Will Kawamori San do a redesign for the VF-1?

[Hurin]

Oh jesus lord !

All we needed was a Star Wars/StarTrek/LOTR fanboys debate in Macross world 

Man , please , don´t EVER compare things (i was gonna use another term but for the sake of politeness I´ll keep it to myself ) like SW or ST to Macross 

it´s like poeple can´t get american Sci-Fi series out of their heads

Though I agree that drawing comparisons with SW, ST & LOTR is stretching efforts in finding common comparable grounds, what's with all this "fanboy" bashing?

As far as I'm concerned everyone in here in MW is a Fan or a.k.a. SCI-FI geek (in various degrees). The effort guys like you make in attempt to degrade others by calling them "fanboys" is simply juvenile.

Not to mention that he's missing the point. The beauty of Macross is that it isn't like Western Sci-Fi. And, what I was pointing out was yet one more aspect of how different Macross is from those other franchises. Further, I was pointing out how making changes to existing storylines and/or Mecha designs might bring over some of the more unpalatable aspects of those franchises and their fanbases. But, silly me. . . as aptly demonstrated by these forums. . . we already have long, heated, and pointless arguments about minutia that doesn't really matter.

H

Edited February 1, 2004 by Hurin

[Hurin]

Curious, Do we have any pics of what might become of the VF-1 series "classic" form?

No. . . because there is no indication that the VF-1 will be redesigned. This has all just sorta sprang up from several (questionable) leaps of logic among the fans here.

Nor is there any real indication that the VF-1 will appear in Macross Zero at all. Though, I can see why many would think it will.

H

[JB0]

Nor is there any real indication that the VF-1 will appear in Macross Zero at all. Though, I can see why many would think it will.

H

Well, Focker's there. And Focker without the VF-1S is just wrong.

[ewilen]

Does the new PS2 game count?

Edit: NOT Battlecry!

I.e., http://www.bandaigames.channel.or.jp/list/...s/mechanic.html

I'd have to say this is a pretty good indication that the VF-1 isn't going to be updated.

Further discussion of the game, see this thread: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ct=ST&f=6&t=281

[JB0]

Does the new PS2 game count?

Edit: NOT Battlecry!

I.e., http://www.bandaigames.channel.or.jp/list/...s/mechanic.html

I'd have to say this is a pretty good indication that the VF-1 isn't going to be updated.

Further discussion of the game, see this thread: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ct=ST&f=6&t=281

I disagree. When's the last time you saw a 3-handed super valkyrie? (check under the mech's left FAST pack)

[ewilen]

Errr...yeah. That's why I didn't do a copy & paste of the picture. I was hoping it was just an incompatibility with my browser.

Okay, so maybe that's how Kawamori's going to keep the new stuff fresh. "You see, it's just like the original Macross, only everything--and everyone--has THREE HANDS! Three-handed Valks. Three-handed Hikaru. Three-handed Minmay. Three-handed Britai."

[DrClay]

This thread is "Will Kawamori San do a redesign for the VF-1? and is this a good thing?"

I'm not saying what I think SK WILL do.... how would I know? But as far as could it be a good thing... I thought I had an interesting idea, so rather than typing ANOTHER post that essentially says "NO, I LIKE IT HOW IT IS!" or "The Vf-1 doesn't have to be re-designed because I made up this BS as to why the VF-0 is the more advanced fighter..." like everyone else keeps repeating. I simply suggested that if there was an all new anime by Kawamori with the Macross name and new Kawamori styled Variable Fighters, it would be very cool and, being completely seperate of SDF Macross, it wouldn't be all plot-holy or interfere with canon. We could have our cake and eat it, too

But does anyone respond in a positive way? No, it's all "If Kawamori went back and changed the continuity, it would be the suck ala Star Wars" which is yet another post along the lines of "NO, I LIKE IT HOW IT IS!" and shows that my post was COMPLETELY misunderstood. With this response I have to wonder if you can understand the concept of seperate works of fiction.

And when I try to re-explain that my idea is continuity free, the response is, "I WANT him to insert new plotlines in the existing continuity. Only you seem to not like what Lucas did to Star Wars" WTF? Obviously, you're right, it's not a simple enough idea for you.

So, I'll accept that this idea is too abstract for the average Macross fan to grasp. The Average Gundam fan seems to get it, as does the average Zoids fan... but if a "Macross Wing" or "Turn-A Macross" or a "Macross X" story were to be made, according to this forum many Macross fans would be too confused and maybe their heads would explode. So, I retract my idea. You guys can go back to arguing over who's BS reason why the VF-0 is so much bigger than the VF-1 is the correct BS, and every now and again posting messages like "I LIKE THE OLD VF-1!!!" have fun with that.

