Noyhauser

the Invader I think is the only man in head design of all the Valks. I REALLY liked the YF-21 head. I think it really went along well with its design, utilizing different sensors because of its control systems. I think the 22's head was a definate downgrade. And the VT-1 was interesting as well. I think the VF-9 and 14 could have better heads, they would be my choice for the worst. the VF-9's head was the only thing I didn't like about the design. The Soundforce ones I didn't mind because they made sense given their intent.

(not that I will be going) Somebody totally should. Thats the thing I love about Hasegawa, and what it has done for Macross. I think its really brought it into the view of more traditional aircraft modelers who might not be interested in anime, but are looking for something different to build... when they can get their hands on the merchandise. The Macross series is arguably Hasegawa's finest 1/72 line right now (with the exception of their new two engined WW2 line). A year ago I showed an Unbuilt YF-21 to an vetran aircraft modeler who I was friends with, and he was extremely impressed by it. This was a guy who was in his late 50s who had never watched an anime in his life, but he loved the quality and the feel of the design.

Exactly I don't think SDF had the same "dramatic conclusion" to the love triangle as DYRL (hell DYRL pulled out the SLOW MO for it...), but that was wholly because we knew that Misa and hikaru had such a deep relationship because of SDF. On its own there wasn't the same buildup of emotions, like the whole Misa cleaning up Hikaru's apartment scene, or Minmay's perfume. These things made it all the more deeper. Maybe if you read almost every other person's post on here, you'll see that its not the fact that DYRL is "different" that bothers people, it is the fact that it is dependent upon to TV series to give it depth and understanding. As a stand alone piece it is not as great a movie as it is with the foreknowledge of the TV series. Also don't make vague assumptions that I'm or others maintain a biased TV-fan POV; thats been mine and most other people's point the whole way along. I don't know where you got the idea in your head that we worship it as the be all and end all. Realistically speaking, DYRL is just visual eyecandy for macross fans. Thats what Kawamori intended it to be, because he was unhappy about the budget he had for the TV series. I can't see how you can argue that a movie has a better storyline and character development than a TV series, especially a Japanese TV series at that (which focus more on storytelling than syndication). You don't get accustomed to characters after a short 15 minute scene, as you do over a 15 episode arc. The TV series gave the events of DYRL gravity and enhanced its meaning greatly. Thats a complete distortion of the reality, which you are trying to do to prove your point. The history of SDF and DYRL are completely intertwineded because THEY DESCRIBE THE SAME EVENTS WITH THE SAME CHARACTERS. while one does in a TV series, the other one tries to cram it all into a 2 hour movie. For the others, the links are far less tenuous. Plus and Zero only use minor plot elements from the others. Is it vital that you knew that the Macross was a famous battleship that won a war 40 years ago? Not really. It only shows up in the final episode, and its centrality to the story (ie without knowing its history your understanding of the story would be significantly impared) is minimal. Its completely not like the Ghost, or Sharon, who are the primary antagonists that were introduced throughout the movie/oav. What links are there between SDF and Zero that require you to know about the other, when zero is a prequel? Oh we got new technology from it? Actually I think watchers need to see macross 7 more to understand Macross zero than they do the TV series. Actually I did. Macross was one of the first series I ever watched, because I had family members sending me these tapes on beta. And I know from the people I have spoken to in Japan that it had a major impact. It is still highly regarded as an excellent piece of animation, poor flaws at all.

