Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 12 - READ 1st POST

[Saruta]

Mirage's stare at Freyja there was pretty telling.

I seem to have missed that one - care to point out a timestamp?

[Marzan]

I seem to have missed that one - care to point out a timestamp?

18:33.

[MisaForever]

Veffidas' daughter. The drummer got married to Bobby. Calling it.

LOL!!! Quite possible.

[Saruta]

18:33.

yes indeed, thanks!

Honestly, the love triangle seems a bit contrived to me. I mean, I certainly understand Freyja's crush. But Mirage is a bit too much of by-the-book tsundere. (And Hayate does not seem to be thinking about "this stuff" at all, somewhat like series!Alto).

[Bryan Cranston]

Riveting stuff. The scale and emotion of it all really keeps you on the edge of your seat. The take-off scene with the robot? Breathtaking.

I wonder if our characters will find love. Love is a tricky business, sometimes you don't realize it's there even if it's right in front of you. I hope the heart girl and the pilot girl will express their feelings, but it's hard! I'll be wishing them the best.

[Valkyrie addict]

Nice build up episode

I just hope next episode is an action filled and not a last 5min of mech action, cut scene, and it's over.

[Windrider]

Rewatched the episode with subs and was disappointed to confirm that Ernest Johnson's physical stature is inversely proportional to his talents as a soldier.

Ernest's prowess in fleet combat was of an idiomatic expression that really doesn't translate well into English. He was always fighting for the losing side thus the 100 loses in 100 battles title given to him. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a lousy commander.

[Vision33r]

Mirage seemed a bit embarrassed about revealing to Hayate that she's not as talented. I don't think there's any subtle love triangle yet, she's just not comfortable revealing that with Freyja being there. She even asked why she is hiding. She just seem very overwhelmed with the responsibility at hand that Messer's journal mentioned her weakness.

[cwmodels]

This scene in the episode got me...

First of all they look like they going on a roller coaster ride.

Second, seeing the different size seat belts & the safety bar bent out of perspective without padding on it makes me think that shoddy union work still exist in the Macross Universe and Macross Elysion is built by the cheapest contract bidder.

Edited June 21, 2016 by cwmodels

[Zinjo]

This scene in the episode got me...

First of all they look like they going on a roller coaster ride.

Second, seeing the different size seat belts & the safety bar bent out of perspective without padding on it makes me think that shoddy union work still exist in the Macross Universe and Macross Elysion is built by the cheapest contract bidder.

A more likely reason is that with all the more imporant bits to animate, a safety bar was the least important on the priority list...

[Scyla]

Watched it yesterday. It was a good build-up episode after the last one was so emotion heavy. I loved the shot at the end where the Elysion is transforming although I'm not sure if I like the shape of the Storm Attack mode. The proportions seemed out of whack from the bottom up shots. To much leg not enough torso and arms. But this could be done for a dramatic effect showing how tall the Elysion really is.

I'm really looking forward to the next episode!

[Tochiro]

Sorry to keep you waiting!

Despite technical difficulties and members missing in action, the SpeakerPODcast Crew is here to talk about Macross Delta episode 12. Featuring a special guest from the Repacked Podcast!

http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-53-macrossΔ-ep-12-spoilercast/

[MisaForever]

This scene in the episode got me...

First of all they look like they going on a roller coaster ride.

Second, seeing the different size seat belts & the safety bar bent out of perspective without padding on it makes me think that shoddy union work still exist in the Macross Universe and Macross Elysion is built by the cheapest contract bidder.

Wow. That looks like the most depressing coaster ever. It must run at 2mph and in a straight line.

[Zinjo]

Watched it yesterday. It was a good build-up episode after the last one was so emotion heavy. I loved the shot at the end where the Elysion is transforming although I'm not sure if I like the shape of the Storm Attack mode. The proportions seemed out of whack from the bottom up shots. To much leg not enough torso and arms. But this could be done for a dramatic effect showing how tall the Elysion really is.

