Robotech and HG license debates

[Roy Focker]

Remember this?

******* ANNOUNCEMENT FROM SHAWN **********

ALL Harmony Gold/Robotech license debates now go in this thread(for old timers its just a rehashed issue every oher week). If you want to debate this issue post here. All other lone HG/Robotech licenseing threads will be removed from the forums.

Thanks!

Shawn

******* END ANNOUNCEMENT FROM SHAWN **********

NEW IMPORTANT NOTICE:

The last post in the old topic was the 6th of August (2003). Which means things were dying down. Please try not to start a debate asap. Just because I started this thread doesn't mean we have jump right back at it.

Wait until a debate on the subject natural comes up somewhere else and then bring it here.

To read the past nightmare:

http://www.macrossworld.com/cgi-bin/mwf/ik...;t=2348;st=3200

[DEATH]

i was wondering(sorry for starting somthing) but with HG bolcking imports of macross products into the US, is it only those commong from japan or from anywhere.

because if it is only being blocked from japan then why doesnt big west use another country as an import host into the USA

[muswp1]

I think it from anywhere since most of Yamato's products come from China, I believe.

[wrylac]

i was wondering(sorry for starting somthing) but with HG bolcking imports of macross products into the US, is it only those commong from japan or from anywhere.

because if it is only being blocked from japan then why doesnt big west use another country as an import host into the USA

HG claims a worldwide hold on SDF Macross and it's derivatives, that BW only has the right to sell merchandise within Japan. BW could produce their products where ever they'd like. Like muswp1 said, Yamato, liscensed by BW, produces in China, as does Toynami.

[Pat Payne]

Haveta give this point to Wrylac. Most toy companies manufacture in China for a number of reasons: 1. Low costs, 2. large labor force, 3. A government that has bent over backwards to bring business in to repair an economy that was faltering due to 40 years of communism. It doesn't mean that they have a legal right to sell the toys in China, in fact, some of the toys might be illegal for the average Chinese to own.

[the white drew carey]

Wrylac's right. For all intents and purposes, Yamato could have their toys manufactured in a factory right next to the Harmony Gold headquarters in California.

The whole thing really revolves around where the item is licensed to be sold to the public. In Yamato's case, it's Japan. In Harmony Gold's case it's North America.

[wrylac]

Wrylac's right. For all intents and purposes, Yamato could have their toys manufactured in a factory right next to the Harmony Gold headquarters in California.

The whole thing really revolves around where the item is licensed to be sold to the public. In Yamato's case, it's Japan. In Harmony Gold's case it's North America.

That's silly drew...there's no manufacuturing companies next to the HG building on Sunset.

[Effect]

I've been wondering about something over the past few weeks. Since HG only has rights to the animation of SDF Macross, if BW wanted to create a new show with the designs of SDF Macross(an Au, or something completely new), HG couldn't say anything about it if BW wanted to release it outside of Japan could they?

I guess that kinda goes along with BW releasing the rest of Macross without HG getting in the way.

Also another then I've been wondering about. If HG wants to make the claim that all the Macross sequels are based on the SDF Macross story(one of the reasons they could try and stop them if they don't get a cut, what I heard anyway), what is stopping BW from simply saying the macross sequels are all based on DYRL?(story and designs) Since TP had nothing to do with DYRL?(or I'm missing something) they really can't make a claim on it could they? Since they have no rights to the designs(just the animation only) any claim they could make on it infringing on RT would be mute wouldn't it since they can use the designs anyway they please? Or could the fact that DYRL was based on SDF throw that way of thinking out?

Edited August 22, 2003 by Effect

[Pat Payne]

In a perfect world, yeah, Effect. However, at this moment, even using the words "Macross," "Valkyrie," "SDF-01," "Minmay" or any designs that suggest any of those and HG's going to pounce like a rabid marmoset in heat. We had this discussion before. I'd love for them to do a re-animation of the original series (NO CG, however) with the DYRL? designs, but until that can of worms is closed, even it would be a tough sell coming over here.

[Pat Payne]

That's silly drew...there's no manufacuturing companies next to the HG building on Sunset.

That you know abou--aw crap, I've said too much! Now Big Brother's going to have me made into an unperson!

