VF5SS

the cockpit hatch is what gives the Fire Valkyrie's head fin enough space to store cleanly in fighter mode they kind of needed that

http://collectiondx.com/blog/vf5ss/veef_show_episode_30_kusoge_riches_macross_gaming_tale Ju-just because your in the uncool timezone, doesn't mean you can nod off and breathe on the microphone, Veef! :< We're discussing Macross games and other related topics. NEVER FORGET

listen mister somebody worked really hard on all those maps and you're going to enjoy every inch of them

This game is really boring But check out that robot So cool

I know this may sound strange, but generally the joy of a game starts with its mechanics. People enjoy Super Mario Brothers because it is a well designed game that offers what is on the surface, a simple platformer. The basic concepts of this game have survived for over 20 years and with revisions and new ideas, it has managed to stay relevant and fun. By contrast, a game like The Cheetahmen is a platformer where one would have a hard time finding any joy in it because mechanically it's a complete mess. Just watch any youtube video of it and you'll see why. Not that games with questionable or clunky game design can't be fun. We have people on MW swear up and down that VF-X2 is a fun game. I mean I've had fun with it and I sure played the US demo a lot back in the day, but it's such a relic of its time and has been surpassed by other games. I'd argue there were even games from the same time period that did many things a lot better than VF-X2. My problem with Battletech is that it has become very insular and self serving. You may say my opinion is in the minority, but myself and others have all come to many of the same conclusions about Battletech with regards to its universe and game mechanics. Given that it is as you said, a table top game at heart, I believe you can make objective criticisms about how the game is built and how it is played. This is afterall, the whole reason for the game industry existing. The way I see it right now, the game and its subsequent spinoffs do not encourage team play, do not encourage the use of varied configurations, do not encourage tactics outside the few exploitive things that can work repeatedly, and other things. It is never a point in a game's favor when players are basically told to ignore the flaws and hope someone else is there to moderate things. It's also not a point in the game's favor when it runs smoothly when wrapped up in a program like MegaMek. I am not saying Gundam is the standard for which all mecha are judged. However, I do feel they are a good example of machines that are well designed and fit their universe. I could use almost any series really like say Patlabor. Patlabor has a wide range of different types of robots whose designs all offer advantages and disadvantages. Any Patlabor series has shown stuff like, this is an Ingram and these are the things it can excel at. When forced to confront the HAL-X-10, which is a very different type of robot, the Ingram must function within the limitations of its design in order to subdue the HAL-X-10. The same goes for a show like Xabungle, Gundam, Layzner, Dougram, etc etc. Now you're probably asking what do I think is a bad design? http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/5/53/FLC-Falconer.png Right here. This is terrible. Its joints have no real range of motion. It has no torso, which I pointed out before is a huge disadvantage when it comes time to put it in a video game. While the table top game abstracts a lot of the functionality of designs so that they are all roughly equal, video games using 3d models cannot do the same without a massive redesign. As I said before, it is a design that offers no tangible advantages in terms of the game world and when transplanted to a three dimensional, direct fire based video game suddenly it's completely worthless. Now if the game said well it's lower to the ground or it trades agility for speed or armor, then maybe there would be a reason it looks like this. Also why does it have a boomerang in its leg? http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/4/48/CHP-2NCHAMPION.png Here's another one. How does this even move? Is it like an old toy that hobbles along? How does it drop the prone position? How does it stand up after falling down with no knees? Even if it can stand up, wouldn't it be slower? How does it move its arms to target enemies? Where's the head? How are you supposed to be able to target a head on this thing from the rear?? If these are designs whose sole purpose is to exist in a game, shouldn't it conform to the basic rules of the game? Apparently not because FASA had to include such designs like the Glaug which don't conform the basic humanoid shape the rules are designed to cope with. Now these aren't the only designs I could use (cuz Btech's got a lotta shite) but these two just spring to mind. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/3/3a/3025_Atlas1.jpg Now this is much better than the previous two. While not all of its articulation is evident, it has a good, solid humanoid shape. It even demonstrates its hip articulation because the artist totally posed it like all that Dougram art they were using. But hey, at least it has knees and even a waist joint for torso twisting. It still has some issues like how some of the random holes and tubes had to be repurposed into different things because the artist and stat writer were not on the same page. Now my main complaint with the mechanical designs in Battletech also has something to do with the fans. They have rallied around these machines that employ blocky structures and restricted joints as if they mean something more than just primitivism and lack of design work. They say this is clunky and unworkable, therefore it must be realistic. The reality being that without a core of dedicated artists with clearly stated goals, Battletech just accepted whatever they could find to pad the ranks of each new source book. It's actually kind of fascinating to see how Battletech art changed depending on the influence of the Mechwarrior games. http://www.pryderockindustries.com/downloads/product_scans/1605/1605_36_lucky_stinger_big.jpg Does an image like this conform to the walking tank ideal? http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:EnforcerIII.jpg What's this guy doing other than dancing in the skies? Give him a hulahoop and he's all set. I think a lot of people just looked at Mechwarrior 2 (you know the one a lot people played) and said that because of the limited animations of the Battlemechs that this must be how they would really move. Now later games and their CG openings tried to deviate from this, but a lot of fans took it as sacrelidge to suggest anything outside the "walking tank" mindset. Of course the table top game made its hexagon battlefields correspond to a size that is bigger than the 'Mech that occupies it, which suggests they may be doing more than just running straight from place to place firing their weapons (and missing half the time). Again the Mechwarrior games took a very literal approach to adapting the table top game and did visible suffer for it. Now I can't pretend to know what this new game will do, but based on the difficulties expressed by the developers, I don't have high hopes they are going to radically change anything. I know it's possible to do a Battletech game that is truer to the spirit of the core game without being married to game mechanics that never worked well to begin with. All you have to realize is most people just like the big stompy robots and not so much the nitty gritty details of such. Mechwarrior and Battletech are so utterly ubiquitos and yet so dated and insular. It's something that people have hailed as the most gritty and realistic of robot properties (and lord it over other people who disagree), but all I see is "this is how we did things and this is how we will continue to do things." You know I've heard Mechassault managed to be the most played game on X-box live until Halo 2 came out. Yet the the vaunted Sarna wiki doesn't seem to acknowledge it.

