HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

And then Doug claimed victory, because Seto and Viper realized they couldn't win.

Which is kinda true...but only because neither side could agree on what the respective fleets' capabilities actually were.

You do realize that this is the kind of argument 5 year olds have on a playground? And banning Seto is the equivalent of a 5 year old shouting "you poopy head!" ?

OF COURSE Seto couldn't win this argument.

The argument is pointless - it can either be a fun set of hypotheseses or it can be 5 year olds calling eachother out. The stats for Macross and different than for Robotech.

Hell - the stats for Mospedia and Southern Cross (assuming there are any in Japan) are different than Robotech.

It's all conjecture.

It's like "who would win? Batman vs. Spiderman?" It's a playful question and EVERY possible opinion is just that - an opinion.

Meh.

If Robotech vs. Macross discussions are at the level of "the Macross version of these cartoon airplanes can blow up the Robotech version of the Mospedia version of those cartoon airplanes and if you don't agree then you're a poopy head and get banned!" then... well...

No further comment necessary.

Pete

[Gubaba]

If Robotech vs. Macross discussions are at the level of "the Macross version of these cartoon airplanes can blow up the Robotech version of the Mospedia version of those cartoon airplanes and if you don't agree then you're a poopy head and get banned!" then... well...

Well...I completely agree with you about the ridiculousness of the match-up, but that wasn't really why Seto got banned. It was mostly because the discussion (and the discussion in Doug's thread about how Ranka was 12 and naked, entitled "HOW OLD DOES SHE LOOK!") got REALLY ugly.

[hulagu]

Um..maybe he was just talking about the SDF-1 in Macross? I agree - in Robotech, it can be a million miles. The animation is not going to tell us anything for the reasons I stated above because the animation is not animation for the Robotech story. It illustrates the Macross story. The Robotech story is super imposed on it.

Therefore - in Robotech - the SDF-1 can be however long Harmony Gold says it is.

Who cares?

The Prometheus is shown to be a typically sized aircraft carrier, not an unusually sized one, before being retrofitted onto the SDF-1. Even from the animation alone, the fact that the arms make up about a third of the total length of the SDF-1 means there's no reasonable way the thing is 4km long

[Einherjar]

Again - I don't really understand what you're getting at?

I think you're confusing this for an actual debate. He started this and other discussions a very long time ago in other places where there actually wasn't going to be a discussion at all. He had an answer already and anyone who posted to the initial question lose by default, regardless of real evidence or facts used.

You lost by just responding, Pete. In fact, we've all lost.

[VFTF1]

The Prometheus is shown to be a typically sized aircraft carrier, not an unusually sized one, before being retrofitted onto the SDF-1. Even from the animation alone, the fact that the arms make up about a third of the total length of the SDF-1 means there's no reasonable way the thing is 4km long

And Harmony Gold can come along and say this:

"Oh, but in the Robotech universe, they started building aircraft carriers that were 10 times bigger than the ones we have now in the real world."

And fine. Who cares? Let the SDF-1 in Robotech be as long or short as they want.

Meanwhile, in Macross, unless I am mistaken, there are official stats.

Those stats need not hold true for Robotech.

But I just don't see why this is even an issue? I mean - ok - I understand that it's an issue for Robotech fans. If you love Rick Hunter and Lis Hayes, you want to prove that they aren't cramped or something, and that there's plenty of room for stuff - it makes you sleep better to know that the SDF-1 is long enough to...do something or other. Ok. Fine.

But for Macross fans to be concerned about this? Who cares what the length in Robotech is?

Pete

[VFTF1]

I think you're confusing this for an actual debate. He started this and other discussions a very long time ago in other places where there actually wasn't going to be a discussion at all. He had an answer already and anyone who posted to the initial question lose by default, regardless of real evidence or facts used.

You lost by just responding, Pete. In fact, we've all lost.

I disagree with the last part, of course.

First of all - nothing is ever lost when people have a dialogue that is civil because all dialogue ultimately leads to either better understanding or one side proving themselves to be dorks and banning the other side. If the first thing happens, then great for everyone. If the second thing happens - to bad for the dorks who resort to banning their opponents.

Second of all - if we did not respond, we would not be upholding the MW way of doing things - namely open, civil debate.

Thirdly - I realize Doug and Memo are saying the same thing they've said elsewhere. But I think the fact that they are here says something - namely - it says that they recognize that they actually need to be able to engage Seto and us in a dialogue.

Why?

Because if they don't - then you get a 39 page thread on the internet about why they suck - with NOT ONE PERSON ARGUING OTHERWISE.

Meanwhile, on Robotech.com - I think it's hard to find a 39 page thread about anything (unless Seto was writing in it)

Clearly then - it is in their interest to actually be able to debate their opponents rather than letting their opponents just write whatever they want at MW.

Too bad both Doug and Memo realized this only after first banning their opponents who actually contribued to their websites.

There's nothing demeaning about talking to them, though. And as long as they're being civil - then it's fine.

NOTE: Being civil and being harsh in your arguments are not mutually exclussive. The mods will determine if the line is ever crossed of course, as will common sense public opinion - but so far, everybody is keeping their cool and arguing the merits. Heated argument - yes. But nothing discourteous I would say.

And since this time, Doug and Memo can't just BAN Seto when they don't feel like talking to him any more - then this debate will finally make its way to its' logical conclusion:

Either Doug and Memo will learn to get along with Seto and co-exist with us here, or this will descend into a flame war.

I am counting on Macrossworld members NOT to be the ones who turn this into a flame war.

Finally - if people don't want to talk to them - then don't. Nobody's forcing you. If you think their stuff is ridiculous - don't respond.

But look - ultimately in the course of the debate - something will change - it is innevitable - either we will come to some understanding, or the dialogue will end in fiasco and flame war.

If it ends in fiasco and flame war because of us - then we suck.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Einherjar]

Of course Pete, I understand. But knowing doug, his responses to these posts, if he ever comes back, are going to get ugly. It's who he is.

