NeoverseOmega

If the bucket's got "Abyss" written on the bottom in big bold letters, then sure.

Excellent point, and probably one of the reasons why the definitions we have been using have been chafing at me. Basara's mode of operation makes far more sense outside of western mysticism even if it is loaded with references to it. For someone who knows far more about the mysticism of my own culture than the religions of others, I try to be cautious in making these kinds of projections - It's nice to hear it from someone more familiar with Shinto, Buddhism, and I suspect a smattering of Hindu. A loose definition of messiah kind of works, but even loose definitions kind of suggest a singular person set aside by destiny - not a role that has a place in the universe that will fill itself by virtue of being. In some ways that sounds - forgive me if I'm off on this - almost Taoist. Whatever the case, Macross 7 seems to knit together a wide variety of differing symbol systems to come to a spiritual philosophy of its own. After all, in western mythology, fallen angels aren't changeable - but If I remember correctly in Hindu myth angels and demons are just at different stages of development and can change back and forth into each other over the eons (again, correct me if I'm grossly mistaken). Saying that the protodeviln simply need to find "Enlightenment" to move on to a higher stage of development seems to fit into that kind of mythic system. Of course in the show it's accomplished by singing, which can be a little painful at times. But in a way it makes sense considering that in most spiritual systems its the deep inexplicable and paradoxical nature of human feeling that is often used to make an argument for something that exists outside of crude flesh. That's hard to represent, but philosophers have often compared the soul to music. Heh, I don't know if any of the writers were thinking that deeply, at this point I may have gone a little to far in projecting my own thoughts, but it does kind of seem to fit. If nothing else, musics ability to move people (and even animals) can seem pretty mysterious, so I'm sure their instincts said that it was the best way to make it work in a story. Besides, kids like Rock Stars!

Quotes three and four do work to some degree (well, except that his role is expected, I don't think Basara himself is an "expected" deliverer - again, no prophesy per se). You are quite correct as far as a literal somewhat contemporary interpretation of the word Messiah. I'm just trying to be very careful about it's connotation. Yes, a LOT of people have a hard time separating it from it's Hebrew roots. For better or for worse, the word Messiah initially meant annointed (referring to the divinely appointed King of the Hebrews). It began as a vision of a largely military leader, then the Christian tradition gave it another spin. Since then literary definitions have developed and it has become an Archetype (even in some psychological circles, so among specialists you could add a stage of development to that list). Actually I'm pretty familiar with it. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to just cling to what we see in a dictionary, words have effects on people. Heh, it's like if I try to explain to a girl that technically a b*!$h is just a female dog - and most dogs are loyal, cute and cuddly, I'd probably still go home with a black eye! Once I see a word has so much baggage that it makes it hard to communicate to some people, I try other options. There is no doubt that the symbolism is there, but I do kind of doubt that the writers intended it to mean what the term Messiah means to many people. Yes, there is sacrifice and a state like death that Basara awakes from - but it's not his resurrection that rescues people, nor does it seem to mark a stage of development for Basara to "ascend". Instead it seems to be there largely to make the reference, and perhaps to show someone how powerful love for an enemy can be. But the kind of Messiah that Valkyrie Addict is responding to (probably balking at the image of a guy with flamin' hair and John Lennon glasses carrying a funky guitar as anything resembling a demigod) isn't present. I think we can both acknowledge that. Sure - partly it's because he isn't reading this extended tome of a discussion thoroughly enough to realize that we mean something far more specific and restrictive. But again, it seems to me that if a word is a barrier to understanding it might be good to work around it. Or maybe I'm trying too hard to get everyone on common ground

