neon genesis evangelion

[Gubaba]

I hope Keith takes you up on that - because it would be very interesting.

Indeed it would. I hope he takes me up on it, too, because I'd like to know.

I don't know any Japanese, but as someone who has worked as a translator in other languages, I do know that sometimes it is possible to have extreme differences, particularly when translating complex poetic and literary texts, and I imagine that a show like NGE qualifies and that since we argue over the philosophical implications of the statements in english, then by all means there must be some root of this argument in the original Japanese which is itself open to interpretation.

I take Keith's statement to mean that there are some important portions of NGE where Japanese speakers themselves disagree as to what is intended.

Japanese can be (and often is) EXTRAORDINARILY ambiguous. And that's the problem with a lot of Eva dialogue and extra material: it's really, really unclear. It makes it almost impossible to translate into English, because you simply CAN'T make grammatically correct sentences that convey the same amount of ambiguity in them.

That said, I think the ADV and Manga Ent. subtitles go a very good job, except for that one mistake in EoE. (see here: http://www.evaotaku.com/misatolines.html for more.)

I think it would be wonderful if you guys could have a civil discussion where you give some examples - not all of them, not asking you guys to drop everything and do an exegisis - but some examples of where you see these differences and why they are significant.

Like dreamweaver13, I'm a little rusty (unless you want to talk about the new movies), but I'll do my best...

[taksraven]

I think its just time to agree to disagree guys.

Taksraven

[Keith]

While ADV's original sutitles were..interesting in parts, the Platinum subtitles tightened things up quite a bit. But no translation can put simple facts in dispute.

-Fruits of Life + Fruits of Wisdom = God in Evangelion.There were only "2" beings known to be god in the series, and both contained those two aspects (Lilith, & Eva-01). Also note that there were "2" beings known as Lilith, the Angel seen on the cross in Terminal Dogma, and that very same being once combined with the body of Adam, who is shown to be the original god in the series. And this is very important, Gendo had the body of Adam (in embryo form) implanted into his hand, Rei took Adam from Gendo, when Rei did this, she rejoined her soul with the body of Liilith, as well as the body of Adam, and as we are even shown, the soul of Adam (whos host body had been killed in Terminal Dogma) Kowaru.

So, Lilith's soul (Rei) + Lilith's body (Angel-02) + Adam's soul (Kowaru + Adam's body (Angel-01) + embryo = God

Now the Geofront was actually Lilith's Black Moon Egg (the one from which human life sprouted/w the Fruits of Wisdom), and the White Moon Egg (in Antarctica) where Adam was found (where angel life sprouted/w Fruits of Life) was Adam's Egg, "and" both Angels & Humans share 99.89% genetic similarity, then doesn't it stand to reason (as depicted in the show) that both Angels & humans sprouted from the same being? There is no in show/movie evidence to suggest that Adam & Lilith were seperate entities, not to mention the fact that their combination equals "god" would directly contradict such a claim.

The matter of subtitle mistranslation with Manga's release was specificaly Misato referring to humanity as the 18th Angel. The claim that said line was an inaccurate translation has more to do with random fan speculation than anything, and regardless of the wording in the line, the spirit of the line still implies that humanity & angels are cut from the same cloth. Going back to the RCB we have the simple fact that:

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/rcb-glossary.html

[Adam]

The 1st Angel. The giant of light discovered in Antarctica. The information that Adam was confined underground below NERV HQ turned out to be false -- that underground giant was in fact Lilith. The real Adam was the embryo-like object brought by Kaji from Germany. This was result of humans reducing Adam to an embryonic state after waking it up with the S^2 theory. Second Impact appears to have been an effect of this process. The book of Genesis in the Old Testament records that Adam was the first human to be created by God in His image. There are various theories as to the etymology of the word "Adam", among them: "earth", "red" and "create".

[black Moon (KUROKI TSUKI)]

The words used by SEELE to describe the egg of Lilith, the source of life. In episode 26', the start of the Instrumentality Project reveals that the underground cavity beneath New-Tokyo-3 which became the Geofront is in fact the "Black Moon".

[Lilith]

The giant crucified on a red cross in the depths of NERV HQ. Its face is covered with a mask on which SEELE's coat of arms is painted, and its hands are bolted to the cross. Although its lower body was missing while pierced by the Lance of Longinus, its lower body grew back as soon as the Lance was pulled out. The Instrumentality Project originally planned to use Lilith, but the loss of the Lance caused SEELE to change the plan and attempt complementation using Eva-01 instead. At that time, Keel Lorentz says that Eva-01 is "Lilith's clone", which apparently indicates that Eva-01 was made by copying Lilith. Incidentally, rabbinical scripture states that Lilith (Lilit) was the first wife of Adam, and also that between Adam and Lilith were born demons and spirits.

