Thoughts on Macross II

[Gubaba]

she's the penultimate epitome of Moe, no question about that...

Then who's the ultimate? Or do I not want to know...?

[VF5SS]

the entire cast of Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay-On

[VF-15 Banshee]

Hmm, my favorite band SCANDAL did some music for K-ON I think.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Macross II likes:

-mecha looks cool in robot and fighter modes.

-the little flying things that follow it (are they bits?)

-intro where the robot uses a shoulder cannon and does an awesome spin with attitude (much better than hikaru's spin in SDFM) and a revoltech-like pose lol

-ishtar (the nakedness is part of the culture shock I guess - maybe any remaining zentradi within human side will be distracted?)

-the main bad guy's mech looks cool. It just has this demonic looking appearance to it

-music is pretty good. (actually you hear some of it from mac f)

Oh yeah, my avatar is from mac II mainly because I want a yamato toy of this. The original SDFM is the best of all the macross stories imo

I think if macross II never came about we might not have seen macross 7 or II?

One thing I like is the legend of the Alus.

How it was really a symbol of bringing rather than used to kill. You never get to see a clear image of what the ship looks like and I supposed it was intended that way. You do get a glimpse of a ship but it is vague. I liked that bit as it added a bit of mystery to the show. It is not just the macross that saved people, (ie the military's focus on having the best technology "might = right" ideas) so when it got destroyed that meant the characters had to focus on what it represents more than the actual ship itself. The legends are just tales to teach people.

In some ways I like that idea more than the whole sound force thing in macross 7 where the fighting is just singing and using mystical energies. You can solve problems without military might. But that doesn't mean pacifism. You can still defend using conventional weapon. That's why I can still like this a little bit over 7. In 7 the military and conventional weapons pretty much become obsolete. lol

Edited October 17, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sdf2501]

I wanna subscribe to the theory that II is a fictional show within the Macross universe. If memory serves, a couple of the vocal songs from II appear in the 7 TV series so one would assume it fits in somewhere, even though it's been officially denied as a part of the timeline.

Edited November 2, 2011 by sdf2501

[frothymug]

That's a good point.

[Reïvaj]

I like that theory.

[Zinjo]

I wanna subscribe to the theory that II is a fictional show within the Macross universe. If memory serves, a couple of the vocal songs from II appear in the 7 TV series so one would assume it fits in somewhere, even though it's been officially denied as a part of the timeline.

I like to subscribe to the theory that Macross II is a "lost' colony world from the early days of exploration forced by their system's fold fault to develop their own next gen mecha. Hence the VF-2 derivatives as opposed to the VF-4 in the general Nue continuity.

If I were to bring it into the Nue continuity that is how I'd do it. It allows the series to maintain its identity and integrity with minimal "adjustments" and yet folds it into the Nue continuity with a reasonable explanation for the differences in mecha and story.

The military's control over civilian life is a result of extended martial law. The Mardook are an offshoot of the Supervision Army, etc...

[Reïvaj]

Interesting

[d3v]

I like to subscribe to the theory that Macross II is a "lost' colony world from the early days of exploration forced by their system's fold fault to develop their own next gen mecha. Hence the VF-2 derivatives as opposed to the VF-4 in the general Nue continuity.

If I were to bring it into the Nue continuity that is how I'd do it. It allows the series to maintain its identity and integrity with minimal "adjustments" and yet folds it into the Nue continuity with a reasonable explanation for the differences in mecha and story.

The military's control over civilian life is a result of extended martial law. The Mardook are an offshoot of the Supervision Army, etc...

Secret answer to what happened to the SDF2/Megaroad 1?

[raptormesh]

This may have to do with the fact that I watched Macross II before actually watching SDFM to completion, but it has my favorite macross songs. Also Ishtar made quite an impression to someone undergoing puberty at that time.

[Castel]

I like it fine. Not the best, not the worst of Macross.

Main problem is that it struggles to really find its own identity. It's the "Star Trek Next Generation first season syndrome" (STNGFSS ), too much similarities in the writing with its venerable and so popular big brother.

[pfunk]

If you fast forward to only the mecha parts its pretty good

[d3v]

IMO, Macross 2's main issues are the opposite of M7's. 7 ran for too long, meanwhile 2 ran for too short - should have been given the proper series treatment to allow it to develop the characters and plot properly. The story it was trying to tell seemed to be something that would better fit a TV series than a short OVA.