Agreed. I don't think anything in M7 is intended to be truly supernatural (supernatural implies outside of nature - even the crazy lights and beams from Basara wouldn't have "Chiba points" or anything else measurable if in the M7 universe it wasn't just another level of physics). Basara was in an extreme stasis - spiritia drain doesn't seem to be so much about physical death as having a reason to live. That's one of the reasons why I didn't list it in my initial battery of mystical allusions. I think the self sacrifice is there, but the allusion is meant to make it poignant, not to make Basara into a Christ figure. Heh, no nails, no cross, no three days in the tomb? Again, I think these allusions are used to help us identify Basara as a holy man, not to equate him with a Messiah. So we agree on both points - no ressurection (in a literal sense anyway) and no "messiah" in M7. These judeo-christian symbolism are probably just used because they are interesting and exotic to a culture accustomed to Shinto and Buddhism and seem to fit well enough to help carry a point. How often do writers make references to Greek and Norse deities without the slightest intent of showing any deference to beings once taken VERY seriously. No, I think Basara is important to the plot, but he's not intended to be THAT colossally important. Part of the point is that someone else could have been Basara if the tried really hard to communicate their heart (heh, Vefidas showed that drums work). I thought I clarified that the term messiah is inappropriate here? At best Basara's a kind of new age holy man. Messiah has too many enormous connotations - in retrospect perhaps my choice of prophet in some of the earlier posts might have been off too. He doesn't know the future, he doesn't have some grand pre-destiny. I think those tropes are used to indicate his place in the picture - that he is a future cultures redefinition of a spiritual truth. Is he special (in more than the short yellow bus sense)? Certainly, or else both the protoculture and the protodeviln wouldn't have a name for what he is. There is spiritual symbolism in M7, enough of it that I think it's hard to sidestep. But you can be spiritual without believing in anything really supernatural. I've met some pretty hard-core atheists that have a very spiritual view of the universe (don't want to make this about religion at all, I'm just trying to illustrate a point). The theory here, at it's most extreme, seems to suggest that all living things have a connection and that in the M7 universe that connection is a literal, quantifiable, physically manifest thing that can be given and taken. A rare person who is uniquely in tune with that is going to appear almost magical. Keep in mind too that Basara is the vehicle for the kind of ultimately almost insanely optimistic world-view that underlies macross. Here empathy is made out to be a physical power that connects all living things; spirituality equated with intense feeling in this universe.