[Kaworu Nagisa]

The Fifth Children who was sent by SEELE to NERV. However, his true identity was that of the 17th Angel. It is likely that he was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo stage. Unlike the other Angels, he has feelings quite similar to humans. The records list his birthdate as September 13th, 2000 AD. He made contact with the Third Children -- Shinji Ikari-- as a human, and although he became friends with Shinji, he was ultimately crushed to death by Eva-01 piloted by Shinji. He said that "Life and Death are of equal value," and "Only one form of life can be chosen to be given the future."

And then of course there's Eva Unit-01:

[Eva-01 (SHOGOUKI)]

EVA-01 TEST TYPE. The first Eva to be introduced to actual combat, and the second Eva built at NERV HQ after Eva-00. Although it plays a major role in many battles against Angels, it also exhibits a number of unaccountable phenomena, such as going berserk, activating without an entry plug inserted, and remaining active after its operational time limit, etc. In the battle against the 14th Angel, it devoured the Angel and thus directly obtained an S^2 engine. Purple in color, its dedicated pilot is the Third Children -- Shinji Ikari. It seems that the soul of his mother -- Yui Ikari -- was made to dwell inside Eva-01. Also, the physical body of Eva-01 was apparently created from Lilith. This is why when the Lance of Longinus was lost, Eva-01 became the sole substitute for Lilith as the medium for Instrumentality (Human Complementation).

So Eva-01 (body of Lilith) + S2 Engine (Angel Fruits of life) = God

[Evangelion Mass-Production Models (Eva Series) (RYOUSANKI)]

The nine Eva units (Eva-05 to 13) built at the various NERV branches. In contrast to the previous Eva, these units are under the command of SEELE instead of NERV. Equipped with the S^2 Engine, they have an infinite active time and thus do not need umbilical cables. They also have collapsible wings on their backs which allow them to fly. In order to carry out the Instrumentality Project, SEELE committed them to the battle against NERV, and as a group they destroyed Eva-02.

While Eva-5-13, which were cloned from Adam, and complete with S2 Engines, were not gods, and on par with Angels.Any way you cut it, Adam does "not" equate to a god. By the same token, Lilith -Fruits of life, is also not a god. The only thing that constatutes a god in Evangelion, is a being composed of both sides.

[VFTF1]

It makes it almost impossible to translate into English, because you simply CAN'T make grammatically correct sentences that convey the same amount of ambiguity in them.

Might I offer a word of advise from one translator to another: DON'T make grammatically correct sentences. DO convey the same amount of ambiguity by writing in english using Japanese grammatical form as closely as possible. That's what I do whenever I am dealing with something from a foriegn language that makes no grammatical sense in english.

The idea here is as follows: is a translator meant to be an interpretor of meaning, or is he meant to convey the meaning of the original text? I firmly believe that the translator is meant to do the latter, not the former. Ergo, when a translator is faced with a text that is highly ambiguous and "can't make grammatically correct sense that conveys the same amount of ambiguity" - there is a temptation for the translator to INTERPRET the meaning of the original and then create a nice, grammatically correct english translation which imputes a meaning that the translator decides is the correct one and also happens to destroy all original ambiguity.

This is a disservice to the reader, who ends up getting not the story but just the translator's version of the story.

I prefer translations which are rough, strange, ungrammatical and make you pause and scratch your head - at least they give you a taste of the problem that understanding the original presents -and leads you down paths that otherwise you wouldn't have taken.

1.

So, Lilith's soul (Rei) + Lilith's body (Angel-02) + Adam's soul (Kowaru + Adam's body (Angel-01) + embryo = God

2.

So Eva-01 (body of Lilith) + S2 Engine (Angel Fruits of life) = God

Does this mean that the S2 engine = Lilith's soul (Rei) + Adam's soul (Kowaru + Adam's body (ngel-01) + embryo?

It would logically follow that if God = Equation 1 and God = Equation 2, then Equation 1 = Equation 2 (since both equal God).

But the only common factor in both equations is "body of Lilith" - which would lead to the mathematical necessity that:

S2 engine = Lilith's soul (Rei) + Adam's soul (Kowaru + Adam's body (ngel-01) + embryo?

Is that the case?

Pete

[Keith]

No, S2 engine = Fruits of life, the immortality that Angels have. The inference would be that the two forms of life require a trade off.

Angels - Immortal, but at the cost of being few without a culture or community.

Humans - Mortal, but with the ability to work together towards common goals & share knowledge/interact with each other.

