edwin3060

VF-25G: So we have official notice that it is a solid slug rather than something else. That margin of error is insane though, implying that either the slug has in-flight correction mechanisms, or the flight time is very short (i.e. slug is travelling at relativistic speeds). Seems to be the latter. RVF-25: "search operations are possible at the speed of light"-- no poo (Normal, Earthly) Radar works at the speed of light as well. Sounds cool though. Prototype test flight: Some meat for a possible manga side story? Maybe thats why they changed it. Battroid height: Looks like they took the Bandai 1/60 for real? If you move the hip parts up in the Battroid mode, it would get shorter, afterall-- albeit with a bigger apparent crotch

In fact, all modern American fighters have trade-offs in some areas. The F-16 and the F-18 both have lower top speeds than the Vietnam era F-4 Phantom, they traded top speed for transonic/subsonic maneuverability. Heck, even the Typhoon is slower than the F-4 Phantom, and slower than the F-15 as well. Does that mean that they are worse combat aircraft? Not at all! Similarly, like David Hingten has mentioned, the VF-25 may be less maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 derivatives but it is still a better combat aircraft more suited to the masses. All we are saying is that maneuverability is an area where some sacrifice was made in order to advance the design in other ways...is that so hard to accept? Hobbes221: Good points, but the +60/-45 Gs was for the VF-22, an operational special forces aircraft-- not a test machine. If the SuperNova competition showed that the +32.5/-17.2 G limits of the YF-21 were more than the pilot could handle, why double that for the VF-22? The -25 is probably better in overall combat ability, but that comes from its customisability and the insane number of missiles it can carry while retaining the same performance-- however to do so it had to sacrifice agility. I'm simply glad to revitalize the tech thread

Because not all pilots in G suits can handle such high Gs? I've already stated that I'm not arguing for the 99% percentile case. I have no problems with the statement that the VF-25 is better for most pilots in terms of maneuverability. Mr March: You are confusing thrust and acceleration. The VF-25 having a thrust to (empty)weight ratio of 38.8 while a G limit of only 29.5 makes it possible for the Amoured pack to accelerate as fast as the clean VF-25--- basically the clean VF-25 has wayyy more thrust than it can use! This is means that the Armoured pack can also generate an acceleration of 29.5 Gs. Also, once the information of the armoured pack is released, this allows us to calculate the thrust generated by the thrusters on the armoured pack. Also, your assertions about me are not true. I have always said that the VF-25 is probably a better combat VF than the YF-19/-21 derivatives-- just not in the area of maneuverability. The data backs me up-- especially if CRs post about the g-limits being the sustainable accelerations of the YF-19/-21 is true. Your support is the idea that overtechnology G-suits cannot sustain higher Gs than the G suits we have now-a-days. I have already shown that the dialogue you posted is circumstantial, while my data isnt.

Sorry CR! I thought you were arguing against my argument when you were actually for my argument! Bolded would be a strong supporting argument for some pilots being able to handle the insane Gs. Hmm yep I was just trying to get around the problem of 'feel' since pilots who normally train on other jets would have extensive re-learning to do to function in a liquid environment-- even with non-newtonian fluids the viscosity (and resistance to movement) would not be able to match that of air. With a well tuned BDI such adjustments would be unnecessary.

Hmm I'm confused then-- Both your site and Macross Compendium list the 42,700kg/67500kg engines as well as stating the 56,500kg engines, also stating that the 56,500 kg was instantaneous thrust in space-- so unless the 56,500kg engines have no atmospheric limitations (i.e. 56,500kg in atmosphere as well, which would give the VF-19A, a mostly UNAF fighter an advantage), why would they want to switch over? Or have I answered my own question?

Agree for your first point, which supports my argument-- Guld certainly couldn't sustain his acceleration, but he could still achieve it (it being beyond the limits of the YF-21, until there is evidence otherwise). That is probably why the VF-25 has a thrust to empty weight ratio of 38.8 (from Mr. March's website ). Doesn't counter the point about G forces though, since G is all about acceleration. Good idea! You would probably need BDI/BCS though, since the fluid would hinder movement of your arms and legs to control the VF. The VF-27 is obviously most amendable to such a modification.

