miniscule quantity of resources of unknown quality when there is a wider war to be fought. So, bottom line, if you don't think it's a big pay off, would you risk going to attacking and probably not get anything?

Yeah, you are mixing it up. You're saying Orb tech was a big advantage in GS, and therefore it is a big advantage in GSD. I'm saying it's not, I agree with the first part, but not the second part. For technology at start of each series: GS: Orb > PLANT (?) > Alliance GSD: PLANT (?) > Orb = Alliance (consider this, if the trio of new Gundams weren't superior to everything else either in the field or existance (Freedom excepted), why would the Alliance steal them? The same argument applied to GS when the first four gundams were stolen) You are saying that both side would want Orb because of their technology/ability to develop weapons. I'm saying, that's not true given that technology wise they're on par. In the weapons development case, Windam is not an Orb product, just as the trio of Gundams were not Orb products. They have incorporated Orb originated technology, but they are not Orb manufactured. i.e. Orb didn't sit side by side with the Alliance and design the Windams. Orb manufactured products are Murasame and Astray variants. By extension, as Murasame/Astray are equivalent to Windams, therefore weapons development and technology is on par. If you really are keen in tracing where technology came from, you'd have to say that the PLANTS are ahead because they had the first generation of suits, and there are almost certainly features incorporated into the Orb MS that came out of the original PLANT MS. The fact that Orb got ahead of them in GS doesn't mean anything in GSD, because it was a temporary advantage. PLANTS came out with the NJC equipped Gundams. Which Orb had no answer for. Alliance came out with their second gen GATs which Orb also had no answer for. Incorporated with Orb developed tech? Sure... but since Orb developed tech ain't a secret, it ain't an advantage.