[Solidus Snake]

Macross II has a special and weird place in my heart. Back when I was a young sprite, I only new of Robotech (this was back in the early early days of the net where you had to use dial-up...aka the dark, but fun days). In any case, one day my brothers and I waltz into our local haystings and see "Robotech: the Next Generation" and "Robotech: Sentinels" on VHS. A little further down we see this odd VHS set: Macross II. "Oh cool," I think to myself, "This must be a continuation of the Macross saga. Time to find out what happened to Rick, Lisa and the SDF-3"

We get home and pop it in...lo be behold! It's not a continuation of the Macross Saga, it's something completely different. There's this guy named Hibiki Kanzaki, this takes place 80 years later, Earth isn't as fraked up as it was in the Robotech Masters---more importantly, the Veritechs are called Valkyries. In any case, we load up the internet and at the speed of 56k discover the truth about Macross and Robotech. This started me on my path to Macross, a week later I watched Plus and a couple of years later, I ended up watching Macross 7 in very very very shitty quality and then Zero and ended up rewatching Macross in its original form.

With all that said, to answer the question of what I think of Macross II? In all honesty, after watching it again very recently, it's not as bad as a lot of people claim. The animation is poor especially for the OVA, but the Valkyrie designs are pretty cool. It introduced some neat ideas into the franchise (the predecessor to the ghost-x9 for instance). The spin that the main character was not a pilot, but a reporter was very refreshing, also the fact that the enemy also used song was a great spin I think. Think about it, how do you defeat an enemy that uses your weapon against it? There was some bad writing in the script and it tried too hard to be DYRL rather than its own thing like we're so used to in other Macross entries. But overall, it's not that bad. I'd gladly watch it for a third time--or is it 4th? In any case, I think it needs more love and we need to love Ishtar more.

[Load Master]

I wanna subscribe to the theory that II is a fictional show within the Macross universe. If memory serves, a couple of the vocal songs from II appear in the 7 TV series so one would assume it fits in somewhere, even though it's been officially denied as a part of the timeline.

I subscribe to the slightly more controversial theory that Macross 7, Plus & Frontier exist only as fictional shows within the real Macross universe. The real Macross universe being the SDFM/MII/M2036 timeline only. For me no canon Macross material has come out since 1994.

For me Macross went in a really bad direction as soon as Kawamori tookover overall control (absolute power corrupts absolutely) and every show since Macross 7 hasn't "felt" like Macross to me anymore. Macross II did feel like Macross, the designs were excellent and it really seemed to exist in the same universe that the original had, everything seemed like a natural evolution, if not perfectly realised in animation due to budget constraints.

I would also like to point out that the music in Macross II was first class.

[Gubaba]

I subscribe to the slightly more controversial theory that Macross 7, Plus & Frontier exist only as fictional shows within the real Macross universe. The real Macross universe being the SDFM/MII/M2036 timeline only. For me no canon Macross material has come out since 1994.

For me Macross went in a really bad direction as soon as Kawamori tookover overall control (absolute power corrupts absolutely) and every show since Macross 7 hasn't "felt" like Macross to me anymore. Macross II did feel like Macross, the designs were excellent and it really seemed to exist in the same universe that the original had, everything seemed like a natural evolution, if not perfectly realised in animation due to budget constraints.

I've said this many times, but you DO realize that Kawamori was pretty much in control of SDFM TV and DYRL, and had almost nothing to do with Macross 7 besides coming up with the initial concept and designing the Valkyries, right...?

[Load Master]

I've said this many times, but you DO realize that Kawamori was pretty much in control of SDFM TV and DYRL, and had almost nothing to do with Macross 7 besides coming up with the initial concept and designing the Valkyries, right...?

But it was exactly the initial concept and candy colored valkyries with faces of Macross 7 that was the problem. It wasn't Macross, it was some wacky space show that Kawamori came up with and slapped the Macross name onto and that had a few overall plot elements of Macross tacked onto it at the end to justify it.

"Pretty much in control" of SDFMTV and DYRL is a pretty wild statement. I think there were a lot of talented people that made Macross what it was back in the `80s. The initial premise of SDFM was certainly not completely created by Kawamori, it was a collaborative effort and it shows in its quality.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Load Master

[VF5SS]

whatevs mang

opinions be opinions

all i know is when I introduced my friends to Macross, they all figured out Macross 7 was the macrossiest of them all until Frontier came around

even then, both are about neck and neck in terms of macrossness

[sketchley]

Macross 7 Valkyrie's are da' bomb. For one reason alone: economy of line. No VFs before or since are as eligently depicted. Sure, some may have more bells and whistles or be more or less appealing, but they're ALL more complicated.

But if you ask me, DYRL and Macross II are movies within the Macross universe. Fictional movies. Whereas SDFM, M7, M0, MF et al are fictional productions based on real events in the Macross universe.

[Gubaba]

But it was exactly the initial concept and candy colored valkyries with faces of Macross 7 that was the problem. It wasn't Macross, it was some wacky space show that Kawamori came up with and slapped the Macross name onto and that had a few overall plot elements of Macross tacked onto it at the end to justify it.

To each his own, I guess. I thought the overall concept was fine, but the writing and direction were often not the best.