Let me try as best I can to stitch some of this together. I think we all agree that Basara honestly believed that he could touch people hearts, and in doing so put an end to wars and a lot of other nasty things. The anime proves him right, at least within that context. As a whole I suspect we are all starting to part company at the question of spirituality. Keep in mind that the Japanese will view Judeo-Christian symbolism as exotic, and while they use it pretty liberally in Mac7, it doesn't mean that they understand it with quite the same depth that some of us will here in the U.S. When someone describes someone as Messianic, even if one of the definitions is pretty open, it will still carry a lot of baggage - no one wants to imply that Basara is god-like, or that he is so unique that others cannot be like him. He is not "the annointed", a chosen one exactly. He is an example of an untapped human potential - if you will a science and technology of the heart that was neglected with all the technological advancement in Macross. He doesn't need predestination or precognition - if it wasn't the protodeviln it would have been some Zentran or angry colonists - heck maybe a tribe of irate gubaba clones for all we know. All he ever needed to know was that touching hearts could change the world, and that he was capable of it - then his life becomes consumed by that pursuit. If you want, yes, Basara does suffer from some of the dark sides of being a religious zealot as well. Shooting speaker pods into armor is a little bit more intrusive than knocking on doors and handing out flyers - but he's shooting songs at beings shooting REAL BULLETS. Again, if he's a holy man, you could say he's trying to teach by example. Basara is violent - he gets angry, but in his mind there are better ways to fight. He tries very hard to show that, to demonstrate that you can fight a war with absolutely minimal casualties (although even Basara learns that sometimes you do have to do harm to protect others). I think he'd much prefer what we are doing here - hashing out thoughts and feelings while struggling to find common ground. But personally, music isn't the only way to do that, and in that respect Basara is narrow minded. Like any Zealot, the only way he knows is his, and he won't risk other options - but this is understandable, because his way has already been proven to work (Minmei). In some ways it might be more accurate to describe him as a kind of tribal shaman getting people in touch with things they might not understand and may have even forgotten were parts of themselves. Do I think they intended Basara to be seen as a kind of Holy man? Probably, they seem to have used way too many comparisons within the show for it to be coincidental. I think they even have the Television announcers saying he was rumored to have gone to study with some bhuddist master and achieved enlightenment. Keep in mind however that shaman is JUST ONE SOCIAL ROLE. You still have warriors, chieftans, mothers, fathers, the whole communal nine yards. Of course if your the ONLY tribal shaman in a group of warriors and chieftans, you almost have to have a skull made of concrete to have your way. Remember, from his point of view the military has had it's way for a long time and the casualties have piled up. It's hard not to see him as the classic sixties counterculture hippy in that respect - with all the positive and negative baggage that goes with it. He really is an idealist, but often when people realize that there is something wrong with a system they decide they want no part of it whatsoever - which can seem pretty belittling to the good people in the system that are working hard in their own fashion for a better world. You actually need both sides of the equation to make things work - a little social upset and a little force for stability. It's just that things have been at one extreme for a while so Basara overcompensates. But I do see some of Zinjo's point - but I think his point is more political and is one of the reasons some people despise this show - I think he might argue that ANY attempt to manipulate thought (even with good intentions) is evil. By extension a show that tries to force the watcher to accept a point of view, even just within the context of it's universe, is intolerable. I think since Basara is the tool for that agenda within the show, he will REALLY rub some people the wrong way. Well, I've ranted enough for now - I'm still chewing on some of this. You know the really interesting thing is how much you have to dig to understand peoples intentions (the writers of this story for instance) when more than likely a good chunk of it is feeling and instinct that comes out in a certain form - but because its not OUR instinct or feeling you almost have to analyze it like a math problem to get it to work for you sometimes.

I think most of us would spring for something like that. Even if the tread were more expensive because of it's size, if they bundled all the extras we saw in some of the above pictures I think they'd still get snapped up like hotcakes. Lets face it, that beast is something a good number of us have been wanting for years. 1/32 would be a great scale - but we are probably dreaming. But then, there was a time when 1/48 wasn't even really a consideration for a Valkyrie . . . Here's to moments of toy-making insanity (lifts wineglass) - may there be more to come! In any case, it sounds like Mog's "fast-talking, spear-wielding, 'Kupo!'-spouting, occasional martini-drinking, dragoon class avatar will make his triumphant return". I think we can all drink to that.

I have to agree with you on that one. As much as I want to love this I'm just praying it's prototype problems. With arms that just kind of seem to collapse in the back of the jet, legs that look like they are awkwardly folded up under the wings, a frankly disfigured looking chest in soldier mode compounded by wonky shoulders that look even worse in fighter mode it's hard for me to not cringe at this design. What is particularly sad is that it DOES have some fantastic details and the sleeker rounded look that it has applied to a lot of the forms I think WOULD look very nice if the transformation actually fit together in a way that made sense. Well, except for the chest. Heh, I like much more nicely shaped breasts on my Alphas. It's a shame- when I first got my Toycrappy Alpha I thought - wow, this is beautiful, if all the joints were on solid, smoothly moving ratchets instead of just awkwardly attached in ways that never quite move into the positions they are supposed to (and the use of die-cast actually made sense) I would love it. Now we have an edition that looks like it's pretty solid in spots (those kneecap covers look THICK) and may have a superior joint system. But it seems to fall apart just as badly when transformed. Is it that hard to design things to lock into the position they need to be in fighter mode? Is it utterly impossible to build an Alpha that looks modern but has a joint and support system more like the old Gakken's? I can understand if they want to make something very different than toynami's offering - but having inverted problems doesn't seem like a step up to me. I keep praying it's just a bad prototype. Let CM pull this off, PLEASE!