Meh, I am just quoting what we do know. We do know that the VF-22 can sustain +60/-45 Gs, we know that VFs beyond VF-1 can sustain G-forces beyond the limits of modern day technology, so why limit yourself to the thinking that G suits aren't that advanced? On the other hand, you are assuming that because EX-Gear > G-suit, hence VF-25 > VF-22-- which follows no logical consistency, to put things in your words, unless we know for sure the in-universe limits of the G-suit. Your 'progressive chronology' argument doesn't hold water as well, since as has been pointed out many times, there need be no constant improvements in a certain area, in fact, certain absolute performance parameters can be allowed to lapse in order to attain greater efficiency, as was asserted in the thruster discussion. If Chrono's argument held water, the VF-25 would have a higher G loading than the VF-22 since the VF-25 clearly has more additional external attachments than the VF-22 or its predecessors. Basically, until we know the G-limits of the VF-27, this argument is moot, since all arguments against the YF-19/-21 derivatives, like I said, are based on the (flawed) idea that newer must be better. The only argument that might hold water in my view is the EX-Gear one, but until we get some quantitative data, we can't know for sure.

Ok from the Magazine scans posted in the VF-25F 1/60 topic, on page 33 are the steps required to partsform the VF-25 1/100. 1) Removal of landing gear 2) Removal of legs, attachment of an additional piece, reattachment of legs for gerwalk 3) Attachment of Arms (implying removal of the shield and arm pieces from the fighter) Tadahh! Gerwalk mode! Next... 4) Removal of legs and head (seems like there is no need for an additional head piece, the head for battroid is stored in the normal area in fighter mode) 5) Transforming the body of the battroid, seems like there is a need to remove the nosecone and two other parts that I can't make out. 6) Attaching the crotch piece 6b) Reconfiguring the leg for fighter/battroid modes, reattaching the legs (i.e. removing the gerwalk piece, not shown) 7) Attaching the head Replacing the tail fins. And there you have it! Battroid!

Ok I can't read Japanese as well, but I noticed the Red numbers--I think they link the VF to their real world inspirations. VF-1 : F-14 (duh!) YF-19 : F-104 (huh?) YF-21 : YF-23/YF-22 (duh!) and F-111 (huh?) VF-0 : F-16 Sufa (huh?) SV-51 : SU-27 (duh!) No red numbers for the VF-25 but there is mention of the VF-1 (duh) SV-51 (possible) and probably some comparison to the YF-19. Ok at this point from the pictures I think the VF-25 is the 1/72 because it is much smaller than even the VF-1 in the picture. Pages 30-32 Have a preview of the VF-25 1/60 transformation sequence as well as more pics of the VF-25S and RVF-25. Page 33 shows the partsforming required for the VF-25 1/100--- all following the 1/100 thread take note! Page 34 Ranka's 'phone' pouch coming out... I am sooo getting one of those! Page 37: Unknown VF-25s on SMS stand? Must buy! Page 38 bottom: Lego VF-25 Page 48 has a dramatic pose of the VF-0S GERWALK that I wish I could get in a poster!

sweet! Thanks alot! How did you find this stuff? P.S. Is that a 1/72 or a 1/60 VF-25F Alto on Page 22? Because if it is a 1/60 it doesn't look that bad, IMO.

Yes, but apparently the g-suit pinnacle included pilots being able to withstand +60/-45Gs-- this is the point I am trying to make. Look, until there is official in-universe data that the VF-22 couldn't achieve its design G-limits with a human pilot in it, we have to assume that it can, because this is the data that we have. There is simply no point in arguing that for 99% of the pilots, the VF-25 is better. I agree with that as well. Like I have stated before, I am arguing the extreme case-- which is what you have to do when faced with elite pilots in the most maneuverable VF the Macross universe has ever seen. That is why the G-limits of the VF-27 is so important. The VF-27 places an upper limit on what the non-enhanced human body can tolerate, which, if this limit is less than the stated design limits for the VF-22, would mean that the YF-19/-21 derivatives, like you said, cannot be flown to the limit by its pilots, then human limitations come into play, and the VF-25 could potentially outfly the VF-22 with the same pilot in both because the EX-gear allows the pilot to pull higher Gs in the VF-25. In which case there would be no explanation as to why the YF-19/-21 and derivatives are so overbuilt by a factor of 2 or more. If, on the other hand, the VF-27 has limits greater than the VF-22, then the possibility still exists that for that elusive 0.01% of pilots who can tolerate +60/-45Gs in the most advanced G-suit short of the EX-Gear, who can then outfly the VF-25 with the VF-22 because the VF-22 is more maneuverable. Distilled down, it is this: I am arguing from the data of the VF-22, and the assertion that it would be idiotic to have design limits for a plane that is twice what the pilot could ever reach; hence, the pilot (regardless of whether he is the only one in the universe who could do so) must have been able to withstand +60/-45. Those who assert that the VF-25 is more maneuverable for most pilots are missing the point of my argument entirely.

