Battletechnology

[Ginrai]

Hard Science Fiction – which founded the period of the genre known as "The Golden Age" – is as old as the very begining of the 40s: it is usually considered to have begun when John Campbell became the editor in chief of Astounding (now Analog), and this happened in 1939 if memory serves. Although Heinlein's very first published story appeared in this magazine, Starship Trooper is younger of about 20 years (1959): this can hardly be considered as "one of the early examples of hard sci-fi", all the more as the following decade was the reign of the New Wave which rejected the paradigms of Hard SF; for more infos, use "Michael Moorcock" and "New Worlds" as keywords...

Oh fine, you know what I am getting at: Starship Troopers is hard sci-fi, Lensman ain't.

Otherwise, it's common knowledge in the anime community that the most popular mechas of the 70s was undoubtedly Mazinger Z and Getter Robo, followed by some others which it is unnecessary to name: in any case, none of these mechas were close to or even inspired by Starship Trooper, for obvious reasons. I don't doubt the influence of this novel onto Gundam though, but despite all the love I have for this franchise I can't admit it represents the mecha genre as a whole, all the more as it appeared quite some years after Mazinger and, of course, Tetsujin

Right, which is exactly what I said: Starship Troopers inspired the REAL ROBOT type of anime/manga robot, not the SUPER ROBOT. Mazinger Z and Getter Robo are super robots. Gundam is a real robot.

Because of all of the above, and particularly the very first paragraph, I think your previous post was unclear at best or frankly wrong at worst: for this reason, I'll keep thinking that the Starship Trooper novel didn't have as much of a success in Japan as you claim, until I'm proven otherwise – and neither the movie or the OAV are supposed to be taken into account in this discussion, for the simple and good reason that both of them appeared only a long time after the mecha genre was clearly and strongly established

Well, let's see. First, here's an excerpt from the US translations of Tomino's original Gundam novels:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E5U95deDq...ino&f=false

From the introduction by Mark Simmons, "Yoshiyuki Tomino, the director of Mobile Suit Gundam, was a veteran of the anime industry who already had a handful of traditional super robot series to his credit. Tomino's previous entries into the genre had drawn attention for their dramatic flair and unusually harsh storylines, but, even so, Gundam came a bold departure. Inspired by real-world space science, and literary sci-fi like Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers..." Mark Simmons, if you don't know, is pretty much the foremost English-speaking authority on Gundam.

If that's not good enough, see this: http://www.ex.org/4.1/33-book_g2.html

This is an article by Egan Loo talking about the Gundam 20th Anniversary Tribute Magazine from a decade ago. "Nevertheless, the best essay in the first issue is easily Iizuka Masao's recollections on GUNDAM's genesis (as told to Mizutani Tatsuhiko). Ever wonder how Sunrise discovered Robert Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS novel and his influential powered suits? The book was brought to the attention of Sunrise's head by a certain science-fiction fan named Takachiho Haruka—co-founder of Studio Nue and author of CRUSHER JOE and DIRTY PAIR." I assume you know who Egan Loo is.

Here's an excerpt from The science of Anime: mecha-noids and AI-super-bots By Lois H. Gresh, Robert E. Weinberg, "The basic idea of the 'mobile suit' as a weapon came from the high-powered space suits used in the novel Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein." http://books.google.com/books?id=waFSojA3I...iew&f=false

Nearly every comment everywhere on the web and in anime books about the creation of Gundam mentions Starship Troopers, but there's some concrete evidence for you.

If you want more evidence of Starship Troopers' influence in Japan, you can look to the interview on the DVD of the anime version of Toward the Terra, where manga-ka Keiko Takemiya says that Starship Troopers and Cyborg 009 were a big influence on here. You can get the disc and watch the interviews yourself if you want, but one of the reviews here mentions it: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3DGKT4H18QTO1

I also found an interview Matt Alt did with the late Taku Sato, designer and sculptor for Fewture Models. Sato designed Fewture's Getter Robo toys and such. Here's the interview: http://altjapan.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006...first_of_a.html

Sato says, "Studio Nue's illustrations for the Japanese language edition of Robert Heinlein's novel "Starship Troopers" left a deep impression on me as well, and they continue to influence my design work today."

