VF-1 Size and scale up for debate

[infosys_ms]

From the blog maxharddrive.blogspot.com

I set out to make a 3D model of the 1/55 Ban Dai Valkyrie. I succeeded. I had a perfect toy size replica that needed to be scaled up to human size. Before I added the cock pit I mocked up a 6' pilot in the seated position (back then he looked like the Minecraft guy) and scaled up the VF model until he looked like he fit. The size I settled on was 63 ft 10 in long. This was years ago, it did not occur to me to look for the official specifications. I did look up the specs for the F-14 and at 62'9" my VF has 13" on it. That made sense to me. Bigger. Badder.

Now.

Look at a model of the star of the movie "Top Gun" the F-14 Tomcat. That pilot is not tom cruise, this guy is 6 ft tall. You see how it looks like the cockpit works? It looks like a pilot will fit and a RIO too. There is room for the landing gear and everything.

Look at the VF model at the specified "official" length of 46 ft 7 in (14.23 meters) compared to the F-14. At first glance I would buy that there is a guy in there and that this thing can transform into a giant robot.

But look at the pilot in this scale. It doesn't look like it works. He barely fits. The pilots feet and legs end up in the wheel well. We still need room for a seat (maybe two), instruments, landing gear and robotics. I am all for advanced miniaturized technology but this doesn't work for me. In my tests it just looked ridiculous and unrealistic.

Take a look at the VF at F-14 size 62 ft 9 in (19.1 m). It starts to look better. The cone sizes start to match up. The pilots feet aren't on the floor. There is even room for my super awesome cockpit!

In my measurements and test many, many years ago I arrived at the length of 63 ft 10 in. Have a look. The cockpit and ejector seat details are in the picture and it looks like it works.

Compared to the F-14 in this scale the VF-1 looks more imposing , more bad ass. It looks like it can kill some aliens.

Interestingly the wingspans also matched up at this length.

Has this been an issue with anyone else making a 3D model? I can't imagine any of the other Valkyrie toys would do much better scaled up to 47 ft. Other specifications need to be reexamined, Weight and Thrust to weight ratio. There will definitely be new measurements when the model transforms to ger-walk and battle-oid mode.

Well there you go. I put it out there for discussion. Should I petition congress to make it official? No. They can't get anything done. Internet gets stuff done.

Revised measurement;

63 ft 10 in length 63 ft wingspan 24 ft hieght

[Kaldar5]

Wow, that little guy should recline and relax a little bit. Looks tense with that perfectly straight back.

Also, landing gear could be telescoping and much thinner without as many struts when you put some alien alloys into the equation.

[CoreyD]

Agreed, how would the the design change if the cockpit seat was angled like a F16?

Edited March 21, 2013 by CoreyD

[Kaldar5]

On the OP post VF-1, when you look at just his forehead, and where the nearest cockpit glass is, it's way too close on the VF-1. He would be more reclined.

Looks quite reclined here.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Kaldar5

[infosys_ms]

Ha, ha, he is a bit ridgid up there. The seat itself is reclined. I did a test with the pilot reclined and his legs tucked in a bit. I did not save that test. I found that he still needed to occupy the same space. He still took up most of the space in the nose cone. I will have a render soon of Max in the seat where he will be reclinded. Stand by for more. :-)

[Duymon]

As said before, your pilot is too rigid and upright.

Tiny planes like the VF-1 are def possible, Just look at a real-life example of a tiny fighter plane, the F-5 TIger 2. Thing was so tiny it could be shipped in crates. The F-5 would be a more comparable plane size-wise to the VF-1.

The VF-1 is supposed to be tiny because it uses fictional alien tech and fictional fusion turbines as opposed to conventional engines like the much larger VF-0.

The Hasegawa kit manages to place the cockpit tub on top of the wheel well and fir a full-sized pilot fig. It was not much different from other 1/72 Hase Kits I've built.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Duymon

[sketchley]

The VF-1 is supposed to be tiny because it uses fictional alien tech and fictional fusion turbines as opposed to conventional engines like the much larger VF-0.

Correction: the VF-1 is tiny because it's designed to match the stature of the Zentraadi when in Battroid form.

OTEC et al only enables the small size, they didn't require it to be small.