[taksraven]

VFTF1

EXACTLY!! THANKS VFTF1

EXCEPT ABOUT SETO. I DONT SEE HIM BEING THE HEAD OF THE GROUP OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. BUT HE DOES HAVE AN EXTENDED OF BAD WORDS IN EVERY POST TOWARDS A ROBOTECH FAN. AND FANS NOTICE THROUGH HIS POST HE LIKES TO THROWN IN A FEW THERE WHILE TRYING TO PROVE A POINT. SINCE HE WAS DOING IT THE MOST IN RT.COM, RTX, AND ESPECIALLY HERE. WHICH MADE HIM AN EASY BAN. ESPECIALLY IN A PAGE THAT I AM MORE INVOLVED WITH.

NOW UNLIKE JASONC, AND WHY I GET ALONG WITH THIS GUY, IS BECAUSE HE MIGHT HAVE THE SAME FEELING LIKE SETO, HE IS JUST MORE.....CIVIL ABOUT HOW HE COMMUNICATES THROUGH HIS POSTS.

ARE ROBOTECH FANS BETTER BECAUSE WE DON'T CALL OUT NAMES? NO

AND ACTUALLY, DON'T KNOW WHERE OR WHEN WAS THAT FIRST CAME UP BUT IT HAS BEEN THE NORM SINCE WAY BACK TO CALL A MACROSS FAN PURIST NOT ONLY WHEN "talking about tension between the original Japanese SDFM TV Macross and Robotech." BUT SEEING POST OF THAT LIKE SETO.

AT RTX IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM BUT HE DOES LIKE THOSE POSTS FOR SOME REASON WHICH START FIGHTS.

FOR NOT POSTING HERE, I NOTICED AFTER A WHILE WHEN THERE IS GOOD DISCUSSION, SOMEHOW OR SOMEWAY SOMEONE LIKES TO POST A "MAV OR MEMO" FOLLOWED WITH POST THAT ARE LIKE SETO. YOU COULD READ BACK AND JUST READ ALONG AND ALL IT TAKES IS THAT ONE POST TO DERAIL A DISCUSSION AT HAND. WHY ITS HARD TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS THREAD WITH FRIENDS THAT I KNOW. BUT I GUESS AS LONG AS IT'S KEPT IN HERE IT'S ALRIGHT.

AND SINCE MY LAST APPEARANCE I ONLY ASK FOR ONE THING THAT IS PART OF THIS THREAD.

Its like reading English that has been put through a piece of dodgy translation software to convert it into Chinese, and then its been "translated" back into English again.

And I don't think its all down to "English is my 17th language". I think its more like "I can't organise my thoughts in any coherent way, AND English is my 17th language".

As a result, why does anybody give a flying fark what this insane troll says?

Taksraven

[Robelwell202]

Doug said that the Robotech Masters could beat anyone, and challenged Seto and Viper (aka Robelwell202) to have a match-up, Masters vs. U.N. Spacy - any era. Seto and Viper pulled out stats from Macros Chronicle and other places, and gauged the Master's power based on the RT.com infopedia. Doug used screenshots and dialogue to show things like the Masters blowing stuff up, and Chlore's group ripping into the Macross 7 fleet.

(I suggested that Basara just sing at the Masters, and it would all be over in a matter of minutes.)

Anyway, it pretty much devolved into name-calling, and mutual cries of "You haven't proved ANYTHING!" and kind of fell apart.

And then Doug claimed victory, because (he said) Seto and Viper realized they couldn't win.

Which is kinda true...but only because neither side could agree on what the respective fleets' capabilities actually were.

I can only speak for myself, here. Seto may agree with me, or he may have his wn reasons.

I withdrew from the 'RT-Masters/UN-Spacy' debate for a number of reasons, and none of them were ever intended to admit defeat.

First, in the debate, it was a cross-continuity question, and most of us here will agree that those can get rather sticky. It would be like asking "Could a fleet of USS Enterprises beat a fleet of Millenium Flacons?" It would make for some intriguing answers, but in the long run, there would be a lot of heated emotion thrown in for the simple fact that fans have thier loyalties and references. Either way, I tried to engage the debate as best I could.

Now, during the course of this debate, I took a histrorical reference tack, stating that the UN-Spacy would win, even if the initial trikes proved ineffective, and the war was brought down to the level of basic attrition. Simply put, the UN-Spacy has more to throw into a fight than the masters did.

Here's where Doug started to go over the deep end. Between myself and Seto, we provided some very good arguments (Albeit a bit subjective on my part) for our side of the story, but Doug wouldn't accept that. That's when the idiotic, inconclusive screen-caps, as well as the ugly language and ad-hominum attacks began.

Now, I did try to engage the debate fruther, but it was pointless. Doug cannot debate, since his opinions and ego prevent acceptance of another person's argument, nor can he even accept that someone may know more than he does (A distinct and easy possibility, since he's a certified idiot and an illitarate one at that.).

On my end, there was never any declaration of defeat or surrender (Terms I find ludicrous, since it was a simple debate about anime), but Doug cannot let himself believe otherwise, since his ego and insanity DEMAND that he be victorious over some vanquished foe.

[VFTF1]

Well - Nekki Bassara would kick all you alls' asses anyways SO THERE!!

Pete

[eugimon]

wait, what? When was Ranka shown naked in MF?

[anime52k8]

Doug Bendo:

News flash:

1) None of the characters in Macross Frontier legally qualify as "minors" under US law because they are not human beings, but rather - cartoon characters.

as much as I hate to disagree with you, under current US law it still counts even if the minors involved aren't real

the statute under which Whorley was convicted, the PROTECT Act of 2003, clearly states that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists."

