Hurin

Yeah, I mean, I don't ever recall crying out for a reason that the OT duels were different/slower than the prequels. I just figured that it was because we had different standards for exciting fight/swordplay scenes now than we did then. . . and we didn't have an actor in a bulky suit with poor visibility. I remember noticing the disparity, but not having a problem with it. This really is just another example of Lucas fixing something that didn't need to be fixed, and (in the point of view of some) harming the story and/or characters in the process. I and others have been called "Vader Worshippers" here. Now, they definitely exist. But, for the record, I'm not one of them. I've actually always been disturbed by my friend who has rooted for the Vader ever since I can remember, while I always rooted for Luke. I'm likewise disturbed by the wannabe-hip people who root for the Sith in these new films and cheer when the Jedi get massacred. I'm not a Vader apologist. I just think he was an incredibly good villain. And, by diminishing his power and the threat he represented, Lucas is not only diminishing him as a villain, but also diminishing the heroes that defeated him along with the story as a whole. That is why I have a problem with this latest bit of revisionism on the part of Lucas. It's not only uncessary, but detracts from the heroes and story as much as the villain. H

And, again, one can feel that the suit is a terrible curse and that Anakin would hate it even if did not impinge on his former abilities. You allege state that the armor must make him a "lesser man" or its effect as an "eternal prison" would be "ruined." But, there are other ways of making him a lesser man than simply robbing him of mobility and strength. His inablity to breathe on his own, his inability to see as he once did, or touch. . . these all render him a lesser man than he once was. But that doesn't necessarily preclude his being even more powerful as this new, "lesser man." Allege? Allege? What, are we in court now? I realize that you really, really enjoy arguing, but if you're going to attempt to paint every comment I make as some sort of allegation, insinuation, or possibly a fabrication (all words with less-than-nice connotations, for the thesaurus impared), then there's even less point in discussing this with than I originally thought. But back to your point, you do somewhat seem to sense that there's more to this than some hasty, last minute retcon. Sweet merciful crap! WTF!?! You have a twisted view of the word "allege" if it gets you all riled up like that! I'm not even going to address this odd outburst any further than to post the definition of allege: To assert to be true; affirm: alleging his innocence of the charge. To assert without or before proof: The indictment alleges that the commissioner took bribes. To state (a plea or excuse, for example) in support or denial of a claim or accusation: The defendant alleges temporary insanity. Archaic. To bring forward as an authority. Well, I admit some extrapolation in that both you and Togo state that it is blindingly obvious that Vader is crippled and obviously much less agile than he was as Anakin. So, I'm sorry, but what else could you two be addressing other than Vader's agility during the lightsaber duels? Did I miss a scene where Vader makes a laughably inept attempt at a pommel-horse routine? Okay, so now we essentially agree that the confining factors on the OT duels wasn't that Lucas envisioned Vader as crippled, but rather the standards of the time and/or the limitations of the costume. Try as I might, I can't make heads or tails of your point here. My point has always been that Vader was originally envisioned as poweful, agile, and strong throughout the OT. And I think that Lucas had to come up with some BS to explain away the differences in fighting style between the OT and the Prequels (Vader suddnely becoming physically disabled). When I pointed out the BS, some of you came to its defense saying that it was obvious that what Lucas now alleges states was always obviously the case. Now, however, given what you're writing, I'm not sure what you believe. But I can say, unequivocally, that I don't think he should have forced slower, OT-style lightsaber duels on the prequels for the sake of consistency. I just don't think he needs to make Vader a less powerful villain in order to restore consistency. And I think it is a poor choice to do so. Sue me. Hmm, I'll have to check that out. I vaguely remember something like that too. H