Interesting. I guess the VF-27 is the next step in the YF-19/-21 paradigm for VFs and the VF-25 is the extension of the VF-1 design paradigm

Agree with the first part, disagree with the second part-- we have no idea how advanced G-suits are by the 2050s, we just know that the Ex-Gears are an improvement. Overtechnology could very well have increased G-limits for G-suits that the not-so-unprotected pilots are wearing. Frankly, until we know the G-limits for the VF-27, there is no evidence either for or against the assertion that the elite pilots of the YF-19/-21 series couldn't use their VF to their G-limits. (Out-of-universe, I think S.K. realized how insane +60/-45 G limits are and the VF-25 is an attempt to bring the G limits down to more believable levels) I suspect that the other VF-27 pilots are cyborgs as well, since they also originated from the M-Galaxy fleet.

That's just playing semantics games-- its not like they will release new and improved "ultimate" g-limits for the VF-25 right? Afterall, this is Macross, not Gundam 00 with its Trans-Am system. Exactly my point! On the topic of the VF-27, it seems to be a VF that doesn't get much love in this thread. One interesting note is how there seems to be a "hypersonic (heat?) barrier" for VFs in the lower atmosphere-- VFs don't go much faster than Mach 5. It looks like despite all the advantages of energy converting armour, there is one area where Overtechnology couldn't solve the problems. One thing though: If it is true that the VF-27 could use its PPB to withstand short bursts at Mach 9, why can't the VF-25 use its PPB for the same thing? Is the VF-27 able to generate a whole fuselage PPB versus the limited area PPB for the VF-25?

Cross-posted from the Mecha/Technology thread! Now, on to something new! I just got my GNU-DOUs.. all three (-11/-19/-21) and I must say that they are gorgeous! To prevent this from becoming a toy thread though, I noticed something interesting about the mecha data they have on the back. The YF-19 is stated to have a thrust of 56,500 kg x2, while the YF-21 is stated to have a thrust of 41,200 kg (atmosphere)/ 65,200 kg (space). Checking both the Macross Compendium and the Macross Mecha Manual, I see that the 56,500 kg stat was replaced--- so I was wondering when were the engines of the YF-19 upgraded/changed? Is there any canon book that stated the change? Is Yamato correct, or did it make a small, though noticeable mistake?

Meh... we don't have evidence either way so lets just leave it at that. Enough of flogging a dead horse-- until SK or someone in the know says definitively or otherwise that the VF-25 is more maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 series, all the hard data we have indicates that the YF-19/-21 is more maneuverable than the VF-25. The insistence that the VF-25 must be more maneuverable despite its lower G-rating seems pretty misplaced to me, and a product of the 'its new so it must be better' syndrome. Now, on to something new! I just got my GNU-DOUs.. all three (-11/-19/-21) and I must say that they are gorgeous! To prevent this from becoming a toy thread though, I noticed something interesting about the mecha data they have on the back. The YF-19 is stated to have a thrust of 56,500 kg x2, while the YF-21 is stated to have a thrust of 41,200 kg (atmosphere)/ 65,200 kg (space). Checking both the Macross Compendium and the Macross Mecha Manual, I see that the 56,500 kg stat was replaced--- so I was wondering when were the engines of the YF-19 upgraded/changed? Is there any canon book that stated the change? Is Yamato correct, or did it make a small, though noticeable mistake?