So if the depicted individual(s) can in any way be construed as a minor (either they look like one, or are described as one) it counts, even if the minor(s) in question are just drawings or even verbal/textual descriptions of people that don't exist. If they cans show this and prove that the material in question is "obscene" (based on the Miller test, which itself is a pile of industrial grade bullshit.) it constitutes CP.

on a less than related note, Canada and Australia both have even more restrictive laws of this type than the US. Ironically they have the highest rape rates amongst industrialized nations (78 and 77.8 per 100,000 respectively); more than double that of the US and some 44 times that of Japan... just something to think about.

this of course fly's in the face of Ashcroft v. Free Speed Coalition which ruled that both visual renderings and verbal descriptions ARE protected as free speech because they DO NOT depict actual children and therefor =/= CP.

Of course since MacF never had any actual content that could even remotely be construed as obscene (although with the current state of the US legal system you never know), the question of it being CP/illegal in the US is still kind of moot. But for the record any character depicted in any cartoon/anime/comic book/hentai/doujin etc that can be construed as a minor IS legally considered a minor in the US (until someone who isn't a pedophile gets around to calling shenanigans on this BS law.)

[VFTF1]

wait, what? When was Ranka shown naked in MF?

The series opening - where she flutters in a beam of flashy light through a triangle into space or something.

I guess that's the part Doug defines as pornography.

Re: the current law/Ashcroft vs Free speech etc:

The Supreme Cout made its' decision in the case you cited. Naturally, there will always be circumstances where people try to give new twists to old abuses.

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court case you cited carries more weight than Federal Appeals court - and the two cases are not similar because this Whorley guy was actually into REAL live children in pornos.

Sure - you're right - but actually, if you sift through American law - and the laws of most countries - you will find that it is actually illegal to breathe litterally and that there is just about nothing legal any more. The vast majority of these laws go unenforced - until somebody wants to be mean to somebody else and haphazardly enforces them.

But this is a problem that is seperate from whether or not something is REALLY illegal.

By "really illegal" in the United States I mean unconstitiononal.

I don't wanna get into a political debate - but I'm never going to concent to something that is clearly a violation of constitutional free speech bein formally called "law" just because some state house or session of Congress passed it and somebody else enforces it and the Supreme Court hasn't heard the case yet.

Most of the laws in America are illegal - they contradict not only the constitution but even themselves; like most laws in most countries.

I will bet every penny you want that the "PROTECT ACT OF 2003" is full of unconstitutional stuff.

But - let's look at the link you cited:

It says:

Whorley also received digital photographs of actual children engaging in sexual conduct and sent and received e-mails graphically describing parents sexually molesting their children

How much you wanna bet that his 20 year sentence has something to do with this?

They just tagged on the "cartoons are porn too" offense so they could widen the application of the law.

But the Supreme Court in Ashcroft vs. FSC specifically said the 1996 act couldn't do that. So - neither can this one.

That doesn't mean they won't continue trying.

They just found a guy who happened to like hentai with animated children AND live child pornography and bagged him.

And finally - it's not the Supreme Court. It's just a Federal Appeals court that ruled.

My guess:

If this case came to the Supreme Court, based on prescendence - the court would say:

1) Whorley should stay in jail because he was into child porn with real children.

2) Congress once again is overstepping its' limits by confusing the defense of real children and the freedom of speech.

The description of the Whorley case fits that perfectly.

So - I say my argument holds. More bad laws will always be passed and prosecutors will continue to try to expand the power of the state to jail you for breathing.

Doesn't make it truly legal.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[VFTF1]

Cotinuing this subject - the article you quoted does a great job showing where this new law "Protect act of 2003" is totally unconstintutional:

Two judges rejected those arguments. A third agreed with Whorley on those issues but joined the majority in affirming his convictions on the counts pertaining to photographs.

Judge Paul V. Niemeyer noted in the majority opinion that the statute under which Whorley was convicted, the PROTECT Act of 2003, clearly states that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists."

So - let me see: how can somebody that does not "actually exist" have any legal protection?

Christoper Robin is a cartoon character in Winnie The Pooh.

Behold:

My Fictional Story:

One day, Christopher Robin from Winnie The Pooh was walking down the street. Then I, Pete, came up to him with a gun and shot him dead.

The End

So - under the PROTECT ACT OF 2003... I am a murder right?

I just murdered a child. True, he didn't exist - but I just wrote about how I killed a fictional character in my one sentence story.

Somebody please get the ball rolling to extradite me back to the USA so I can stand trial for first degree murder.

Anyways - that one other Judge basically summed up my view: "yeah, you're right. Emails and cartoons aren't porn. But pictures of real kids being exploited for sex are child porn. Go to Jail."

If they press on with the other two - they will loose those two arguments at the Supreme Court and that ridiculous sentence (about the law applying to things that don't exist) will be over turned.

EDIT AGAIN: FINAL POINT:

What do you expect a Federal Appeals court to rule anyways? A Federal Appeals court has to rule based on Federal Law - not on the Constitution. The law is stupid, so they upheld a stupid ruling.

When it gets to the Supreme Court, the Court will uphold the jail time for real child porn and strike down the punishment for the hentai and the whole notion that ANY law can apply to people who "don't actually exist." The Constitutional protection to life liberty and property doesn't cover non-existent people at the expense of living human beings.

Although I'm sure lots of politicians would love to put real living people in jail and supplement them with people who don't "actually exist" -- but still miraculously rise from "non-existence" from time to time to vote for them.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Robelwell202]

The series opening - where she flutters in a beam of flashy light through a triangle into space or something.

I guess that's the part Doug defines as pornography.

Uh, sorry Pete... You're wrong, again.

Bendo's referencing the final episode of Frontier, where Ranka appears with Sheryl in the mind-link with Alto. There's roughly 2 whole seconds of her in sprirt form, where Doug claims she's out in space, naked, for all to see, during an 'intergalactic space battle'.

Insofar as her age is concerned, 16 is the age of concent in Japan, and since Frotnier's not able to be distributed in the US, the US standards of descency do not apply.