Do I need to keep going? Starship Troopers was a huge influence on the real robot movement of robot manga and anime. Do I have sales figures for the novel's Japanese re-release in the '70s with Miyatake's cover? Of course not, but at the very least, a lot of sci-fi anime/manga creators cite the book as a big influence.

[Penguin]

Oy. B.A.T.T.L.E.T.E.C.H. thread.

To get back on topic: Some news.

To be honest, I'm quite concerned about the MekTek direction. It's turning the MW4 from a playable arcade-ish game into a full blown sim of a 'Mech. Complexity's not always a good thing to have.

From what I understand, this extra stuff MekTek's adding is for multiplayer support. Did they say somewhere that they were changing the mech interface for MW4?

[thegunny]

Ginrai, Gui & co, it's quite easy to start another thread to discuss your totally pointless (from a Battletech perspective) ramblings about who came first, the chicken or the egg starship trooper dissertation.

This thread has been clogged up with way too much crap about law suits and other ramblings and whilst I'm sure you know a lot about the implications of starship troopers and other sci-fi writings in the big picture please take them else where.

[Lynx7725]

From what I understand, this extra stuff MekTek's adding is for multiplayer support. Did they say somewhere that they were changing the mech interface for MW4?

Well, it's more about the older mekpaks which would also be offered free (and necessary for online play). Yes, they did add support for multiplayer, but this is more because Microsoft took down the servers previously used for multiplayer -- more a continuation of support than a new feature.

The mekpaks don't just add mech chassis, they also add new weapons and functionalities. Directional jump jets (look up the Wasp video on it, quite... obscene, in a way), different sensor modes, tarcom improvements (IIRC) -- a LOT of nitty-gritty tech that changes the way you interact with the Mech. And because you want that multiplayer support, you don't have much of a choice but to accept all these.

[Gui]

Ginrai, Gui & co, it's quite easy to start another thread to discuss your totally pointless (from a Battletech perspective) ramblings about who came first, the chicken or the egg starship trooper dissertation.

This thread has been clogged up with way too much crap about law suits and other ramblings and whilst I'm sure you know a lot about the implications of starship troopers and other sci-fi writings in the big picture please take them else where.

You're right: my sincere apologies to everyone

All the more as Ginrai seems to be the sort of guy who doesn't really pay attention to what his interlocutors say, or worse, to what he says himself: this can easily drives insane even the most peaceful of men, particularly on forums...

Parenthesis shut down for me: again, sorry for the "disturbance in the force"

...

What about the Battletech novels? Any interesting stuff?

Only the En Garde : Warrior trilogy is available in my country and I wonder what the specialists in here would recommend as additional readings

[Whamhammer]

You're right: my sincere apologies to everyone

All the more as Ginrai seems to be the sort of guy who doesn't really pay attention to what his interlocutors say, or worse, to what he says himself: this can easily drives insane even the most peaceful of men, particularly on forums...

Parenthesis shut down for me: again, sorry for the "disturbance in the force"

...

What about the Battletech novels? Any interesting stuff?

Only the En Garde : Warrior trilogy is available in my country and I wonder what the specialists in here would recommend as additional readings

The novels give a decent historical breakdown on the happenings in th emidst of the wars. They certainly arent the best works of writing to inhabit the sci-fi genre, you do have to have some suspension of disbelief with the stories at times. The biggest problem is that there are too many different writers with different thoughts on the product and it seems the powers that be didnt work to solidify the Battletech/Mechwarrior concept. Also the biggest travesty is when Michael Stackpole got a chance to write some "Star Wars"Rogue Squadron" novels. He was one of the better writers and did much to present a more logical storyline to the history of Battletech the chracters personalities made sence and worked. When he lead up to his work on "Rogue Squadron" , he tried to make the storyline work with the history by characters acting totally against any rationality to thier background. It was honestly hard to know the characters in the same way anymore. Other writers did good work in later novels, but the damage was done. I havent read any of thier newer works since the "Twilight of the Clans" series (with the exception of Measure of a Hero, I would recommend that one).