That's odd. Then why say this? It seems to me that you would only bring this up if you thought some of us were indeed trying to paint the suit as a net gain (thus a reward) for Anakin. Indeed, that seems to be the entire point of the imaginary script that I quoted back. I didn't feel like addressing a quote that you didn't provide. But if I must. . . I think I remember something similar as well from the Ep1 era (as you allege). . . and it sounds to me more like a rationalization of why the OT duels are so much slower in retrospect. It's retroactive justification and revision in light of what we now see in the prequels. . . not the real reason the OT was filmed that way originally. As for him (possibly) calling Vader "crippled" in the mid-nineties as you allege, he already had a vision of what the duels would like like in the Prequels and might already be uncomfortable with the contrast. Guys, seriously. . . just answer this question to yourself: Do you really think that George Lucas slowed down the action on the set of ANH because he considered Vader to be slow and crippled. That's really the only question here. Do you think he ever turned to David Prowse and said: "Whoa there champ! You're supposed to have two cybernetic legs. . . you can't move that fast!" Do you think he ever turned to Mark Hammil and said: "You're only partially trained as a Jedi at this point. I don't want you to do anything too fancy or exciting. And Vader is crippled, so I'm going to have him move very slowly around you." That's the crux of this. . . and if you answer that question "yes". . . then we're done here. Because I just don't think you're being realistic or taking into account all the factors. H

Yes, he is manipulating both of them. I think the idea was that Luke had to kill Vader in anger to fully embrace the Dark Side. Palpatine envisioned Luke embracing the power of the Dark Side and using it to kill Vader. I think Vader was hoping that Luke would embrace the power of the Dark Side and turn on Palpatine in anger, and the two of them (Vader and Luke) could then kill the Emperor. Palpatine was expecting that day to end with only Luke or Vader at his side. I think he probably preferred Luke. But this new idea that he preferred Luke because Vader was so darn crippled in that suit is just plain revionist in my view.

Maybe you missed the part were Luke was beating the snot out of Vader, and the Emperor was looking for Luke to finish him and join as his new apprentice. if you missed the manipulation of Vader in the OT, I can't help you, but its fairly obvious to most. God, I love it when you pick some tiny part of someone's argument and then make a totally irrelevant point in a triumphant tone. How does this demonstrate that Palpatine wanted Luke more than Vader because Luke could shoot blue lightning out of his hands and was more physically agile? One more time. Say it with me: The Emperor thought that the Force might have been stronger in Luke than in Vader. It wasn't a question of who could jump further or run faster. As for Vader being manipulated by Palpatine in the "OT". . . I didn't know the Emperor appeared in ANH. And, if anything, Vader is attempting to manipulate Palpatine during the whole 90 seconds in which the Emperor appears in ESB.

Dude. . . nobody is saying that Vader considers his armor and cybernetic limbs a reward. Nobody is saying that he wouldn't rather be his formerly whole self. The armor makes him stronger, and (I believe) just as agile as he ever was. But he's still horribly scarred, in constant pain, and unable to survive outside of the suit, much less ever feel the true touch of another human hand. . . or the feeling of sunshin on his face. Nobody is claiming that he wanted or liked what happened to him! Talk about setting up a straw-man! Nobody said that he is better because of his suit. We're merely saying that to say he was crippled is largely revisionist. And to believe that Lucas made those duels so slow in the OT on purpose because he always envisioned Vader as being crippled and slow is just well. . . guillable. H

Yeah, I agree (big surprise). Obi-Wan's references to Vader being "more machine now than man, twisted and evil" are in response to Luke stating that there might still be good in him. Obi-Wan was clearly not addressing Vader's abilities. We're constantly shown in SW that people can lose arms and legs and be absolutely no worse for wear. . . they just throw on a cybernetic replacement that is just as good if not stronger and better than the original. Now all of a sudden, he's crippled? Also, keep in mind that we didn't know how many of his limbs were cybernetic until EpIII. This whole idea that he was crippled where his agility and strength are concerned seems awfully revisionist (in the most literal sense). H

Exactly! Actually, I think this may be Lucas's half-hearted, retroactive attempt to explain away (within the continuity) why the lightsaber action is so different between the OT and Prequels. But, judging Vader's abilities in the OT based upon what's shown in the Prequels is a bit misleading. Everyone moves slower in the OT, not just poor crippled ol' Vader. Why is Luke fighting in a plodding, two-handed fashion if he's "all natural" and capable of so much more? Was he just being nice and didn't want to show up his dad? Was he really so poorly trained at that point that he couldn't use some of that agility that he obviously learned on Dagobah? The answer is that everyone moves so much slower in the OT because (#1) that's how Lucas wanted it (he told the choreographer that he wanted "two-handed broadsword style" duels). And (#2), they were limited by David Prowse's suit. The Prequels are faster and more frenetically paced because he had younger actors, an audience spoiled by Jackie Chan and expecting more than just two old people swinging broomsticks at each other, and no bulky costume limitations. Vader's armor is bionic and powered (including the eyes). Prowse's costume was just plain heavy and hard to see in.

