Arcadia 1/60 VF-0S & VF-0A

[ArchieNov]

True. But then consider that the Bandai VF-19Advance and Yamato VF-4 had way more complex transformations and gimmicks than the Arcadia VF-0A and yet those didn't have anywhere near the number of the engineering issues that the 0A has that lead to toy breakage/damage.

Plus also note that the 0D came before the 0A, and yet that had better overall QC than the 0A. Although the 0D also did have its share of weird engineering choices (gunpod notches too far back, making it interfere with rear arrestor hook).

Edited September 10, 2015 by ArchieNov

[Chronocidal]

The irksome thing is really that several of the features on the VF-0D were steps backwards from the old Yamato VF-0s. That just flat out should not happen.

The materials used are exponentially better, and the quality of the molding is much higher. But at the same time, they left a few problems from the old design untouched, and even introduced new problems that the original design never had. I can't wrap my head around that one.

[seti88]

A full diecast metal ball hip joint would probably have been a better way to go. Not sure if it was a limitation of the factory unable to cast a ball joint or not, but i do hope it wasnt because of cost. Or was it because a metal ball joint would be loose after a while? I thk that could be rectified with plastic insert or something.

Again barring the hip joint, everything else feels solid.

* thrusters extended after trying it with drier hands but still considered tight..

Edited September 11, 2015 by seti88

[seti88]

I honestly wonder whether it's even possible or reasonable to expect fewer failures than we're seeing in Arcadia products. These toys are pretty complex mechanical designs when you think about it. I can't think of too many other products that would have near the same amount of complexity as far as moving parts. And even the ones that do usually don't have to account for how the parts will fit in multiple configurations the way a PT valkyrie toy does. Slight changes to even a single part have to factor in what it's going to affect as far as articulation and appearance in all three modes. It's not a like an action figure where, if I decide to make the legs slightly longer, it's mostly an aesthetic determination that won't affect functionality. There's also the fact that consequences for failing components are low in a valk compared to a lot of other mechanically complex products. If a joint fails in a valk, sure you'll be pissed but little harm is done. A component fails in a car and someone could die, so you know they will make damn well sure that the probability of failure is extremely low.

Minor error/issues that dont affect the overall playability (it is a toy after all!!) or i would say durability should be tolerable.

Any toy manufacturer should look to really lock down potential areas of breakage.

It boils down to overengineering. No point overengineering it if it breaks so easily.

Thats what i loved abt my old VF toy. It cant pose like the modern ones with the legs etc, but hey it still transforms effortlessly after 20 odd years!

sorry minor rant..back to surgery...

[technoblue]

^Agreed. I can forgive misaligned markings and other small annoyances if the toy is solid. The hip ball joint issue has me concerned. It would have been nice to see it completely resolved for the 0A release. Hopefully, the 0S fairs better.

On a related note, I took my 0A out for a test swoosh this evening. It looks very good, and I'm happy with the paint and the markings out of the box. I'll have to reference this thread during my first transformation to take careful note of the scratch points (like the triangles). Also, the head laser on my copy sits straight in case anyone is keeping track.

[seti88]

^Agreed. I can forgive misaligned markings and other small annoyances if the toy is solid. The hip ball joint issue has me concerned. It would have been nice to see it completely resolved for the 0A release. Hopefully, the 0S fairs better.

On a related note, I took my 0A out for a test swoosh this evening. It looks very good, and I'm happy with the paint and the markings out of the box. I'll have to reference this thread during my first transformation to take careful note of the scratch points (like the triangles). Also, the head laser on my copy sits straight in case anyone is keeping track.

In addition to the *test swoosh* i added *test guns/missiles firing* as well...

yeah my laser seems to be straight also...

[SuperSenpai]

Well, as a counterpoint I'd say that the things are overengineered because collectors want cool features and gimmicks. Over at the Hi-Metal thread, people have been talking about how they want integrated landing gears and integrated heat shield.... on a 1/100 scale toy! I'm sure it's possible to pull such a thing off, but good luck doing it in a manner that is not prone failures.

The more moving parts there are, the more points of failure. It's an inevitable trade-off. I'm not saying that I don't wish Arcadia products didn't fail or break as much as they currently do. I just question how realistic it is to expect better given the complexity.