Hmmm, that's certainly a way of looking at it - I just have a hard time believing that in an anime that seems so deliberately constructed that Basara's abilities at that place at that time were intended to be a coincidence. Heh, kind of like in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf points out that evil forces aren't the only things at work, Bilbo must have been intended to have the ring and by extension so is Frodo. As a whole music (and love) in Macross seems to take on a vast, almost holy role. At least it appears that way to me - so many massive catastrophes have been averted because of changes in heart so collossal they almost appear magical (although I'm sure all the people that got wiped out in the Zentraedi annihilation of earth would have loved that change of heart to come sooner). Sure, it may be a happy coincidence, but so many happy coincidences occured (spilling a mix of human and Zentraedi blood close enough to the Protoculture relic to get it to open up for them for example) that it's hard not to see it as either a grander plan, or simply an allegory. Of course if Macross 7 is an allegory then coincidence almost has to be thrown out the window because even the coincidences are likely to reflect a meaning. That and it's interesting that Basara gets a title - he didn't really have to be called anything like "Anima Spiritia" - his effect could have simply worked and confused the daylights out of the protodeviln. It seems like the writers intended Basara to be extremely significant, and not just to the ship he is living on. Although calling him a messiah might be a bit of a stretch, a kind of metaphorical prophet maybe, but that's about as far as it goes in my eyes anyway. But let's face it, later on he touches the heart of a space whale and a macronized Zentraedi - their has to be some intention to make Basara's repetitive singing a pretty cosmic power because it would be so easy for the writers to let him get humiliated and nearly destroyed. One stray missile, or one protodeviln that just reaally hated Planet Dance and Basara would learn his lesson pretty quickly. Okay, it might take multiple - he's just that hard headed, but I think even he would figure it out after failing miserably and almost dying a few times. Instead his tactics always end up working - even on the stubborn humans on M7 who really don't want to listen initially. That has to be in the agenda of the writers - again, it would be easy to make him fail on the people around him so that the issue of the protodeviln just looks like a lucky fluke. Although I definately agree that Basara is not the perfect hero - he sometimes loses his temper, he has to struggle to live up to his own ideals and fails from time to time. They made him human. But things just work out too well and too consistently in a fashion that supports a very specific agenda. Of course maybe I'm just projecting, but it seems awfully tight in that regard - something that's supposed to look like coincidence has to have more chaos in the workings. Maybe it's there, but I don't see it.

Thanks! I tried to step away from my personal reaction to the character and think - hmmm, as a writer, why would I make him behave in this way? When I started thinking about what little I know of Japanese culture (and just mythic symbolism) it started to make a little more sense. Basara is a very loaded character, and I think he's meant to be. The Anime itself supports him and the philosophy he represents. If you buy into the logic of the Anime he's pretty selfless (after all, if he really is "spiritually enlightened" then he doesn't HAVE to know that the protodeviln will show up. He just has to believe that if they encounter anything out there while exploring space, he will be able to move it's heart) if not, well he's a delusional prick. Not much wiggle room there. It definitely forces people to decide what they believe.

