VF-1AG 1/48 Project Discussion

[ChristopherB]

Hello,

I wanted this subject to get as much coverage as possible, to hopefully promote as much discussion as possible.

This topic relates to the ongoing VF-1AG armor kit to be used with the 1/48 Yamato, and conversely relates to the Takatoku 1/55 GBP-1 armor kit. This forum is of course appropriate as compared to the model section, because it relates to the creation of an armor kit to be used with the Yamato 1/48 Valkyrie toy, and not a "model" kit. The topic also involves by proxy the Takatoku 1/55 and Yamato 1/60 GBP armor.

Let me start this off with a picture for reference purposes:

Link to other pictures:

VF-1AG Contest Thread

Could someone please post the picture the Design Works? I can't locate it, because the old forums are down.

My points of discussion to follow.

Sincerely,

Christopher

Edited April 8, 2004 by ChristopherB

[ChristopherB]

QUOTE: EXO April, 6 2004, 10:00 AM

It would be interesting to see how you get around the small wings on the lower legs. That's usually where people end up halting their projects.

Exo,

You are correct.

While the Hasegawa VF-1J GBP custom is amazing and beyond my skills to create, the creator chose to take the easy way out, and conveniently ignore the lower leg fins.

It was of course much easier for him/her to just pretend they did not exist, and use their own version of anime magic. If you can't make it work easily, just cut it off.

So, here we are now with the 1/48 VF-1AG project and the inherent enigma created by the very same issue, what do we do with the lower leg fins on the 1/48 Yamato.

Our hero Kawamori, chose also to take the easy route, and as such the drawing of the VF-1AG gives no indication of the leg fins. Thanks a lot Mr. Floating Head.

Fulcy is trying to figure it out, and so have I. He continues to work on the project, but he is anticipating the future solution for this problem. As such, here is a copy of my PM to him with my thoughts. The problem boils down to several premises and solutions:

"A folding leg fin will be fine for me because I'm paying for the commission, but other people may not want their 1/48 modified.

We can work this out. If a slot were placed in the leg armor to let the fin pass through, would the fin block the missile bay doors from opening or the missiles firing?

We have to look at it from a perspective error on the part of the drawing or an outright design flaw. Either the fins had magically shrunk via anime magic and are inside the armor, the true size of the lower leg armor is deceptively small for visual effect, or Kawamori just totally ignored them deliberately or accidentally. It has to be one of these options, as there are no others, unless a VF-1 suddenly developed the ability to retract the fins inside the leg or can fold them."

Sincerely,

Christopher

[ChristopherB]

You can also check out this thread to see a picture of a GBP custom that intentionally did away with the leg fin:

Hasegawa 1/72 GBP

Here are my observations and solutions:

Brief summary of leg fin versus GBP/VF-1AG lower leg armor.

Observations:

1.) The VF-1AG drawing in Design Works details the lower leg fin underneath the leg armor, but based upon the perspective shown it is difficult to tell it is there. (Option #1)

2.) Kawamori intenionally left it out, because of convenience or the use of so called "anime magic" that facilitates the ability of valkyries to morph and look good in all modes, regardless of structural changes. (Option #2)

3.) Previously unknown to us, valkyries have the sudden ability to either retract the lower leg fins inside the leg itself, or fold the fin flat against the leg. We know the fin is not jetisoned because once the armor is removed, the fin is still there. (Option #3)

4.) The GBP lower leg armor differs from the VF-1AG lower leg armor. (Fact #1)

5.) The lower leg fin if able to extend through lower leg armor, may or may not interfere with the missile ports firing their missiles. (Fact #2)

Solutions:

1.) Since the Yamato 1/48 follows available logic and the fact that there is no need, the lower leg fin does not either fold or retract, and as such this must be taken into account when designing the lower leg armor.

2.) As such, changes will have to be made to Kawamori's design based upon the aforementioned observations. Obviously, customers would prefer that their VF-1AG armor be able to attach to any 1/48 Yamato without the need for modification.

3.) Based upon this premise, the lower leg armor will have to be able to encompass/cover the lower leg fin. If this method is not used, a slot will have to be placed in the leg fin to allow the fin to fit through, but once again will the fin interfere with the missile port doors, and firing of the missiles inside?

The when/where/why as to Kawamori's picture are totally moot I would think, because discussing something created in the past will not solve this dilemma. It is a moot point not worth debating, because no one knows his intentions except him, unless your God.

Besides, my observations covered all possible explanations: 1.) perspective error on the viewers part, 2.) intentionally ignored, 3.) anime magic, 4.) retracting/folding lower leg fin

Now that we've moved past that, the topic becomes a solution.