The S2 engine that Eva-01 took in gave it both the Fruits of life, and body of the Adam/angel side, since it already had the fruits of Wisdom (Rei's soul) along with the origin of that sides body (Lilith) in cloend form.

Both Lilith (combined form) and Eva-01 are equal in that they have:

Body of Lilith

-Lilith: Original Body

-Unit-01: Clone of original Lilith

Body of Adam

-Lilith: Returned in embryo form when Rei removed it from Gendo's hand and restored her soul into the original Lilith body (assumedly restoring Kowaru's soul as well)

-Unit-01: S2 Engine eaten from the Angels body

Also, Adam's body and the embryo are one and the same.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Keith

[dreamweaver13]

Ok, i'm only starting to backread this thread, so...

And if...I dunno, who can I pick on...dreamweaver13 comes out and says, "I think Elmo is actually Max and Milia's only son," we can point to Macross Chronicle and say, "Well, it wasn't mentioned in the show, but it was mentioned here." And he would say "Oh," and move on.

Heyyyy, waitadoggoneminute.... oh. ok, moving on.

Anyway, not that I want to revive this debate that seems to have naturally quieted, but: i've always felt that with Eva, there are just some theories that just cannot be proved or debunked conclusively either way. such as, who killed Kaji? sure, it can be inferred that it was the old lady, but it could very well be someone else that kaji knew from nerv. hell, it could be ritsuko for all i know. sure, there are some signs, and it's nice to put a theory out there that can be inferred from the show itself. but is it conclusive, either way? i don't think so. in criminal trial parlance, there is still reasonable doubt.

I think the toji/sister debate falls in that category. it can be inferred that the sister was placed in the core. it's a diabolical theory, for sure, and one worthy of a conspiracy as deep as Eva. But i can't find anything from the series that conclusively establishes this. if, for instance, there's a subsequent scene saying that his sister died while in the NERV hospital, that theory suddenly gets more solid. and in the realm of fiction writing (eva writing in particular), that's as conclusive as it can get. but, as it is, there is reasonable doubt for me. after all, the sister could be alive. toji could have another long-dead relative whose soul was stored for future use. NERV could have developed a dummy core (hey, if there's a dummy plug, why not a dummy core) that can sync with any child. heck, maybe this is even the reason why Eva 3.0 was so easily taken over by an angel. there's also the fact that ALL the children in shinji's section are supposedly candidates. maybe they all lost loved ones recently, loved ones whose souls could have been prepared for eva use.

When i was watching eva the first several times, i myself inferred that the sister could have been the core of Eva 03. but for me, that's just a theory. but i wouldn't lump it in with some theories that, for me, became conclusive over the course of the series (i.e. rei being a yui clone, rei being resurrected 2 times, elmo being max and milia's only son, etc, etc.). The theory was fun, but i wasn't ready to bet on it being true.

BUT, i haven't seen Eva 2.0 movie, so if anything there makes this all moot and academic, i wouldn't know.

[Keith]

In the realm of probability, there's no evidence to suggest they long stored souls of relatives for pilots (without Eva's to immediately put them in). So if there was such a case, Touji woild have likely been a pilot much sooner, with a soul readily on tap. The flipside, all students in Shinji's class were pilot candidates. That being so, Touji would be no more ready than any other child in his class, since all would have loved one's souls sittin' in jars ready to go so to speak. Kensuka for instance.

[VFTF1]

such as, who killed Kaji? sure, it can be inferred that it was the old lady, but it could very well be someone else that kaji knew from nerv. hell, it could be ritsuko for all i know. sure, there are some signs, and it's nice to put a theory out there that can be inferred from the show itself. but is it conclusive, either way? i don't think so. in criminal trial parlance, there is still reasonable doubt.

Yes and no.

Kaji's murder was not random - there was a motive behind it. Zero in on the motive and you widdle down the people who were behind it. Technically - it could have been Anonymous NERV security Officer #1 pulling the trigger because Gendo said "enough of that man."

What IS important is that Kaji was killed because his usefulness had come to an end, he was working for the Japanese government as a spy against NERV - and - actually... he was also becoming somewhat of a loose cannon as his conspiration with Misato proved.

Heck -for all we know, the Japanese government killed Kaji when they realized he was becoming a loose cannon with his own agenda - namely getting to the truth of things.

Arguing over who specifically pulled the trigger is secondary to the question of why the character was killed, what he was doing, and - as with EVERYTHING in NGE - WHO he was.

Kaji's most important role in the series was that he made a real woman of Misato and was a real father to Shinji during their man to man talks.

I think lots of times EVA debates dwell on stuff that the anime itself doesn't make out to be extremely important and misses those things which, according to the anime, are important.