I'm sorry treatment, but I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you have said these last two pages. Almost everybody on here even me AND Agent one (shocking!) agree that DYRL did not do a great job on story. If anything its pacing was completely off. As I said earlier in this thread, to me Anime is a medium to tell a story, and I'd rather watch piss poor animation with a great story than amazing animation with terrible storytelling. Maybe you enjoy it for its superficiality but I don't. My favorite series is Heldensagen Vom Kosmenief, and its got some poor animation going for it. However its absolutely brilliant as a story, and I appreciate it on those grounds. And SDF as well. However in all honesty, DYRL would not have the same allure if it was not preceeded by SDF. Take for example Misa. Hikaru's choice in SDF makes WAAAAAAAY more sense then it does in DYRL to go with Misa. In DYRL, shes a cold hearted Bxtch most of the movie, then for 30 seconds shows vulnerablilty and hooks up with Hikaru. And from this He bases his "deep love" for her over Minmay? Uhhh yeah. In the movie, Minmay is a far more mature girl, who makes her feelings for Hikaru clear and treats him with affection. In SDF Minmay is really a immature dithering girl that can't make up her mind. We really get a sense of that. Hikaru who is also immature at the beggining of the movie likes her. But as he gets older he falls more and more for misa (and goes through several important experiences with her.) Then Hikaru falls back on his old ways after the space war... but makes the right choice at the end. It makes far more sense in SDF than DYRL. Every other part of the story makes far more sense in SDF. Claudia's relationship with Roy, Max's relationship with Millia. (Wow she's a 60 foot tall chick with green hair that tried to kill me... OMG I MUST HAVE HER), the series of events (why did they annahilate earth?). The proof to me was when I showed my friend DYRL and he was like... huh? He then watched SDF after and was like... ahhhh I get it. Yeah Max was sooooo dependant on Minmay and hikaru to get married. And Roy's and Kazikazi death all had to do with their relationship, oh and Boldolza blew up earth because he couldn't have minmay moreover they are the MAIN CHARACTERS. This isn't War and Peace that has a cast of millions. Of course they are going to focus on them I can't even begin to tell you what an ignorant statement that is. Compared to other series of the day, Macross blew others out of the water. Even the vaunted Gundam series had terrible animation and lulls, and it STILL is regarded as a classic. Macross attempts to inject a sense of realism (compared to Gundam which was compeletely unrealistic) was extremely well recieved, as was its somewhat gritty portrail of war. Almost all Japanese anime series today use elements of its production, hell next gundam (Zeta) pretty well copied the whole transformable robot idea. The love triange was a huge aspect of its popularity as well. By your definition, the Seven Samurai, is really just a sub average movie because everybody have developed better filming and storytelling techniques since 1954, and have ripped off the story and made it better since then You may not like SDF, fine thats your opinion. but disregarding the influence that it had is just willful ignorance, if you ask me.

Yeah I'd agree with you there.. Just that DYRL has..... sentimental value. Its story now doesn't speak to me like any of the other series, its animation is great, likely the second best of the series but thats it. I'd disagree about Plus on one point. There was one character I loved, and that was guld, especially after his death (not in that way). The first time I saw him I thought he was one of the most arrogant characters, but afterwards I got a completely new appreciation of him. He was such a tragic character. I would say maybe the most deepest in all of macross. Maybe it wasn't so much character development as that you see him from a completely new light at the climax.

Thanks, I didn't mean that as a sleight against you at all ewilien. Just that most people come in and say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I don't think its really a fair question. I watched DYRL when I was 6 years old. It shaped my imagination in ways that most people couldn't understand (well maybe some of you can ). My favorite toy was a Bandai Super Deformed Hikaru VF-1. My views are tainted in that way. To be honest? Some aspects of M-0 that I like better, especially the realism aspect of VFs. To me now, I can understand how VFs work and how they fight compared to our modern fighters. I really couldn't do that at all before hand. As I said earlier, the helmet mounted sight they use actually is a derivative of the bleeding edge research that one of my best friend carries out. That makes it real. As an overall movie though, I like DYRL better (not by so much though). DYRL is a bit rushed to me, and it has some problems. The TV continuity makes more sense. However, that was never my point of my first post. I don't think Macross zero a bad movie or even close to one, I can see why people think so, but that because you EXPECT it to be a certain way. That was what I was getting at, not that DYRL or M-0 was better or worse. (sorry for editing everything, I'm just terrible at editing before I post)

oh I don't either, I've been saying the same thing for the last year and people still don't agree with me, nor would I expect people to. I just try to explain what I see from the knowledge that I have. Whether or not one agree with my view is completely up to them

Actually Alpha what I think is the question isn't the technology, but how the aliens use the technology Look at it this way, question why advanced alien culture has to follow human norms. For example, almost all science fiction products dismiss the question of religion. They think it to be something that is of a primeval past that will be discarded in the future, and thats wrong. Actually I call it startrek syndrome, where aliens are percieved to have cultures that resemble our own. It was a standing rule in startrek by gene rodennberry to have aliens that resemble humaniods, and act like them too. So when people watch something like Macross zero, they are like, WTF?!?!? why would the protoculture, such and advanced race make floating stones? I ask you know whats so wrong with the Protoculture culture maintaning some elements of mysticism? Is is so abhorrent to think that they will retain or use symbolism in their advanced state? I think in actuality it is realistic. It might be how their culture is organized.

I also don't see how you can compare the how much you like a character from a whole TV show and compare it to one of a 2 hour movie. I think if you wanted to compare something, watch DYRL ONLY, and then compare if you like Hikaru more than Shin. Do you really think that DYRL Hikaru is more developed than M-Zero Shin, or M+ guld? Actually I think he's less developed than most of these characters. ooooooh good one, hey let me try! Good on you for coming onto a web message board to talk about a 25 year old cartoon that features fighter planes in space that transform into robots and fight 60 foot tall aliens that get scared of their erection when they see girl sing a song. You've really proved your point haven't you?

