The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[sketchley]

See the above, but really... we're saying the same thing, and have been for a while now.

Uhm, like...

no.

Frothymug and myself have been saying that the Vajra have been acquiring a raw material that is transformed into fold quartz.

Fold quartz does not equal fold carbon... nor do raw materials equate to fold quartz in an "unrefined" or "low purity" state.

If you had only used "reform", then yes, we would have been saying the same thing. But alas, you've continually stressed that the Vajra only refine what you're implying is a naturally occurring substance. Ref:

(that the Vajra could mine unrefined fold quartz from)

[Seto Kaiba]

Fold quartz does not equal fold carbon... nor do raw materials equate to fold quartz in an "unrefined" or "low purity" state.

Which, in short, is exactly the opposite of the definition for the term that I'm looking at... what source are you using for the definition?

[sketchley]

Ie: Pash #02's: "It is a purple, crystal-shaped material that is formed inside the Vajra's bodies."

Specifically, the verb is: 生成する

Which translates as: creation; generation; formation; derivation

(source: http://ryouko.imsb.n...-bin/wwwjdic?1F )

Dude, what other definitions can refine and non-pure have when referring to materials? Silly. Dude.

The problem is not your definitions or their subtle nuances, the problem is you are using words that describe TOTALLY different actions.

Refine: http://dictionary.re...m/browse/refine

Pure: http://dictionary.re...m/browse/purity (1st definition)

Dude.

Edited February 5, 2012 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Specifically, the verb is: 生成する

Which translates as: creation; generation; formation; derivation

"Derivation" would fit with the description and definition I've found (in Chronicle #49, pg23, etc.) that describes fold quartz as a rare but naturally occurring substance, which is gathered by the combat types (in a manner similar to social insects like bees) and reconstituted/refined/purified by Queen-type Vajra. That the Vajra are processing a naturally occurring substance to make this stuff is indisputable, because the gathering of the material is shown directly in the series. The way it's described, the Vajra are taking the crude ore they mine (which is described as having "many impurities"), and deriving the high-purity fold quartz material from it by having the Vajra Queen biologically process the ore. Calling the process "refinement" fits the description perfectly, even if it isn't used in the definition directly. I suppose "purification" could fit too, but "refinement" seems more appropriate, since they're referring to the raw material as ore.

(As a side note, every definition I've yet found for the term "fold carbon" lists it as being a low-purity form of fold quartz.)

Edited February 5, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

"Derivation" would fit with the description and definition I've found (in Chronicle #49, pg23, etc.)

<Sigh>

You know, most people have ripped the pages out of their covers and organized that publication the way the publisher intended... by mechanic, character, etc..

It's almost like you're trying to obfuscate your source...

Edited February 5, 2012 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

You know, most people have ripped the pages out of their covers and organized that publication the way the publisher intended... by mechanic, character, etc..

Yeah, yeah... and I did too. Right now, I don't have the luxury of being able to consult my binders, and have to make do with the cropped and partially cleaned-up scans that I made last year to use as art stock for future M3 updates. (It's a long story... circumstances beyond my control.)

Anyhoo, the sheet in question is the Vajra world guide sheet. The one with the diagram of the Vajra life cycle on it.

(Erm... telling you the publication, issue, and page number is pretty much the polar opposite of obfuscation. That's a proper citation format. There's really no need to get snippy, I'm just trying to reconcile my findings from Chronicle and the series with what you've found in a publication that isn't part of my collection. You usually bring good info to the table, and with M3 updates in the works, I just want to make sure we have the most accurate data we can get for the "Macrosspedia".)

[Athenian]

Hey folks, soaking-wet noob here. I just started reacquainting myself with the original series and am happy to have found this forum. I will accept dumb answers (or links) to these dumb questions:

Does the Supervision Army figure in any of the sequel projects?

Has anyone attempted to map out exactly how and/or where Macross City was configured within the ship?

Is there a recommended long-form review of the series, a la the Onion AV Club's "re-watch" columns?

How the heck did Misa survive the final conflagration in 'Farewell To Tenderness', and did anyone else make it out?

[VF-15 Banshee]

Hey folks, soaking-wet noob here. I just started reacquainting myself with the original series and am happy to have found this forum. I will accept dumb answers (or links) to these dumb questions:

Does the Supervision Army figure in any of the sequel projects?