Edited February 1, 2004 by DrClay

[JB0]

Errr...yeah. That's why I didn't do a copy & paste of the picture. I was hoping it was just an incompatibility with my browser.

Okay, so maybe that's how Kawamori's going to keep the new stuff fresh. "You see, it's just like the original Macross, only everything--and everyone--has THREE HANDS! Three-handed Valks. Three-handed Hikaru. Three-handed Minmay. Three-handed Britai."

Heh.

I checked with a second browser first.

3-handed people... Wo'd've thought evolutiuon would equip mankind with an appendage intended solely for scratching their butt?

[Hurin]

Yes, if Kawamori said: "I'm going to do a new series loosely based on Macross but totally unrelated and un-beholden to the other Macross series here-to-fore, so please don't try to fit it into that continuity. . ." Yes, that would work. But, that wasn't what you were saying. You were saying about Macross Zero and a possible re-design of the VF-1 therein. . .

If a redesign of the VF-1 showed up at the end of Mac 0, it wouldn't erase the original. just like my NEW He-man action figure stands next to my old, my presumtive Yamato Mac 0 vf-1 would stand next to my DYRL vf-1. It wouldn't rewrite history. I wouldn't have to throw away my VF-1s or rip out the pages of line art of the old designs.

And, as I pointed out. . . there is no indication that Macross Zero should be considered an "ALTERNATE storyline". . . rather, it appares to be intented to give us the backdrop for SDF Macross. Its entire point for existing is to flesh out more of the existing continuity and to tell a story within that continuity.

Now you want to act like you're just thinking deeper than all of us. . . hence you write:

With this response I have to wonder if you can understand the concept of seperate works of fiction. . . So, I'll accept that this idea is too abstract for the average Macross fan to grasp. . .according to this forum many Macross fans would be too confused and maybe their heads would explode. So, I retract my idea. You guys can go back to arguing over who's BS reason why the VF-0 is so much bigger than the VF-1 is the correct BS, and every now and again posting messages like "I LIKE THE OLD VF-1!!!" have fun with that.

Do us all a favor. Stop acting as though anyone who thinks your idea is a bad one must be misunderstanding you and/or just too stupid to dwell on the same heightened intellectual plane on which you currently find yourself. Could it be that you are explaining yourself poorly? Or, could it be that you are now mis-representing what you originally said above about how re-designing the VF-1 could/should affect the established continuity? A la:

I simply suggested that if there was an all new anime by Kawamori with the Macross name and new Kawamori styled Variable Fighters, it would be very cool and, being completely seperate of SDF Macross, it wouldn't be all plot-holy or interfere with canon. We could have our cake and eat it, too

Well, that would be fine, if that's all you suggested. But, well, here it is again:

If a redesign of the VF-1 showed up at the end of Mac 0, it wouldn't erase the original. just like my NEW He-man action figure stands next to my old, my presumtive Yamato Mac 0 vf-1 would stand next to my DYRL vf-1. It wouldn't rewrite history. I wouldn't have to throw away my VF-1s or rip out the pages of line art of the old designs.

So, you suggested far more than you are now willing to address. You didn't just espouse how nice it would be to have a whole new series with all new mecha totally unbeholden to the olders shows/movies. . . you also said that could be applied to Macross Zero and any continuity-breaking stuff that might take place in it. And that is what I was addressing. You seem to now want to pretend you never said this. . . while simultaneously insulting the intelligence of people who don't like the idea of Macross Zero taking place in an "ALTERNATE storyline." I think most people are excited about Macross Zero because it is not an "ALTERNATE storyline" but instead represents the closest return to the SDF Macross time period that we have seen since DYRL. We are all curious to see what happened immediately before SDF Macross. We're all happy to see Roy Foker again. So, we really don't want someone coming in, mangling some of our older, favorite mecha, and then saying: "It's okay, because this is an alternate universe with no real bearing on the other series" when all along we have been interested because it has bearing on the other first series.

Look: Yes, Gundam doesn't pay a lot of attention to continuity. I guess. I'm not a Gundam fan. But just because it doesn't do so, does not mean Macross shouldn't. Nor does your little idea really fix any plot-holes or inconsistencies. Rather, it just codifies a "don't ask, don't tell" policy whenever something should come up that doesn't fit. Some of us value continuity and the sense that these series do fit together and tell a long story of humanity's journey into Space War I and well beyond. So, to be blunt: I (and the "average Macross fan") am totally capable of conceiving of "seperate works of fiction." It just happens to be my contention that Macross is not intended to be viewed as unrelated, seperate works of fiction. Nor do I think that going in that direction in Macross's future is a desirable idea for all the reasons expressed above.