Please let us know if you have a solution besides what I posted to the problem:

1.) Modify every customers 1/48 Yamato so they can have a "Kawamori Accurate VF-1AG"

2.) Design the lower leg armor so that the fin can pass through via a slot, thereby keeping to the "slim" contours shown by Kawamori, while keeping in mind the creation of possible difficulty with the missile ports.

3.) Bulge the VF-1AG lower leg armor so that it can cover the leg fin.

Thank you for your indulgence and possible help. I've always believed that a fool listens only to his own counsel, while a wise man considers other's advise before deciding upon a course of action.

Sincerely,

Christopher

Edited April 8, 2004 by ChristopherB

[EXO]

I don't have the book on hand, but IIRC the fins fold in while the armor is on. I can only assume Yamato never anticipated making a GBP armor when they designed the 1:48. But somehow they incorporated it into the 1:60 just fine although they look a tad big, it not at all distracting. Those armors are bulky anyway.

Edited April 8, 2004 by >EXO<

[Vostok 7]

I don't care what you do, I just want a VF-1AG.

Vostok 7

[ChristopherB]

I don't have the book on hand, but IIRC the fins fold in while the armor is on.

Exo,

See, that is the thing here. If the fins fold in, then the design problem is solved with regard to Macross, but still means we need a solution for the 1/48 Yamato.

Either a slot, bulging leg armor, or everyone that wants a VF-1AG armor set has to get their 1/48 Yamato modified so the leg fins can fold.

If it is true that the leg fins can fold, I would love to see proof, otherwise it's not substantiated.

Sincerely,

Christopher

[EXO]

I don't have the book on hand, but IIRC the fins fold in while the armor is on.

Exo,

See, that is the thing here. If the fins fold in, then the design problem is solved with regard to Macross, but still means we need a solution for the 1/48 Yamato.

Either a slot, bulging leg armor, or everyone that wants a VF-1AG armor set has to get their 1/48 Yamato modified so the leg fins can fold.

If it is true that the leg fins can fold, I would love to see proof, otherwise it's not substantiated.

Sincerely,

Christopher

If no one posts it before I get home tonight, I'll be sure to post it. I can guarantee it because Fulcy and I were discussing the very thing while I was staring at the book.

[ChristopherB]

What about screen captures showing the GBP armor?

Does the armor bulge around the lower leg, or does it appear to mold to the contours of the battroids legs?

I would submit or hypothesis that the only reason that the Takatoku GBP armor and the Yamato armor bulge at the bottom is to accomodate the leg fins, which were never designed by Yamato/Bandai from the beginning to be able to either fold or retract.

I would also submit, that there is no logical reason for the GBP armor or the VF-1AG armor for that matter to bulge at the bottom. Look at your 1/55 and even the 1/60 when it is released with GBP armor on, and besides the leg fin, there is no reason why the lower leg armor bulges. Except for battleships trying to deflect/absorb a torpedo blast, armor does not benefit by having space inbetween the part being armored, and I would argue that less structural integrity results from not having armor directly attached to the part being armored.

In essence, bulging lower leg armor on the GBP Bandai and Yamato is a consequence, as opposed to deliberate design from the beginning. The cause is an unyielding plastic fin.

As such, the ability of a real valkyrie's leg fin to fold, lends credence to the arguement that the lower leg armor should not bulge, but fit snugly onto the lower leg.

What about the detailed valkyrie internal detail poster that came with the Macross Gold Book if I remember correctly? Does it show a hinge on the leg fin?

As I mentioned, knowledge that the leg fin should fold, does not provide a different solution from what I already mentioned.

Edited April 8, 2004 by ChristopherB

[Mechamaniac]

Given all the scratch building that's going on, the solution seems pretty simple to me...

Recast the outer leg armors on the 1/48.

Recast them finless so it will not make a difference - Downside is that they will have to be installed on the Valk and left on there permanently etc, as will the AG Armor unless you want it to look wierd.

Or

Recast them with a built in hinge - They still would have to be permanently installed, but at least this way, you could remove the AG armor on a whim, and still have a normal looking Valk.

Or

Recast them, and design a retractable fin. Doesn't have to be too complicated, something along the lines of the retractable grip on the gunpod would suffice.

Edited April 8, 2004 by Mechamaniac

[ChristopherB]

Mechamaniac,

Thank you very much for posting your thoughts. I appreciate it.

We have a lot of pretty smart people here on MW, and I hope others will post their thoughts too.