That said- I do admire anybody who wades into what Keith is going on about- because that is highly complex stuff, and if there is sense behind it, as he makes it out - then that is a higher form of poetry than I can grasp at the moment.

Pete

[Gubaba]

That said- I do admire anybody who wades into what Keith is going on about- because that is highly complex stuff, and if there is sense behind it, as he makes it out - then that is a higher form of poetry than I can grasp at the moment.

I have to admit, I don't really get at what he's saying, either.

I think if we're really going to hash it out seriously, we've got to state outright what is clear fact (i.e. stated unequivocally in the show), what comes from other material, and what comes from guesswork and inference.

[Marzan]

Re: this whole issue of who is a god, who isn't a god, etc etc etc ---

First of all - let's be clear about one thing guys:

NO WHERE in Neon Genesis Evangelion is there ever a definition of what is meant by "a god" and "an angel" - and so I think it's really best to take these terms with a grain of salt. When we are told that EVAs have "bodies of god" I always understood this in the same sense that Transformers were called "God-masters" in Japanese -- it just means "super powerful."

It doesn't mean that they have bodies of deities - unless of course we mean Greek deities - which basically means the same thing - because the "gods" were just that - MERELY gods. They weren't immortal, they had weaknesses and faults, they were constrained in some ways.

EVA is not a GOD - EVA is not GOD. Proof of that is the simple fact that EVA needs a pilot to function - or at least a dummy plug. And when Yui finally ends up capable of flying off on her own - it's YUI. It's not "God." It's Yui in a super powerful body that will let her traverse the star systems.

I thik you guys are letting yourself be duped into a metaphysical debate that's not there. The names in NGE - "gods" and "angels" etc are just there for the same reason as the religious IMAGES. It's to make everything LOOK important, to make it all LOOK alien and to touch us on a deeply spiritual level, because whatever our religious beliefs, all of us to some extent have been touched by a common culture - a common human history - and are therefore sensitive in sub-conscious ways to religious symbolism.

So there is really no point in trying to map out the real meaning of who is a god and who isn't in NGE - unless somebody can point me to anywhere where it is clearly specified that gods are defined.

Besides - who are we kidding? Gendo and Fuyutski talk specifically about where all these "god" like powers come from - from science. Human beings are building all this stuff - in an attempt to become like gods.

But they will never be GOD - even if they are primordial goopy goo. The logical general, non religious definition of God is eternal, all knowing, Being itself, prime mover --- and alone (and content in being alone). This general a vague logical view has always been apropriated by humans in various ways to satisfy their deep desire for spirituality and we can't get into that anyways because it's the taboo subject - Religion.

But my point is that the whole debate about whether Lilith is a god or who is god or whatever is pointless.

You guys have to first answer the question of what is meant by "god" in NGE - because clearly THAT is key. What you or I think of when we hear the word "god" or "God" is totally beside the point.

And to my knowledge - in NGE - the source of all human power is science, and "god" is generally and vaguely defined as "Beyond Human Liminations"

And Science is that which proceeds to continue to push the bondaries of human limitations.

The angels are some kind of creatures - born of the same stuff that human kind was born of. But this alone in no way answers the question of either THEIR origins or OUR origins.

And I think in the case of NGE this is a futile road to take. Futile because the anime itself didn't care about it. The anime wasn' concerned about where people came from and whether or not there is or isn't a God, or who or what God is.

The anime was always concerned with two things:

1) Who is Shinji Ikari and is it worth living the life of Shinji Ikari?

2) Where is Humanity GOING?

We're not keeping our eye on the ball here when we get into this debate of who is Lilith the god and what is Adam the God and blah blah blah.

Neon Genesis Evangelion is a work that is deeply metaphorical - and we cannot extrapolate on the basis of the events of this anime a precise chronology of the universe. And we shouldn't even look for it.

That's not what Neon Genesis Evangelion invites us to do.

I submit that Neon Genesis Evangelion uses a spiritual-artistic form to get us to wonder about our selves as we relate to ourselves. The angels and the battles with them are convenient metaphors for our personal battles with our own humanity.

If we descend into the dark depths of a debate about Lilith, Adam, the Lance of Longinus etc etc etc - we will be missing the forrest for the trees.

All of the actions and events surrounding the Spear and Adam and Lilith are as much poetry as they are "step by step events in a story."

Don't try to read NGE as if you were reading a treatise on Math and God by Spinoza.

This is not a treatise. My advise would be to think about what Lilith represents, what she - in her form and in what we see - tells us about ourselves. What does the spear represent? Holding Adam to the Cross?

And don't let yourselves get fooled into thinking in theological categories just because things are called "god" and "Adam" etc.

That would be the equivelent of being fooled into looking for Christian teachings in this anime just because there's plenty of crosses and Christ-like references.