[Zinjo]

Correction: the VF-1 is tiny because it's designed to match the stature of the Zentraadi when in Battroid form.

OTEC et al only enables the small size, they didn't require it to be small.

Yep that's the way I understood it.

Infosys, take a look at this thread. Mr Bickell, spent a lot of time working on the placement of the "guts" of the fighter during his 3D build.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34651&page=1

Hopefully he is working again and we'll see him here soon...

Edited March 24, 2013 by Zinjo

[anime52k8]

I think the scale and proportions make a lot more sense if you base your model/measurements on official line art and better proportioned models like the Hasagawa kits or a Yamato 1/60 V.2 and not an old chunky monkey.

[eugimon]

agree with anime52k8. If you're gonna try to get a "real" scale for the vf-1, you shouldn't start with one of the most compromised versions of the vf-1 as your starting point.

[kyekye]

AV-8B Harrier II length is 46 ft 4 in (14.12 m) little smaller than VF-1. It fits pilot fine?

Edited March 25, 2013 by kyekye

[Knight26]

I have to agree with anime52k8 as well, you should use a better reference. As for fitting in the cockpit, I am 6' plus and can fit into the cockpits of many older fighters where pilots were more height limited, with little to no difficulty. Off the top of my head, F-5/T-38, F-86, Mig-17, F-4, AV-8A, BeDe-5 (though I did have to ditch my shoes and the seat pad, or parachute, I could have one or the other, not both). More modern fighters are less height limited, and I've never had a problem with any of them either.

[Rodavan]

This is from another topic about scale , I still feel the same way .

Just remember the designs was done ,in 2D , by people who "cheat" with colour and pencils on a flat piece of paper. If you ever done a VF1 or VF-19 in 3D , there is no way that the actual "sizes" fit 100% --you have to make them fit within the refence material . Just have a look at the toys and the different ways the manufactureres bend the rule to make the transformations happen .

Have fun , this is not do or die stuff , what you have done already looks great.

[infosys_ms]

Thanks, the F5 and AV-8 help illustrate my point. They are 14m long fighters but the landing gear is clear of the cockpit. On the F5 it telescopes in/out in front of the cockpit. The AV-8 has its front gear dehind the cockpit. I tested these models and there is only room for the ejector seat underneath the pilot. Not saying there are no 14m jet fighters or that your average G.I. Joe can't fit in them. What I'm saying is If you are going to take the Ban Dai 1/55 model, scale it up to 14m you are not going to be able to have the landing gear folding underneath the pilots. They can't occupy the same space, it just dosn't jive. Unless you make it look something like this.

Alien tech aside if you are going to make a 14m non-transforming Ban Dia 1/55 VF-1 the landing gear would have to be the telescoping in-front config like the F5 and look like this.

The F-15 is 63 ft 9 in (19.43 m) and one inch shorter then my reviesed length for the VF-1. It gives you a good sence of what 14m jet looks like next to my revised specs.

agree with anime52k8. If you're gonna try to get a "real" scale for the vf-1, you shouldn't start with one of the most compromised versions of the vf-1 as your starting point.

Why not start with the 1/55? It is the original toy from the original show. It is the purest tangable form of the fictional cartoon plane. It really works and it transforms beautifuly. There are no original drafted drawings of the VF-1 with a scale pilot, so how did they arrive at that length? If you like your mecha to make sence and look like it works (which is part of what is so cool about macross) and you are trying to translate the 1/55 to real life (like for a live action movie), a length of 14m might need to be reconsidered.

[CoreyD]

Thanks, the F5 and AV-8 help illustrate my point. They are 14m long fighters but the landing gear is clear of the cockpit. On the F5 it telescopes in/out in front of the cockpit. The AV-8 has its front gear dehind the cockpit. I tested these models and there is only room for the ejector seat underneath the pilot. Not saying there are no 14m jet fighters or that your average G.I. Joe can't fit in them. What I'm saying is If you are going to take the Ban Dai 1/55 model, scale it up to 14m you are not going to be able to have the landing gear folding underneath the pilots. They can't occupy the same space, it just dosn't jive. Unless you make it look something like this.

f312d_Robotech_Toys_2839652322_712c9fc5c8.jpg

Alien tech aside if you are going to make a 14m non-transforming Ban Dia 1/55 VF-1 the landing gear would have to be the telescoping in-front config like the F5 and look like this.