I really dislike Lucas's latest take on Vader (first mentioned in the Visual Guide to ep3 and repeated in an interview in Rolling Stone) that the Emperor was disappointed in Vader once he was rebuilt. That really seems to have come out of the blue. . . there is no hint of it in the novel (based on a slightly earlier screenplay by Lucas). It seems like a very recent (even to Lucas) take on Vader that I'm not sure jives well with the image of him he's developed over the past quarter-century. Latest take? Vader is practically a cripple in the OT. The Emperor clearly wants Luke to take Vader's place. How can you watch the OT and not see this? I can watch the OT and not see Vader as a cripple because he never acts as one. In fact, he's shown as being stronger, more agile, and more skilled with a lightsaber than Luke. This is demonstrated by how he handles Luke one-handed at the beginning of the Bespin duel. I think you guys are confusing David Prowse's real-world limitations in the suit with Vader's limitations in the fictional world. He's shown leaping, and moving with ease (again within the limitations of real-world film-making within that costume). Why else would Palpatine want Luke? Because Luke was younger (always a bonus!), and possibly stronger in the Force than Vader. Not, IMHO, because Luke could shoot blue lightning out of his natural hands and Vader could not. Nowhere, anywhere does it say that Vader is at all held back by his suit. In fact, most novelizations (especially the earlier EU ones such as Shadows of the Empire) go out of their way to demonstrate how quick and agile he is. If you guys have any evidence that Vader was held back by his suit that doesn't originate in the last year, I'd like to see it. The fiction up this point, if anything, had the suit enhancing his strength, if not his agility. But it certainly wasn't a liability in combat. H

I really dislike Lucas's latest take on Vader (first mentioned in the Visual Guide to ep3 and repeated in an interview in Rolling Stone) that the Emperor was disappointed in Vader once he was rebuilt. That really seems to have come out of the blue. . . there is no hint of it in the novel (based on a slightly earlier screenplay by Lucas). It seems like a very recent (even to Lucas) take on Vader that I'm not sure jives well with the image of him he's developed over the past quarter-century. There was just no hint in anything prior to these rather off-hand comments that Vader was at all limited by the machinery that keeps him alive. Now, all of a sudden, he's held back by it all. Vader was the sh*t until just a few months ago. Now, he's a disappointment, a hack, and a fool. I still like Episode III, but I don't like Lucas's spin on Vader that (once again) I don't think he even conceived of twenty (or even three) years ago. Yes, there was always the feeling that Luke might be more powerful than Vader eventually. . . but not because of damage done to Vader, but because Luke might just be more inherently strong with the Force. H

Actually, mine was given just before this thread was started. So there.

Indeed. I seem to recall something about pieces of dragonmount flesh flying all around Obi-Wan? Yeah, Cody has a large number of troopers and tanks unload on Obi-Wan with a multitude of weapons. If I recall, in the movie, a single tank fires upon him. The only thing that saves Obi-Wan is that his mount somehow senses the impending attack and turns her body to shield him. Which vindicates Obi-Wan's careful choice of a mount (with the help of the Force) a few scenes earlier.

But, the one thing we agree on here is that people shouldn't be able to choose their own. Otherwise, I'd have picked "haterist's favorite!"

Uh, wouldn't that have sorta destroyed the whole premise of the movie? I'm missing something here. . . I can't figure out why the aircraft carrier from the future should have been carrying WWII era aircraft. Edit: And 30 seconds later, the lightbulb comes on! You mean that it would have been cooler to see the A10s fighting the WWII era aircraft rather than the F14s doing so. Yes, I was missing something. But, if you consider the "them" in your sentence to be the Japanese, you can see where I was confused.