I'm really looking forward to the next episode!

That is a throw back to Miyatake's design for the NMCV carrier and to give it a "new gen" look.

[guyxxed]

I liked this episode, as it takes the next logical steps in bringing NUNS into the conflict and the bad guys using some unconventional tactics to change up their game.

I can't argue with the complaints that too many episodes have ended in the middle of action that needed an on screen wrap up, or that there were a few too many times that one side or the other had an advantage that they really should have pressed, but the actions each side took in this episode made sense to me. Or, at least, made enough sense within the context of the story that I'm not going to quibble with them.

The NUNS plan is extremely logical, I'm both surprised and pleased that the story went this way. I expect that the bombs will be set off and that we'll soon have ecological damage and native unrest as Ragna suffers a scar similar to the one Windermere has. The shafts leading to the planet's core aren't just for show and blowing up transdimensional ruins with any type of explosive isn't likely to go well. That would be a great way to up the stakes on both sides (damage to the home of the heroes, and a setback to the villain's plans in taking away one spoke of their wheel), plus it could lead to the next big twist, which I'm expecting to be an Epsilon plot or possibly some overtechnology bugaboo that threatens everyone. Time will tell.

I'm a little disappointed in Mirage acting so schoolgirlish. Even she calls herself out on it, but it would be nice to see her step into the leadership role a little more strongly. I get that she has self doubts, but that doesn't mean she has to act like a shrinking violet.

Really liked seeing the other pilots of Chaos and hope they get more than just background roles. I don't think we need anymore main characters, but I'd like to see the rest of Ragna branch be something other than just off screen cyphers. They should be like the ground crew where we see familiar faces and get some interaction from time to time. If they're just cannon fodder, well, let us get to know them a little so that it stings when they die.

The take off sequence of the Elysion was ridiculous, as noted above, but very, very cool. The slaughter of all life in the harbor is a small, small price to pay for such an awesome launch.

[Zinjo]

I liked this episode, as it takes the next logical steps in bringing NUNS into the conflict and the bad guys using some unconventional tactics to change up their game.

I can't argue with the complaints that too many episodes have ended in the middle of action that needed an on screen wrap up, or that there were a few too many times that one side or the other had an advantage that they really should have pressed, but the actions each side took in this episode made sense to me. Or, at least, made enough sense within the context of the story that I'm not going to quibble with them.

The NUNS plan is extremely logical, I'm both surprised and pleased that the story went this way. I expect that the bombs will be set off and that we'll soon have ecological damage and native unrest as Ragna suffers a scar similar to the one Windermere has. The shafts leading to the planet's core aren't just for show and blowing up transdimensional ruins with any type of explosive isn't likely to go well. That would be a great way to up the stakes on both sides (damage to the home of the heroes, and a setback to the villain's plans in taking away one spoke of their wheel), plus it could lead to the next big twist, which I'm expecting to be an Epsilon plot or possibly some overtechnology bugaboo that threatens everyone. Time will tell.

I'm a little disappointed in Mirage acting so schoolgirlish. Even she calls herself out on it, but it would be nice to see her step into the leadership role a little more strongly. I get that she has self doubts, but that doesn't mean she has to act like a shrinking violet.

Really liked seeing the other pilots of Chaos and hope they get more than just background roles. I don't think we need anymore main characters, but I'd like to see the rest of Ragna branch be something other than just off screen cyphers. They should be like the ground crew where we see familiar faces and get some interaction from time to time. If they're just cannon fodder, well, let us get to know them a little so that it stings when they die.

The take off sequence of the Elysion was ridiculous, as noted above, but very, very cool. The slaughter of all life in the harbor is a small, small price to pay for such an awesome launch.