Finally, this idea of "ALTERNATE storylines" isn't exactly rocket science. Anyone who has given any thought to the nature of popularized fiction and/or followed a fictional "world" for any length of time has come across the need to "canon-ize" some things and throw out other things (either completely, or into an un-canon or sometimes even a co-equal "alternate universe"). So please don't flatter yourself by asserting that this is somehow a difficult or advanced concept that you are espousing. It is neither. It is, however, a bad idea, in my opinion. And, despite your rather rude posts to the contrary, I don't have to be an idiot to think so.

Best Regards,

Hurin

[DrClay]

you're the one who suggested that the idea wasn't "simple" enough for most Macross fans... but anyways, I've retracted my idea. You can drop it, just dismiss it out of hand (that's what everyone else does) obviously 1,000,000 replies to this post all trying to make up a fictional reason for why the VF-0 is more advanced than a VF-1 is much more interesting than anything I could post.(when the answer is obvious, Kawamori didn't feel like concerning himself with the SDF continuity when he made Mac 0, at least I think that's what I read that he said) anyways, I don't think Macrossworlders are stupid. And I'm sure all these jury-rigged plot idea arguements are really something... anymore telling me how stupid my idea is can be done by PM.

[Hurin]

you're the one who suggested that the idea wasn't "simple" enough for most Macross fans... but anyways, I've retracted my idea.

Uh, you really should read what I said more closely. Here is what I said:

You can call it a "simple" concept if you want. And to you, it might be. But others might feel differently about Macross, and how Kawamori's decisions influence it. Really, it all comes down to how you view an artist's intention and its effect on a final piece of art. Or, indeed, if a piece of art can ever truly be considered final

So, exactly where do I say that it's too complex for most Macross fans? Seriously. . . where? It was you who was repeatedly claiming that the concept was "simple" (and thus expressing exasperation that us morons were unable to grasp it. . . something you just came out and said later).

I'm glad we're done here. . . because now it's just getting odd.

H

[ewilen]

(when the answer is obvious, Kawamori didn't feel like concerning himself with the SDF continuity when he made Mac 0, at least I think that's what I read that he said) anyways

I can't find the original quote; what I got out of it was that he wasn't going to concern himself with minor continuity glitches, not that he was abandoning continuity altogether. Also we have this

For the Macross Chronology that provides the framework for all Macross projects by Studio Nue however, Kawamori and Masahiro Chiba decided to rely on the television series's story.

Source: The CompendiumSo it looks like Kawamori has intended to fit everything into a single timeline.

And it also appears that Kawamori felt a need to explain the absence of the VF-1 (so far) in M0 when he has a scene where the engineer and Focker talk about the delays in producing the fusion engines. To be nitpicky he might just be talking about the engines, implying they could be mounted on a VF-0, but in any case, he's giving an in-story reason why an element of the TV series is missing. If he didn't care at all about continuity, I doubt he would do that.

[DrClay]

you're the one who suggested that the idea wasn't "simple" enough for most Macross fans... but anyways, I've retracted my idea.

Uh, you really should read what I said more closely. Here is what I said:

You can call it a "simple" concept if you want. And to you, it might be. But others might feel differently about Macross, and how Kawamori's decisions influence it. Really, it all comes down to how you view an artist's intention and its effect on a final piece of art. Or, indeed, if a piece of art can ever truly be considered final

So, exactly where do I say that it's too complex for most Macross fans? Seriously. . . where? It was you who was repeatedly claiming that the concept was "simple" (and thus expressing exasperation that us morons were unable to grasp it. . . something you just came out and said later).

I'm glad we're done here. . . because now it's just getting odd.

H

Dude! You win, it's okay calm down...

[FRED THE FRENCH]

...and, will Ferrari redesign the F40?

[Blaine23]

I'm glad we're done here. . . because now it's just getting odd.

H

Dude, it got old about 30 posts back.

Either way, I don't mind alternate continuity, as long as it's properly designated so. No one confuses the RX-78 with Turn-A... because they're named differently.

I really don't care what SK does, as long as he doesn't just shoe-horn a ton of VF+number designations into it.

I would be totally fine if he wanted to make a redesigned VF-1... just call it something else please... otherwise it gets muddy and silly and inspires ridiculous fan arguments on the nature of DYRL's continuity within Macross as a whole.

[Draykov]

I would be totally fine if he wanted to make a redesigned VF-1... just call it something else please... otherwise it gets muddy and silly and inspires ridiculous fan arguments on the nature of DYRL's continuity within Macross as a whole.