To modify, or not modify, that is the question.

Once we get some solutions, maybe I'll start a poll to see what potential customers prefer.

Christopher

[jwinges]

My suggested solutions would be as follows in order..\

1. Design it similar to the taka GBP armor...a little wide but still very functional.

2. Design it with a slot that might obstruct the missles...adjust missles by aiming them out a few degrees for a secondary solution

3. Recast everyone new outer legs with a color match and add a retracting fin using a small piston to add tension to keep it in place in order to achieve perfect match to line art.

4. Recast everyone new outer legs with a color match and add a removable fin...this would be extremely easy...use those little rubber thingies that the gundam kits use to hold things on as an insert into the recast leg armors.

5. Recast everyone new outer legs with a color match and add a hinged fin...this would be extremely easy...but would also be problematic in that it could cause floppy fin sysndome.

So I go with 1 or 2.

I like this thread...its giving me some ideas for the leg armor for my Joke GBP.

Thanks

[Vostok 7]

If you want my opinion it would be of course to somehow design the armor around the fin. I really don't want to have to modify my 1/48 to fit the armor.

Not to mention a hinged fin would look different (could hide the seam on the inside and have it fold inward towards the landing gear so it would look good) and could possibly go limp which is what I would really be afraid of.

Vostok 7

[ChristopherB]

Can't really see any hinge on the fin:

[ChristopherB]

jwinges,

Good solutions.

I think we're going to end up going with your solution #1.

I just sucks that we will most likely not be able to stick to the line art, but I'm still curious about the disappearing fin trick.

I prefer your solution #2, which is similar to what I posted, but I'm glad you mentioned the possibility of adjusting the vector of the missiles to clear the fin.

Vostok 7,

I agree with you about having not having to modify the 1/48 Yamato's. As I mentioned, most people will want to be able to put the armor on and remove it without any permanent changes to their expensive valkyries.

I'm curious to see what Fulcy has to say.

Sincerely,

Christopher

[jwinges]

Personally if I had to modify my 1/48 it would be a deal breaker. I'd probably either pass on it see if I could get the kit without the leg armor and scratchbuild my own. 1/48 is just too expensive to be making major mods on.

[fulcy]

Personally if I had to modify my 1/48 it would be a deal breaker. I'd probably either pass on it see if I could get the kit without the leg armor and scratchbuild my own. 1/48 is just too expensive to be making major mods on.

Yeah, I am leaning towards not modifying it - I don't want to make something that will only fit on a 1/48 valk without some sort of modification - it would just turn people off. That being said, I may be able to work around it somehow - maybe making two sets of leg armor - one being a little bit bulkier, that can fit the fin inside of it, and is less accurate to the lineart. The other would be slimmer, and would be accurate to the line art, but would require you to either cut off the fin altogether, to fit the armor on, or add on a new outer leg half, that doesn't have the fin. Need to think about this a little more when I'm actually building it, and I can see what kind of space is in there, and what trade offs need to be made...

[e_jacob77]

Hi all,

I would just want one done in the best over all detail and ease of manufacture..

[EXO]

Can't really see any hinge on the fin:

Wow. Nice image. I wonder who went thru the trouble and put the blue background on there...

[bigkid24]

Hmmm...how much bigger would the leg armor be if you just fit the stuff around it vs. with a slit for the fin to go through?

I think making bigger leg armor is a better choice. My only complaint with the old Takatoku armor is that it's so big that with both pieces on there's no daylight between them. With a 1/48 though you can A stance it and have it look okay.

[fulcy]

The trouble is, take a look at the lineart:

The leg armor, as opposed to the leg armor on the GBP, is rather slender - so slender, it looks almost like it's just bigger than the lower leg itself, leaving little to no room for the fin...

[warrhead]

the missile launchers seem to coincide with the fins in the way of placement... would it look too unsightly to expand the depth of the armor (forward-to-back or "profile" dimension) so that the launchers could actually surround those fins? You could expand it enough so that the exposed missiles were only deep enough to serve as a facade to cover the fins. The down-side to that is that the missiles are non-removable, but the up-side is concealed fins and more slender armor for the legs. I personally wouldn't mind chunkier armor width, but I definately WOULD mind having to mod my 1/48.

Edited April 10, 2004 by warrhead

[ChristopherB]

I don't have the book on hand, but IIRC the fins fold in while the armor is on.

Hello EXO,

I'm still curious about the mystery of the folding fin? Does it fold, or doesn't it?

If you could post that picture you mentioned discussing with Fulcy, it will be appreciated.