I am leaning toward a suspicion Seto mentioned in the Mecha thread, that the ruins may be antenna designed as a protection shield for the cluster from the Var. A condition first discovered by the long gone PC colonists of the region. By destroying one node, it will create a gap that will let the Var rage unchecked in the region. The "artifact" may have been a projector for an Anima Spiritia soldier to calm the disease back in the day. The Windermereans are playing with a torch they know little about and these events may well burn everyone in the process.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Zinjo

[sh9000]

Another great episode.

[UN Spacy]

How long will it take to recharge the fold drive?

Will the Elysion engage the NUNS fleet at Alshahal?

Please don't tell me they're magically skip that portion and they're back at Ragna at the beginning of episode 13.

[Mommar]

yes indeed, thanks!

Honestly, the love triangle seems a bit contrived to me. I mean, I certainly understand Freyja's crush. But Mirage is a bit too much of by-the-book tsundere. (And Hayate does not seem to be thinking about "this stuff" at all, somewhat like series!Alto).

Actually, it makes perfect sense why Mirage would be attracted to him. He's everything she's been striving to be. She knows by-the-book flying isn't working and she's trying to live up to the legacy of her Grandparents, who were anything but by-the-book. He's precisely what she needs.

[azrael]

...Please don't tell me they're magically skip that portion and they're back at Ragna at the beginning of episode 13.

Hopefully they don't skip it.

[Seto Kaiba]

How long will it take to recharge the fold drive?

Good question... that seems to depend on the distance you want to go, the size of the ship, and (peripherally) the amount of energy you can either generate in excess of the ship's needs or can afford to divert from other systems.

Al Shahal is only about 30 light years from Ragna, per Hayate back in Ep1, so I'd expect the Macross Elysion to be able to pull a U-turn and take off in hot pursuit of the Sigur Valens and Windermere's fleet in fairly short order if they don't end up embroiled in a fight with Al Shahal's now-mind controlled New UN Spacy fleet. That'll be the biggest potential delay, though I wonder if the reason the Windermere fleet's ships have a different visual effect for fold jumps is that they're using zero-time fold systems. If so, that'd give the Windermereans a bit of an advantage since they'd be able to make the 30 light year trip to Ragna more quickly than the conventional fold system of the Macross Elysion.

Will the Elysion engage the NUNS fleet at Alshahal?

Please don't tell me they're magically skip that portion and they're back at Ragna at the beginning of episode 13.

"I hope so" and "I hope not", respectively.

[Zinjo]

Actually, it makes perfect sense why Mirage would be attracted to him. He's everything she's been striving to be. She knows by-the-book flying isn't working and she's trying to live up to the legacy of her Grandparents, who were anything but by-the-book. He's precisely what she needs.

I like to believe Max had amazing situational awareness which is what made him such a genius pilot. He could anticipate and react to the flow of a battle faster and better than any of his peers.

Good question... that seems to depend on the distance you want to go, the size of the ship, and (peripherally) the amount of energy you can either generate in excess of the ship's needs or can afford to divert from other systems.

Al Shahal is only about 30 light years from Ragna, per Hayate back in Ep1, so I'd expect the Macross Elysion to be able to pull a U-turn and take off in hot pursuit of the Sigur Valens and Windermere's fleet in fairly short order if they don't end up embroiled in a fight with Al Shahal's now-mind controlled New UN Spacy fleet. That'll be the biggest potential delay, though I wonder if the reason the Windermere fleet's ships have a different visual effect for fold jumps is that they're using zero-time fold systems. If so, that'd give the Windermereans a bit of an advantage since they'd be able to make the 30 light year trip to Ragna more quickly than the conventional fold system of the Macross Elysion.

I suspect it would also depend on if the Elysion's fold drive utilized any fold quartz or not. At this point we don't know how old the Elysion's design is. Whether it's systems pre-date the events of Frontier or not? I would suspect she does pre-date the late 2050's as the briar patch of faults surrounding Windermere is an obstacle to a direct assault on the world and fold quarts provides a ship the ability to cut through said faults.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Zinjo

[RedWolf]

Actually, it makes perfect sense why Mirage would be attracted to him. He's everything she's been striving to be. She knows by-the-book flying isn't working and she's trying to live up to the legacy of her Grandparents, who were anything but by-the-book. He's precisely what she needs.