I have nothing against rigorous religious debate - but I highly doubt that NGE is inviting that kind of thing.

This isn't the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

There's a reason there are no anime fans who worship Lilith or some such. It's just not in this anime. This anime isn't about that.

Pete

I think you're right in arguing that Evangelion has little to do with religion in itself. It uses religious symbols and imagery to get across a story.

Correct me if I'm wrong Pete, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the word used for the Angels is Evangelion is "shito" which in japanese can also mean messenger or emissary. It doesn't necessary mean "angel" as Christians understand it...

[VFTF1]

Correct me if I'm wrong Pete, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the word used for the Angels is Evangelion is "shito" which in japanese can also mean messenger or emissary. It doesn't necessary mean "angel" as Christians understand it...

That's a question for Gubaba or Keith or Save or anybody else who knows Japanese. I'm flattered you're asking ME to tell you the answer - but I don't know

I do know that they do indeed use the word "sto!" or "shto!" (however you want to romanize it) for Angel. But I don't have a clue about its' etymology in Japanese.

This is a question for our friendly neighborhood Gubaba

Pete

[Keith]

Shito is the word in Japanese use to name them, in English "Angel" was the official choice, complete with being used on the computer readouts. Also note, in no way shape or form am I implying that Eva even remotely literally references religion, when I use words like "god" or "angel" or fruits of life/wisdom, I am using them specifically with the show's intended usage of them.

[VFTF1]

Oh - that much I got out of your equations. But that's kind of like saying "EVA=SKRUFMUFFEL" ---- and that's my point. They're using vaguely important sounding terms which, while you can linkt them together into a kind of casaul thing, you're never going to actually be able to precisely explain what's going on.

Let's take something simple: the idea of putting a soul of a human into an EVA.

How the blazes do you do that?

You could give a narrow interpretation of soul as being personality or specific neuronic map of an individual brain along with the mysterious sources of human uniqueness and personlity...

Or you could give it a spiritual, broad definition.

In either case though, the soul is really something extremely intangible and ehterial and exquisitely tied to a specific body even. After all, the Aristotelian views of the soul (with which that one guy from Macross:Plus disagrees as you recall) state that the soul is always tied to the body. Each specific soul would loose its' particular uniqueness without the body as it is.

If Aristotle is right about the soul - then it's impossible to transfer souls between bodies - even if we could accept that they were tangible.

Yet in EVA, we clearly see that it's Yui in EVA-01 -- look how motherly she is to Shinji. And even Asuka's crazy mama protects her daughter in EOE (and Asuka is ellated to realize that her mom has been protecting her in EVA-02 all along).

Still... NGE never gives us any practical step by step guide about how to take a soul and put it into a super robot

And I don't think it really wants to go there anyways.

Pete

[baronv]

I was finally able to watch the entire NGE series and movies a few weeks ago. I was looking forward to watching it seeing as how it has been referred to as one of the great anime series ever created.

Watched it in about two days. Initial feelings, "What the heck was that all about!?" Time to re-watch Macross and DYRL to start liking anime again.

On the third day I sold the DVD set on eBay. =-P

[VFTF1]

Short and sweet

Oh well.

My girlfriend's ex-husband actually LEFT her. To me - that's crazy because she's smart, sexy, funny and awesome. But I certainly don't deny I benefited from the event

So - ok. You hate EVA.

See you in the Macross threads then

Pete

[Gubaba]

Correct me if I'm wrong Pete, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the word used for the Angels is Evangelion is "shito" which in japanese can also mean messenger or emissary. It doesn't necessary mean "angel" as Christians understand it...

"Shito" means "disciple" or "apostle." Which begs the question...disciples of who? (Probably Seto.)

[Marzan]

"Shito" means "disciple" or "apostle." Which begs the question...disciples of who? (Probably Seto.)

Apostle or disciple? Wow! The plot thickens...

[dreamweaver13]

Arguing over who specifically pulled the trigger is secondary to the question of why the character was killed, what he was doing, and - as with EVERYTHING in NGE - WHO he was.

Kaji's most important role in the series was that he made a real woman of Misato and was a real father to Shinji during their man to man talks.

I think lots of times EVA debates dwell on stuff that the anime itself doesn't make out to be extremely important and misses those things which, according to the anime, are important.

I completely agree. It's the fact that he was killed that matters most, not the who. but Eva being the much-debated topic as it is, EVERYTHING got caught in the crossfires. and you can't blame the fans. after all, we macross fans even discuss the effects of food on the lifespans of the characters! how do you beat that??

I never really intended to give the question much importance; it was just an example of one of those things that are not really clear in the anime. another example would be... aside from the Second Impact, WHAT ELSE does Shinji's school teach??