[Effect]

Pat: Thanks

Edited August 22, 2003 by Effect

[areaseven]

Here's a question I previously posted on the old forums:

If Harmony Gold is so secure about the Macross brand, shouldn't they be equally secure about the Robotech brand? For example, there's an Australian-based machine firm called Robotech Pty. Ltd.. Then there's Spectrum Products, a company that sells swimming pool cleaning products such as their Robotech 3000 and Robotech 3200 pool vacuum cleaners.

Are these companies paying HG royalties for using the word Robotech on their products? If not, why hasn't HG filed copyright infringement lawsuits against them?

[wrylac]

Here's a question I previously posted on the old forums:

If Harmony Gold is so secure about the Macross brand, shouldn't they be equally secure about the Robotech brand? For example, there's an Australian-based machine firm called Robotech Pty. Ltd.. Then there's Spectrum Products, a company that sells swimming pool cleaning products such as their Robotech 3000 and Robotech 3200 pool vacuum cleaners.

Are these companies paying HG royalties for using the word Robotech on their products? If not, why hasn't HG filed copyright infringement lawsuits against them?

You know my dad used to own a business a long time ago called "Blinds R Us." It wasn't very long before he got a letter from you know who. They claimed that anything named "______ R Us" infringed on their brand. They actually had no case, but the cost to dispute it in court would have put my dad out of business, he just renamed his business.

But to answer the question directly, I could open a dry cleaning shop right next door to HG (thanks drew) and name it Robotech Cleaners, I could even put up pictures of generic looking mecha all over the place and HG couldn't touch me.

To address the Macross issue: HG's claim stems from the fact that the subsequent shows, toys, and merchandise are derivatives of SDF Macross. Not just some random product named Macross.

Edited August 23, 2003 by wrylac

[wrylac]

I've been wondering about something over the past few weeks. Since HG only has rights to the animation of SDF Macross, if BW wanted to create a new show with the designs of SDF Macross(an Au, or something completely new), HG couldn't say anything about it if BW wanted to release it outside of Japan could they?

I guess that kinda goes along with BW releasing the rest of Macross without HG getting in the way.

Also another then I've been wondering about. If HG wants to make the claim that all the Macross sequels are based on the SDF Macross story(one of the reasons they could try and stop them if they don't get a cut, what I heard anyway), what is stopping BW from simply saying the macross sequels are all based on DYRL?(story and designs) Since TP had nothing to do with DYRL?(or I'm missing something) they really can't make a claim on it could they? Since they have no rights to the designs(just the animation only) any claim they could make on it infringing on RT would be mute wouldn't it since they can use the designs anyway they please? Or could the fact that DYRL was based on SDF throw that way of thinking out?

It's quite possible that BW could use the designs from SDF Macross to tell a completely different story, they couldn't call it Macross, but throw a different name on it and I doubt HG could do anything about it.

The thing with DYRL? is that, as you said, DYRL? itself is a derivative of SDF Macross. The movie capitalized on the success of the series.

[Radd]

It's not just the name, Harmony Gold has been claiming they own the exclusive rights to the designs, hance Yamato not being able to release their DYRL? Valkyries abroad.

Harmony Gold has backed off considerably since the court cases in Japan, though, so it's entirely possible all this is a mute point and that we'll see Macross Zero on DVD in US stores a year or so from now.

Also, saying that DYRL? wouldn't work even if everything was renamed, but something completely new using the same designs would work doesn't make sense. DYRL?'s story departed significantly from the tv series story. Enough, I'd say, to work under this possible loop-hole everyone is discussing, if everything was renamed. I just don't think it would work either way for the previous reasons.

[the white drew carey]

Here's a question I previously posted on the old forums:

If Harmony Gold is so secure about the Macross brand, shouldn't they be equally secure about the Robotech brand? For example, there's an Australian-based machine firm called Robotech Pty. Ltd.. Then there's Spectrum Products, a company that sells swimming pool cleaning products such as their Robotech 3000 and Robotech 3200 pool vacuum cleaners.

Are these companies paying HG royalties for using the word Robotech on their products? If not, why hasn't HG filed copyright infringement lawsuits against them?

Simple, they're attempting to block direct competition by using certain tactics in order to stall or scare off any companies that may provide that competition.