F5 meme.jpg

The F-15 is 63 ft 9 in (19.43 m) and one inch shorter then my reviesed length for the VF-1. It gives you a good sence of what 14m jet looks like next to my revised specs.

Why not start with the 1/55? It is the original toy from the original show. It is the purest tangable form of the fictional cartoon plane. It really works and it transforms beautifuly. There are no original drafted drawings of the VF-1 with a scale pilot, so how did they arrive at that length? If you like your mecha to make sence and look like it works (which is part of what is so cool about macross) and you are trying to translate the 1/55 to real life (like for a live action movie), a length of 14m might need to be reconsidered.

Not trying to overly-critical, but isn't that like making a 1:1 scale mock up of the 1980s GI Joe figures or Star Wars figures with the huge heads and then saying that it looks disproportionate?

[eugimon]

Thanks, the F5 and AV-8 help illustrate my point. They are 14m long fighters but the landing gear is clear of the cockpit. On the F5 it telescopes in/out in front of the cockpit. The AV-8 has its front gear dehind the cockpit. I tested these models and there is only room for the ejector seat underneath the pilot. Not saying there are no 14m jet fighters or that your average G.I. Joe can't fit in them. What I'm saying is If you are going to take the Ban Dai 1/55 model, scale it up to 14m you are not going to be able to have the landing gear folding underneath the pilots. They can't occupy the same space, it just dosn't jive. Unless you make it look something like this.

f312d_Robotech_Toys_2839652322_712c9fc5c8.jpg

Alien tech aside if you are going to make a 14m non-transforming Ban Dia 1/55 VF-1 the landing gear would have to be the telescoping in-front config like the F5 and look like this.

F5 meme.jpg

The F-15 is 63 ft 9 in (19.43 m) and one inch shorter then my reviesed length for the VF-1. It gives you a good sence of what 14m jet looks like next to my revised specs.

Why not start with the 1/55? It is the original toy from the original show. It is the purest tangable form of the fictional cartoon plane. It really works and it transforms beautifuly. There are no original drafted drawings of the VF-1 with a scale pilot, so how did they arrive at that length? If you like your mecha to make sence and look like it works (which is part of what is so cool about macross) and you are trying to translate the 1/55 to real life (like for a live action movie), a length of 14m might need to be reconsidered.

because the toy has massively compromised proportions compared to the original show? The 1/55 was never designed to fit a pilot either, so deciding to pick that as your "official" vf-1 design over the line art or the more modern toys that do incorporate a pilot figure is disingenuous.

The argument that the 1/55's transformation "works" is bogus as well. It doesn't follow the onscreen transformation for either gerwalk or battroid.

[infosys_ms]

Yep that's the way I understood it.

Infosys, take a look at this thread. Mr Bickell, spent a lot of time working on the placement of the "guts" of the fighter during his 3D build.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34651&page=1

Hopefully he is working again and we'll see him here soon...

I am a big fan of Mr Bickell's work. I hope he chimes in on the subject. We need to wait to see a few things tho, A: We need to see a finished model for a final length and B: We don't know if he has placed a scale pilot in the seat. He is taking a very different approach then I. He does seem to be referencing the line art heavily so we will see how it goes for him if he ever finishes. My guess is when his model is complete and scales it to 14m the pilot will comically not fit and will have to scale up to get it to fit. Yes, we know its just a cartoon about

but he and I are going for some form of realism and the space that a pilot occupies has to be grounded in reality. He has also expressed concern about where the pilot will fit during battleiod mode. I have seen the line art in the Master File about the gear and pilot seating in battleiod mode but they are just that line art and not to scale. I really hope he posts again.

FYI: Mr Bickell is referencing the DYRL VF-1 which differs slightly from the SDFM version. example: his ejector seat will look like this;

Mine will look like this;

[infosys_ms]

I have to agree with anime52k8 as well, you should use a better reference. As for fitting in the cockpit, I am 6' plus and can fit into the cockpits of many older fighters where pilots were more height limited, with little to no difficulty. Off the top of my head, F-5/T-38, F-86, Mig-17, F-4, AV-8A, BeDe-5 (though I did have to ditch my shoes and the seat pad, or parachute, I could have one or the other, not both). More modern fighters are less height limited, and I've never had a problem with any of them either.