If you don't like the Fire Valkyrie you can go play GURPS :<

i hafta use lots of words because then people will understand maybe i dunno :c But seriously, Min-maxing like a Munchkin is just an outgrowth of terrible game design. I don't have any fantasies that game design in the 80's was anywhere near the science it is these days and it is very clear the the handful of guys who founded FASA didn't do much serious play testing. One BT fangirl I know put it best, level 1 Battletech is the most balanced because everything sucks equally. The stock 3025 designs so so quaint and simple, it's easy to see why people played with them. Of course, FASA was not prepared for the torrent unleashed when they published Battlemech design rules. And that's what irked me about playing Mechwarrior 3. Here I was, a wide eyed youth moving through the campaign with my lunchbox trucks keep me repaired while I jammed to Weird Al's Running With Scissors. Then I try to flex my skills on the MSN gaming network and suddenly I'm confronted with hundreds of other players using essentially the same setup because the game has no balance whatsoever. There was no sense of skill involved because you could win with the same repetitive tactics. Never give the players the power to design anything because they are smarter and dirtier than you can ever imagine.

Considering my opinions are being met with people saying I should just go away or that I don't get it, maybe I'm not the one being close minded here. And as far as filling in little circles like an SAT, well players generally fire more than one weapon at a time. Let's not even talk about the designs that have nothing but medium lasers. While the system is somewhat simple, it's also something that slows down the flow of the game. I feel the good in Battletech and I must try to redeem it from the dark age side. I have given examples of how things derived from the board game negatively impact the design of the Mechwarrior titles. Like the use of the set limbs as hit points works in the context of the board game because of random hit locations. You can't just hammer one part reliably to fill up those dots. However, even back in Mechwarrior 1, the precision of the weapons allowed for players to easily target certain body parts and destroy 'Mechs with little effort or the same repetitive strategy. If you ever played Mechwarrior 3 multiplayer, this was a huge problem. People would pick the same three or four designs, loaded with LB-X cannons, lasers, or missiles and run around shooting at legs. This problem was really widespread (even made it into the gamefaqs). So in essence, aspects of the board game that this particular PC game employed ended up making the game far less enjoyable than it should be. Maybe that's my own fault for gaming on the internet but we don't like to admit to the mistakes of our youth. Like I said previously, even the developers for the new game have admitted they are having issues reconciling guided missiles with how they want the game to be played. http://mwomercs.com/...10/2-dev-blog-0 See how the problems of the previous games are shaping what they want to do? I'm not going to argue game development is not difficult, however I do not believe the mechanics of Mechwarrior were so sacrosanct that other companies were not allowed to use them. There were several Mechwarrior clones for example, such as Earth Siege, Star Siege, Iron Soldier, the aforementioned G-Nome, and others. Now I'm sure companies were not willing to share code or design documents but there are many common issues to all of the Mechwarrior games which to me, says there are issues with the source material. Much of Mechwarrior is heavily based on the table top game proper so there is a transitive effect when it comes to their problems. Sometimes we say this in Macross 7 threads but it rarely works :c So you're saying that I if I don't like it, then leave? I was trying to suggest that a single game system can evolve over time without having to just abandon it for another. A franchise can and often will attempt to reivent itself in order to attract new blood. It's one of the things we mock Robotech for not doing. Nostalgia can only get you so far. Even Transformers does this to varying degrees of success. but I guess we can't discuss this matter. let's just go back to watching TheLoneWolf critical hit the FASA owned stuff theory rolled a head shot