[Gui]

Thanks: I'll give it a try

[thegunny]

In a few words; Robert Thurston.

Check out The Legend of the Jade Phoenix 1, 2 & 3 and the follow up titles, I am Jade Falcon, Freebirth & Falcon Rising. The last 2 are part of the Twilight of the Clans series.

The Jade Phoenix Trilogy follows the fortunes of a group of new Jade Falcon mechwarriors and the other 3 titles continue the stories of the lead characters from the Trilogy.

Thurston has IMHO an easier to read style than some of the other authors, especially William Keith Jr who wrote most the Grey Death books who I feel has a tendency to ramble on with too much filler and not enough action.

[Whamhammer]

In a few words; Robert Thurston.

Check out The Legend of the Jade Phoenix 1, 2 & 3 and the follow up titles, I am Jade Falcon, Freebirth & Falcon Rising. The last 2 are part of the Twilight of the Clans series.

The Jade Phoenix Trilogy follows the fortunes of a group of new Jade Falcon mechwarriors and the other 3 titles continue the stories of the lead characters from the Trilogy.

Thurston has IMHO an easier to read style than some of the other authors, especially William Keith Jr who wrote most the Grey Death books who I feel has a tendency to ramble on with too much filler and not enough action.

I agree , I think Thurston did a good job. I'm just having a hard time getting over Stackpoles 180 and Wizkids "just because" history progression (especially the hippie disarmament of one sector of space, especially while the rest of the 'verse fully armed ready and raiding).

[Gui]

OK, I'll give a try to these ones aswell

Thanks for the suggestions

[Wanzerfan]

There were power armor of sorts in SF literature before Starship Troopers, this is true. Lensman is the earliest example I have been able to find. Lensman, however, pretty much invented the space opera and is a very pulpy brand of sci-fi not very concerned with science or reality. Starship Troopers is one of the early examples of hard sci-fi, and among the first to depict power armor in fetishistic mechanical detail and was a big inspiration for Gundam. The mecha designs for the '70s Japanese reissue of the novel (by Miyatake) were a big selling point to the Japanese audience and that is how they directly inspired the real robot movement. Yes, they didn't get around to doing an anime adaption until much later and it was kind of an interesting failure, but that's hardly an indicator of the book's success in Japan.

If there's a sucky movie adaptation of a book does that suddenly mean the book wasn't popular and didn't sell well? Of course not.

Are you referring to the anime (and subsuquent Eternity Comics) or the orignial "Doc" Smith novels? I have most of the novels (I'm missing Spacehounds of the IPC), and in none of the books I've read (I have yet to finish Children of the Lens) there is no mention of mechanized powered armor. There is however a lot of talk of ether, but since the books were written in the 1930's when people had almost absolutely no concept of outer space, there is no suprise there. Little known fact about the anime movie - E. E. "Doc" Smith actually wrote the screenplay.

A lot of works have taken a page from Heinlein's work, incuding Genisis Climber M.O.S.P.E.A.D.A. (the M.O.S.P.E.A.D.A. power armor units), Appleseed (both the Landmate and Gugess {sp.?} armors) and, of course, Battletech (the Clan Elemental armor).

[yellowlightman]

Little known fact about the anime movie - E. E. "Doc" Smith actually wrote the screenplay.

Pretty impressive considering he died 20 years before the anime film was made and probably didn't speak Japanese.

[Ginrai]

I know I'm going to get yelled at for about talking about this, but Lensman talks a LOT about them having suped up space armor, especially in Galactic Patrol (first printed in 1937 according to my copy.

You need to pay more attention to what you are reading. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f...ctic_patrol.jpg or http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kj...cAL._SS500_.jpg Oh look, armor. And no, I am not confusing it for the anime and comic adaptation, which does NOT have the armor.