[mickyg]

A full diecast metal ball hip joint would probably have been a better way to go. Not sure if it was a limitation of the factory unable to cast a ball joint or not, but i do hope it wasnt because of cost. Or was it because a metal ball joint would be loose after a while? I thk that could be rectified with plastic insert or something.

Again barring the hip joint, everything else feels solid.

* thrusters extended after trying it with drier hands but still considered tight..

On the topic of expensive toys and the ball joints they utilise, let me show everyone the ball joints on the recent Bandai VF-19Advance toy:

And both halves of the socket:

So it's the same familiar arrangement of a plastic cap on one hemisphere of the ball, contained within a metal socket. What I didn't photograph is the complicated arrangement of plastic end caps that hold the socket together, with the whole thing then held together with not one, but two screws.

I don't think the half metal/half plastic design is the problem here. Just my two cents worth.

By the way, I dismantled it for two reasons:

1. I'm curious and like to take stuff apart
2. The left leg on this thing is notoriously tight and I wanted to know why (I'm not sure I got my answer though as I couldn't find anything obvious except maybe that the plastic end cap on the ball was a slightly rough?)

[Chronocidal]

The plastic/metal combination ball joint isn't the problem, because they can clearly work. The problem is in Arcadia's ability to design and manufacture them correctly, so they do work.

I take issue with the entire thing because they clearly knew how to make perfectly good hip joints for the v.1 VF-0. I don't know how you can just forget how to do that.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Chronocidal

[mickyg]

That's a very good point. Even the V2 VF-1 toys have an all metal (albeit painted) diecast ball, with a plastic insert into the socket for friction. Anyone have any issues with the hips on their VF-1 toys? I sure haven't heard about it.

EDIT:

I'm not entirely sure about that painted part. Maybe they left the ball unpainted?

Edited September 11, 2015 by mickyg

[seti88]

That's a very good point. Even the V2 VF-1 toys have an all metal (albeit painted) diecast ball, with a plastic insert into the socket for friction. Anyone have any issues with the hips on their VF-1 toys? I sure haven't heard about it.

EDIT:

I'm not entirely sure about that painted part. Maybe they left the ball unpainted?

Yea thats seems more along the lines of a sturdy hip...

I understand yamato folded, but since they didnt change the factory, it doesn't explain why they couldnt manufacture the same.

like chronocidal mentioned...hard to fanthom how or why it can be forgetten...

[seti88]

Well, as a counterpoint I'd say that the things are overengineered because collectors want cool features and gimmicks. Over at the Hi-Metal thread, people have been talking about how they want integrated landing gears and integrated heat shield.... on a 1/100 scale toy! I'm sure it's possible to pull such a thing off, but good luck doing it in a manner that is not prone failures.

The more moving parts there are, the more points of failure. It's an inevitable trade-off. I'm not saying that I don't wish Arcadia products didn't fail or break as much as they currently do. I just question how realistic it is to expect better given the complexity.

I suppose what am getting at is to prioritise 'quality/correct engineering' vs 'over-engineering'.

[Scyla]

It is also worth mentioning that the half metal half plastic ball-joint is also present on all the Bandai Valkyries from the YF-29 onwards and I never heard of a problem with them other than they are too loose.

Here is an image of the VF-25F Renewal hip joint (hint hint I'm still looking for a replacement part ) and you can see that the design of the hip joint is similar:

I think the reason why it is implemented that way is to increase the tension of the joint. The way the parts are coated probably would lead to less friction on a metal on metal connection.

[seti88]

It is also worth mentioning that the half metal half plastic ball-joint is also present on all the Bandai Valkyries from the YF-29 onwards and I never heard of a problem with them other than they are too loose.

Here is an image of the VF-25F Renewal hip joint (hint hint I'm still looking for a replacement part ) and you can see that the design of the hip joint is similar:

I think the reason why it is implemented that way is to increase the tension of the joint. The way the parts are coated probably would lead to less friction on a metal on metal connection.

I heard of appying future polish coats to increase the tightness or reduce the gaps between ball and socket. Would that work?

in the vf-0a case, could it be the adhesive used to bond the plastic ball and metal also didnt have sufficient time to cure? I heard that plastics to metal need a long cure time. But i can see that if we didnt have the half/half solution, shearing of the rod from the plastic wouldnt even be a factor..