Seriously, though- Harmony Gold has trademarked the Robotech name, but, as Wrylac has said, they aren't pursuing other companies who use the name, but are not, in any way, in the same market.

But you can bet your bottom dollar that if I started a company that made pool cleaning products and named them the Macross 3000 and the Macross 3200, Harmony Gold would be on my case in seconds.

...What a horrible concept: Macross 3000 pool cleaners... Ugh.

[wrylac]

I think you misinterpret HG's argument. HG can't claim rights to the designs, the Feb02 ruling made that much clear. The reason they block DYRL? valks is because they are based on a derivative of SDF Macross. BW and Yamato could very well sell the toys with a different name on them. Back in the 80's the Transformer Jetfire sold with the exact same design as a VF-1S and there wasn't a big stink about it from HG. Of course that makes FASA look like they got punked for settleing a case they might have been able to win. That is if they got the rights through the proper channels in the first place.

I wouldn't call HG releasing Macross 7 Trash exactly backing off.

As far as BW saying that DYRL? isn't a derivative of SDF Macross, that's a very difficult case to make. It'd be very hard to deny that the very existance of the movie was because of the popularity of the show.

[the white drew carey]

I think you misinterpret HG's argument.  HG can't claim rights to the designs, the Feb02 ruling made that much clear.  The reason they block DYRL? valks is because they are based on a derivative of SDF Macross. 

Ummm, you know that's not true. The TV valks are associated with the TV series and are connected with that license. The DYRL valks are associated with DYRL and are connected to the DYRL license (something HG has never been able to prove that they have the rights to), which is in limbo. If HG's claims were true, they could simply claim the license to DYRL without even having to locate whoever is the current license holder, especially since the status of the DYRL license is uncertain, they wouldn't have to fight someone for it (such as they would have to do if they ever attempted to lay claim to MacII or Mac+ from Manga).

BW and Yamato could very well sell the toys with a different name on them.  Back in the 80's the Transformer Jetfire sold with the exact same design as a VF-1S and there wasn't a big stink about it from HG.

I had thought that the reason HG couldn't make a stink about Jetfire is because Hasbro legally licensed the toy and released it under different name under a different product line (heh... kind of like what HG did to Macross).

Hmmm... I think this is the real reason why HG couldn't do anything about DYRL, MacII and Mac+. Because the licenses were legally procured and HG had no reason to be involved, hence they weren't involved.

Of course that makes FASA look like they got punked for settleing a case they might have been able to win.  That is if they got the rights through the proper channels in the first place.

This is speculation, but I think the whole issue was that FASA only bought the rights from Tatsunoko to release those small Nichimo kits, but they started using the mecha designs with their gaming miniatures and also started using the images, neither of which they had the rights to. This is why they could no longer sell the miniatures and ended up redesigning those mecha.

I wouldn't call HG releasing Macross 7 Trash exactly backing off.

I may eat my words on this, but all I've seen is the press release from TokyoPop, which simply mentions HG's version of history with Macross, but in no way indicates any actual involvement. Also, when asked, someone at HG said that they were "cooperating". Now, "cooperating" can mean many things, including going along with things because you really have no choice (kind of what we all do when the Police bust us for Slurpee smuggling). If HG was involved with the release of Trash I'd think they'd have more exciting things to say about it.

As far as BW saying that DYRL? isn't a derivative of SDF Macross, that's a very difficult case to make.  It'd be very hard to deny that the very existance of the movie was because of the popularity of the show.

This statement is based on the assumption that HG does, in fact, hold the rights to the derivatives outside of Japan. A statement that they have not only failed to prove, but have outright refused to prove.

But, to respond to your statement, I don't think BigWest HAS ever said that DYRL isn't a derivative of Macross. But it IS a different license, which Tatsunoko and, hence, HG, have never had any claim to.

Furthermore- (once again) Tatsunoko has never, ever, tried to lay any claim to any Macross production or make any beef with BigWest licensing other Macross shows except for the original TV Series. Kind of makes you curious why HG thinks they can... especially (once again) since they've never legitimately proven that their claims are true.

p.s.- Your sig: "It's useless to discuss until someone's posted a complete translation. Hey, you haven't posted one."