I just grabbed my book and without much trying found a passage. It's the part where Kim gets the crap shot out of him. In my copy, page 158, "He belted on his personal equipment, including a nullifer, then inspected his armor, checking its supplies and apparatus carefully before he hooked it ready to his hand." He attacks his enemies and turns their home into a "gorily reeking slaughter-pen" (page 161), flies with his armor, uses its built in generators. He get shot up in the armor and almost dies and there's stuff about its "power lead [having been] severed by a bullet" (page 164) that he has to repair.

Does it have the mechanical detail and does it go into great lengths about how it works like Starship Troopers? No. But again, that's why Starship Troopers was so influential to real robots and by extension, so influential to Gundam, which in turned was a big influence on Macross, Dougram, and other shows that Battletech borrowed robots from as well as the obvious connetion with the Elemental. These shows and Battletech as well are obsessed with mechanical detail and explaining how things work, whereas Lensman doesn't care about science, especially pretend science.

I don't know how people here feel about Mech Assault 2, but you play a lot of that game as an elemental, and yes, you can be "on the bounce" ala Starship Troopers. The Elementals also were playable in the old MechWarrior games like Mw2. Like in Starship Troopers, they are just a little bigger than man sized.

Also Spacehounds of IPC is not part of Lensman.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Ginrai

[F-ZeroOne]

There is however a lot of talk of ether, but since the books were written in the 1930's when people had almost absolutely no concept of outer space, there is no suprise there.

I suspect I'm going to get yelled out as well, but support for the ether, or aether, was pretty much destroyed by Einsteins theories, which appeared before the 1930s. However, "Doc" Smith could either have been using it for narrative effect (as Hideki Anno does in Gunbuster) or simply didn't know what he was talking about... Many early experiments with rockets were taking place in the 30s, the Russian scientist Tsiolkovsky had theorised on many aspects of space travel before that (although at the time he was writing he would probably have remained largely unknown outside Russia) and the British Interplanetary Society had published designs for multi-stage rockets and a lunar lander, as well as space suits. However, the BIS was somewhat concerned about the costs of space exploration; why it might cost as much as a million pounds...!

Edited September 27, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[Whamhammer]

You know, I like P.P.C.'s does anyone else like P.P.C.'s???

[thegunny]

You know, I like P.P.C.'s does anyone else like P.P.C.'s???

Nice try but you might as well forget it.

This thread has been well and truly hijacked by the 6000 words of pointless dribble trogs that lurk in the shadows of the interzweb waiting for the slightest opportunity to unleash their mindnumbing dissertations on subjects that they somehow fell are related to the original topic.

There's a picture in the original House Kurita book of a foot soldier sitting down enjoying a swig of saki. It's a wonder someone hasn't started musing over wether or not the saki is warm or cold, what type it is, wether the creases he gets in his pants from sitting down with get him into trouble when he goes on parade or if his saki breath will fog up the gun sight in battle

BTW isn't it just PPC not P.P.C.

[Bariaburu Faita]

hell no, way too much waste heat generated and minimum range limitiation.

multiple medium lasers, plus skillful use of line of sight blocking terrain, is the way to go.

You know, I like P.P.C.'s does anyone else like P.P.C.'s???

Edited September 28, 2009 by Bariaburu Faita

[Wanzerfan]

Okay, time to get this thread back on topic.

What is the current state of the Inner Sphere since the war against the Clans? I suspect that the Draconis Combine is screwed over, but what about the Federated Commonwealth and the other Stellar Balkan states?

Edited September 28, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Gubaba]

Little known fact about the anime movie - E. E. "Doc" Smith actually wrote the screenplay.

Pretty impressive considering he died 20 years before the anime film was made and probably didn't speak Japanese.

Hmmm...y'know, at first, I just thought Wanzerfan was ill-informed (and argumentative about it), but his stream of misinformation was gotten SO ridiculous that I'm pretty sure he's deliberately trolling. A quick Google search indicates that Soji Yoshikawa wrote the movie, and it's well-known that Doc Smith died in the mid-sixties. Hell, Wanzerfan says he has the books...doesn't it say that in the "About the Author" section?