The point of the game is to be badly designed? You know when people hated THAC0 in D&D they ended up replacing it with something that worked better. Or at least it caused less headaches. But I guess I can't ask Battletech to improve because being terrible is part of its charm or something. Well since we now know Tatsunoko has no rights to those designs outside of merchandising you have to ask if what FASA did is merchandising. Even Jetfires had Tatsunoko stickers. That's just part of their rights to Macross. Regardless, Studio Nue is never credited nor is Tatsunoko mentioned anywhere with regards to Battletech and Sunrise isn't credited either. Also Nichimo and Nitto must have also supplied box art since a lot of old Battletech art is literally traced from that box art. jeez mang really? AC hasn't had robots jumping around like crazy since maybe the first game. Even then it was just a natural 3d platforming thing. They really felt like three dimensional versions of the Assault Suits games like Leynos and Valken (Target Earth and Cybernator) right down to how you moved your arms up and down to aim. Nobody is moving like a Legend of Zelda fairy in AC For Answer. Except maybe Fragile but he's a jerk. Again, not saying I enjoyed Mechwarrior in many iterations but why are these games so stuck in the same rut as the first game from 1989? Game design has come a long way since then yet fans insist it has to be this way otherwise it's not "proper" Mechwarrior.

Selling model kits does not equal the ability to create an entire new franchise based on these designs. It'd be like some German company importing tiny Gundam kits and making their own table top game. And given how Tatsunoko declined to support FASA in any way leads me to believe their deal with them was rather shaky. I've been trying to cajole an old time anime fan who was there to talk about this on my show. Either way, FASA's descendants need to move on. Yeah there's no nonsense in this thing or the 20 ton car with a fusion engine or this thing with the boomerang in its leg. Battletech is really nothing but nonsense from its core rules to the universe that's too stupid to build a simple lead indicator for a gun sight without a 1 ton computer. Jump jetting is pretty much dancing in the skies. At least it has to be pretty accurate to allow 'mechs to move on the bounce and leap from building to building while spinning around to land in any direction. I have at least a dozen books, map sheets, miniatures, and other knickknacks I've collected over the years. I've played the game often with friends and even online using Megamek. I don't really care about the universe because whatever, generic sci-fi future with some politics I don't care about. Honestly I have had fun with the game and I do have a fascination with it, but I have no illusions that it is anything but a terrible old system that needs to be replaced. I know that would mean throwing out all the rules-whoring Munchkin designs people make but even D&D managed to survive several revisions. Battletech is almost schizophrenic in the way it abstracts some concepts as high level ideas but then throws it all in with pointless minutiae. The color in the dot hit point system is archaic, weapons fire is needlessly finicky, the friggen piloting roll chart is endless, and all other things that make any game with heavier 'Mechs or battles with more than 4 units aside even more glacial than a standard game. And really the constant bleating of "walking tank" by fans and developers who bought into it only makes 'Mechs seem incredibly useless even in their own universe. There's nothing gritty or realistic about giant robots that fail to hit each other with lasers and autocannons at less that a kilometer apart when they move like 70's tin walking toy. Oh but we can't make the hex sizes too big because then everything would be too fast amirite. I'm not saying combined arms isn't something a lot of sci-fi universes need, but if you're going to have giant robots you need them to perform an effective role on the battlefield. I consider the humble Scopedog to be far more gritty and realistic than any Battlemech. For one thing it was designed by a guy who learned how do draw limbs that appear like they can move ya know. Not like most Battletech are where artists struggle with a hip joint. As much as Scopedogs die by act of plot, a few good pilots show that they can effectively engage and fight many different kinds of opponents by using their natural advantages without having to rely on rules twisting around to suit them. And all of this terrible game design affect the design of the PC games. Remember Mechwarrior 1 where the robots moved so slowly yet the precise laser and PPCs could headshot anything repeatedly over and over again? Mechwarrior 2 didn't have this problem as much because all the weapons were represented by Star Warzy style bolts and blue meatball PPCs. Also in MW2 you didn't fall down and die when you lost a leg. You just stood around on one leg acting like a turret. In MW3 the instant effect lasers were back and the lose a leg and die rule was re-instated. Now you had people running around in LB-X, missile, or laser boats aiming for legs because they still kept the squiddamn board game idea of limbs being giant blocks of hit points. And my brief time playing MW4 taught me that you could medium laser your way to victory because there is almost nothing better than a block of medium lasers. When you take away the random hit locations of the board game, suddenly these clunky robots become huge targets. Just see how the developers on this new MW have admitted to struggling on how to reconcile missiles in the game. Oddly enough the off brand MW2 clone G-Nome was able to model damage on each limb almost literally by the polygon. So de-legging someone was actually difficult. It also offered things like an auto tracking function for your torso and weapons and other little touches. Also why are so many Battlemechs drawn without basic points of articulation like waist joints when torso turning is a part of the goshdarn rules? Yeah it doesn't matter to the table top setting but Mr. 3d modeler has to deal with it and Mr. Programmer has to take some poor 'Mech (LOOKING AT YOU, BLACKHAWK) and give it 5 degrees of twist to either side because its legs are bolted to its body at the rear. The way it's built has no advantages and even a severe disadvantage in the context of the games. This is bad. Even Armored Core let differently shaped parts do different things. Don't mind me I've been replaying MW2 for PS1 because I'll be damned if I can get my legit copy of MW2 Mercenaries to play nice with any VMware or DOSbox. I actually find it genuinely disheartening to see people (not you. well maybe you :x) stick with Battletech and handwave its problems away through the excuse of "well that's just the feel of it all" when it is entirely possible to revamp the system while keeping the same look and feel. I'm certainly no stranger to brand loyalty but sometimes you have to learn to scrutinize a bad thing when you see it. Also I'm pretty tired of Battletech and Mechwarrior fans (again not you personally) lording their stuff over them inferior hippie Japbots because they believe the superior "Western approach" trumps them all. tl;dr don't get me started :[ p.s. Dougram is better Battletech than Battletech, discuss.