I've read about that teaching technique - it makes so much sense. After all, I know enough about memory to realize that you are going to have a much easier time remembering a concept that you were involved in constructing - active learning tends to work much better than simple regurgitation. Besides, the more neural pathways that were used to engage a concept, the more easily it can be used and adjusted for different circumstances. If a concept is just given to you as a rule, it's harder to understand just how and where else that concept will be useful, particularly in situations that appear radically different. Not to shoot to far onto a tangent though. Really, I think it illustrates part of the difference between KNOWING something and really UNDERSTANDING it in a deeper sense. I was originally thinking of koans (hope that doesn't illustrate my "I know just enough about these things to put a foot in my mouth" stage of education), but that attitude does kind of explain why Basara doesn't just tell anyone "this is what I'm doing and why". If they don't "get it", then just talking at them probably isn't going to help. He wants them to "discover" whatever spiritual awakening he had. Not that I don't think Macross 7 handles some of this in an almost embarrassingly awkward fashion, but some of the underlying concepts are surprisingly ambitious. Or perhaps it's just a reflection of why its acceptable for a hero to behave that way in a Japanese cartoon, whereas in the U.S. he would come of as a real wacko. Heh, you learn a lot about people in the way the react to his character too, which is probably one of the things I find most interesting about all of this. That and I suspect that if the Sound Force Valks had avoided the Glam Rock look and the Protodeviln were portrayed in a way that was actually frightening, it would have been a lot easier to enjoy - but again, some of this might be cultural as well. The styles of modern American Rock have as a whole rejected that look, so what makes us cringe might have seemed like something a Rock and Roll Star would do with his personal plane in Japan. Haven't we had celebrities with bright pink limos with gold rims? I'd like to say the same might apply to the Protodeviln, but from what little I know of Japanese mythology and themes, they don't seem like they much apply. It's funny how the more you look at a piece of another persons creation, you end up discovering elements of yourself in the interpretation. And elements of the other people discussing it of course.

Perhaps the problem is the choice of terms - but it is easy to see parallels to prophets in the desert and wandering brahmins to Basara. There is also a pretty big divide between what I think the writers intended for this character and how some audiences are taking it. For better or for worse Basara is a vehicle for a spiritual philosophy that turns out to be true within the universe he inhabits. Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations. So as a "prophet" with some pretty obvious allusions in the anime - whether his time in the desert or trying to make a mountain "uproot itself and be planted in the sea" Basara WILL be driven by his "deity" (so to speak) to behave in ways that other people not only will have problems understanding but may be threatened by. Heh, prophets are also notorious for being kind of forceful about their ideas, particularly in the western tradition. At least Basara doesn't seem to want to present destruction as the only alternative to listening to his singing (although some people might prefer it!). Within the Universe that the writers constructed, Basara turns out to be right and his actions are vindicated, but that's the rather shockingly positive universe of Macross. After all, it has always hinged around hearts winning out over guns (especially if those hearts are willing to wield guns in their defense). Unfortunately it's hard not to project that on our world and that will cause some pretty disparate reactions. If on some level you believe that there is some universal sense of compassion that can be tapped into that has the power to end war and murder than Basara's technique seems justified. On the other hand, if a person believes that there IS such a thing as real evil, or that some people or beings are just utterly incapable of compassion, then Basara is a starry eyed idiot that teaches his audience to sing and smile and let the genocidal maniacs just plow them over. Heh, I had a pretty good rant on the page just before, but as always I was the last one so it disappeared. Oh well. I'll try not to bore you two gentleman too much. However, I have to admit, this IS an interesting discussion. The writers had to have done something right to create a character that is capable of sustaining this much controversy and debate.