Needless to say, any self-respecting intellectually-developed person could see, right off, that the footage in question is in no way exploitive, sexually or otherwise. Gubaba made a point that she could even be in a unitard, for all that it's worth.

Bendo is simply putting up this idiotic argument to have some kind of platform for bashing Macross, as well as tryiong to recover something from a previous argument (That being the one where I showed space combat footage from both Frontier and RT:TSC, and he got butthurt over it).

Pete, check your facts before speaking for someone else, huh?

[anime52k8]

>snip<

that's kind of my point. based on previous supreme court rulings, and the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, it's protected free speech and they aren't considered real people; as you said.

BUT, the most recent application of the most recent law (This case and the PROTECT Act) relating to this subject says otherwise. It may not be right and it may very well be struck down in the future by a higher court, but until somebody with a better case than this sap challenges the law legal grounds still exist to say that cartoon characters can be treated as actual minors for legal purposes.

[VFTF1]

Uh, sorry Pete... You're wrong, again.

Bendo's referencing the final episode of Frontier, where Ranka appears with Sheryl in the mind-link with Alto. There's roughly 2 whole seconds of her in sprirt form, where Doug claims she's out in space, naked, for all to see, during an 'intergalactic space battle'.

Oh - sorry. My bad. Still - as you note - the whole argument still holds since essentially whether it's the "spirit form" from the ending or from the opening, it's the same "form" in question.

Pete

[VFTF1]

BUT, the most recent application of the most recent law (This case and the PROTECT Act) relating to this subject says otherwise. It may not be right and it may very well be struck down in the future by a higher court, but until somebody with a better case than this sap challenges the law legal grounds still exist to say that cartoon characters can be treated as actual minors for legal purposes.

Yes - that is true.

But that's like saying legal grounds exist for a citizen to take another citizen to civil or criminal court and to file an accusation against anybody.

That's ALWAYS true.

It's just as true as the fact that Doug enjoys freedom of speech to voice his opinions, which most all of us disagree with.

Still - let me put it this way:

When YOU OR ME talk about whether naked cartoon character are illegal and pornographic - we quickly not only look to some case law and legal practice, but we get down to some important basic distinctions.

Doug just says "it's illegal!" and that's it.

At least he did in this thread.

But clearly - it's not always and everywhere illegal - for it to be illegal - it has to satisfy a number of circumstances which themselves are questionable and debatable - as we have seen.

Now - did Doug Bendo ever make any effort - beyond saying "it's illegal!" to argue...you know...WHY?

Pete

[anime52k8]

So - let me see: how can somebody that does not "actually exist" have any legal protection?

Christoper Robin is a cartoon character in Winnie The Pooh.

Behold:

My Fictional Story:

One day, Christopher Robin from Winnie The Pooh was walking down the street. Then I, Pete, came up to him with a gun and shot him dead.

The End

So - under the PROTECT ACT OF 2003... I am a murder right?

I just murdered a child. True, he didn't exist - but I just wrote about how I killed a fictional character in my one sentence story.

Somebody please get the ball rolling to extradite me back to the USA so I can stand trial for first degree murder.

no because the PROTECT Act only covers sex related things. It's perfectly ok to talk about/visually depict the murder of children, just not having sex with them

:edit: but you did use a gun in the commission of your fictional murder so you're probably violating some sort of gun control legislation

Edited December 11, 2009 by anime52k8

[VFTF1]

no because the PROTECT Act only covers sex related things. It's perfectly ok to talk about/visually depict the murder of children, just not having sex with them happy.gif

Pff

Typical of the sad state of legal thought in the USA on this subject.

Murder and bloody warfare are A-Ok.

Sex is bad.

Right - got it

Pete

[anime52k8]

Now - did Doug Bendo ever make any effort - beyond saying "it's illegal!" to argue...you know...WHY?

Pete

Of course not, you can't expect a man of his incalculable brilliance to be arsed with such minor details as factual evidence and logical reasoning. who the hell do you think he is? he's the Goddam Doug Bendo!

all this thread is missing is pizza the hut to reveal his SUPER SECRET MW spy acount, then we'd have a perfect storm of failure.

[EXO]

...

no idea who you are, I have no problems with you... but you only have 2 posts so far, try not to attach that image everytime you post. It's obviously a way to get around the no images in signatures rule, so that means you already know what the forum rules are.

Thanks!

EXO

[VFTF1]

all this thread is missing is pizza the hut to reveal his SUPER SECRET MW spy acount, then we'd have a perfect storm of failure.

I so wish I could make everybody's life interesting at this point by truthfully revealing that I am Pizza the Hut.

Sadly, I always liked Pappa John's and Dominos better - and while the Space Balls character was a nice pun, I wouldn't really use that avatar ...

As for Doug Bendo -

You know...I misspoke. It's not just America that has that mind set a lot. I mean, heck, here in Poland, theatre plays are getting censored all the time because dudes are walking around stage in their underwear or girls are showing their breasts in some scene or another.

In fact- what is really lousy is that due to people who have allergic reactons to human nudity - the sure fire best way to get famous and make money is to put lots of nudity in whatever you do - because it will make you controversial, get you called an artist and by proxy, make you money.

I'm personally sometimes just bored with it. I love good erotic material - but sometimes it's just done for the shock value - and the only reason it HAS shock value are because of all the prudes running aroound giving it value by screaming their heads off about it.

Case in Point: Doug Bendo.

I mean - come on.

Macross Frontier featured a little boy (Luca) in a death machine; blowing stuff up. It featured human beings commiting bloody murder (Cathy finding her father's body is a fairly graphic scene).

But none of this bothers Doug. That's all good.

It's that one time when Ranka is lit up like a fire bug and while we can't say for sure if she's naked or not, she certainly isn't wearing conventional clothing - THAT is the most important point that needs to be addressed in the entire anime, which had no other interesting, let alone mildly controversial aspects to focus on.

It's so boring.

....

That said....