Not to mention by her grandmother's standards asking for rematch is much like asking for a date.

It's funny that Freyja was having a strange look when Hayate said to Mirage she has him just as he said he'll protect Freyja. On the other front he gave Mirage a hope spot then took it away mentioning Arad and Chuck. It feels like a friend zone. Freyja knows the feelings Mirage is having as she just felt it before. They are both professional but there is an undeclared rivalry between the two now. Hayate doesn't have a clue about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

I suspect it would also depend on if the Elysion's fold drive utilized any fold quartz or not. At this point we don't know how old the Elysion's design is. Whether it's systems pre-date the events of Frontier or not? I would suspect she does pre-date the late 2050's as the briar patch of faults surrounding Windermere is an obstacle to a direct assault on the world and fold quarts provides a ship the ability to cut through said faults.

IMO, it's a safe bet that the Macross Elysion and most of the other ships in this series, with the possible exception of the Sigur Valens and Windermerean fleet, are using conventional fold systems instead of the fold quartz-enhanced zero-time fold technology pioneered in 2059. Between the New UN Government's trade restrictions on fold quartz and humanity lacking the technological means to synthesize the stuff, it'd probably be prohibitively expensive if not downright impossible for even a well-to-do civilian corporation to outfit its ships with fold quartz-enhanced fold systems.

If the brief looks we've had at the VF-31A Kairos are anything to go by, it looks like Kaos was only willing to splurge on enough fold quartz to outfit five VF-31's with fold wave systems. (Which is fine, since that'd be consistent with the reasons the YF-29 didn't see mass-production, being that its fold wave system needed a vast quantity of fold quartz.)

[cwmodels]

I'm a little disappointed in Mirage acting so schoolgirlish. Even she calls herself out on it, but it would be nice to see her step into the leadership role a little more strongly. I get that she has self doubts, but that doesn't mean she has to act like a shrinking violet.

It's funny that Freyja was having a strange look when Hayate said to Mirage she has him just as he said he'll protect Freyja. On the other front he gave Mirage a hope spot then took it away mentioning Arad and Chuck. It feels like a friend zone. Freyja knows the feelings Mirage is having as she just felt it before. They are both professional but there is an undeclared rivalry between the two now. Hayate doesn't have a clue about it.

How I perceive the triangle so far...

Edited June 21, 2016 by cwmodels

[Seto Kaiba]

How I perceive the triangle so far...

Pretty much how I view it, except instead of a wooshing noise Hayate's brain is looping Safety Dance by Men Without Hats.

[RedWolf]

I am leaning toward a suspicion Seto mentioned in the Mecha thread, that the ruins may be antenna designed as a protection shield for the cluster from the Var. A condition first discovered by the long gone PC colonists of the region. By destroying one node, it will create a gap that will let the Var rage unchecked in the region. The "artifact" may have been a projector for an Anima Spiritia soldier to calm the disease back in the day. The Windermereans are playing with a torch they know little about and these events may well burn everyone in the process.

Maybe but I'm drawing a parallel between ruin spring water with the Oasis water on Ouroboros which served as a cure for V-type Fold Bacteria. Going by the end of Frontier with Brera landing near a Protoculture thingy like the stones on Mayan island the Protoculture had face to face contact with the Vajra. People would be inevitably infected. These ruins could serve as sources of water making Fold Bacteria not lethal. The Protoculture may have learned this from Zola where Galactic Whales graveyard hot spring water is a cure all. Galactic Whales is another fold capable species with bacteria in their bodies. Bacteria on Zola is deadly to those not immune if their wounds are not disinfected quickly.