I am totally entertained and thrilled by your enthusiasm for being 'down with' whatever you are down with... KEEP IT UP! In fact you should do this in every thread on this board. He's actually supporting your prior post. He's booing the fact that we still can't see the old boards despite these teases. I'm the guy who's "down with everything." H

That's pretty much exactly what the book says. Order 66 was engrained in them since before they awoke in their cloning chambers. Even so, they are still human and Cody is shown to have some regret about it (even if he demonstrates it as rueful humor regarding the timing -- having just given back Obi-Wan's lightsaber), even though he carries out the order ruthlessly. . . much more ruthlessly than in the movie.

Nevermind. That would be you, hoss. H

That would probably be MGREXX. Though, the trick is to get a title without being a total ass-hat. In the case of someone getting one that wasn't an ass-hat, I think Gaijin wins. He just got his based on what he has said in this very thread. H

Well, just finished the novel. It was very good. Really (as most novelizations do) added a lot to the movie. But anyways, as Yoda, Bail, and Obi-Wan are figuring out what to do at the end, they even have the foresight to make it appear that Padme is still pregnant when she is buried. Which, begs the question. . . if they really don't want Vader to know that his offspring survived Padme's death, why the hell did they never bother to change Luke's last name to something other than Skywalker! By all accounts, Vader learns of Luke's existence after the Battle of Yavin, through spies. . . if he had changed his name to Luke Jones, he might have continued to train and grow stronger, and confront Vader and the Emperor on his own terms having been fully trained by Yoda. Luke Jones. . . now that has a great ring to it! H

Ah, we're updating our suck-o-meters! Hurin's Star Wars Suck-o-meter 100 - NO SUCKAGE 95 - 90 - Empire Strikes Back 85 - 80 - A New Hope 75 - 70 - Revenge of the Sith 65 - 60 - Return of the Jedi 55 - Attack of the Clones 50 - 45 - 40 - 35 - 30 - The Phantom Menace 25 - 20 - 15 - 10 - 05 - 00 - FULL SUCKAGE I believe that when we were making these Suck-o-Meters in that thread, I said I was hoping for a score of 80 for Sith. It came in right around there in my book, at 70. I moved ANH down a notch though too upon further reflection. More to give Empire more credit than to actually penalize ANH

Good eye! This has actually been noticed before. But, hey, it's been a long time since it was mentioned. So no harm done. H

Dude, I already HAVE a title! I almost wrote "Not you A1, you already have a title." Next time, I'll follow my gut.

Nice title Gaijin!

I think a lot of the fun would be removed from them if they're publically debated and nominated. Right now, they're good because they're just an inside joke and a way of acknowledging (and gently ribbing) people who have been around a while and contributed something positive either through humor, information, or just plain being a good guy (among other things). But, I think they would lose some of their value if they weren't just sorta arbitrarily handed out by the mods and admins. It's not a big deal either way. But I think I'd rather see the mods and admins just pick a time (like twice a year) to discuss amongst themselves who "needs" a title. . . and just dish them out as usual. I think the only problem with the custom titles as they stand now is that it had been a long time since any had been handed out. . . so those who had them seemed to be in some sort of an elite club. Well, now that I have one, that theory is gone! But, I can think of at least one person who is long overdue for a title. He always makes a ton of sense, usually brings something new and interesting to a conversation, never gets in fights, and seems like an all-around great guy. But, I'd nominate him privately via PM rather than posting in a thread about it. We should also consider that if someone who is nominated in such a public way has any "enemies" (it's sad that we have such things here, but it happens), it might get ugly as it might be seen as an open invitation for someone to come in and say why they shouldn't get one, and bad-mouth that person. It'd be like a nasty judicial nomination hearing in the senate! H P.S. It was very awkward to write that, since I just got one. Oh, but A1, I didn't delete my prior post after seeing my new title. I wrote it after seeing it, and then thought better of it. But what is above was largely what I had there last night.

Nevermind. I just got one. So I'm probably biased. H