From the Macross Mecha Manual: The name given to Protoculture and Zentradi people mentally controlled to fight for the Protodeviln (from Macross 7), a race of spiritual energy life forms from a sub-universe outside the known universe. Eventually the Supervision Army and the Protodeviln are defeated, but remnants of the Supervision Army still exist even to the present.

Really only in passing.

Has anyone attempted to map out exactly how and/or where Macross City was configured within the ship?

The DYRL version was in the legs/engine sections. Not sure about the TV version.

[hulagu]

Hey folks, soaking-wet noob here. I just started reacquainting myself with the original series and am happy to have found this forum. I will accept dumb answers (or links) to these dumb questions:

Does the Supervision Army figure in any of the sequel projects?

No, but there is speculation about Macross 7's secret backstory and the origins of the Supervision Army.

Has anyone attempted to map out exactly how and/or where Macross City was configured within the ship?

DYRL has the city in multiple layers situated in the legs.

Is there a recommended long-form review of the series, a la the Onion AV Club's "re-watch" columns?

How the heck did Misa survive the final conflagration in 'Farewell To Tenderness', and did anyone else make it out?

What final conflagration? Quamzin's ship clearly misses the bridge, shears one of the carrier arms and crashes behind the Macross.

[Athenian]

Thanks for the quick answers, folks!

What final conflagration? Quamzin's ship clearly misses the bridge, shears one of the carrier arms and crashes behind the Macross.

Fair enough, and I gather the ship gets restored later on. But how did she get out (without a scratch on her) and where's the rest of the bridge crew?

[Sir Galahad®]

We could safely assume that the she got out much later after the attact and the focus was on her instead of the rest of the crew... The bridge Crew Survive, even one of the bridge bunnies (Kim Kabirov) became a General

Does the Supervision Army figure in any of the sequel projects?

Hmmmm... nothing I could recall in the movies and OVA. Although there is a "New" Supervision Army that was headed by the Protodeviln in Macross 7... It has 49 episodes, the 2 encore episodes, the fleet of the strongest women, the macross 7 movie and the D7 OVA Series

Edited February 9, 2012 by Sir Galahad®

[Gubaba]

Thanks for the quick answers, folks!

Fair enough, and I gather the ship gets restored later on. But how did she get out (without a scratch on her) and where's the rest of the bridge crew?

They're around. Kim, Shammy, and Vanessa show up again in Macross 7-related material. Official documents also show that Captain Global performed Shammy's wedding.

[sketchley]

(...) That's a proper citation format. (...)

1. Aside from discussion on the publisher's intended format of the publication... no, you've not provided a proper citation. APA, MLA and other styles aside, you don't have basic things like the article's title or the date of publication.

"Derivation" would fit with the description and definition I've found (...)

2. translation is not the art of picking the word that best fits a predetermined result. It's about using the most common equivalent words in the target language (generally, the more common ones are the leftmost, and the rarer ones are the rightmost) and their context.

In the quote I provided, there is no context for derivation, as nothing is indicated as being used in the process of creating Fold Quartz.

(in Chronicle #49, pg23, etc.) that describes fold quartz as a rare but naturally occurring substance, which is gathered by the combat types (in a manner similar to social insects like bees) and reconstituted/refined/purified by Queen-type Vajra. That the Vajra are processing a naturally occurring substance to make this stuff is indisputable, because the gathering of the material is shown directly in the series. The way it's described, the Vajra are taking the crude ore they mine (which is described as having "many impurities"), and deriving the high-purity fold quartz material from it by having the Vajra Queen biologically process the ore.

3. No, it doesn't. In short, the article says that fold quartz doesn't exist in nature (フォールド・クォーツは自然界にはほとんど存在せず）　[more literally, practically doesn't exist], non-Vajra gather it from even the smallest Vajra form (末端バジュラの死骸からフォールド・クォーツの微細結晶が回収されている), only the Vajra Queen, which forms the core of the Vajra, can create it (バジュラ・クィーンと呼ばれるバジュラの中核的な個体のみが生成可能とされている), and that the Vajra Queen serves as a fold quartz creation plant (バジュラ・クイーンは群の中核で、フォールド・クォーツの生成プラントとなってはいる).