Wow, you've been in all those jets? Coooooooool!!!!!!!!! Are you in the service?

[Mr March]

...it is the original toy from the original show...

You HAVE to start a thread about the merit of movies on VHS tape j/k

Btw, nice work so far. A different take on the VF-1. Don't agree with some of your assumptions, but I like the work you did investigating it all.

[MechTech]

Last year I completed a detailed VF-1 in 1/350 scale (still got to get it molded). I worked very carefully with the drawings, specs, and a scale ruler. Then I compared with other accurate 1/350 th kits. Everything matched up good - even with "anime magic" plaguing some things; it all worked out in the end. The lineart and specs are accurate in the books - unbelievably (since there are so many other errors I've found out the hardware doing scratch builds. - MT

[reddsun1]

Roy was no pipsqueak--in fact, he was one of the show's tallest characters. This helps give some sense of how big it should be.

I know, I know; it's hand drawn, and trying to incorporate perspective (distortion?) with the angle. But still, I tend to agree that a VF-1 would need to be a bit bigger than 46(ish) ft to look "right" with a human occupant...

[infosys_ms]

Hey, if the 1/55 doesnt work for you thats cool. It looks like the thing on the cartoon to me. I've run the numbers on enough VF-1 toys to know that the ones with cockpits/pilot figures are not 14 meter planes when in scale to the pilot. I never said my design was the official anything. I referenced the "official" specifications. Line art and cartoons have zero measurements behind them.

I mean it literally works, its an object that is jet shaped that transforms into a man shape. What's bogus is what's going on onscreen. As much as I love SDFM (Robotech) sometimes the transformations are pretty laughable.

Stick around, you don't have to agree, you may still like.

because the toy has massively compromised proportions compared to the original show? The 1/55 was never designed to fit a pilot either, so deciding to pick that as your "official" vf-1 design over the line art or the more modern toys that do incorporate a pilot figure is disingenuous.

The argument that the 1/55's transformation "works" is bogus as well. It doesn't follow the onscreen transformation for either gerwalk or battroid.

[VF5SS]

To be honest if you watch the show the Valkyrie is more often drawn like the newer Yamato toys than it ever is the old Takatoku.

[SeminNV]

it is a good topic

If one starts 3d modeling of macross valkyries, he would see scaling problems immidiately. I have similat issue with SV-51, it should be bigger by 10-20% overall or the cockpit, otherwise the figure of Roy from VF-1S won't fit in it.

[infosys_ms]

To be honest if you watch the show the Valkyrie is more often drawn like the newer Yamato toys than it ever is the old Takatoku.

Correction: The newer Yamato toys look more like the drawn Valkyrie from the show. JK ;-)

I know what you mean tho. I can agree with that. I started 13 years ago, so not sure what other VF toys were available at the time.

I cleaned up all the toy details off the final model. That made it look more like the show and more realistic.

it is a good topic

If one starts 3d modeling of macross valkyries, he would see scaling problems immidiately. I have similat issue with SV-51, it should be bigger by 10-20% overall or the cockpit, otherwise the figure of Roy from VF-1S won't fit in it.

He smells what I'm cookin'

[007-vf1]

In my opinion I think you are honing in an accurate train of thinking.. My common sense tells me that most mecha in the Macross universe are slightly wrongly proportioned to their plausible live/real counterpart..

Even if we translated strong materials to a paper thin real life counterpart, lets say in the tactical pod as an example, a 10M zentraedi would not fit inside the cockpit and maneuver it as we see in the anime. The hierarchy rank system of the Zentran officer pods pilots makes me believe that the Glaug size would also proportionally increase. I always thought the Glaug and Queadlunn's should also be way bigger in size to accommodate a pilot the way is meant to be ridden which in some anime episodes seems to be under drawn and just doesn't match up, in others is way oversized.. Meltrandies (females) should also be as tall or even taller than males and actually physically stronger. I think a bit of male chauvinism is implied in the old Japanese animation creative trait of the character artists.