[dreamweaver13]

Oh - that much I got out of your equations. But that's kind of like saying "EVA=SKRUFMUFFEL" ---- and that's my point. They're using vaguely important sounding terms which, while you can linkt them together into a kind of casaul thing, you're never going to actually be able to precisely explain what's going on.

Let's take something simple: the idea of putting a soul of a human into an EVA.

How the blazes do you do that?

You could give a narrow interpretation of soul as being personality or specific neuronic map of an individual brain along with the mysterious sources of human uniqueness and personlity...

Or you could give it a spiritual, broad definition.

In either case though, the soul is really something extremely intangible and ehterial and exquisitely tied to a specific body even. After all, the Aristotelian views of the soul (with which that one guy from Macross:Plus disagrees as you recall) state that the soul is always tied to the body. Each specific soul would loose its' particular uniqueness without the body as it is.

If Aristotle is right about the soul - then it's impossible to transfer souls between bodies - even if we could accept that they were tangible.

Yet in EVA, we clearly see that it's Yui in EVA-01 -- look how motherly she is to Shinji. And even Asuka's crazy mama protects her daughter in EOE (and Asuka is ellated to realize that her mom has been protecting her in EVA-02 all along).

Still... NGE never gives us any practical step by step guide about how to take a soul and put it into a super robot

And I don't think it really wants to go there anyways.

Pete

Not that I would have any idea how to capture a soul in real life, but in Eva, maybe the body has to go with it. IIRC, Yui was absorbed completely by Eva 01 by accident. maybe it's the same with the others... get the "mother", who may already be brain dead, but technically still alive, then let the Eva core do its absorbing magic. TADAH! Eva with soul power.

Apostle or disciple? Wow! The plot thickens...

and... enter Jesus. hey, Big J, that's your cue....

Edited December 10, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[VFTF1]

aside from the Second Impact, WHAT ELSE does Shinji's school teach??

Lies - like most schools. Bucket loads of oversimplifications mixed with lies and mediocrity.

This is one of the things I love most about EVA - it shows that schools are just holding cells for naive children who adults will later exploit in their insane plots while teaching them fairy tales and lies and fabrications in these schools that have nothing to do with reality.

I like how NGE hits the nail on the head with its' view of modern schooling.

Not that I would have any idea how to capture a soul in real life, but in Eva, maybe the body has to go with it. IIRC, Yui was absorbed completely by Eva 01 by accident. maybe it's the same with the others... get the "mother", who may already be brain dead, but technically still alive, then let the Eva core do its absorbing magic. TADAH! Eva with soul power.

Well - we do kind of see this in reverse, when EVA-01 "gives birth" to Shinji after reducing him to LCL goop. So maybe you're right.

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

In the realm of probability, there's no evidence to suggest they long stored souls of relatives for pilots (without Eva's to immediately put them in). So if there was such a case, Touji woild have likely been a pilot much sooner, with a soul readily on tap. The flipside, all students in Shinji's class were pilot candidates. That being so, Touji would be no more ready than any other child in his class, since all would have loved one's souls sittin' in jars ready to go so to speak. Kensuka for instance.

If indeed ALL the children in Shinji's class are candidates, then it can mean either:

a) All of them have relatives/loved ones that can be conveniently killed at any time needed; OR

b) All of them have recently deceased relatives/loved ones that could be used as cores at any time needed.

Either view works for me. but i can't say for certain which is more probable. The first is diabolical. The second is a bit creepy. either way, NERV (and Gendo) is quite capable.

Also, either way, Toji could not have been a pilot earlier, since:

1) Rei was partly a clone of lilith, so i would think she gets to pilot the first prototype by default.

2) Yui Ikari gets accidentally absorbed into Eva 01's core, so Shinji gets Eva 01 by default

3) Asuka's mother dies quite early in the series, most likely around the same time they developed Eva 02 (this is pure conjecture on my part), so if the core for 02 was chosen before the pilot, that made Asuka the prime candidate for 02. Also, Asuka was designated as 02's pilot even BEFORE she enrolled in Shinji's class, so clearly her assignment pilot was not a result of being a "candidate" from that said class.

That leaves Eva 03. This time, NERV finally has some control, i think. this time, they can finally make use of their "pool of candidates" from Shinji's class, after the 1st 3 pilot slots have been taken by default.

So why Toji? ... I dunno. Working from your premise that Toji was chosen specifically because his core could be prepared more conveniently, as opposed to the other candidates, I'm still not sure what that means. it could be as you say, that the sister was readily available for core use. or out of the possible cores prepared for future use, Toji's is the most developed, or easiest to work with. or he could have fit the ideal profile they needed.