Do you mean a new version of the VF-1...or actually alter the base of the VF-1 design and just change the name? For instance, are you saying you wouldn't mind a redesign in the same vein as the (bear with me) Robotech YF-1R veritech? Or by "calling it something else" do you mean something like the VF-0? Close enough, but not quite a VF-1. Otherwise, I don't see the point in changing the design of the subject at hand (the VF-1) and then calling it something else. A spade is a spade.

Edited February 2, 2004 by Draykov

[Blaine23]

I would be totally fine if he wanted to make a redesigned VF-1... just call it something else please... otherwise it gets muddy and silly and inspires ridiculous fan arguments on the nature of DYRL's continuity within Macross as a whole.

Do you mean a new version of the VF-1...or actually alter the base of the VF-1 design and just change the name? For instance, are you saying you wouldn't mind a redesign in the same vein as the (bear with me) Robotech YF-1R veritech? Or by "calling it something else" do you mean something like the VF-0? Close enough, but not quite a VF-1. Otherwise, I don't see the point in changing the design of the subject at hand (the VF-1) and then calling it something else. A spade is a spade.

Well, I'm of the opinion that Kawamori can do whatever he wants to with Macross.

If he chose to do a Macross series that was not in continuity with all that's out there now, that's fine with me. I'd watch it and most likely find enjoyment in it.

I could really care less, as long as it didn't inspire stupid continuity arguements, dig what I'm saying? To me, that would make more sense than trying to fit a VF-0 into Macross continuity... but that's my opinion. You can have your own.

If the show was called Macross X, then I'd prefer it if it was called the Macross X VF-1... that way we'd avoid all the stupidity that comes from the typical "I think the VF0 looks more modern than the VF1" arguements.

Hope that clears it up for you. Now I'm going to go find a spade and call it a spade.

[GreenGuy42]

All I know, is that when that SV-51 gets it ass handed to it by a FULLY OPERATIONAL VF-1, I'm gonna cheer.

[Draykov]

... but that's my opinion. You can have your own.

Thanks!

[Blaine23]

... but that's my opinion. You can have your own.

Thanks!

You're welcome! Tomorrow I'm even gonna let you dress yourself... provided you choose from your "big boy clothes"!

[Draykov]

... but that's my opinion. You can have your own.

Thanks!

You're welcome! Tomorrow I'm even gonna let you dress yourself... provided you choose from your "big boy clothes"!

So...pajamas with feet are out then?

[Uxi]

Could Kawamori redesign a new (earlier, mid, and/or later "block") of the VF-1? Sure. He wisely hasn't released a definitive end-all and be-all catalog of the evolution of the VF-1. Would it require a retcon? No, but there's already precedent (DYRL and "movie in a movie" for one and then the banishment of the MII storyline along with the games and such that were apparently leading up to it).

Should he redesign the VF-1? Well he could make the wings a little funky. Really I think that NEEDS to be done to make the VF-1 look and feel more advanced is equivalent animation. Instead of early 80s Anime Friend we could have a CG VF-1 with slight changes in details (panel lines, wing shape, canards, etc). All of which could have been from a version of the VF-1 *before* the events of SDF Macross (possibly even *during* with another squadron or two or ten and/or something left on Earth and not assigned to the SDF-1's valkyrie compliment). It COULD all be made easily self consisent.

Just like the prequels are with SW.

[Hurin]

I'm glad we're done here. . . because now it's just getting odd.

H

Dude, it got old about 30 posts back.

"odd" and "old". . . two different words and meanings. Though both definitely apply to this discussion.

I too wouldn't mind an "out of continuity" story that is obviously so. But, Macross Zero ain't one of them. So, for that reason, a drastic re-design of the VF-1 would be problematic. But Uxi's concept of a redesign would be pretty cool. . . IMHO.

H

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

if he decides to make a VF-1 redesign, cool. As long as its not too out there like the macross 7 sound force valks. Loook what they did to the excalibur!

I would much rather have him design them on par with a US teen fighter look. Macross 7 was too out there for me.

[Radd]

I see no reason for Kawamori to redesign the VF-1, I mean, look at the line art of it side by side with the line art of pretty much any other VF. It fits, it's nice, it's not broken. The only thing that dates it is the design asthetic, and that's only a problem if you insist that everything should be updated every 10 years to match the here and now. The VF-1 as it is would not look out of place next to the VF-0 should it make an appearance in the OVA, as it's sleek and compact design makes it look more advanced, if decidedly less stealthy than the VF-0. Even that isn't really the case given all the bulges and awkward angles of the 0.

I expect if anything the VF-1 would show up looking a lot like Yamato's 1/48th sculpt. That's fine by me.