I wrote the same thing about 6 months ago. Nobody really cared then, and nobody really cares now. edit... it was almost a year ago now when I first made that post. where has the time gone? http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...t=0entry71940

Ummm, what??? I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen. The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs. rol! You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero. Since when does animation make a series great? If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross. I would tend to agree with this comment. The best Japanese animations in my mind are Hegensagen Vom Kosmenief and Grave of Firefiles, and neither feature groundbreaking animiation, and at some times comes off shabbily compared to contemporaries. However both use the medium in a way to express their stories. Hegensagen would not be able to be done even today as a live action piece (because it relies so heavily on the fleet action scale). Animation technique (after watching Anime for most of my life) means little to me compared to the story. Sometimes its nice to see a well done anime, but if its got a terrible storyline, I'll shut it off within minutes. Conversely, if an anime is not well rendered, but has a wicked wicked plot and the sort, then I'll watch it through.

Honestly thats your interpretation of what Macross is, sorry to say you aren't Kawamori. I would say that the reason why macross plus is so different is that it wasn't ever intended to be a macross story at all, it was supposed to be of advanced air cavalry chronicles (or whatever he wanted to call it) to be made made after DYRL. The series would have nothing to do with macross. This is a direct quote of Kawamori found here: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm Thats exactly what SDF macross was, a synthesis of music characters ect, NOT just the valkyries. He later decided to use the Macross universe to tell the Advance Valkyrie story, however macross plus does not fit the pattern of the rest of the stories. Remove it, and you see a definate pattern between SDF, Macross 7, and Macross zero, going back to my original post months ago about japanese pacifism and the need for alternatives to war. I'm sorry that you don't get that, you might have a view on what Macross is about, but its wrong, and likely does not follow Kawamori's view. If you don't like it, tough, stop watching and groaning about it. This forum is littered with the detritus of countless Macross 7 threads that have explained it again and again. And still people persist in saying, Oh well its nothing like SDF macross. Hello, maybe thats because what you think SDF macross is, isnt what it was intended to be by Kawamori. I can think of countless famous pieces of literature that have been misintrepreted by scholars to mean one thing, when the author really meant something else, that get illuminated by later pieces of work. Macross Zero only cemented the themes that Kawamori wanted to present. I think it is quite clear what Kawamori is getting at now after these three series have been put out there. edited for clarity and typos

Honestly the flying rock thing and AFOS argument is pissing me off. if you can believe that human technology can make this float then you can sure as hell believe that the protoculture (A race far far far more advance than humans) can make a few rocks float around in a jungle. its just that simple.

ahh that looks much better, thanks ewilian! I was thinking about that thread actually. The compendium does list a take off weight for the VF-1, and I think its a ground take off weight for a fully loaded atmospheric role. It just goes to show how much #@@ the VF-1 could have wrought if it was deployed in the conflict. Who needs boosters when you already have 3:1 power to weight ratios?

I've got the same translation, and it definately says that the UN took the information from Anti-UN. Nora: "its just the transformation system they stole from us..." DD "From their "united" perspective, they didn't steal it from us, all states, regardless..." To me it sounds like its correct as well, but its too complex a sentence for me to be sure. I'll go ask a japanese friend if she agrees with it as well.

I was referring to DD's and Nora's comment in episode 2 where she said that the UN spacy stole it from them, then DD says, from their united perspective, its not stealing. Maybe the fansubs got it wrong (which isn't the first time) but from listening to it, it seems to me that they are correct. Moreover, DD could have stolen the VF-1's prototype data, while the UN spacy stole the transformation data before it.

To get away from LV's ideas, i'd like to posit a more realistic vision for a humanoid type military combat vehicle. There is a game made by Dream Pod 9, called heavy Gear, which took a lot of influence from Armored trooper Votoms (not even close to what Fasa did with macross though). They presented a far more realistic vision of how bipedaled walker techology might be applied to warfare. It was a bit sci-fi ish, although we had ALOT of Mil, and Ex mil types who really kept the idea real. Using the statistics provided by DP9 for their capabilities we developed what I would consider realistic combat doctrine for these vehicles. Humanoid form was more for modularity in weapons, and adaptability for combat situations, allowing Gears to be jack of all trades sort of units. On flat ground they were demolished by tanks, and in streets, infantry had advantages over them. They were most useful on broken up terrain, where tanks were unsuitable (forests, cities, badlands ect). They viewed to be more mobile as well. However they were cheap enough to be massed produced on a scale tanks couldn't. They used gas engines (actually a new type called V-engines which is an actual design), had far less armor than tanks, used rollers under their legs to gain more efficiency for long distances, and were pretty down to earth designs. Their armor was weaker because the humanoid shape creates shot traps for incoming rounds, and prevents the application of a uniform shape for armor (like tanks do, look at the soviet T series) Heavy gear's designs were realistic given the technological advancements they assumed would occur (the ability to cheaply build these vehicles would be the most contentious). And without those assumptions, it would be difficult to imagine why you would want to design such a complex piece of machinery. I would say that for the most part, the Idea of a humaniod combat vehicle resides on the fiction side of science fiction However DP9 started to get away from this, and what I would call anime munchkinism set in. It also neglected the line by some poor decisions. I've kinda parted ways from Heavy gear, its nolonger the game I loved for so long.