I've thought up some new issues we can discuss:

1. Rick Hunter vs. Hikaru Ichijo - who would win? (fighting without their VFs)

2. Lyn Minmey vs. Lin Minmei song contest - who sings better?

3. Roy Focker vs. Roy Focker (who's the bigger Fokker?)

Please use the animation from Macross and from Robotech: The Macross Saga to draw your comparissons and tell us why you think your view is right.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

The mess and confusion Memo has, seems to be the interchanging of court rulings. HG vs Fasa seems to somehow been mixed in with the IP issues, and summaries of motions that aren't court rulings are being used to put up an argument in favor of the issue with IP rights.

It's classic MEMO1DOMINION debate tactics... he's never managed to produce real evidence to support his claim that Harmony Gold has full control of Macross and can use the intellectual property of the series at will, so whenever he's cornered he will take whatever irrelevant materials can be twisted to make them say what he wants them to say, then spends several pages harping on them as though they were the smoking gun proving Harmony Gold can use Macross in any way they see fit. Last time, it was a video of an informal talk Tommy Yune gave at a convention back in like 2004 where he constructed a grammatically torturous reinterpretation of statements by Tommy Yune that, when taken literally, explicitly confirmed what I had been saying all along.

Also, what is the question that keeps popping up regarding the possibility of overturning the decisions? If curious, fine, but what bearing does it have on what is here and now? There hasn't been anything of recent that has been overturned, and no one has changed, or decided on since what 04?

Like I said, he's found something irrelevant that he thinks proves the US courts awarded the design copyrights on the Macross IP to Harmony Gold, so he's convinced that trumps that Japanese court cases. A lot of his long-running argument on this topic has been essentially a denial that there is such a thing as international copyright law. So long as he can go on believing that the court cases MIGHT be challenged by something, he can keep willfully spreading his lies about how Harmony Gold can do whatever they please with Macross.

For the record, none of the original Japanese court rulings have been overturned or altered. The courts were apparently quite satisfied with the original judgments and both parties exhausted their appeals trying to challenge the ruling which favored the other party.

Seto and viper how imagine I find you here!!!!!!!

'kay, where'd I leave my Frothy-mouthed Fanatic-to-English dictionary?

Nah, not worth my time. VFTF1's already covered it pretty damn thoroughly, and nobody here takes this clown seriously anyway.

First off seto memo only endorse robotech 00 NOT robotech fan.

Well, that's actually good to know... I'm glad MEMO isn't fool enough to endorse your immature, hateful, ignorant, and frequently slanderous behavior. I guess he does have a little bit of common sense after all.

You ran from me when you ran out of talking points and after you got caught trying to get me banned from talk shoe. Don't try to denie it because memo and everyone else was there. Just because I'm in your MW now doesn't mean Ill be any lesson of the robotech fan I am at any other time.

Not to completely demolish your little ego trip here, but we decided that rather than continue coming on your show when you had pretty much sworn to continue harassing people, throwing out foul language left and right, and generally being an ignorant prat, we decided we didn't want any part of it and would much rather continue to support JT and his podcast, which is a mature, well-informed, and very well-respected show that continues to gain listeners and the attention of many important figures in the Robotech fanbase. You're just butthurt because he's beating you at you own game. It's a shame, really... for a little while there I had genuine hope that you would finally turn your show around and make something halfway respectable out of it, but those hopes were dashed when you threw what little integrity you had away in an attempt to defend Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, a show you professed to hate.

Let there be no misdirection here, you're on MacrossWorld either to troll or to plug your lameass podcast, because you got booted permanently from RobotechX by SIGHUP.

How did JT get involved in this? I doubt JT giving props to Seto would translate to Seto giving him his show notes.

Nope... I have no role whatsoever in the creative process of JT's show. I've been invited to a roundtable discussion to be held on his show, but that's the entirety of my involvement.

And then Doug claimed victory, because (he said) Seto and Viper realized they couldn't win.

Which is kinda true...but only because neither side could agree on what the respective fleets' capabilities actually were.

Actually, Doug claimed victory after the other people involved threw up their hands and said "enough of this poo, this boy ain't interested in having a rational debate!". It essentially ended with Doug making unsubstantiated claims based solely on the animation with no context or dialogue, and denying that the stats provided in official Robotech publications weren't valid because they were based on material from the OSM. The reason we couldn't come to a consensus on the abilities of the respective fleets is because Doug found the official sources unfavorable for his argument, and therefore tried to deny that they were, in fact, valid sources.

And since this time, Doug and Memo can't just BAN Seto when they don't feel like talking to him any more - then this debate will finally make its way to its' logical conclusion:

Either Doug and Memo will learn to get along with Seto and co-exist with us here, or this will descend into a flame war.

I am counting on Macrossworld members NOT to be the ones who turn this into a flame war.

Oh don't worry, I shant start any fights. I'm actually still rather disappointed because for a while there, I genuinely believed Doug Bendo could actually make something respectable out of his podcast, and it actually started to show promise (like the discussion of Gundam's various AU stories and Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross) before backsliding into hate and bile and ignorance. I'm not normally the sort of person who believes that people can change their habits easily, but for a while there when Doug was trying to compete with JT on JT's level, there was cause for optimism, however brief... and that those hopes were dashed was a genuine disappointment for me.

As a result, why does anybody give a flying fark what this insane troll says?

Because, unfortunately, someone gave this guy mod powers on several different websites, including an official fansite, and he's been using those sites as a pulpit to maliciously spread misinformation.

Macross Frontier featured a little boy (Luca) in a death machine; blowing stuff up. It featured human beings commiting bloody murder (Cathy finding her father's body is a fairly graphic scene).

But none of this bothers Doug. That's all good.

It's that one time when Ranka is lit up like a fire bug and while we can't say for sure if she's naked or not, she certainly isn't wearing conventional clothing - THAT is the most important point that needs to be addressed in the entire anime, which had no other interesting, let alone mildly controversial aspects to focus on.