I change my answer-- you didn't tell me you had millia! 100% agree-- complete the couple! (i.e. Get Max)

Gubaba: Really?? I am saving space just for at least 1 can of bread, if only just for the novelty of it-- kind of epitomizes the quirkiness of the Japanese all in one small package with Sheryl and Ranka on the outside!

No-- we are in a discussion of whether the lower G limits of the VF-25 render it less maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 and derivatives. My assertion is that, yes it is-- for maybe the top 1% of pilots who can take the YF-19/-21 to the G-limits. Others (like yourself) have said that it was impossible for any pilot to take the YF-19/-21 series to the G-limits anyway-- and I offer Guld as an example of someone who actually went beyond the capabilities of the YF-19/-21. As further evidence, I offer the scene where he was killed-- by compressive Gs, not negative Gs. Pulling Gs so hard that your arms crush your rib cage and your head implodes is wayy beyond the 30-40 G limits of the YF-21. Frankly, I think that the notion that the VF-25 just has to be superior in every way to the YF-19/-21 series to be flawed. The VF-25 offers so many advantages other than maneuverability, and is probably more maneuverable (safely) for 99% of the pilots out there due to ISC-- I am arguing the case for the 1%, not the 99%. Moving on, I find it interesting that the design paradigm of the VF-25 has moved back towards that of the VF-11-- only integral direct fire weaponry and with missile weaponry in extra pods that are not entirely atmosphere capable. It seems like the VF-25 and the VF-11 are both more optimized for space.

O_O if you ever need someone to donate your broken/damaged VFs to, please give me a call

wait.. nasty as in nasty good or nasty bad?? I've always liked the SV-51 battroid and gerwalk modes, gerwalk especially... I was sold once Ivanov used that telescopic head thingy in gerwalk O_O

1/60 YF-19 w/Fast Pack+Fold Booster... if you can find it. Otherwise, just get the 1/60 YF-19 anyway

Well, Guld is half zentran, which could help with that. Also, it wasn't a constant acceleration, they were going all over the sky-- a series of instantaneous or near instantaneous large accelerations, if you will. Shear stress would also be exactly what you would expect if the aircraft exceeded its structural G-limit, since not all the aircraft components are directly in line with the engines or the centre of thrust. Given, that there would probably be some damage from the battle with the X-9. However the point of contention is probably the G-limiter that Guld disabled-- was it to limit the aircraft from running itself to pieces, or limit the aircraft from killing the pilot? Or both? Modern aircraft are not built or tested beyond what their pilots can withstand-- with normal G-suits the (trained) human body can withstand +9.0/-3.0, so most modern fighter jets are built to that standard, with a safety factor of about 1.1-1.2 (i.e. Airframe probably rated for +10Gs max), it is only with the advent of the new liquid G suits that pilots can withstand around +12 Gs, so the new F-22 Raptor is (officially) rated to +11.0, IIRC. If the official stats of the YF-19/-21 give it a G-rating of +31.0/-17.5, I assume that some pilots would be able to take it to that limit, even if only a select few. That is probably why the YF-19 killed so many pilots, and why it was never put into widespread use. The lower G rating of the VF-25 is probably so that less pilots would be able to kill themselves.

Good point-- maybe the VF-25 is more 'maneuverable' than the YF-19/-21 series in that it's engines response times are faster. We could probably just settle at that-- the VF-25 having a higher instantaneous maneuverability while the YF-19/-21 having higher sustained maneuverability. Agreed-- the thrust to weight ratio is only a measure of the linear acceleration possible, so I should have qualified that the VF-25 is the only VF able to accelerate itself to pieces in a straight line... a dubious honour at best, but very useful if the pilot needs to disengage from the fight at once. The F-4 Phantom with its (at the time) outstanding thrust to weight had the same advantage in the Vietnam war. In MacPlus the YF-21 seems to be accelerating forward and upward to hit the Ghost X-9, thus pulling positive, not negative Gs?

Well the next generation is already here! Just look at Luca's RVF-25 and his three disciples Off topic: There seems to be a whole Christianity thing running in MF-- Messiah, Lucifer, Simon, Peter, John, Judas system..