OR Toji could have been chosen simply for dramatic purposes, plotwise, since it provides the most irony -- the student who used to despise Eva polits becomes one himself. Sure Kensuke would have loved to be a pilot, but if he became one.... the series would be less compelling, and he could very well turn out to be Koji Kabuto in an Evangelion robot. it would be fun, but i don't think that would fit well with the series' mood.

Again, if we got some confirmation that the sister is already dead (by whatever freak accident NERV cooks up), then I would agree with, and espouse, the sister/core theory. Until then, I think it's still open to debate.

Edited December 11, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[VFTF1]

Yui Ikari gets accidentally absorbed into Eva 01's core

Accidentally?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression she volunteered, and that this was stated in the later episodes of the anime.

Pete

[taksraven]

I think you're right in arguing that Evangelion has little to do with religion in itself. It uses religious symbols and imagery to get across a story.

Correct me if I'm wrong Pete, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the word used for the Angels is Evangelion is "shito" which in japanese can also mean messenger or emissary. It doesn't necessary mean "angel" as Christians understand it...

It has to be that Evangelion is not really religious. As you say, it uses the religious symbols and imagery as an effective shortcut in telling an interesting story. Thats why when people go too far in trying to weave religion into the interpretation of the story things invariably will not hold and they instead fall apart. Like the theories that the head of Seele, Keel Lorenz, is really the Wandering Jew, and that the Lance of Longinus is really the same one used to spear Jesus. Its just fiction built on what some people consider to be a different fiction.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Its just fiction built on what some people consider to be a different fiction.

Except the hot girls and super robots.

Those are always real

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

Accidentally?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression she volunteered, and that this was stated in the later episodes of the anime.

Pete

I am working under the recollection that she volunteered for the Eva project, but that the absorption was unintentional. i could be wrong though, i haven't seen Eva in a while (but now another marathon might be in my near future. )

[Keith]

Accidentally?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression she volunteered, and that this was stated in the later episodes of the anime.

Pete

Yup, Yui intentionally became the soul of Unit-01, which was the first part of her/Gendo's agenda outside of Seele. Which goes back to the soul thing. What we do know is that even in Evangelion, it's something outside of the tangibility of man to recreate. You'll note how they really stayed away from just how the dummy plug system works, aside from needing to copy the soul of an original being (Lilith/Adam) to even get it to work. But Evangelion "does" tie it in with the body for the most part.

-AT Fiedl is the imaginary barrier between everyonething. Absolute Terror, or it could be said the fear that truly keeping everyone seperate, and part of the reason why no one can truly understand another.

-The loss of the AT field equates to the loss of individual self, and or physical form. Synchroniztion between the Eva's & their pilots has to due with aligning, or lowering their AT fields together enough to make their actions one and the same. Perhaps the reason wh it was decided that an Eva needed a soul stock was because synching up with the body 100% resulted in hte pilot being obsorbed, losing distinction between themselves and the Eva.

-The soul seems to be carried through LCL, making it a pysical thing in that respect. Kowaru remains in central dogma, Rei remained in the wreckage of Unit-00, etc.

-And the strangest case of soul, Rei herself. Assuming that she and Adam/Kowaru were indeed one single god at start, the soul was able to split along with the body. Further, somehow after the death of Rei I, the soul was able to be split between Rei II & Unit-00. How this was possible/done isn't even remotely touched, but we do see that the two parts rejoin just before the decision to destroy Unit-00.

[VFTF1]

I am working under the recollection that she volunteered for the Eva project, but that the absorption was unintentional.

Aaaah - ok - now I know why you're mind is playing tricks on you here Dreamweaver.

Ritsuko does state that there was an accident when melding a human soul to an EVA, which caused the death of the subject.

I think that refers to her mom - or something like that.

You might have gotten that confused with Yui volunteering for it.

But yeah - Ritsuko does say something about somebody dying when they try to put the soul into EVA...at least that's why my memory is telling me.

But like Keith confirms - Yui is indeed voluntary merging.

-AT Fiedl is the imaginary barrier between everyonething. Absolute Terror, or it could be said the fear that truly keeping everyone seperate, and part of the reason why no one can truly understand another.

-The loss of the AT field equates to the loss of individual self, and or physical form. Synchroniztion between the Eva's & their pilots has to due with aligning, or lowering their AT fields together enough to make their actions one and the same. Perhaps the reason wh it was decided that an Eva needed a soul stock was because synching up with the body 100% resulted in hte pilot being obsorbed, losing distinction between themselves and the Eva.

I'm glad you bring up the AT field, and of course your description is correct.