If you actually stop and listen to Doug's podcast on the subject, which is a lot like me asking you to buff your eardrums with 20 grit sandpaper, you'll find several interesting and pertinent facts. Namely, Doug Bendo has never actually seen Macross Frontier in any form other than raw, unsubtitled video, and he doesn't understand Japanese. Yet Doug is openly professing that despite having no way to understand the dialogue of the show, that he was able to discern each and every detail of the story simply by watching the animation. Now, anybody with a functioning brain can tell that's a load of bull, and it explains an awful lot about why Doug talks the way he does about Macross Frontier. I'd also gathered from some things he's said about his dad home-censoring movies like Akira for him, that he leads or at least led, a very sheltered lifestyle. Ultimately, if you review the whole origin of the topic, you find that it came about because I was criticizing the blatant and pointless sexual objectification of all the female protagonists in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and Viper was using AMVs to illustrate the disparity in animation quality between that and the Macross Frontier to demonstrate just what an Amateur Hour production Shadow Chronicles really is.

He got onto this "Macross Frontier is CP" tack for one reason and one reason only... to defend a movie he professes to hate because someone said a Macross show is better. That's all there is to this.

1. Rick Hunter vs. Hikaru Ichijo - who would win? (fighting without their VFs)

No side, they're both too meek to finish the job.

2. Lyn Minmey vs. Lin Minmei song contest - who sings better?

Whichever one's voiced by Mari Iijima, that's obvious.

3. Roy Focker vs. Roy Focker (who's the bigger Fokker?)

The Macross one is 21cm taller according to official bio stats.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

If you actually stop and listen to Doug's podcast on the subject, which is a lot like me asking you to buff your eardrums with 20 grit sandpaper, you'll find several interesting and pertinent facts. Namely, Doug Bendo has never actually seen Macross Frontier in any form other than raw, unsubtitled video, and he doesn't understand Japanese. Yet Doug is openly professing that despite having no way to understand the dialogue of the show, that he was able to discern each and every detail of the story simply by watching the animation.

And DOUG BENDO IS RIGHT.

There are human beings who DO possess the ability to discern each and every detail of something without understanding even ONE spoken word.

For example: ME

I've never watched a Doug Bendo podcast, but I discern without hearing a single word that's it's a waste of time

Therfore- I agree with Doug Bendo.

Pete

[Robelwell202]

If you actually stop and listen to Doug's podcast on the subject, which is a lot like me asking you to buff your eardrums with 20 grit sandpaper, you'll find several interesting and pertinent facts. Namely, Doug Bendo has never actually seen Macross Frontier in any form other than raw, unsubtitled video, and he doesn't understand Japanese. Yet Doug is openly professing that despite having no way to understand the dialogue of the show, that he was able to discern each and every detail of the story simply by watching the animation. Now, anybody with a functioning brain can tell that's a load of bull, and it explains an awful lot about why Doug talks the way he does about Macross Frontier. I'd also gathered from some things he's said about his dad home-censoring movies like Akira for him, that he leads or at least led, a very sheltered lifestyle. Ultimately, if you review the whole origin of the topic, you find that it came about because I was criticizing the blatant and pointless sexual objectification of all the female protagonists in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and Viper was using AMVs to illustrate the disparity in animation quality between that and the Macross Frontier to demonstrate just what an Amateur Hour production Shadow Chronicles really is.

He got onto this "Macross Frontier is CP" tack for one reason and one reason only... to defend a movie he professes to hate because someone said a Macross show is better. That's all there is to this.

And what's even more ridiculous...

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry812449

Here he is, complimenting a fan's Macross Zero project, and he's been on record with a violent hatred of anything with the Macross Label attached to it!

Then again, I know exactly why he's being so gregarious about this project. Doug cannot read the subtitles for the actual series, so anything that makes it easier for him, he's all for it.

See, since he can't put the subtitles for Mac0, or any other Macross titles, into MS-Sam, he hates it. So, when English dubs come out, all of a sudden, he's happy!

Disgusting!

Edited December 11, 2009 by Robelwell202

[Bri]

Why does this Doug Bendo generate so much emotion? I can't find any way to say it without being rude, but in his post he doesn't come across as a stable or sane individual, so why take his words seriously?

[Robelwell202]

Why does this Doug Bendo generate so much emotion? I can't find any way to say it without being rude, but in his post he doesn't come across as a stable or sane individual, so why take his words seriously?

Again, I can only answer for myself.

I hate wilfull ignorance.

For myself, I've grown up under the idea that there's no such thing as a dumb question, and to that end, I've asked many, many questions of people that know the stuff I want to find out. Seto, for one, has been extraordinarilly helpful in that arena, and there have been others, as well.

Doug, though, lets his ego control him, and also, he does not take the time to look into things that might bennefit him. Fruthermore, his profane ignorance of things that other people clearly know only serves as a launching point for his ridiculous tirades and smear campaigns. I cannot abide that.

I guess I'm a flawed individual myself, in that I cannot just blow his rants off as the ravings of an inadequate, undereducated mind, but that they're things that enrage and disgust me. Add to that, I am loyal to my friends, and in the most recent set of attacks, he's targeted a good friend of mine, JT. I don't like it.

I wish there was more that I could add, but... this is pretty much it, as far as I'm concerned.

[dougbendo]

Jasonc, your crap isn’t going to work on me. I know that you don’t only feed JT crap that you like to call in formation but seto as well. As for how good jt is well it is simple… JT podcast sucks. I can go off of pure downloads if you like. I have a lessoner base 50 to 100 times greater then jt does any given week. So don’t try to tell me jt has ANYTHING great going on because he doesn’t. Hell the man doesn’t even do research on the topics he talks about on his podcast. Has no clue how companies are run. Plus just like seto and viper sounds like a complete sissy and blows everything out of proportion. Jt is good for only one thing and that is great source material for my show. Personally I think it is funny that seto and you have joined up to use jt show as a platform to rally people agents hg. Jasonc the fact that you need weak people such as jt and the disciples of seto makes me laugh every time I think about it.