That's your beef. Quadrono posted one that you claim wasn't accurate, yet have still failed to convince everyone else that it was wrong.

[Abombz!!]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

Edited August 23, 2003 by Abombz!!

[bsu legato]

[3PO] Here we go again...[/3PO]

[Abombz!!]

[3PO] Here we go again...[/3PO]

[Han]Shut up, Goldenrod!![/Han]

Edited August 23, 2003 by Abombz!!

[Roy Focker]

Guys please don't do anything on your own or that will encourage others to do something that we aren't going to like.

[the white drew carey]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

Last I heard Best Films had the license, but that was awhile ago and now everyone is unsure who put it out.

One thing we're positive of, HG never got to lay a hand on it.

[Abombz!!]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

Last I heard Best Films had the license, but that was awhile ago and now everyone is unsure who put it out.

One thing we're positive of, HG never got to lay a hand on it.

Then why isn't someone going after it? Don't tell me Bandai is going to bring Macross over and not release DYRL. <_<

[Drad]

Then why isn't someone going after it? Don't tell me Bandai is going to bring Macross over and not release DYRL.

Maybe because DYRL is "old"? Seems to me that Bandai's focusing a lot more on the new Macross stuff. I mean, they've pretty much ended their run with the 1/55 Valks, so leaving DYRL off the list of priorities wouldn't be surprising.

Still, I'd love to see an official release of DYRL. B)

[Abombz!!]

As far as BW saying that DYRL? isn't a derivative of SDF Macross, that's a very difficult case to make. It'd be very hard to deny that the very existance of the movie was because of the popularity of the show.

The funny thing is.... BW seems to be basing all sequels and prequels on DYRL not SDF. Just look at the new Macross game.... its DYRL based. Macross 7 was DYRL based, and Macross Zero might be DYRL based too.

[azrael]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

Last I heard Best Films had the license, but that was awhile ago and now everyone is unsure who put it out.

One thing we're positive of, HG never got to lay a hand on it.

For the UK, Kiseki Films released a version. Amazon also lists a version put out by Celebrity Home Entertainment (but they could be Best film & Video). For the sake of clairty, I'll e-mail Robert Woodhead of Animeigo and ask if he can list everybody who claims to have a license to it.

[Pat Payne]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

Like I've said before, there are a couple of companies that claim some piece of that action, including Best Film and Video, Celebrity Home Video, HG (natch) BW (Double natch) and JVC Victor (music rights). Sitting on the sidelines are every anime company in the States who'd love to release DYRL.

There were three, IIRC: First was "Clash of the Bionoids" (hacked up atrociuous HK dub that seems to be a staple of every Blockbuster store in creation, from Celebrity Home Video), then "Macross" (uncut same atrocious HK dub, but from Best Film and Video,this time -- this must have been the JAL-commissioned dub or something, it was created by BW itself) and then a subtitled version which appeared on VHS briefly and then left the shelves forever (slightly edited for nudity and two decapitations, but great translations though.)

Edited August 23, 2003 by Pat Payne

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

Amazon also lists a version put out by Celebrity Home Entertainment (but they could be Best film & Video).

Celebrity Home Entertainment is an entirely different company. Back then, they used to release Saban's Macron 1, Tranzor Z, GI Joe: the Movie and lastly the English dub of DYRL, under the title "Macross: Clash of the Bionoids".

I have both the Celeb's and Best Film's version of DYRL. Celeb's copy has a stereo track and it has cuts that seriously altered the story (in chronological order):

* The teaser with Britai and Exedore examining metal debris was cut.

* Minmay's concert performance was shortened.

* Minmay's shower scene was cut, shortening the scene where the two are trapped and the song "Zero-G Love" was cut.

* Focker and co. meeting up with Hikaru after Misa stepped out.

* The bridge bunny trio having a chat.

* Hikaru and Minmay's outing in a SuperOstrish was shortened.

* Milia's Q-Rau crushing a Zent's skull was cut.

* The gory deaths of Focker and Quamzin was cut but the explosion of Skull One was retained.

* Hikaru and Misa exploring the Prometheus was cut.

* The gory death of a guy with his head chopped was cut.