However - I am glad of it because note please that the AT field, even though it sounds like some complex scientific thing - is actually a psychological state that afflicts humanity. The anime calls it "Absolute Terror" and defines it as you write. Yes. But in essence then, it's just using a scientific sounding term "AT Field" to describe the psychological condition of angst, of fear of the Other, of solitutde and lonliness which are part of being a unique individual human being.

My thesis is that this view can be applied to ALL "scientific jargon" in EVA - not just the AT field.

It applies to words and concepts like "Angel," "EVA," "Soul" etc etc

That is why I think when we talk about the definition of these words in the anime, we need to look for what they tell us about the human condition.

Pete

[Keith]

Ritsuko was actually talking about Yui, but that, like the true events surrounding "Second Impact," and the true nature of the Eva's, was Nerv spin doctoring. And while no doubt, most aspects of Eva are metahpors for the human condition, that doesn't detract from their literal canon meanings in the series.

Which takes us back to Nadia, i.e. Proto-Eva.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Keith

[Marzan]

Which takes us back to Nadia, i.e. Proto-Eva.

Just recently watched Nadia for the first time and was simply amazed about how many elements of Eva I could recognize in Nadia. From the obvious like character and art design, to character interplay, dialogue and eventually story. Nadia besides being a really entertaining anime (except those awful filler episodes.) really was a testing ground for ideas for Eva.

[Keith]

Just recently watched Nadia for the first time and was simply amazed about how many elements of Eva I could recognize in Nadia. From the obvious like character and art design, to character interplay, dialogue and eventually story. Nadia besides being a really entertaining anime (except those awful filler episodes.) really was a testing ground for ideas for Eva.

The most striking thing to me, was the scene where Gargoyle showed Nadia Adam. That to me more than anything made me glad I saw Evangelion first, as it really gave you a sense of Anno's evolutionary process. Those ending episodes are so epic, and really make the series a bridge between Gunbuster & Eva I just wish the series hadn't been tampered with. I actually don't mind most of the Island episodes, but those damned Africa episodes truly need to be whiped out of existence. Marie's song justifies the existence of the musical episode.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Keith

[Marzan]

The most striking thing to me, was the scene where Gargoyle showed Nadia Adam. That to me more than anything made me glad I saw Evangelion first, as it really gave you a sense of Anno's evolutionary process. Those ending episodes are so epic, and really make the series a bridge between Gunbuster & Eva I just wish the series hadn't been tampered with. I actually don't mind most of the Island episodes, but those damned Africa episodes truly need to be whiped out of existence. Marie's song justifies the existence of the musical episode.

LOL.

I found a site that deals with some of these paralells and coincidences. Seeing some of the images side by side, really gives you a sense how much alike they are.

http://www.thesecretofbluewater.com/nadieva-i.htm

[Keith]

That site is actually what made me decide to finally track down Nadia, which in my foolishness was "after" ADV's original boxed collections went OOP, wasn't cheap, but it was worth it.

And hell, while we're talking about Anno in general, how many here have seen Love & Pop? That movie along with Kare Kanno solidified him as one of my favorite director's.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Keith

[VFTF1]

Regarding: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry818663

So - some questions:

1. Was this VA choice made specifically for Shinji Ikari - that is to say, not just the voice, but the gender of the actor - was he played by a woman to underline his womanliness or as a kind of injoke playing off of the usually very heroic "manly" main character...whereas Shinji is, by his own admission a coward who doesn't want to risk himself and sees no point in it?

2. Or should I not read anything into this, because it's common for women to voice act male characters in anime? Is it? Any other legendary male characters voiced by women?

3. This sure gives a comedic twist to that one episode (the shadow angel) where Shinji says "this is a man's job!"

Pete

[Gubaba]

Regarding: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry818663

So - some questions:

1. Was this VA choice made specifically for Shinji Ikari - that is to say, not just the voice, but the gender of the actor - was he played by a woman to underline his womanliness or as a kind of injoke playing off of the usually very heroic "manly" main character...whereas Shinji is, by his own admission a coward who doesn't want to risk himself and sees no point in it?

2. Or should I not read anything into this, because it's common for women to voice act male characters in anime? Is it? Any other legendary male characters voiced by women?

3. This sure gives a comedic twist to that one episode (the shadow angel) where Shinji says "this is a man's job!"

Pete

Well..Megumi Ogata has kind of a deep voice, so she tends to get a lot of roles playing guys. Especially boys who are just on the brink of puberty.

As for other male characters voiced by women, most little boys are...the only main characters I can think of off-hand though are Son Goku and Crayon Shin-chan.

[VFTF1]

Ok... thanks for that!

Now I'll see you in the Robotech/HG thread

Pete