Forgive the long rant, but I just have to respond to this. I just finished watching Macross 7 myself. Valkyries with boobs and giant organic creatures flying through space against glowing singers did make me cringe, but at the same time, I found some elements pretty interesting. Heh, if nothing else I have to give props to any character that can provoke this much discussion and debate, that certainly makes him more "real" in some ways than most. Just my take on Basara - he made me think of the concept of a koan (stories, often seemingly absurd, that attempt to teach a spiritual truth by asking the listenener to experience what the teller has). I think that the reason Basara was interesting enough to the writers to put together a lengthy series with him at its center is that Basara came across a spiritual truth (true at least within the confines of the show) in music. He doesn't want to just tell people "Hey, peace man - war, it's just like wrong and stuff. Let's go smoke this joint together". He thinks if he can force people to listen to music that has in its core the feeling that he's been clinging to, eventually they will not simply agree to his philosophy, they will change inside emotionally and spiritually. That's why when he approaches someone in the streets he doesn't say "Hey, I lead this great band, come and listen" - he SINGS like a crack-head in the shower. Basara doesn't want people to agree with him intellectually or philosophically, he wants them to FEEL whatever it is that told him that passion and love is so important that nothing else - including flying missiles that could end his singing career in a heartbeat- is important. He believes that feeling will make people simply not want to hurt each other. I suspect that yes, the writers intended him to come off as a steadfast and dedicated pseudo-prophet. While I can see how it can be interpreted as selfish, I don't think that's the interpretation the creators were aiming at - although I think they'd be perfectly happy with the idea that he seems selfish until you get what he's up to. Of course, you could also interpret what he's up to as woefully misguided - after all, this "spirituality" assumes that there is no such thing as a being that really is pure evil, or beyond the capacity for compassion or at least empathy. If the Macross universe wasn't in it's heart of hearts almost insanely optimistic, Basara would just be singing himself and a whole lot of other people into oblivion. I think a lot of people instinctively get that and have a feeling that if people absorbed Basara's attitude they'd just smile and sing while some genocidal maniac wipes out the planet. They will absolutely hate this character, no matter how much sense he makes in his own universe. On the other hand there are people who really believe that if you can somehow make everyone feel compassion for each other, then maybe war and murder and all the man made terrors of the earth have a chance of vanishing. These people I think will instinctively like Basara, even if they don't quite get him. As a bit of a writer myself, I'm interested in the intent of the character within the world that was made for him. He's flawed enough to be human, complicated enough to make you think about him later on, and I think he works very well as a vehicle for writers beliefs. Basara can only really be selfish if his understanding is WRONG. If it's RIGHT and everything he does is guided by the feelings that eventually manifest themselves in these funky spiritia weapons, its not that much different than a prophet being guided by whatever diety inspires him - and as long as he is true to that (I suspect THAT is supposed to be the feeling or "spirit" that underlies the music, not just the music itself, which is probably why he doesn't use traditional notation or need to practice around others. Basara needs, instead, to stay in tune with his "god" internally - which may require him to abandon everyone else for his forty days in the desert, again a very common prophetic trope) he may actually be seen as somewhat self-less. Well, I'm done taking up space for now - does this seem like a fairly accurate analysis? (Heh, this is Macrossworld, I'm sure I'm inviting some pretty savage dissections which I'm sure will be interesting.)

Not to sound snotty, but has anyone played around with making some fixed pose hands that actually fit in the forearm cavity of the valkyrie? I can't help looking at both the mickeymouse gloves and the terminator hands and thinking there should be some kind of feasible compromise - especially if you either nix or greatly simplify the movable fingers. Oh well, Rhoby probably has enough issues on his table - but still. Those hands. My beautiful 1/48. It just seems so wrong somehow

Super poseable but really really costly Usually very high maintenance as well . Graham However, keep in mind they come equipped with a legioss style docking ability and a great deal of sensory stimulation equipment. "Girls" are actually an excellent buy - if you have the money. But since I'm broke I stay home and play with my toys.

I don't know. Considering Graham is kinda saying he IS Minmay's underwear he might be in a reasonably enviable position. So Graham, are you the tops or the bottoms? It does kinda suck to be us right now doesn't it? Grahams maniacal laughter actually makes me a little sad, it's like his Macross love is so thoroughly unrequited it's driven him over the edge. Yamato stabbed him in the back, Kamawori hasn't given him a new series yet, and now even the half hearted enthusiasm he had for 0 seems to be biting the dust. On the upside when we hear on the news that Graham has Kamawori, and the CEO's of Yamato, Bandai, and HG hogtied in a pile of hippopotamus fecal matter in his basement things might just turn REEEAAAAL exciting on this site.

Like I said, I needed to rant - and I managed to go so long without raging once not once about HG. That deserves a little credit at least If you would like, next time I'll do it in rhyming iambic pentameter and break it into stanzas.