Einherjar don’t worry when I do a whole show on you we will so how much I am worth then. Don’t worry I will give you your own personal time that is all to your self for about 3 hours. Heck I might even do a part one then part two kind of deal. Does that sound good to you?

Gubaba “I have to wonder...are the RT forums so dull that the mainstays are now compelled to come here...?” Well I will aswer that for you. Simply put Jasonc, seto and their disciples can’t shut up. Plus they had all claimed to be robotech fans but weren’t. They have been messing will robotech for years. So now I desided to take the fight to macros world. Keep in mind none of you can stop me in how retarted I can and have already mad macros look. Its just a simple thing of there no need to fight in robotech back yard when we can fight here and in other medias like my podcast. If you really cared about your macros that much then you tell these fools to shup the hell up about robotech.

VFTF1 I am glad to see that you are ok with images that look like children can be your for entertainment in the form of nudity and the such. The fact that she is to be implied to be a entity that we are to relate to as “human” says enough right there. We are made to see her as human. We are to believe she is human. So if I am to believe she is such and that has been the goal of the creator the entire time then how is it ok to put here in a light of questionable position.

VFTF1 Seto said it was because she was 16 it was ok. The fact that she was a cartoon was not an argument and hasn’t been by any of the macros groupies thus far because they understood the above. Weather they are animated naked children or if they are in the fleash it is and always will be wrong. This has nothing to do with a point of view. Jasonc, what is so artistic about the naked sense of the child in macros frontier? Are you really going to tell me they could not have done better then in the drive of the emotion then posting up an naked girl in the a space battle as the defining moment. I mean I know macros frontier is recycled in all but I sure they could have gone about it better then that. For some reson I just see something wrong with grown ass men trying to tell me “its ok that she naked even though she looks like a child perposly made to look like she 12. Shes a cartoon!”

[VFTF1]

Doug Bendo:

Keep in mind none of you can stop me in how retarted I can and have already mad macros look.

I agree with Doug Bendo. He has mad macros look retarted.

Doug Bendo:

VFTF1 I am glad to see that you are ok with images that look like children can be your for entertainment in the form of nudity and the such. The fact that she is to be implied to be a entity that we are to relate to as “human” says enough right there. We are made to see her as human. We are to believe she is human. So if I am to believe she is such and that has been the goal of the creator the entire time then how is it ok to put here in a light of questionable position.

It is ok because "putting things in a questionable position" is the whole point of fictional ART.

Asking questions and bringing up questionable things is the whole point of fictional ART.

I agree with you that is is something people can disagree about, and some people will find it controversial and questionable.

But good fictional art is all about making people question things in life.

Doug Bendo:

The fact that she was a cartoon was not an argument and hasn’t been by any of the macros groupies thus far

Well I just made it an argument.

Weather they are animated naked children or if they are in the fleash it is and always will be wrong

You can believe that it is disagreeable and borders on something worse, but I think you're wrong to say it's always flat out wrong.

I believe that children are also human beings. Teenagers date and fall in love and have sex. 15 year old boys sometimes see naked 15 year old girls. 17 year old girls sometimes see naked 16 year old boys.

They can have sex with each other. It's their right as human beings.

Adult exploitation of real living children is wrong.

"Naked children" is not wrong.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

~ Snip ~

*yawn* Same old ignorant song and dance, different venue. Get some new material already, would you?

[VFTF1]

I'd like to add some more please

Doug Bendo:

what is so artistic about the naked sense of the child in macros frontier? Are you really going to tell me they could not have done better then in the drive of the emotion then posting up an naked girl in the a space battle as the defining moment. I mean I know macros frontier is recycled in all but I sure they could have gone about it better then that. For some reson I just see something wrong with grown ass men trying to tell me “its ok that she naked even though she looks like a child perposly made to look like she 12. Shes a cartoon!”

I would like to expand on some points I made in my earlier post.

I think you have a very narrow and immature view of human sexuality. Nobody who is sane and reasonable will deny that sex exploitation of children (and adults for that matter) is morally wrong and should be criminal.

However, the problem is how we define sex exploitation.

Let me post the question to you this way:

Do you think that children should never be shown in ANY sexual situation in a work of art, literature or fiction in general? Do you think sex should not be discussed with children and children should not be exposed to material with sexual content, under adult supervision, prior to the age of 18 (or whatever other arbitrary criteria you want to choose)?

Do you believe that adults should pretend that sex doesn't exist and that sexuality is not part of being human, when in contact with children?

And do you believe that children will be better off not knowing anything about sex, sexually transmitted diseases, the extent to which hormonically induced emotions can make their life as teenagers difficult, and the moral, ethical and religious dimmensions of sex?

Do you think children will be safer, healthier and better of not knowing anything about this stuff?

If you do - then of course you have a right to your opinion - but I think it's flat wrong.

Children grow into adults - and that is a process. Allowing them to access all information with no guidance is risky because they can be hurt through inexperience. But, restricting their access to information is also risky because then they will never gain experience.

When you talk about child nudity in Macross Frontier - you make it sound like Ranka was giving somebody a blow job.

You are blowing it way out of proportion.

So she seems to appear naked in the anime for a few seconds? Wow. Amazing. Please explain to me HOW this is pornography?

If you are saying that the simple fact of having a naked teenage girl in a cartoon floating in space with mystical spirtual light shining around her is pornography - then I say that you have way waay too broad a definition of pornography.

In fact, I would even go so far to argue that there are plenty of OTHER scenes in Macross Frontier that are far more erotic than the one you're reffering to - yet somehow you seem to be fixated on the nudity scene.

But again - I ask you:

Are teenagers supposed to wear black burkas and never show their faces? Are all teenage girls who dream of being sexy and glamorous supposed to dress like nuns? Are guys and girls never to be allowed to look at eachother?