One could say that the Vajra do harvest it from other Vajra corpses, as it's apparently a valuable material that the non-Queen types need to fully participate in the Vajra society. But if so, the article doesn't say which Vajra caste does it. What we were shown in the series may have been Vajra harvesting it from another Vajra corpse, or simply getting it from a Vajra queen.

Not sure where you're getting the stuff about crude ore, mining, and having many impurities from... but the stuff about the bees is definitely wrong (バジュラ・クイーンは(...)群をう支配しているのではなく、共有意思によって行動しているに過ぎないと推定される).

(As a side note, every definition I've yet found for the term "fold carbon" lists it as being a low-purity form of fold quartz.)

Same page indicates that though the general Vajra have fold carbon, otherwise known as fold coal, it's not fold quartz and cannot be used for zero-time fold wave oscillations. It's also the same part (or parts) as the core of a fold device, and it's output is used by the general Vajra for such things as beam weapons, energy conversion armour, and normal folds.

Is fold carbon/coal low-purity fold quartz? The article doesn't say. And to be clear, It also does NOT say that fold carbon/coal is used in the fold quartz creation process.

There is no, repeat NO indication that Vajra, or anyone else for that matter, mine fold quartz, in any form, from dead stars. Which is what this debate has been about. See:

I would guess that there was a Vajra hive somewhere within a couple dozen or a couple hundred LY of Earth... possibly one where it could go unnoticed by virtue of a dead star (that the Vajra could mine unrefined fold quartz from)

Edited February 9, 2012 by sketchley

[azrael]

How the heck did Misa survive the final conflagration in 'Farewell To Tenderness', and did anyone else make it out?

Lemme guess...You watched Robotech?

[Athenian]

Lemme guess...You watched Robotech?

See my debut post in the Discovery Of Macross thread.

But the original series ending is even more oblique-- no mention of an escape pod or anything (Sir Galahad-- we can assumethat it's much later but the presentation of the episode doesn't actively support that reading). I was sure I'd discover that something had been cut, but no.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Athenian

[VF5SS]

No the final episode shows Kamjin's ship hitting the one of the arms of the Macross and not the bridge where she was currently occupying.

All things considered the Macross was pretty intact.

[Gubaba]

Simply put...the Bridge crew is fine.

Global goes on to officiate Shammy's wedding, and Kim, Shammy, and Vanessa all show up in Macross 7 Docking Festival.

[frothymug]

I think it's fairly accurate to compare the Vajra to social insects such as ants and bees. In the bees' case, they fly out, gather nectar from plants, and return it to the hive so they can create honey and other useful materials. Vajra gather raw materials and return it to the queen, so she can manufacture the fold quartz and use it in creating her eggs.

See, it doesn't take arguments or exhaustively long posts to offer an opinion.

[sketchley]

See, it doesn't take arguments or exhaustively long posts to offer an opinion.

<sigh> we were discussing facts, not opinions.

Now, if you want to discuss opinions... yes, you're is a valid one. I disagree with it, because my opinion is that the facts say that the Vajra, though seemingly organized in the same way, aren't actually existing in the same way. Something to do about the one consciousness in many bodies thing.

[Athenian]

Simply put...the Bridge crew is fine.

Global goes on to officiate Shammy's wedding, and Kim, Shammy, and Vanessa all show up in Macross 7 Docking Festival.

Thanks!

So, follow-up: for character continuity can I just jump from the original series to Macross 7?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Athenian

[sketchley]

Thanks!

So, follow-up: for character continuity can I just jump from the original series to Macross 7?

In short, yes.

[Gubaba]

Thanks!

So, follow-up: for character continuity can I just jump from the original series to Macross 7?

Yes, but Docking Festival is a drama CD, not part of the TV series. None of the original bridge crew shows up the series, although some other SDFM characters do.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Gubaba

[VF-15 Banshee]

Back in First Macross, did they have the ability to control QF-3000E Ghost fighters from Valkyries like the VE-1 and the VEFR-1?

[Jefuemon]

This question came to me from seeing an SV-51 model in an aircraft carrier diorama. As they were launched from a submarine, how the heck did they recover them after flying a mission?

[sketchley]

This question came to me from seeing an SV-51 model in an aircraft carrier diorama. As they were launched from a submarine, how the heck did they recover them after flying a mission?