[Zinjo]

Maybe but I'm drawing a parallel between ruin spring water with the Oasis water on Ouroboros which served as a cure for V-type Fold Bacteria. Going by the end of Frontier with Brera landing near a Protoculture thingy like the stones on Mayan island the Protoculture had face to face contact with the Vajra. People would be inevitably infected. These ruins could serve as sources of water making Fold Bacteria not lethal. The Protoculture may have learned this from Zola where Galactic Whales graveyard hot spring water is a cure all. Galactic Whales is another fold capable species with bacteria in their bodies. Bacteria on Zola is deadly to those not immune if their wounds are not disinfected quickly.

I see where you are going, but the Var is a virus not a bacteria. At this point we have no idea if the PC in the region ever found a cure. There is a possibility they were able to control the symptoms if Seto's theory is correct.

[RedWolf]

I see where you are going, but the Var is a virus not a bacteria. At this point we have no idea if the PC in the region ever found a cure. There is a possibility they were able to control the symptoms if Seto's theory is correct.

By episode 9 Kaname gives an exposition that combining Windermerean apples and Ruin waters it creates Seidznole. This chemical causes explosive growth of Fold Bacteria in a person thus leading to Var syndrome.

Closest thing we saw of this before Macross Delta was with that rabid Hydra cat at Island 3 in Macross Frontier.

[Roy Focker]

Did the animation quality go down in this episode? It seemed to be lacking this time.

[cwmodels]

Did the animation quality go down in this episode? It seemed to be lacking this time.

Yes it did. It's a dialogue heavy episode so they spent less. I've noticed this kind of up and downs with most shoji-directed productions. Bigger budget tends to be placed on episodes where songs & CGs are more necessary. This even dates back to Escaflowne days, where episode 19 looked dirt cheap but the very next one when there's royal wedding taking place, the art quality shot way back up.

There was also a noticeable quality difference between episode 1 of Delta and the rest of the episodes as well. The first episode looked like a movie production. The way the characters were drawn, the pacing, dynamics, camera works, and color palette had a stronger visual grandeur than the rest of the series. You put your money & your best guys at where it's needed!

Edited June 22, 2016 by cwmodels

[Kelsain]

So I was finally able to watch some Delta on the big screen tv. Ooh, that's nice.

I watched 12 first, then some of the 1st episode, as well. I noticed a couple things this time that I hadn't before:

1) when the Sigur Valens folds in to the Al Shalal system, it looks like all the other Windermere ships are emerging from the same fold window - Babylon 5 style.

2) in episode 1, the knights are shown folding into the system with the same blue cloud fold effect.

I wonder if the SV is able to fold other vessels to a targeted location, kind of like the big Garmilas ship in SB Yamato. Or perhaps the 262's have some fold quartz device that links them to the SV's navigation systems & fold drive.

I also think the "return to the branch" line is a metaphorical way to say return to base. The knights are sent out to ride the wind for the glory of Windermere. They love their bird imagery, so what would a bird do when it's done flying?

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe but I'm drawing a parallel between ruin spring water with the Oasis water on Ouroboros which served as a cure for V-type Fold Bacteria. Going by the end of Frontier with Brera landing near a Protoculture thingy like the stones on Mayan island the Protoculture had face to face contact with the Vajra. People would be inevitably infected. These ruins could serve as sources of water making Fold Bacteria not lethal. The Protoculture may have learned this from Zola where Galactic Whales graveyard hot spring water is a cure all. Galactic Whales is another fold capable species with bacteria in their bodies. Bacteria on Zola is deadly to those not immune if their wounds are not disinfected quickly.

Eh... the parallel you've been trying to draw here is a false one though. You're conflating several different, entirely unrelated illnesses and their equally-unrelated remedies.

On Zola, the local bacteria that are so inimical to humans don't come from the galactic whales... but their replication rate is somehow boosted by the presence of the galactic whales. Whether the hot spring that Elma took Basara to had any actual role in his recovery is unclear, since he'd already been treated in a hospital and snapped out of his semiconscious state suddenly after remembering the whale song. There's nothing to indicate the waters in the hot spring actually possess any healing effects at all ("healing" hot springs are popular in Japanese folklore but have little-to-no basis in science).