Edited September 11, 2015 by seti88

[Scyla]

I heard of appying future polish coats to increase the tightness or reduce the gaps between ball and socket. Would that work?

in the vf-0a case, could it be the adhesive used to bond the plastic ball and metal also didnt have sufficient time to cure? I heard that plastics to metal need a long cure time. But i can see that if we didnt have the half/half solution, shearing of the rod from the plastic wouldnt even be a factor..

Anubis has a great fix for that where he inserted a piece of rubber into the ball coup resulting in a much better tension of the joint. I'm not looking for a replacement because the friction is not good but because the piece is broken on one of the struts for the hip ball.

[koonfasa]

I spoilt myself over August. This is here now. I forgot this wasn't Bandai, there's no stand.

[seti88]

*gently turn the thigh halves...*

been stuck on it for half an hour.....time to rest....

[seti88]

after few more tries...

never tot i would go this far, at least to dissamble a valk. A new experience for me..and..upon examination of the metal socket, the plastic bit is absolutely bonded into the socket wall. No leeway to move at all..I tried giving it a few knocks but it doesnt seem to budge.

Will have a look at it later again.....

[ChaoticYeti]

Glad you finally got it apart. Glue in the socket is what caused my issues as well.

[no3Ljm]

after few more tries...

DSC_18071.jpg

giphy.gif

never tot i would go this far, at least to dissamble a valk. A new experience for me..and..upon examination of the metal socket, the plastic bit is absolutely bonded into the socket wall. No leeway to move at all..I tried giving it a few knocks but it doesnt seem to budge.

Will have a look at it later again.....

Looks like you have a broken peg from one of the thigh halves. That happened to me too on my VF-0D. By the way, while you're at it, tighten also the knee swivel joint since the thigh halves are already open just in case for the future. To prevent the VF-0 doing uncontrollable splits.

[seti88]

Looks like you have a broken peg from one of the thigh halves. That happened to me too on my VF-0D. By the way, while you're at it, tighten also the knee swivel joint since the thigh halves are already open just in case for the future. To prevent the VF-0 doing uncontrollable splits.

I guess i dont have surgeon hands or the patience and i went rambo on it.

i couldnt quite tell where some of the pins where especially for the front of the thigh.

Perhaps as further info, will mark it out once i got everything sorted out.

now i got it revealed i can do the maintenance stuff like you said...

[seti88]

Glad you finally got it apart. Glue in the socket is what caused my issues as well.

mind boggling...then i realised they may have assembled the hip to the metal rod by dabbing a bit of bonding agent and pressing the 'completed closed leg' to the metal rod....

i dont thk this problem would happen if they bonded the plastic piece first to the rod (let it cure) and then closed up the leg.

I couldnt see it as part of their process explanation, but quite literally thats one of the way to get overspill of bonding agent into the socket area...

just like squishing a sandwhich together ur bound to get juice running out...

[mickyg]

I don't understand why it's needed at all. The plastic cap needs no bonding agent to the metal part in any way; the socket should hold the entire assembly together just fine. Boggles my mind.

Although, judging by the pic chaotic yeti posted before, maybe it's that way due to the plastic part being slightly bigger than a hemisphere? But again, why do it that way?

Edited September 12, 2015 by mickyg

[koonfasa]

Right now, I'm playing with the Koenig.

and this is with my rabbit. When Bandai makes their 0A, it'll have a stand won't it.

Edited September 12, 2015 by koonfasa

[seti88]

I don't understand why it's needed at all. The plastic cap needs no bonding agent to the metal part in any way; the socket should hold the entire assembly together just fine. Boggles my mind.

Although, judging by the pic chaotic yeti posted before, maybe it's that way due to the plastic part being slightly bigger than a hemisphere? But again, why do it that way?

I thk the adhesive was meant to avoid the ball rattling in the metal socket or provide some form of pressure against the half metal ball.

i have updated findings in the maintenance thread, http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=41401&page=2#entry1221873 as not everyone may be interested to read it here.

The plastic ball certainly looks like ill fitting, it looks bigger than the metal half ball and i also had problems getting it to sit flush against the metal half ball.

[spanner]

I wonder if that half plastic ball is intended to create a small amount of internal friction within the joint providing additional tightness and a smooth feel when moving the leg around on that joint? The plastic ball may be more wear resistant than a metal ball and metal on metal may feel quite harsh and wear too quickly and become loose sooner.. I dunno.. this is just a piss in the wind guess..