The Locust is based on the Ostall from Crusher Joe actually. Like how the Galleon is just the Galleon oops

You know better than that. I just believe Battletech needs to let go of something they used without the right holder's consent due to 80's fookery.

Well when your company oversteps its bounds in using artwork sub licensed from model kits companies yeah that's kind of stealing. Big West, Studio Nue, and Sunrise certainly were not informed of what was happening. And yeah a lot of the rules were based on their weird interpretations of the original designs like "lol tubes on Dougram's head are SRM2" I mean I've had fun with the game but you don't believe Battletech is a well designed game do you please say you don't

I have a soft spot for the original 3025 designs. Not the stolen ones but like the Commando, Centurion, Atlas, and Panther. Anything that actual conforms to the (awful) rules in some way. Because really how does a Catapult go prone.

http://mwomercs.com/news/2011/10/2-dev-blog-0 It's basically what they decided to do because of what happened. Love how they lie about Harmony Gold.

From what I've seen the fandom pretty much universally rejected the Project Phoenix designs. They're not that great.

how does any of this solve the leg shooting problem

Isn't some inexplicable coincidence involving music the driving force behind almost every Macross? Yeah Basara does charge in to the thick of things a lot but I don't fault him for having Justy Ueki Tyler or Chirico Cuvie levels of luck.

I can do nothing but agree with the crazy poniez on that one.

http://boards.4chan.org/m/res/7019711 oh hey someone posted that treatment grab it quick, 4chan threads go fast~

Some people feed their families because of plastic toys ;-;

I too am offended that a company would create a toy based on a character from a TV series they are currently focusing on rather than take the time to develop something that played a small part in a music video. Clearly they are not simultaneously working on another toy. the nerve :<

Brera targeting stuff with his eyes closed was supposed to be like Guld in Macross Plus. They were big on showing his eyeballs moving around underneath his eyelids. gotta feel the machine inside you

If you go by episode count it's pretty 50/50 really. Millia gives the S type to him after they stripped the red paint off it and he has it through Operation Stargazer.

I never found DYRL to be incomprehensible without the TV series. Some things you could just take at face value like any old sci-fi movie. With regards to some things the refugee from the apatosaurus preserve said, Luka was not inexplicable alive again when they totally show Mikhail saving him from being spaced. Like when he talks about being saved they show it. Now about the fleet that comes to help the Quarter, I think that just points to SMS and NUNS having a larger presence in the galaxy than previously thought. SMS is tied to the Frontier fleet and they could have been in contact with a nearby NUNS fleet to come to the rescue. I don't think the movie implied they came all the way from Earth but whatever.