On Uroboros, Sheryl's illness wasn't the result of her v-type infection but rather a locally-caught disease that was treated not with water from the oasis at the northern edge of the Sierra desert, but with medicine made from the species of cactus that grows near the oasis.

The fold bacterium that causes Var syndrome in Macross Delta is not the same microorganism as the Vajra bacterium (aka V-type bacterium). The V-type bacterium was absolutely deadly to humanoids unless the infection occurred in the intestines. The fold bacterium that causes Var syndrome doesn't seem to be in any way harmful to humans unless stimulated to reproduce at an abnormally high rate by seidznole-221 or certain types of high-intensity biological fold waves. Whether they're a part of the sub-Protoculture species' natural microbiome or possibly a natural mutation caused by exposure to super dimension space is not clear, but nobody in the series seems to be at all worried about the presence of fold bacteria in their bodies... whereas in Frontier, having a v-type infection was a serious brown trousers moment that led to blood screenings for anyone who came in contact with the Vajra.

I wonder if the SV is able to fold other vessels to a targeted location, kind of like the big Garmilas ship in SB Yamato. Or perhaps the 262's have some fold quartz device that links them to the SV's navigation systems & fold drive.

I also think the "return to the branch" line is a metaphorical way to say return to base. The knights are sent out to ride the wind for the glory of Windermere. They love their bird imagery, so what would a bird do when it's done flying?

It's possible... I speculated initially that they were using something similar to the "fold stones" on Uroboros that provided teleportation around the planet.

I'll admit, I had never considered that possible meaning for "branch". It seems so bloody obvious now, but until you said it it never occurred to me. Bravo!

[azrael]

There was also a noticeable quality difference between episode 1 of Delta and the rest of the episodes as well. The first episode looked like a movie production. The way the characters were drawn, the pacing, dynamics, camera works, and color palette had a stronger visual grandeur than the rest of the series. You put your money your best guys on where it's needed!

It is the pilot episode. They won't draw you in if the first thing you see looks like a pile of crap.

Sit-down viewing.

I'm gonna agree with Seto and echo the negative review. I would agree with the NUNS weasel. Nuke the ruins. I suspect Windermere did blow their ruins but they likely used something bigger. A smaller, focused detonation might be enough.

With Gramia running, I guess he doesn't want to play fair like Ernest said he use to talk up. I'm gonna say it again, Windermere needs to suffer a "L" on their record. Otherwise, this is gonna get boring, really fast. The only reason Windermere is hijacking forces is they know they would lose a straight fight. Their fleet is made up of only small ships. Their only big ship is the refitted Protoculture ship, which is also not something of their own making, i.e., they essentially hijacked it like they've been doing to all the opposition. And with what, 1 SDF-type vessel coming at them, they run. The combine Al Shahal and Windermere fleet would likely be able to take on a small task force coming at them. What did Messer say, there's no such thing as a fair fight in combat? So Gramia is saying even with 2 fleets, he wouldn't win and decides to play tag??

[Zinjo]

It's possible... I speculated initially that they were using something similar to the "fold stones" on Uroboros that provided teleportation around the planet.

It is possible that the NUNS base that was destroyed sat on a deposit of fold quartz and that is what caused the scar. If that is the case, the Windermerians may have a cache of fold quartz at their disposal and with the assistance of the Epsilon Corp, were able to install enhanced fold drives aboard the Aerial Knight SV-262 fighters.

Essentially a fold in the 2050's Macross era is a wormhole and if you have a ship capable of opening a large enough aperture, a larger force could piggy back into SD space from that point. It would however, require the same ship to open the exit portal. Prior to MF, folds were depicted like instantaneous jumps rather than transits to and from SD space.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Zinjo