I agree with most of what's mentioned above. I find the choice of transformers the movie as a mainstream comparison interesting because almost every review I've seen of it labels it as a pretentious pile of overhyped consumer drivel without even the redeeming cheese value of some other complete bombs (and I loved that movie as a kid). It's interesting that Disney is a massive corportate powerhouse capable of churning out T-shirts, toys, sporting goods and underwear with their trademarked figures without the artistic nature of their movies being questioned by the majority of the population (notice I say majority, I think most of us know better), but if a piece of animation that most of the American population associate with a toy is put out, it will be viewed through a cynical screen of media hype. Most people I know respond one of three ways when they see a screen from Macross: either its Oh, it's like Voltron or, Isn't that that transformer (that transformer being Jetfire) or cool, isn't that from that old eighties show robo-whatchamacallit? All are toy associations, all are kid associations, and all are in most peoples minds dated anomalies - the bizzare trivia that people recognize only after the answer has already been given. To compound this problem, Anime has a very different manner of storytelling than most people in America are used to. Just as a TV show the Macross saga of Robotech bored and stupefied most people I knew because in most American cartoons each episode is a fully enclosed story hinging on some kind of immediately recognizable plot device (Megatron devises plan X to accomplish goal A and the Autobots must do Y to prevent B). Much of Macross is character interaction and not every episode culminates in a battle, much less the one one one black and white confrontations in most american cartoons. Anime also operates with a number of predispositions that Americans have a difficult time swallowing - lets face it, Misa is an interesting character, but most people I know who've seen Anime get red in the face when they hear the twittering high pitched and frantic portrayals often attatched to anime women. Bring J-Rock into it and it becomes absurd to most people (I'll admit, even understanding the nature of culture shock within Macross, there's something a little painful about watching a somewhat pre-pubescent looking girl in a sailorsuit singing an alien menace into submission in the middle of a fantastic looking space battle. When I showed Macross to my best friend at the time, he covered his face going "Oh my God, that is so bad, and I thought american romantic comedies were cheesy". Once he understood the concept, he recognized it was interesting but immediately added that it was done very very poorly. Now some of this is cultural- Amy Tan once said that Americans take very little seriously and the East takes everything seriously, and something that is dramatic in the east can appear like bad comedy in the west. We are inundated by cliches, hammy lines, and melodrama all the time - after all, the entertainment INDUSTRY is huge and loves to stick to any form that works repeatedly. Strangely enough the sheer weight of some of the things Macross deals with makes many people even MORE judgemental when something seems awkward, cliche, or just plain absurd. Add to this the fact that cartoons are viewed as either family fairy tales or extended commercials and an attempt at a serious cartoon is going to be put under the strictest scrutiny. American audiences are also suprisingly easily embarassed - it's okay for the Brits to sing the lumberjack song in a comedy, but if an alien is confused by who should and shouldn't wear a dress in a serious cartoon people want to turn red and hide (especially since children and or their girlfriend might be watching). Pile on top of that the fact that Anime visual style is extremely divisive just on its own. Some people see it as elegant, dynamic and fresh. Others say things like "Why do the guys look like chicks and the chicks look like gradeschoolers with boobs? What's with the stupid spiky blue hair, and the huge f*#!ing eyes? Why doesn't anyone have a nose? Why do people sometimes turn into amorphous squirting blobs instead of just having a tantrum? In short (and I apologize this is so long, but I felt the need to rant) for Macross to succeed in the U.S. not only will it require the kind of marketing strategies, social support, and right place at the right zeitgeist kind of luck mentioned earlier, but it would have to be reconstructed for an american market. Do I think it's possible for an Anime movie to simultaneously be edgy, have some depth and make an impact on the american population: under the right circumstances, yes. But it would have to recognize and minimize many of the things that alienate most of the american viewing populace, ratchet up the amount of action while simultaneously slowing it enough to get the audience involved, hone the "moral" of the story into something far more (as much as this shocks me to say about any kind of movie in america) subtly applied. In short, in many ways, it wouldn't be the macross we all know and love. Would I still love to see it remade in this way? Hell yes, I think it would change the face of animation in this country - is it gonna happen? Right after I win that snowball fight with Lucifer.