My apologies, I should have made that distinction. I was talking about the ghost booster modification, because you are completely right, the actual FPs were more like the VF-19's designed to create more loadout options for the fighter in an atmosphere. Although I'd still say the VF-0 was underpowered, definately compared to the VF-1. If I'm calculating this correctly, the VF-0 doesn't even have a 1:1 thrust ratio... its engine thrust with afterburners is around 15,000Kg (I've calculated it from the Kn rating they give on the compendium, Im not a math major so take that with a grain of salt), and it weighs around 16,000kg empty... in reality, it shouldn't be even able to hover in Gerwalk or Battroid with those sort of statistics (so that probably means I've made an error). The VF-1 has a take off weight of 18,000 Kg, and an overthrust capability of 23,000kg. Still I think the VF-0 was seen to be an evolutionary step, so that pilots could get some experience in variable combat and to provide some combat data on the design. Also it could have been a stop gap design to combat a coming Anti-UN threat. They got the designs for the transformation sequence from the Anti-un so they knew something was coming. If the UN-Spacy forsaw that the complexity of the Thermonuclear engine would not be solved for quite some time, they likely opted to produce a second fighter from the original design (much like the Superhornet from the legacy) to fill all these roles.

well I can see perfectly valid technical reasons. Most Fast Packs are designed for space use, where the design requirements for vehicles are quite different than for atmospheric vehicles. They Allowed fighters to carry more weapons, additional reaction mass (something that Valks were not designed to carry very much of) ect. Remember the VF-1s were first and foremost designed as atmospheric fighters (why build wings at all if you don't plan to fly in the atmosphere). Fast packs just make them more effective space fighters. As for the VF-19's atmospheric fastpacks, these are designed to allow the fighters to carry more weaponry, without having to deal with the problem of decrease in perfomance. Instead of having wings loaded with massive ammounts of missiles, that just sit there until launch, these fast packs counteract some of the drag by providing more thrust. this is likely at the expense of manuverability, which is a trade off that a pilot must chose between. The VF-0's fast packs probably existed for a differentreason. Since it was a prototype of a fighter that was supposed to have a far more power engine (well the same power, half the volume of the VF-0's EGF conventional engine), while the airframe was half the volume as well, the VF-0 was likely thought to be underpowered. Given the time constraints in its construction, the VF-0 deficiencies were appareant and therefore in the absence of a major redesign, or a new engine (which was unlikely, since it seems that the EGF engine was the last conventional engine, before Thermonuclear were deployed), rockets were bolted on in order to increase its emergency thrust. (edited for typos and clarity)

don't be so sure about that. People have been predicting that such and such weapon advance will make such and such obsolete. And still developers have come up with varying ways of countering new "wonder weapons." Tanks were predicted to be obsolete by the 1970s because of advances in guided missile technology, and today they still are around. Furthermore we have British AFV prototypes that use electromagnetic fields that can defeat HEAT warheads. Those two technologies you listed have major power issues that make it very unlikely that we will ever see them on the battlefield in the near future.

I might have had a good reply for low viz lurker's post, had it not been 2 pages long, and coherent in its thoughts. As is, its as impenetrable a post as I have ever seen.

I went as Kim Jong Il last year, I grew my hair for a month into a poof, bought a military green jump suit from an army surplus store, as well as a pair of really bad aviator glasses. Spitting image. Now Im in Wales, and I guess they don't value halloween as we do.

Having not seen episode five... and always being the kid who opened his christmas presents early I wanted to put in one point. One thing I like about Zero, is that it made Macross MORE believable. I mean there was far more explaination of baseline technologies than any other series. Stuff like tolerences for changing modes, energy armor, and helmet mounted sights grounded the universe on harder technological grounds, than any other of the series. The helmet mounted sights struck me particularly because my friend is in the cutting edge of this field in science, and to have kawamori use it made it extremely believable. Watching a F-14 easily getting trashed by a SV-51 by its versatility just made it all the more so. I also have the suspicion that it also bridges the gap between Macross 7 and SDF and Plus. People often just don't get how all the series are so different, and I think zero might try to explain it. I'm not too sure about it but once I have watched episode 5 i'll see what I think then.

Those cones are about as useful and stylish as the tailfins of a 1959 cadillac