Of course whether the fin is able to fold in the anime, will have no bearing on this project, because we won't be modifying anyone's 1/48, but it will explain some questions we have.

Sincerely,

Christopher

[EXO]

Hey Chris. Sorry about the delay. I was unexpectedly away for the weekend. Here's the pic I promised. Upon closer inspection, I can't tell if that's an arrow for the text referring to the fin or an arrow representing the action of the fin. Hopefully someone can translate it for you and it can help you out on your project. I understand that it inconsequential to people that wouldn't want to alter their 1:48s, but according to Fulcy he was more concerned with accuracy at the time during the discussion. (We were actually discussing the GBP armor from the other thread you mentioned earlier on this thread.)

Anyway, good luck and hopefully this can help you out in some manner.

[Anubis]

IIRC, when Hikaru went into reentry in the show, the leg fins did fold, the same time the heatshield came out and wings swept back. So as far as the show is concerned, the fins can fold.

Aside from that, for the AG it doesn't matter. The easier solution is best, there's no need to go through the trouble to cut the fin, or recast the legs finless. If the legs are going to be recast finless, then might as well recast the bottom part of the leg itself with the armor already attached as one piece (merely swapping the regular lower leg with the armored lower leg), since you have to dissassemble the leg anyway. Attach the thighs, knees, and feet to the armored lower legs. Wouldn't even need much white paint since the armor covers the whole lower leg anyway. End of problem.

If not that, then cut the groove in the armor for the fin. I would rather not modify a 1/48 at all honestly, and I wouldn't mind not having removable missles on the legs. Removable missles can still be in the shoulders. If that is the easiest solution then cool. Also, how far do the doors have to open? As far as the VF-19's leg missle doors? If so then not very far.

If the previous is easier though, then fine.

Edited April 12, 2004 by Anubis

[EXO]

IIRC, when Hikaru went into reentry in the show, the leg fins did fold, the same time the heatshield came out and wings swept back. So as far as the show is concerned, the fins can fold.

I remember that part. But mentioning it meant that I would have to search for it, so I said hell no, that's too many eps. to go thru.

[Anubis]

IIRC, when Hikaru went into reentry in the show, the leg fins did fold, the same time the heatshield came out and wings swept back.  So as far as the show is concerned, the fins can fold.

I remember that part. But mentioning it meant that I would have to search for it, so I said hell no, that's too many eps. to go thru.

Should be 26 or 27, the grand fight with Bodolza's fleet episode. After Hiraru gets pelted with missles, later wakes up, dumps the remaining fast pack armor, and goes to reentry. After that, he heads to Alaska base and rescues Misa.

If no one beats me to it, I'll get a screen grab later tonight. It's just one of those things no one thinks about too much, since the GBP only appeard in the two episodes, and they only showed the fin fold once to my knowledge, so it didn't make it's way to many cutaways or sourcebooks.

Edited April 12, 2004 by Anubis

[imode]

Hey Chris. Sorry about the delay. I was unexpectedly away for the weekend. Here's the pic I promised. Upon closer inspection, I can't tell if that's an arrow for the text referring to the fin or an arrow representing the action of the fin. Hopefully someone can translate it for you and it can help you out on your project. I understand that it inconsequential to people that wouldn't want to alter their 1:48s, but according to Fulcy he was more concerned with accuracy at the time during the discussion. (We were actually discussing the GBP armor from the other thread you mentioned earlier on this thread.)

Anyway, good luck and hopefully this can help you out in some manner.

It says, "Ventral Fin raises up" rises up? raises up? whichever, you know what i mean.

[ChristopherB]

Hello,

Thank you for everyone's help! I appreciate it on behalf of the project.

Don't worry, Fulcy will employ a method so that no ones 1/48 Yamato has to be modified, except maybe my own, but that is fine with me.

I would love to see the screen capture.

Sincerely,

Christopher

[one_klump]

If someone were to make the AG armor for the 1/48, I would buy a 1/48 just to have the armor...

[wolfx]

If someone were to make the AG armor for the 1/48, I would buy a 1/48 just to have the armor...

I'd die for some AG armor. One can hope.......

Now, if they made GBP for the 1/48....the sooner I can realise my dreams of an AG for my 1/48.

[EXO]

What about screen captures showing the GBP armor?

Sorry this isn't going to help your cause either, but it is interesting to note that in the TV series when the armor was released the fin magically goes thru the armor, so even the animation is not immune to the fin problem. Screen caps are in the Perfect Memory Book as well.

[Anubis]

Here's the screen grab.

In reentry

[Anubis]

After