"Pretty much in control" of SDFMTV and DYRL is a pretty wild statement. I think there were a lot of talented people that made Macross what it was back in the `80s. The initial premise of SDFM was certainly not completely created by Kawamori, it was a collaborative effort and it shows in its quality.

Again... http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=35259&view=findpost&p=918349

[Load Master]

To each his own, I guess. I thought the overall concept was fine,

Really?Thats interesting. Personally I think the story of an epic space war with Earth caught in the middle was a lot more fine. I thought the imputice for desiging a transforming fighter being the existance of giant aliens was also pretty damn fine. I thought the idea of human culture being used as a weapon, not a magical devastating weapon but a factor was pretty damn fine and even believable. I also thought the idea of culture as a weapon was balanced with the fact that good ol' nukes and a giant canon were still mankinds trump cards pretty damn cool.

Macross went from a gritty war story with background drama to a space hippy and his crazy gang inexplicably being better pilots than anyone in the military (newtypes??) and fighting space vampires/zombies.

Do you agree that Macross 7's concept is closer to Kawamori's single vision than SDFM was? I think in that thread you linked me to it's pretty clear it was. Therefore I stand by my assertion that absolute Kawamori corrupts Macross (original concepts) absolutely.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Load Master

[Gubaba]

Really?Thats interesting. Personally I think the story of an epic space war with Earth caught in the middle was a lot more fine. I thought the imputice for desiging a transforming fighter being the existance of giant aliens was also pretty damn fine. I thought the idea of human culture being used as a weapon, not a magical devastating weapon but a factor was pretty damn fine and even believable. I also thought the idea of culture as a weapon was balanced with the fact that good ol' nukes and a giant canon were still mankinds trump cards pretty damn cool.

Macross went from a gritty war story with background drama to a space hippy and his crazy gang inexplicably being better pilots than anyone in the military (newtypes??) and fighting space vampires/zombies.

Do you agree that Macross 7's concept is closer to Kawamori's single vision than SDFM was? I think in that thread you linked me to it's pretty clear it was. Therefore I stand by my assertion that absolute Kawamori corrupts Macross (original concepts) absolutely.

No, I don't agree.

As I said, pretty much every interview I've come across seems to put Kawamori at the head of the SDFM planning, but he himself appears to have been too busy working on Plus to do much of anything for Macross 7.

Can you point me to any primary material that says otherwise?

(I'd also object to your characterization of SDFM as "gritty." I find it pretty light-hearted, overall.)

[anime52k8]

Macross went from a gritty war story

[Load Master]

(I'd also object to your characterization of SDFM as "gritty." I find it pretty light-hearted, overall.)

Lighthearted at times but the deaths of virtually everyone on Earth from a laser bombardment (including young girls with flowers), the deaths of main characters from combat and aliens being swiss cheezed by a vulcan in full view of the camera makes SDFM look like Full Metal Jacket compared to M7.

[Gubaba]

Lighthearted at times but the deaths of virtually everyone on Earth from a laser bombardment (including young girls with flowers), the deaths of main characters from combat and aliens being swiss cheezed by a vulcan in full view of the camera makes SDFM look like Full Metal Jacket compared to M7.

Yeah...but I'd say that overall, Zero probably had the darkest tone.

[VF5SS]

80's gratuitous violence doesn't make you gritty. That's just how they did things for a period of time.

Old Macross was pretty lighthearted. If you're going to cherry pick the more extreme parts then we're not getting anywhere.

Gundam opens with all of Australia being blown up and you don't see people calling it gritty. No they reserve that for bleedin' 08th MS Team which has more love drama than most Gundam.

[Load Master]

On the contrary Tomino invented gritty anime and I've heard that said countless times. The main character body count in MS Gundam is testament to it.

So just to be sure no one is here is being contrarian for the sake of it? You're seriously saying that a large part of what made SDFM wasn't the gritty space war setting?

Back on topic I believe Macross II followed on better with that theme than any of the alternate series.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Load Master

[Gubaba]

So just to be sure no one is here is being contrarian for the sake of it?

Yeah, ONE of us is being contrarian...

[Load Master]

I think you just don't like the idea of someone rejecting your view of the Macross universe.

[VF5SS]

So just to be sure no one is here is being contrarian for the sake of it? You're seriously saying that a large part of what made SDFM wasn't the gritty space war setting?

Considering how many shows prior to it did the same thing, I'm guessing no.

[Load Master]

I give up. People are just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

[VF5SS]

Yeah cause you're not doing that either.

[Gubaba]

I think you just don't like the idea of someone rejecting your view of the Macross universe.

No, you can reject it all you want. It's opinion, after all. Mostly, I'm still waiting for you to show some kind proof that Kawamori wasn't responsible for the stuff you liked in SDFM, but was responsible for the stuff you didn't like in Mac7.

[Load Master]

If you say you can't see my original point that the basic premise of SDFM TV is much more gritty than that of Macross 7 then you are being obtuse on purpose and that is quite rude.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Load Master