As mickyg said its puzzling to understand why its actually there seeing that it appears to be a flawed design creating a weak point for the toy..

[KH355hamdi]

Played with my 0A and 0D today.

Let's sway.

The unicorns

[Chronocidal]

The plastic ball certainly looks like ill fitting, it looks bigger than the metal half ball and i also had problems getting it to sit flush against the metal half ball.

This really makes all kinds of sense. If the ball socket is molded to fit one size sphere, and then you build the ball joint out of two half-spheres of different sizes.... well, what do you think will happen?

Only a few options really.. and in this case, if the plastic half is bigger than the metal half, it might pretty much explain everything.

1. The plastic half is too big, spreading the joint out and letting the metal half slip out of the socket.

2. Oh no, the metal part isn't staying in! We'll have to glue it into the ball to keep it from slipping out so easily.

3. Oh no, the glue leaked out and now the joints are sticking, and the whole thing is a mess. Oh, and the glue isn't enough to keep the peg in the ball.

Bottom line? All the quality control in the world isn't going to save you if you can't even mold the parts in the correct size.

[seti88]

I wonder if that half plastic ball is intended to create a small amount of internal friction within the joint providing additional tightness and a smooth feel when moving the leg around on that joint? The plastic ball may be more wear resistant than a metal ball and metal on metal may feel quite harsh and wear too quickly and become loose sooner.. I dunno.. this is just a piss in the wind guess..

As mickyg said its puzzling to understand why its actually there seeing that it appears to be a flawed design creating a weak point for the toy..

Plastic on metal provides better friction than metal on metal imho. I expect metal on metal will give you real smooth/floppy joints .

In this 0a case anway, i thk its more a matter of ill fitting plastic bits that caused plastic to stick to metal and for sockets not to close tighter..

The tolerences for ball diameters were exceeded at a very important part increasing the impact of failure significantly...

Played with my 0A and 0D today.

Let's sway.

looks like figure skating valks on ice show...

This really makes all kinds of sense. If the ball socket is molded to fit one size sphere, and then you build the ball joint out of two half-spheres of different sizes.... well, what do you think will happen?

Only a few options really.. and in this case, if the plastic half is bigger than the metal half, it might pretty much explain everything.

1. The plastic half is too big, spreading the joint out and letting the metal half slip out of the socket.

2. Oh no, the metal part isn't staying in! We'll have to glue it into the ball to keep it from slipping out so easily.

3. Oh no, the glue leaked out and now the joints are sticking, and the whole thing is a mess. Oh, and the glue isn't enough to keep the peg in the ball.

Bottom line? All the quality control in the world isn't going to save you if you can't even mold the parts in the correct size.

now that you summarised it, yea it looks like an accident waiting to happen!

BTW, not to freak anyone out but it doesnt mean that all the valks would be affected. So please enjoy your valks responsibly

Edited September 12, 2015 by seti88

[Garfinkel]

Just picked up my 0A from the post office and its a beauty.

However

There is a mysterious rattle in the right leg when you tilt it. Sounds like a loose piece of plastic. Everything in the leg seems to function though.

My hips are fine, but the right ankle has zero tilt to it. It appears that the joint has been glued in the same way as people are finding with their hips.

I can't decide what to do about it. Contact HLJ and see what they offer or, try some invasive surgery.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

The ankles are extremely tight you should be able to move them.

[ChaoticYeti]

On the topic of expensive toys and the ball joints they utilise, let me show everyone the ball joints on the recent Bandai VF-19Advance toy:

IMG_20150825_1509361.jpg

And both halves of the socket:

IMG_20150825_1509251.jpg

IMG_20150825_1509091.jpg

Look at where the screw holes are. With that assembly the socket can apply pressure to the ball. One of the downfalls of the arcadia setup is that there is only one screw and it can not apply enough pressure on the ball.

Thanks for the pics!

[Reïvaj]

Here's my full text review.

http://www.collectiondx.com/toy_review/2015/vf0a_phoenix_shin_kudo_version

Cool review as usual, Andrew. Thanks a lot.

[valhary]

second part of the preview of the vf 0s

http://www.metal-box.jp/blog/

[ChaoticYeti]

Skulls still look like stickers. At this point I wouldn't say we can assume they will be tampo.