No one could be stupid enough to believe that the Japanese government forbade any likeness of Hikaru Ichijo to made after his voice actor died, especially since there are multiple new images of Hikaru on DVD boxes, magazines, and a pachinko game, but Wanzerfan did assert that as fact.

I can't figure out WHY he's spreading such idiotic and easily-seen-through misinformation, but I'm certain he's doing it on purpose.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[yellowlightman]

No one could be stupid enough

Uh, I'm guessing you're new around here. Welcome to Macross World.

[Gubaba]

Uh, I'm guessing you're new around here. Welcome to Macross World.

Just call me a silly optimist, I guess...

[Whamhammer]

Nice try but you might as well forget it.

This thread has been well and truly hijacked by the 6000 words of pointless dribble trogs that lurk in the shadows of the interzweb waiting for the slightest opportunity to unleash their mindnumbing dissertations on subjects that they somehow fell are related to the original topic.

There's a picture in the original House Kurita book of a foot soldier sitting down enjoying a swig of saki. It's a wonder someone hasn't started musing over wether or not the saki is warm or cold, what type it is, wether the creases he gets in his pants from sitting down with get him into trouble when he goes on parade or if his saki breath will fog up the gun sight in battle

BTW isn't it just PPC not P.P.C.

The full name is Particle Projection Cannon , they're initials, so P.P.C. would be correct.

[Whamhammer]

hell no, way too much waste heat generated and minimum range limitiation.

multiple medium lasers, plus skillful use of line of sight blocking terrain, is the way to go.

I love the medium laser, but you still need to balance out a weapons load to have short and long reaches. Medium lasers wont do much good if you have to make a stretch of open terrain to make it into cover. Sometimes cover isnt as handy as us Inner Sphere jocks like it to be.

[Whamhammer]

Okay, time to get this thread back on topic.

What is the current state of the Inner Sphere since the war against the Clans? I suspect that the Draconis Combine is screwed over, but what about the Federated Commonwealth and the other Stellar Balkan states?

What year would you say current is? Klickytech and its storyline has created a "rubber banding" effect with writers trying to make up the difference (and sence) .

[Chowser]

after the clan war. victor is precentor martial of comstar, omi is dead, but had a son before she was murdered, katherine was given over to clan wolf for clan wolf's agreement not to attack, peter is running the lyran commonwealth, yvonne married tancred sandoval and is running the federated commonwealth. theodore is still in charge of the draconis combine, sun tzu still the cap confed, candace no longer rules the compact because sun tzu reabsorbed it. the fake tom marik still runs the free worlds league. word of blake holds terra.

then word of blake launches their jihad against everyone.

devlin stone pops up and fights word of blake forming the republic around terra. victor married isis and had some kids. victor found out he had a son with omi. yvonne and tancreds kid harrison runs the fed coms until he is accidentally killed by his messed up son jacob. can't remember who runs the other houses. the clans got mixed up a bit as well.

then something happens to alot of the hpgs bringing the dark age about.

i think that's where it is at at the moment. haven't really been keeping up with it.

any word on when mektek is releasing the games???? i really don't feel like digging through some boxes to pull out all the cds.

on that note, good night all. i should be sleeping

[Wanzerfan]

Hmmm...y'know, at first, I just thought Wanzerfan was ill-informed (and argumentative about it), but his stream of misinformation was gotten SO ridiculous that I'm pretty sure he's deliberately trolling. A quick Google search indicates that Soji Yoshikawa wrote the movie, and it's well-known that Doc Smith died in the mid-sixties. Hell, Wanzerfan says he has the books...doesn't it say that in the "About the Author" section?

No one could be stupid enough to believe that the Japanese government forbade any likeness of Hikaru Ichijo to made after his voice actor died, especially since there are multiple new images of Hikaru on DVD boxes, magazines, and a pachinko game, but Wanzerfan did assert that as fact.