I translated the MC article on that sub, and if memory serves, the sub must be on the surface, the SV-51 lands on it's deck, and a crane is used to return them to the horizontal launch tubes.

It should also be noted that not all SV-51 are capable being launched from the sub. Can't remember if specific details were mentioned, but it's most likely due to additional airframe reinforcement and anti-corrosion measures.

[Jefuemon]

Thanks!

[azrael]

Back in First Macross,

What is this "First Macross"? There's Super Dimension Fortress Macross or SDFM or Macross The First, but no "First Macross".

did they have the ability to control QF-3000E Ghost fighters from Valkyries like the VE-1 and the VEFR-1?

No.

[VF5SS]

I translated the MC article on that sub, and if memory serves, the sub must be on the surface, the SV-51 lands on it's deck, and a crane is used to return them to the horizontal launch tubes.

http://macross2.net/m3/macrosszero/auerstadt/auerstadt-lineart.gif

It doesn't seem to have much of a deck or a crane :3

Really all they have to do is land in Gerwalk mode and have some clamps that hold their feet while they switch back to fighter mode.

[Seto Kaiba]

2. translation is not the art of picking the word that best fits a predetermined result. It's about using the most common equivalent words in the target language (generally, the more common ones are the leftmost, and the rarer ones are the rightmost) and their context.

Actually, a good translator's aim is to preserve the meaning and format of the original work while also rendering it in such a way that it flows as naturally as possible in the target language. Simply picking the first entry in the dictionary doesn't always do the original work justice. <_<

3. No, it doesn't. In short, the article says that fold quartz doesn't exist in nature (フォールド・クォーツは自然界にはほとんど存在せず）　[more literally, practically doesn't exist],

*cough* I'm reminded of a statement about pots and kettles here...

One could say that the Vajra do harvest it from other Vajra corpses, as it's apparently a valuable material that the non-Queen types need to fully participate in the Vajra society. But if so, the article doesn't say which Vajra caste does it. What we were shown in the series may have been Vajra harvesting it from another Vajra corpse, or simply getting it from a Vajra queen.

Yes, it'd be a logical enough assumption that the Vajra reclaim fold quartz from their dead, though since it's tipped as being the means by which the Vajra communicate in the series, it feels like a bit of an understatement to say that the Vajra need it to "fully participate" in their society. As far as what we were shown in the series, it was one of the large, red, adult Vajra types digging in an asteroid for a fist-size chunk of glowing pink stone.

(The reference to social insects wasn't general, it was specific to their resource-gathering behavior... we both know full well the Vajra society isn't organized along those lines.)

Is fold carbon/coal low-purity fold quartz? The article doesn't say. And to be clear, It also does NOT say that fold carbon/coal is used in the fold quartz creation process.

I've seen it defined as such, that's why I brought it up.

There is no, repeat NO indication that Vajra, or anyone else for that matter, mine fold quartz, in any form, from dead stars. Which is what this debate has been about.

'cept in the series... y'know, that thing that all the written material is subordinate to.

(Bilrer tells Alto the Vajra collect raw fold quartz from stars and other stellar material in Ep23 of the Macross Frontier series.)

Edited February 11, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

'cept in the series... y'know, that thing that all the written material is subordinate to.

(Bilrer tells Alto the Vajra collect raw fold quartz from stars and other stellar material in Ep23 of the Macross Frontier series.)

Blah blah blah

What's the actual line, in Japanese?

[Reïvaj]

Blah blah blah

What's the actual line, in Japanese?

You tell us, please. You seem to know it well.

[sketchley]

You tell us, please. You seem to know it well.

Why? The onus is on the person trying to make the point, no?

[Reïvaj]

Why? The onus is on the person trying to make the point, no?

Yes, except that I think it’s you who’s trying to make a point now.

Seto Kaiba has already said what he thinks Mr. Bilrer explains to Alto in Ep23. As you replied that is blah, blah, blah I want to know why.

[sketchley]

Yes, except that I think it’s you who’s trying to make a point now.

I made my point. See the end of this post: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34315&view=findpost&p=956076

[VF5SS]

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v15886791bJJGG3Yq?h1=Macross+Frontier+23+%5BRAW%5D

here just figure out the time code and watch it ya silly people