* All scenes of Max and Milia with their Q-Raus was cut (leaving a false impression that the two died along with Laplamitz's fortress.

* The destruction of the Zent gunship by Britai was cut, as well as his ship blasting a hole into Boldolza's fortress.

* Lastly, in a piss-off manner, they cut off the scene that Hikaru survived in the epicenter after the demise of Boldolza and his fortress (not only it left a bad impression that Hikaru was dead but also leaves Misa and Minmay smiling in the end).

* The song "Angel's Paints" was cut. Once Minmay finishes her "one, two, three, four...", the credits instantly roll without a song.

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

Who the heck owns the DYRL license outside Japan? Wasn't there an official US release of DYRL? What happened to that?

There was a US release of DYRL but it was not mass-released and it was dubbed a badly-made dub from Hong Kong, since Toho was shown in the opening credits as the distrubuter and probably done so in order to get DYRL as an in-flight movie for Japan Air Lines.

In a nutshell, DYRL suffered the same fate as Battle of the Planets: it was simply passed down to too many hands until one got it and sat on it because whoever used to own it were small-house studios that get bought up later on.

Rhino Video took a long time obtaining the video rights of Battle of the Planets. Not only they have to get the license on the Sandy Frank dub, but also the Ted Turner/Fred Ladd version and finally Saban's Eagle Riders. It also took a long expense to get the original Gatchaman footage as well, but they took a long way to get it and achieved in releasing it on DVD.

[Hoptimus]

Amazon also lists a version put out by Celebrity Home Entertainment (but they could be Best film & Video).

Celebrity Home Entertainment is an entirely different company. Back then, they used to release Saban's Macron 1, Tranzor Z, GI Joe: the Movie and lastly the English dub of DYRL, under the title "Macross: Clash of the Bionoids".

I have both the Celeb's and Best Film's version of DYRL. Celeb's copy has a stereo track and it has cuts that seriously altered the story (in chronological order):

* The teaser with Britai and Exedore examining metal debris was cut.

* Minmay's concert performance was shortened.

* Minmay's shower scene was cut, shortening the scene where the two are trapped and the song "Zero-G Love" was cut.

* Focker and co. meeting up with Hikaru after Misa stepped out.

* The bridge bunny trio having a chat.

* Hikaru and Minmay's outing in a SuperOstrish was shortened.

* Milia's Q-Rau crushing a Zent's skull was cut.

* The gory deaths of Focker and Quamzin was cut but the explosion of Skull One was retained.

* Hikaru and Misa exploring the Prometheus was cut.

* The gory death of a guy with his head chopped was cut.

* All scenes of Max and Milia with their Q-Raus was cut (leaving a false impression that the two died along with Laplamitz's fortress.

* The destruction of the Zent gunship by Britai was cut, as well as his ship blasting a hole into Boldolza's fortress.

* Lastly, in a piss-off manner, they cut off the scene that Hikaru survived in the epicenter after the demise of Boldolza and his fortress (not only it left a bad impression that Hikaru was dead but also leaves Misa and Minmay smiling in the end).

* The song "Angel's Paints" was cut. Once Minmay finishes her "one, two, three, four...", the credits instantly roll without a song.

Angel Paints is only on the newer releases of DYRL. That is actually from FB 2012. That DYRL could be from the older version.

[Radd]

AnimEigo attempted to get the 'DYRL?' license so they could release it alongside their HG sanctioned 'SDF Macross' DVD set. Unfortunately, they claim they were trying to track down the license and just could not figure out who actually owned it on this side of the pond.They eventually gave up because the paper trail was just too long.

[Abombz!!]

I guess whoever owns the DYRL license must be the real "Most wanted" guy on the planet. The funny thing though.... this is just in America, as DYRL was shown on South America and Iberia (Portugal and Spain) before.

[Bub]

Anyone know why Harmony Gold isn't runing after Manga for releasing Macross Plus in the US where there is a VF-1 appearance?

I thought Harmony Gold claims anything derivative from the Original Series.

[Effect]

I think it was said since they didn't do anything about it when it was being released they can't do anything about it now. They missed their chance. So instead they will try their best to stop all future Macross items( ) unless they get some kind of cut if they are entitled to or not, like Macross 7 Trash I believe.