By now I believe we have all concluded that anime magic takes a big part of how this functionality in amine universe works and makes us mistakenly overlook many little details that might make logical sense to us in the surface but it isn't practical in reality. In the end we might just come to our own conclusion what we believe the "real" size should be.. i wonder if we could actually come to a general, even consensus if we put some effort in it?

What's everyone's take on this?

[Mr March]

It's long been speculated that most of the Macross mecha from the SDF Macross era were originally scaled according to Zentradi that were 8-8.5 meters tall, not 10 meters. The "10 meter rule" appears to be something that came about much later, likely to make the size a nice round figure and as a compromise for the many scaling errors shown in the animated productions up to that point. So the size of the Zentradi mecha and the Valkyries is fine given the original "smaller" size of the Zentradi. A size chart from the SDF Macross era animation materials vividly depicts the scales (see picture)

[VF-15 Banshee]

And if you look at this pic, I would say the pilot's legs look like they stretch out in the middle of the Spacy kite there.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Here's my thinking: In the last 30 years, people much more intimately associated with the series have gone back and drawn and redrawn just about everything that appears to be out of scale, and put it into scale. Comparing a 30-year-old plastic toy to realistic expectations is ridiculous, and taking original 30 year old hand-drawn animation as accurate scaling is just as bad.

I've always thought, one of the few things Macross had going for it, technically, was that it didn't have to rely on magic to maintain scale, which is unique to the transforming-robot genre. The discussion here isn't, "is the scale wrong". That's a question that can be answered: "No. People behind this went back and adjusted official information so everything fits." The actual debatable topic here is, "Have animation and toymaking technology improved in the last 30 years?"

To which, the answer is: "Not much."

[VF5SS]

Is the real question, "is it possible to have a fighter jet the size of an F-5 Freedom Fighter?"

Well yeah. We have F-5 Freedom Fighters in real life.

[paramat]

I'm rebuilding my transforming LEGO VF1 to a minifig scale 47 ft. length and i have managed to fit a minifig, rotating seat and forward landing gear in there ... but only just. VF1 looks better at a smaller size to me.

Edited May 25, 2013 by paramat

[infosys_ms]

Is the real question, "is it possible to have a fighter jet the size of an F-5 Freedom Fighter?"

Well yeah. We have F-5 Freedom Fighters in real life.

I've answered the F5 question.

Thanks, the F5 and AV-8 help illustrate my point. They are 14m long fighters but the landing gear is clear of the cockpit. On the F5 it telescopes in/out in front of the cockpit. The AV-8 has its front gear dehind the cockpit. I tested these models and there is only room for the ejector seat underneath the pilot. Not saying there are no 14m jet fighters or that your average G.I. Joe can't fit in them. What I'm saying is If you are going to take the Ban Dai 1/55 model, scale it up to 14m you are not going to be able to have the landing gear folding underneath the pilots. They can't occupy the same space, it just dosn't jive. Unless you make it look something like this.

f312d_Robotech_Toys_2839652322_712c9fc5c8.jpg

Edited June 1, 2013 by infosys_ms

[VF5SS]

And we told you that you can't use the 1/55th as your base because it doesn't accurately reflect the design down in the nitty gritty details. You don't use a Transformer if you want to model up the perfect Lamborghini Countach ;3

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34651&p=959725

and danbickell did it using the 14 meter figure and it seems to work fine.

[infosys_ms]

And if you look at this pic, I would say the pilot's legs look like they stretch out in the middle of the Spacy kite there.

I’ve said it before. There is zero measurement or scale behind hand drawn animated cells from the 1980s. There is zero measurement or scale behind hand drawn line art, there just isn’t. So please no more screen caps or line art to argue the point. The only thing it is good for is for visual reference and I’ve used it as such.

Edited June 2, 2013 by infosys_ms

[VF5SS]

http://nosutaru.fc2web.com/anime-model/MACROSS/imai/kahenn-VF-1D/1-72kahen-D.html

http://rgm79.seesaa.net/article/107560917.html

Well then take the old 1/72nd scale transforming VF-1 kit by Imai and scale it up. That has working landing gear and a full pilot figure.

Edited June 2, 2013 by VF5SS