I can't figure out WHY he's spreading such idiotic and easily-seen-through misinformation, but I'm certain he's doing it on purpose.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Not obvious. Just stupid assumptions. I just don't trust google is all (I'm just too spoiled on Yahoo, I guess).

And about Lensman, I saw Doc's name in the end credits and just assumed he wrote the screenplay (I thought he was still alive in 1986).

And I'm man enough to earn up to another case of foot in mouth disease.

Besides, contrary to popular belief chummer, I don't have meter-long arms, bony protrutions on my skin, nor horns growing out of my head. I wouldn't mind sporting some retractable spurs, though .

Edited September 28, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

hell no, way too much waste heat generated and minimum range limitiation.

multiple medium lasers, plus skillful use of line of sight blocking terrain, is the way to go.

Bah! You lot of Atavistic Level 1 techies. My Clan ERPPC says 'Nyah! Nyah! Freebirth Apes!'

[Wanzerfan]

Bah! You lot of Atavistic Level 1 techies. My Clan ERPPC says 'Nyah! Nyah! Freebirth Apes!'

Is that before or after an Inner Sphere Marauder IIc decides to give you a PPC enima?

[Zentrandude]

Is that before or after an Inner Sphere Marauder IIc decides to give you a PPC enima?

meh clan remakes of star league mechs still no match for an omnimech, thats why you belong with the rest of the 2nd line garrison.

[Lynx7725]

To bring things back to a more rational discussion rather than wang-waving...

Why, for the love of Kerensky?

[Whamhammer]

after the clan war. victor is precentor martial of comstar, omi is dead, but had a son before she was murdered, katherine was given over to clan wolf for clan wolf's agreement not to attack, peter is running the lyran commonwealth, yvonne married tancred sandoval and is running the federated commonwealth. theodore is still in charge of the draconis combine, sun tzu still the cap confed, candace no longer rules the compact because sun tzu reabsorbed it. the fake tom marik still runs the free worlds league. word of blake holds terra.

then word of blake launches their jihad against everyone.

devlin stone pops up and fights word of blake forming the republic around terra. victor married isis and had some kids. victor found out he had a son with omi. yvonne and tancreds kid harrison runs the fed coms until he is accidentally killed by his messed up son jacob. can't remember who runs the other houses. the clans got mixed up a bit as well.

then something happens to alot of the hpgs bringing the dark age about.

i think that's where it is at at the moment. haven't really been keeping up with it.

any word on when mektek is releasing the games???? i really don't feel like digging through some boxes to pull out all the cds.

on that note, good night all. i should be sleeping

Only problem with that is (if memory recollects correctly) there was a novell after Klickytech happened that has Omi assasinated before Omi had any children (kinda hard to hide the Co-ordinators "in plain sight" daughters pregnancy). .

[Whamhammer]

Hmmm...y'know, at first, I just thought Wanzerfan was ill-informed (and argumentative about it), but his stream of misinformation was gotten SO ridiculous that I'm pretty sure he's deliberately trolling. A quick Google search indicates that Soji Yoshikawa wrote the movie, and it's well-known that Doc Smith died in the mid-sixties. Hell, Wanzerfan says he has the books...doesn't it say that in the "About the Author" section?

No one could be stupid enough to believe that the Japanese government forbade any likeness of Hikaru Ichijo to made after his voice actor died, especially since there are multiple new images of Hikaru on DVD boxes, magazines, and a pachinko game, but Wanzerfan did assert that as fact.

I can't figure out WHY he's spreading such idiotic and easily-seen-through misinformation, but I'm certain he's doing it on purpose.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Easy now.........

[Cent]

Mech Movie is back.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/29/source-m...sners-tornante/

[Whamhammer]

Mech Movie is back.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/29/source-m...sners-tornante/

Malfing Klickygarbage!!!!

[RedWolf]

Eisner? As in the ex-tyrant king of the Disney Empire?! He owns Battletech and Mechwarrior?!

Suddenly I almost pity Harmony Gold. (Well not really more like hoping Eisner mess them up.)

Oh yeah anybody with an image of a Caspar?

I'm curious as to what is essentially a space Bolo.