Sorry about the double post - when I hit submit the screen turned into "Server not found" so I thought it didn't go through Of course if anyone is willing to delete the second . . .

I agree. The 19 should look sexy in any form, not just jet and gerwalk - and I really think that even if you can't fully replicate anime magic, you can still have something that is aesthetically pleasing and true to the spirit of it. Actually the Liquid Stone 1/100 does a pretty good job of shortening the trunk (like I said before, just a couple of sliders on the joints and you could probably lock those sections even closer together) - while the Hasegawa mods above do a much better job on the upper body detail. Just slide the legs up along the sides and the proportions all start to fall together. I think if they use a mold at a decent size and combine the best of these molds it will KICK A$$.

I agree. The 19 should look sexy in any form, not just jet and gerwalk - and I really think that even if you can't fully replicate anime magic, you can still have something that is aesthetically pleasing and true to the spirit of it. Actually the Liquid Stone 1/100 does a pretty good job of shortening the trunk (like I said before, just a couple of sliders on the joints and you could probably lock those sections even closer together) - while the Hasegawa mods above do a much better job on the upper body detail. Just slide the legs up along the sides and the proportions all start to fall together. I think if they use a mold at a decent size and combine the best of these molds it will KICK A$$.

Two out of three aint bad! Although . . . . theres still potential for better. Studying the design a little bit, I'd say on a larger scale you could include sliders within the shoulder pieces to bring them closer to the body, as well as within the lower arms to straighten out that awkward elbow hinge. Similarly, looking at the transformation and the extra hinge involved to collapse the torso on a 1/100 scale, I can't help but think that sliders within that hinge to bring the body sections into closer contact would give the torso that somewhat beefier look of the anime. Of course the only problem with the backpack is the molding. This little number just makes me believe that while it is impossible to replicate "anime magic" on a larger scale (say around 1/60) it would be possible to make this sucker look damn good in every mode. After all, at this little scale Liquid Stone managed to fix a problem that plagued every other previous mold - getting the "crotch" plate to fold flush and still have space for landing gear. Of course all these folding hinges could be delicate - I tend to imagine something along the lines of a die-cast skeleton with all the moving joints and hinges lofted with an abs plastic superstructure that hides all the metal. Any of you CAD modellers out there willing to whip up a few designs and show Yamato how this son of a b*tch should be done?

Well, part of the problem of picking up scales from the cartoon is that the creators deliberately altered the dimensions for "psychological effect" I wish I could find the article, but from what I read the reason the animators made Megatron so small compared to the autobots in the ark was because they wanted to emphasize the monumental nature of the Autobots historically. I thought this was a little silly myself - especially since part of the appeal of CG is the comparitive realism and geomentric regularity in contrast to most traditional cell animation. In my mind, the only way this would have worked is if they made the scene a little more surreal and added a commentary to help us realize that Megatron, despite his arrogance, is still in awe of these legendary figures.

Sorry - I responded after reading the first few pages - I should have finished the thread (ducks while fellow MWers beat him upside the head).

Um, is this a trick question? Because as far as I know there has been a custom gallery in the toys section of the main page for a while. Do you mean as a pinned topic in the forums? I just double checked it to make sure I haven't lost my mind - it is there (though I'm sure it needs expansion). Graham always wondered in his sig whether or not anyone checks the main page anymore - I think we just failed the test.

They aren't my graphs. I stole them from earlier on the thread. Woohoo - yes I'm in college and I'm a valkaholic with no money. It makes you do strange strange things.