I mean - look - I'm asking you to clearly define for me how you believe the scene from Macross Frontier is porn.

When you say it speaks bad of us guys who think there's nothing wrong with it - you make it sound, by implication - like we have nothing wrong with child pornography.

What I'm saying is that I think most people would not agree that the scene in question - that ANY scene in question -was child pornography. First of all - there was no sex act. Second of all...well...no - actually - the first reason is good enough...

I mean - you're making a pretty big leap, I think, to suggest that men who are mature enough to watch these kind of scenes are pedophiles by implication.

I would actually argue, Doug - if we're going to go this route that YOU are a pedophile based on what you say.

Why?

Here is my argument for why Doug Bendo is a Pedophile:

1) By accusing us of pedophilia because we find nothing pornographic in the scene with Ranka naked, you therefore logically admit that YOU find the scene with Ranka naked to be pornographic.

2) If YOU find the scene with Ranka naked to be pornographic, then this means that the scene obviously has sexual/erotic meaning and connotations for you.

3) We have explained over and over that none of us find this particular scene pornographic and wonder how you could. But you do not accept it - you insist that it is clear as day light that this scene is pornographic and that to deny it implies that one has "no problem" with pedophilia

4) We are able to find a number of other meanings behind her nudity in that scene - as well as in others. Nuditity is often a metaphore for a pure spirit without anything stopping it from reaching its' full potential. Other scenes of a sexual nature in Macross Frontier (sexual is not the same as pornographic remember) explore sexual guilt, shame, shyness, emotional longing, fashion aesthetics. Really Doug - we could have a very very long conversation about the sexual implications of various scenes in this anime - in most fictional works in fact.

5) You refuse to see ANY other meaning behind this scene other than child pornography.

6) A person who insists that this scene is ONLY about child pornography clearly has such a strong pornographic impression based on the scene that no other impression is possible in this person's mind.

7) Ergo - this person is an unwilling Pedophile because he can't find any other meaning behind a picture of a naked person in a fictional story except for "child pornography"

Remember too please that the word "pedophile" is mearly a description - it is a lover of children. Pedophilia is not illegal. Sexual exploitation of children is illegal. And rightly so - because you cannot put people in jail for sexual TASTES and EMOTIONS. You CAN put them in jail for HARMING other human beings (including sexual aussault on a minor).

Finally:

I believe that a sign of being a mature adult is being able to talk maturely about sexual content in works of fiction.

It is a sign of sexual and emotional imaturity to scream "pedophile!" and "child porn!" just because for 1 second Ranka is naked in a scene, the context of which, clearly shows that she is finally free of her fears about whether or not she is a good singer, whether or not she did the right thing leaving Frontier to go with Ai-kun - it's the culmination of a 26 part story about this character who had many fears and doubts about her self - and finally is free of them and saves the universe.

But for you - it's just child porn.

Ergo - you are the pedophile Doug.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Gubaba “I have to wonder...are the RT forums so dull that the mainstays are now compelled to come here...?” Well I will aswer that for you. Simply put Jasonc, seto and their disciples can’t shut up.

Seto and Viper can't post on Robotech.com. They can't post on RobotechX.com. They can't appear on your podcast any more.

So your coplaint that they won't shut up...well, as VFTF1 pointed out, it doesn't make much sense. YOU had to come HERE, actively seeking them out, to find a place where they "can't shut up."

Again, what do you want? Them silenced completely? It's not going to happen. Best you can do is just ignore them.

Plus they had all claimed to be robotech fans but weren’t. They have been messing will robotech for years. So now I desided to take the fight to macros world. Keep in mind none of you can stop me in how retarted I can and have already mad macros look. Its just a simple thing of there no need to fight in robotech back yard when we can fight here and in other medias like my podcast. If you really cared about your macros that much then you tell these fools to shup the hell up about robotech.

But you're not interested in Macross, right?

[VFTF1]

And I'm going to harp on this subject a THIRD time to get my point across because I think it's important.

Doug Bendo:

Weather they are animated naked children or if they are in the fleash it is and always will be wrong

Let's take a trip down memory lane.

I was 15 years old - If I recall correctly - when I kissed a girl for the first time. She was 16 or 17.

A year later - I saw her naked.

She was a very lovely red head named Nicole DuSang (which, if you know French, is really poetic given her curly red hair). She was also a good friend of mine in High School and I fondly remember her.

So.

Tell me Doug - am I a pedophile for having fond memories of kissing and then getting sexually active with an underage girl when I was also under 18?

Should I blank out ALL memories from my life as a teenager when I thought of how cute my colleages in high school were?

I don't know this woman - haven't talked to her since my first year of college - that was more than ten years ago now.

My ONLY memory of her is from when she was 17.

Is my memory pedophilia?

I hope you realize my question is vastly sarcastic. It is of course not pedophilia, and it would be ridiculous to look at it that way. Just like, if I had an old picture from high school of this girl, and remembered her in a sexual way while looking at that picture - then this does not mean I am a pedophile, child predator or sexual deviant.

This is why it really makes no sense what you're arguing - it takes no account of context, intention and specifics. Ranka is a girl in a work of art. She is cute and sexy and erotic. We can appreciate her beauty JUST LIKE we appreciate the beauty of our high school sweet hearts.

Doesn't make us pedophiles.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Save]

From the official RT site: As a precocious 15 year-old, Lynn Minmei nonetheless becomes one of the most influential figures of the First Robotech War.

YouTube Robotech: The Macross Saga / The Long Wait 8:37 sec in.

Welcome to MW Doug. As you say "You have to watch the animation" so what is this then. HG could have left out the underage nudity and kept the blood for the remastered stuff, so I guess they don't have a problem with it as a corporate entity as they say "Watch Robotech for free (legally) online!".

Also Marlene is shown at least three times in the buff and in the show she goes from larva to human form so see is actually less than a year old.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Save